ABC/facebook New Hampshire Rep/Dem Debates tonight: OPEN THREAD

The Land of Moo ( http://marilynm.vox.com/ )

Co-Founder of Bloggers for Darfur ( http://bloggersfordarfur.blogspot.com )

I couldn't stay awake through the Dem debate on the broadcast. I suppose it was because I was watching it in bed and trying to sit through the first half which I'd already seen on the live feed.

re my earlier comment about Hillary looking ticked off from the first time they showed her in her seat.. I saw on the broadcast something I hadn't seen on the live feed...and that was George S. telling Diane that "the Clintons are LIVID" with Richardson because they believe he brokered a deal to give Obama his second-round votes in Iowa. Have no idea if she was emanating anger at Richardson when she was sitting there. I mentioned that impression earlier because I know as an old-school feminist that a woman has it doubly hard in this situation, and in other appearances I've seen her smile a lot. (She was all smiles after getting drubbed in Iowa.) I thought her demeanor last night wasn't helping her...and I'm saying that despite the fact that I don't like or trust her.

I enjoyed reading everyone's viewpoints. Thanks for these threads.

The Land of Moo ( http://marilynm.vox.com/ )

Co-Founder of Bloggers for Darfur ( http://bloggersfordarfur.blogspot.com )

accusing john edwards of causing that girl's death? that was a very low blow, esp since it was george w. bush who killed that bill.

Stefania Pomponi Butler

I blog:
CityMama ( http://citymama.typepad.com )
Kimchi Mamas ( http://kimchimamas.typepad.com )
MOMocrats ( http://momocrats.typepad.com )

It was like Obama set him up and he just went to TOWN.

Hubby believes they pre-planned this strategy.

Politics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain ( http://queenofspainblog.com/ )

I think he liked being able to talk about that while the others were fighting among themselves (until the WMUR guy told him he'd screwed up energy then, so what was with the big talk???? ;))

Laurie
LaurieWrites ( http://lauriewrites.typepad.com )

He was spot-on with all his points and definitely put her on the defensive...which isn't a good look for her.

Stefania Pomponi Butler

I blog:
CityMama ( http://citymama.typepad.com )
Kimchi Mamas ( http://kimchimamas.typepad.com )
MOMocrats ( http://momocrats.typepad.com )

But then again, I thought she had the Howard/Smiley debate in the bag when I watched that one. I've been told by many people that I'm missing the fatal flaw here, but I'm taken in by brain power and specifics, I guess (What I get for being so abstract myself I guess. ; ) )

Laurie
LaurieWrites ( http://lauriewrites.typepad.com )

I read a story once by a journalist covering Bush in Crawford, who said a neighbor there said, "I love hanging out with him, but would I want him running my country? No."

I've since read other reports that say similar things. But it does become a popularity/personality contest on some level. Human beings respond to those kinds of impressions. Let's just hope we hit a double bonus in 2008.

Laurie
LaurieWrites ( http://lauriewrites.typepad.com )

I thought she did a nice job with bringing that back to specifics. Overall, it was one of the most interesting conversations I've ever seen in a debate and that's saying something.

"I love change."
"No, I love change more."
"What kind of change are we talking about?"

And on and on and on...And all I kept thinking was, if I could get a magic answer as to which one of you could broker some REAL, COOL change (hi Little River Band...) I would vote for you right now.

Laurie
LaurieWrites ( http://lauriewrites.typepad.com )

The only mention of environment was Richardson loving all over Al Gore for a sec there. ; )

Laurie
LaurieWrites ( http://lauriewrites.typepad.com )

I might sound like a sourpuss because I was a Biden-Dodd person, and Richardson now is my favorite, but I'm realistic and don't expect him to get the nomination.

Sure, there are differences between Edwards, Obama and Clinton, but even tonight, those differences, compared to the overall differences between the remaining Dem candidates and all the remaining GOP candidates seems so much bigger and obvious and more important, I am, for the first time, thinking more about electability than anything else.

What do people really feel/believe when it comes to that?

Jill
Writes Like She Talks ( http://www.writeslikeshetalks.blogspot.com )

Just watched the Republican debate in entirety...a few random thoughts...

Huckabee - wouldn't brag so much if I were him about how much he supports Bush - trotted out "endowed by creator" line (damn you, founding fathers!)...just wish Christians in this country didn't think they get to define that word for all of us...like that Charlie called him on his whole "we change our policies depending on the situation" thing...he was the only one (well, McCain a little bit) who brought up prevention vs. intervention in health care...I almost laughed when he said illegals should get back to their country(ies) on their own--on FOOT??..."sanctity of life"...scary to me...he sure made Obama's case for him though...

