with the idea that anyone who has sex "without commitment" has no self-respect, let alone the implication that all abortion is a tool only of promiscuous single women.

Your attack on women themselves as opposed to the procedure is misguided and your assumptions are flawed.  

Mom-101

The issue is not whether abortion is barbaric. That is your opinion. You may hold it passionately, and your strength of feeling for what you believe is right is admirable. But this is the real issue:

It is whether you can make that decision for me.

Whether you can take that option away from me

Because of what you believe - and nevermind what I believe. Nevermind what I believe strongly and pasionately to be right.  My opinion does not count.

You get to make that decision based on your own beliefs on my behalf, or on the behalf of any other woman for who is put into the position where she has to decide whether or not to have an abortion.

You take the choice away.

That is the issue.

I am sorry to hear it. I think sex without commitment is sad and yes, those who engage in it demean themselves.

I do not mean to imply that it is only a "tool" of single women. Of course married women abort as well--but they presumably have less incentive to do so.

My paramount goal is to defend innocent life.

Adults usually are accountable for their actions--why should this be any different?

Sterile language. The "procedure" snuffs out life. Can't get around it. 

Ah. But what choice does the baby have?

 Who speaks for the child?

You take the choice away.

And for the baby it means her death. 

"Put in a position"

Everyone has a choice about that too. 

I see liberals defend animals, trees and choices, but not babies. Makes no sense. 

<a href="http://wakingsophie.com>Waking Sophie</a>

To say that every woman has a choice about being put in a position where she might consider abortion.

Women who become pregnant because of rape have no choice.

Children who become pregnant because of rape have no choice.

Women who discover at their first ultrasound that the fetus they are happily and willfully carrying has no brain, or has a horrible condition that will result in certain painful death, didn't choose to be put in that position.

Women who are carrying multiples and discover that they may have to choose to abort one to save the others DID NOT CHOOSE to be put in that position.

A married woman who is already a mother of four who finds out that she is pregnant a month after her cheating husband left her, or a month after her family lost their home in a fire, or a month after both parents were laid off.

A woman who finds out she has a health condition that will force her to choose between her own life and carrying to term.

These women did not CHOOSE to be put in those positions.

Say what you want about abortion itself, but DO NOT claim that every woman facing a difficult choice put herself in that position. Not only is that demeaning and insulting to literally thousands of women who are suffering terribly RIGHT NOW, it is also dangerously naive.

But I'm still pro-choice. And not because I'm a heartless monster that supports murder and barbarism, although maybe I am because I do...

But my reasoning for being pro-choice is I don't think it's my place to tell another woman what she can or cannot do with her body or anything directly dependent on it. Whether that be aborting a child or removing a tumor. And adoption will become a feasible alternative when the millions of children already needing homes find them. Until then - let's deal with the surplus of unwanted and unloved kids that we already have in the world. 

(And yes, yes I did just compare a fetus to a tumor.)

- Maria

http://immoralmatriarch.com

the mother speaks for her own child. She gets to decide if the responsible thing would be for this child to live or not. For all the reasons that jaelithe lists and may more. The mother speaks for her own child. Sometimes a decision is not easy. Sometimes there is not a right choice, or an easy choice. But she is the one who will speak for her own child. Not you - whether or not you like what these mothers decide.  They will have to live with their choice - the consequences of the abortion, or the consequences of not aborting.

 after they are born. Which is when so many conservatives say "you are on your own."

 BTW, I'm one of those women whose health/life would be threatened by pregnancy, and it always burns me that "pro-lifers" have no value for my life.

-Lisse

@ Home in the World

Oh, if only it weren't for the radical feminists and filthy liberals brainwashing us women folk, we'd be free to embrace our natural position in the world as lean, mean, reproducin' machines.

Puh-leaze.

Your post is naive and ridiculous, implying that it's those dirty heathens and hedonists who cap off a night of drinking and debauchery with an abortion (although I'm sure if the dirty heathens and hedonists were reproducing at an alarming rate, your post would be about what terrible influences they are on their children).