Bush - thought it was ironic that they tossed to Bush at press conference talking about any candidate needing a firm set of principles...granted, he didn't say they had to be GOOD principles...

Romney - kissing up to those pharmaceutical lobbyists big-time...yeah, Mitt, YOU're the candidate of change...

Giuliani - I'd forgotten he does that thing with his eyes...vertical shiftiness...I just don't like him - didn't like when he was asked what he stood for and he started rattling off policy points...thought it was weird that he implied Canadians come here for health care--since I thought we go there for meds...nuclear, nuclear, nuclear (power)...(at least he pronounces it correctly)...

Paul - I know nothing about him...is it true or urban myth that he's anti-evolution?...pointing out appropriately that young people are turning out for him and Obama in large numbers...

McCain - wish he'd kept it positive...didn't need to throw barbs at Romney--Mitt was doing himself in just fine...

Thompson - sorry, fred, did we wake you?...Obama's for all those damn liberal groups...you know, like educators...did I misunderstand or did he tell the WMUR moderator he doesn't care about oil prices?

all - jeez-louise, what's up the deification of Reagan?...so tired of hearing that name (but then I remember his governor years)...

Okay, off to watch the Dems now...

The Land of Moo ( http://marilynm.vox.com/ )

Co-Founder of Bloggers for Darfur ( http://bloggersfordarfur.blogspot.com )

...and from the kitchen says, "GEEZ, how many times are they going to say 'Ronald Reagan?'"

Politics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain ( http://queenofspainblog.com/ )

And I think it's so interesting that "entrenched" special interests are STILL huge in Dem debates- very similar conversations as in 2004. ExxonMobil laso had the biggest profits, I think, during the debate in 2004.

I'm upset the conversation isn't more new. A lot has changed since 2004. Not enough to discuss special interests.

Where is the environment? Mortgage crisis?

The thing that I think is the worst, and Obama is discussing it now: Republicans don't talk about social issues, although they did a bit more tonight. They talk about immigration...

Was inequality mentioned once during the Rep debate? Environment (once, by McCain, I think). The struggles of the middle class?

The binary nature is tired. As long as it's only Edwards drumming on about the "mill"- nothing will change. My 2 cents for now.

Watching Repubs on WC feed and man are they all jumping on Ron Paul. ..and finding the Gibson mentioning he promised all candidate's people he wouldn't ask questions via video tape interesting. They have SUCH youtube-phobia!

Politics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain ( http://queenofspainblog.com/ )

Especially when he was talking so passionately about his grandparents working in the "meal." I think he meant "mill." Sorry, couldn't help making fun of his accent. But he had me convinced of his commitment and his desire to work for people like his grandparents.

Hillary then burst his bubble when she pointed out that the Patient's BIl Of Rights never passed! I was very impressed with how skillfully she did that and I liked her straight talk.

And I wish Charles Gibson had pushed harder about that business of lobbyists not being able to buy elected officials sit down meals. Now what they do is they throw huge, lavish cocktail parties instead and schmooze the politicians that way. That's what Gibson meant about them eating standing up.

Megan
Megan’s Minute ( http://www.megansminute.com )

To that point, Obama is the strongest (IMHO) on net neutrality

Obama asserted that change comes about when you invite citizens into the policy-making process, and make government transparent. That's analogous to the principles of Web 2.0 -- less about publishing, more about community-building.

Richardson: "I'm the only one who has had the highest National Security clearance." -- and Clinton picks up her pen --

Richardson's got to love the fact that he gets to talk about his accomplishments as a governor and cabinet secretary.

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor ( http://www.blogher.com/blog/kim-pearson )|Professor Kim ( http://professorkim.blogspot.com )|

Yep it's silly like an episode of survivor - Edwards is trying to form an alliance with Obama so that it's a race between the two of them but Obama is ignoring him.

On the Republican side Huckabee and McCain are teaming up (explicitly) against
Romney so they can knock him out and then fight among themselves to keep their torch lit.

Many of us feel that Obama IS the one who can do the job well. Don't like Hillary's partisanship. Although, I have to be honest--I'm STILL not clear what 'experience' Hillary's referring to when she trots out that line. Has she really been a Senator THAT much longer than Barack?

The Land of Moo ( http://marilynm.vox.com/ )

Co-Founder of Bloggers for Darfur ( http://bloggersfordarfur.blogspot.com )

Moderator to Clinton: You are seen as more experienced, but Obama is more well-liked...

Clinton could have sealed that by pointing out that Bush was seen as well-liked, without a lot of experience when he was a candidate. Look where that got us.

It scares me that people would vote for someone based on if they'd like to have a drink with them versus voting for someone based on the belief that they could do the job well.

(Not saying Obama couldn't do the job well. Just pointing out the insanity of judging candidates as being "well-liked".)

Christina
A Mommy Story ( http://amommystory.blogspot.com )

Am now undecided after being very pro-Hillary. But I like her so much tonight. She brought SCHIP to life. She would be the first woman president. She works so hard.

I want her to keep fighting til Tuesday, to keep showing this side of her.

Although this debate is a little meandering, so who know who is really saying what.

Hillary wins on experience, having done things, and being competent. Obama wins when he speaks, when he convinces us he IS the one, the only, agent of change. It's very hard to decide. Dare I say it: head, or heart. Yuck.

For those of us on the West Coast just now tuning in: keep this amazing discussion going!

Politics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain ( http://queenofspainblog.com/ )

Jumping off live feed and switching on ABC to watch first part of Republican debate that I missed...will catch end of Democratic one on the tape delay...

The Land of Moo ( http://marilynm.vox.com/ )

Co-Founder of Bloggers for Darfur ( http://bloggersfordarfur.blogspot.com )

Yeah, that kind of made Edwards look silly from where I sit.

Laurie
LaurieWrites ( http://lauriewrites.typepad.com )

I think they all do, in their own special, politically-driven way.

Laurie
LaurieWrites ( http://lauriewrites.typepad.com )

Makes them sound pretty silly, doesn't it?

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor ( http://www.blogher.com/blog/kim-pearson )|Professor Kim ( http://professorkim.blogspot.com )|

I don't think she looks pissed. I think she looks tired. Can imagine they all are. And making it a lovefest kind of defeats the point.

I want to be much more impressed by Obama than I am.

And Professor Kim, I'm with you - I was an early Hillary supporter and have since gone to the land of the undecided, where I remain. Say what they will about her - she kind of knows what's up. I also believe that as much as people trash her for things relevant and not to this whole thing, she can afford to be a little feisty.

Again, not making a call, just sayin'. ;)

Laurie
LaurieWrites ( http://lauriewrites.typepad.com )

Edwards on Hillary's change message: "I didn't hear these kinds of comments from Senator Clinton when she was ahead..."

And then Hillary gets angry. I loved it. She effectively pointed out that she had made laws, not just talked about change. Keep it up.

Richardson: is change a leper? I love change though (Hillary please make me your VP)

"Change" might be the "reformer" of this primary cycle...

and now, onto Iraq. Gibson: Are any of you ready to say the surge has worked?
Clinton: surge is nothing without political reconciliation. That didn't happen....troops should come home.

Obama: Bar has become so low we've lost perspective on what should have been our national interest. We never should have gone in...back where we started 2 years ago at too high a cost. Need a phased redeployment to send a clear signal to Iraqi Govt: we won't be there in perpetuity.

Negative reaction from voters - Clinton needs a different message

Clinton accuses Obama of saying one thing and doing another"You said you would vote against the PATRIOT ACT, and you voted for it. You said you would vote against the war and you voted for it." Obama doesn't respond directly to that, but says Clinton distorted his health care plan. Now Edwards is calling Clinton the "forces of the status quo."

Clinton: "What we need is someone who can deliver change."

Richardson:"I've been in hostage negotiations that are a lot more civil than this."

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor ( http://www.blogher.com/blog/kim-pearson )|Professor Kim ( http://professorkim.blogspot.com )|

Biggest negatives so far on Clinton accusing Obama of flip flopping

And interesting to see Edwards attacking Clinton for attacking Obama for attacking Edwards - oh the posturing!

Sorry, I know that's snarky...but I happen to believe that the Clintons play dirty...

The Land of Moo ( http://marilynm.vox.com/ )

Co-Founder of Bloggers for Darfur ( http://bloggersfordarfur.blogspot.com )

Oh, SNAP, John Edwards (to Hillary!) :)

The Land of Moo ( http://marilynm.vox.com/ )

Co-Founder of Bloggers for Darfur ( http://bloggersfordarfur.blogspot.com )

They are going at it.

Hillary: we are all advocating for change. We all want to get rid of Bush. But you don't make change by just calling for it...hard work.

Clinton says Obama not consistent on health care...Obama says, check out the AP.