I've been married for 3 years. My husband and I dated for 12 years before that, starting in our sophomore year of high school. We're about as boring, stable and committed as a couple can be (especially for dirty heathens).

We do not like kids. We barely tolerate most adults. The thought of selfishly bringing another person into the world, a world I'm trying to get by in the best I can given the stupidity and ignorance that run rampant, turns my stomach. It's not merely the fact I don't want to be a parent or ruin my girlish figure, it's that I'm morally and ethically opposed to personally adding to the population. And why should an embryo take precedence over that?

Good point, Sarah C., thank you. It just points out the ethical inconsistency of the pro-abortion arguements.

As to the other comments, as I said above, I am not absolutely opposed to abortion for any reason. Rape and incest are even more horrifying than abortion. And the life of the mother, if at risk of her dying, takes precedence over that of her baby, unless she chooses to save her baby first.

Women do suffer natural miscarriages, and of course they should be given every care to ensure there is nothing left inside to harm them. And of course there are instances where the baby may not survive the birth.  But at least give them the chance. I find it quite ironic this talk of painful death. What do you think happens when they are chopped up or a scissors is inserted in their skull to suck ther brains out?

I don't think people should play God with other's lives. If you can't cope, there are alternatives.

A fetus as a tumor, birth as a disease, motherhood as an affliction, life as ? 

If feminists are concerned about dealing with unwanted children needing adoption, why not  make that their cause? Why not expend as much passion and energy on that? But no.

Sex has consequences. 

If feminists are concerned about dealing with unwanted children needing adoption, why not  make that their cause? Why not expend as much passion and energy on that? But no.

And wrong.

 -Lisse

@ Home in the World

"Mommy, why did you and Daddy have me?"

Well, honey, you were a punishment for engaging in behavior that a vocal minority found morally repugnant but for whom there were no direct or indirect consequences.

"So, you didn't want me?"

Of course not, dear. That's why we were using birth control, but sometimes accidents happen.

"I was an accident?"

Yes, honey. An accident and a punishment. Sweet dreams!

That is a ridiculous thing to say. Why is it ok to kill a baby when it is in the body and not when comes out? If it is the mother's right to decide if a child lives or not, why can't she kill the baby if it keeps her up all night, or when it is teething?

God creates life, not woman. God should have the final say whether a baby lives or not. That is why we punish murders, at least of adults and some children.

Waking Sophie

And how many of these unwanted children have you adoted or fostered?

Isn't just as cruel and barbaric to let some of these "babies" be born in to poverty and abuse?

There are thousands  of children in the system, in dumpsters, and in abusive homes because they were unwanted.

Most of the protesters I see are white middleclass women who probably have the resources to be able to have an unwanted child, who don't come from at risk neighborhoods and families. I often wonder how many of them put thier own money into running group homes or have adopted these kids.

It's the same people who want to take away sex education in schools and birth control options to teenagers. Sure they should'nt be having sex and the parents "should" be teaching the kids at home, but that is not reality. You can't have it both ways.

You want to stop it ? Then start educating and stop preaching. The time and money spent are more productive then taking away the CHOICES we have now.

People are not going to stop having sex just because they can longer have an abortion.

to hear about your site Lisse.

That is ironic that you say that. " IT is not someones choice to decide if my life is worth while"

Then why do you think it is your choice to decide if others can or cannot have an abortion?

I disagree 10000000%

And I welcome you, and your heck of a first week of posting, here at BlogHer.

:)

Politics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain

It's a very good morning:)

Yes having an abortion is likened to child molesting.  lol

However you came to that conclusion is beyond me. I neither said I was for or completly against it. I'm just eally tired of do-gooders pushing their thoughts upon everyone else. It has done alot more harm then good

If we worked harder on education, then we probably would not have force others into doing what is right. I can't possibly imagine the wasted tax money you guys feel free to spend on taking more and more rights and choices away.

Like I said how many adopted and or foster kids do you have? If you had to pay all the legal fees involved would you still do it?

Kind of a vicious circle isn't it, some have an abortion cause they can not afford another child, because the cost of living is outrages, education gets huge cut-backs because of wasted tax money.  Wasted tax money spent in making laws based on other people opinions on how we should live. 