And then Clinton to Obama: you stop short of going the distance for those who need health care....changes his positions on many issues.

Have you noticed it's "John" tonight- not Senator Edwards? Are Obama and Clinton condescending?

She never 100% "had" me...but I was hoping she would say something that would make me want to vote for her. But, to answer your question...Yes, she lost me. I will not be voting for her in the primaries. However, if she is the Democratic nominee I will support her.

Contributing Editor Catherine Morgan
also at CatherineBlogs.com ( http://www.catherineblogs.com/ ) and The Political Voices of Women ( http://politicsanew.com/ )

Is it just me, or does Hillary look pissed...ever since she sat down? I don't see how that look she has tonight is going to serve her well. I can't read the look...does she think the debate process is beneath her? Does she resent being in the 4th seat? Anybody else perceive it that way?

The Land of Moo ( http://marilynm.vox.com/ )

Co-Founder of Bloggers for Darfur ( http://bloggersfordarfur.blogspot.com )

here ( http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/0... )

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor ( http://www.blogher.com/blog/kim-pearson )|Professor Kim ( http://professorkim.blogspot.com )|

If you mind saying- I'm curious.

Wonder how much people making the inane comments on FB even understand the discussion taking place here. By the way, this discussion is a like a grad school seminar, while the Republican panel had the tenor of a barroom argument. No one has called anyone else a liar or smirked (as Romney did) while his or her opponents make their points.

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor ( http://www.blogher.com/blog/kim-pearson )|Professor Kim ( http://professorkim.blogspot.com )|

Kim, I agree--I liked her response on the first go-round of that issue.

The Land of Moo ( http://marilynm.vox.com/ )

Co-Founder of Bloggers for Darfur ( http://bloggersfordarfur.blogspot.com )

Facebook creeps me out--deactivated my acct awhile back. Sorry to hear that's the level it's stooped to.

The Land of Moo ( http://marilynm.vox.com/ )

Co-Founder of Bloggers for Darfur ( http://bloggersfordarfur.blogspot.com )

That's where all the media and pundits rush to after the debate to give soundbites. It's in the gym at the college- ABC has managed to build a nice set around it.
"Spinning" for the Republicans:
Ron Paul's son, Rand Paul. A little lonely.

Protectionist Tom Tancredo stumping for Romney. That is a big yuck to me. Why would Romney identify with such an extremist? Immigration vote, I guess.
Bay Buchanan (Pat's sister) also for Romney

Sen. Lindsey Graham spinning for McCain, very popular...

and Joe Scarborough was the big celebrity on the scene, not on duty as a reporter I think, just taking it in.

You have to give Hillary Clinton credit. She knows her stuff. Her response to Richardson that Musharraf is an elected official who can't just be pushed out of office by the US without compromising the integrity of their electoral process was a good one. Also, she was the only one who mentioned Pakistan's fear of a possible attack from India.

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor ( http://www.blogher.com/blog/kim-pearson )|Professor Kim ( http://professorkim.blogspot.com )|

someone ( http://www.facebook.com/politics/messages.php ) wrote they were thinking "they understand why Bill hooked up with Monica" and the Barack is a Muslim smear. Yuck. I don't think they are archiving though...

And the Republican debate just ended. Depressing night for tv in DC.

When it ended I just went "eh." Cannot abide Mitt Romney or Mike Huckabee, either one. And who else is in this from this side?

The bipartisan confab at the end was interesting. I'm just looking for some inspiration here, people. And maybe someone who seems like a capable leader. So far, not feeling either.

Thanks for the coverage Morra, I love when you're on the scene. : )

Laurie
LaurieWrites ( http://lauriewrites.typepad.com )

His silence during the foreign policy and immigration discussion underscored what his own aide acknowledged the other day -- that Huckabee has no real foreign policy credentials.

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor ( http://www.blogher.com/blog/kim-pearson )|Professor Kim ( http://professorkim.blogspot.com )|

http://www.wmur.com/video/14986142/index.html

Did anyone else hear Hillary go on about a possible terrorist attack after the elections...and that she is the only one who could handle something like that?? (It was on CNN earlier today).

She totally lost me at that moment.

Contributing Editor Catherine Morgan
also at CatherineBlogs.com ( http://www.catherineblogs.com/ ) and The Political Voices of Women ( http://politicsanew.com/ )

Not to mention it took me forever to give up trying to make it work on Firefox and moved over to IE. Glad to see the discussion going on here and I hope to catch the Repubs on the West Coast feed here in an hour.

Politics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain ( http://queenofspainblog.com/ )