I am a moral person. I have strong values. I am a feminist. I spent my career working to help low income children and families access housing and quality care and education, two basic needs. I'm happily married, financially secure, and I don't want children for a variety of reasons that are my business and not yours, Pope Benedict's, President Bush's, Randall Terry's, Waking Sophie's, or the Lubavitch Rebbe's.

(Incidentally, if you want to bring science and reason into this, you are not "killing a baby" with abortion. But just as I believe that women are people with rights that supersede those of an embryo or fetus. Let's use scientifically accurate terms here, because medically speaking, the stages of prenatal development are as follows: up to the 10th week of gestation, women carry an embryo; after 11 weeks of gestation, it is called a fetus. Most abortions take place before the 8th week of gestation, during the embryonic stage - before there is even a developed nervous system, and a full 90% are done before the end of the first trimester. There are no "babies," but it doesn't sound as catchy to call someone an "embryo killer," does it? Babies and women think and feel pain. Embryos and fetuses do not. They are not the same.)

I will not force you to live by my religious views, morals, and values. You do not have the right to force anyone to live by yours. At the end of the day, there is no absolute answer on abortion. It is a debate entirely fueled by religion, and even there we find much disagreement. The Religious Coalition for Choice represents clergy and lay folk from different denominations who disagree with you. The Catholic Church has even changed its position. (Prior to the Victorian age, it was no problem to get an abortion before what was called "quickening." Guess what? That's when 90% of abortions take place. What changed? The need to control women.)

That's what this is about control - telling other people what they should believe and how they should live their lives. If you believe it is murder based on your values system, I can respect your belief. I can understand why you would encourage other women not to have one. But you do not have a right to essentially call me a selfish slut and force me to live under your moral code demonstrates how little regard "pro-life" people generally have for the complexities of human life, which go beyond merely breathing.

Suzanne Reisman, Contributing Editor - Feminism & Gender
Campaign for Unshaved Snatch (CUSS) & Other Rants

Ok well then someone please tell me, if we are not suppose to push our morals or beliefs on others, why have laws at all? Shouldn't we all just do what we want? Sounds great, now that's a society I want to live in!

I really think the one person who hasn't spoken up on this thread, and is really in the best position to give an "opinion" is the woman who has had an abortion.

I have had one and I can say in all honesty that abortion is barbaric.  It is legal infanticide.  I was 21 when I had mine and very few days go by that I don't think of the child I chose not to have.  I regret wholeheartedly the decision I made... felt forced to make by society and the baby's father.  I was in a committed relationship.  I was engaged.  (Needless to say, the relationship didn't survive.)  I will live with the guilt and shame of my decision for the rest of my life.  I will quietly and privately grieve for my child.

People say there isn't a stigma involved any longer with being a single mom.  To that I say bull.  The pro-choice side would have you believe that you're foolish to be a single mom with the "options" that are out there.  Why would anyone "choose" that hard path?  Why would you "choose" to put yourself in that position? 

 The pro-life side, for all its chanting and shouting about morality and "choosing life" does little to help when a woman does choose to have the child.  If she's not in a financial position to care for the baby (for example, I was a full-time college student only working part time), where is the help? 

To both sides, I say where is the aftercare?  Pro-choice:  Where is the counseling and support for the woman who does have an abortion.  When will the stigma of being one of "those" women subside.  Pro-Life:  Where is the support and care for me when I have my child?  Where do I go for help and support to get affordable child care, diapers, etc.?  It is really a no-win situation.

I am a Christian.  I do believe that abortion is wrong now and given the opportunity again would make different decisions.  I don't believe that overturning Roe V. Wade is wrong.  I think it should be overturned.  I am not naive enough to think that overturning that Supreme Court decision will mean the end of abortions in America.  I don't even think it will send them to back alleys.  I don't believe there is an easy answer and I don't believe there should be.  If killing unborn babies becomes easy, I fear for our nation.

Edited to add:  I also wanted to say, that I know there are times when abortions are necessary.  I don't believe they should be outright banned, but the use of them as birth control needs to stop.