Let's get my answer out of the way quickly. I don't think I want to be marriage material right now. I'm not in a bendable phase of life. Emphasis is on the "right now." Maybe one day ... but, if I put any credence into numerology, then I may never be marriage material. It's possible I never was deep down. My number is "One."
As a divorced woman of 48, who has had two men talk to her seriously about marriage since her divorce, who struggles financially, and who has sexual needs but who wouldn't do well a in a casual affair, I'm sometimes introspective about the whole marriage thing. But for me, the marriage question is not a dating advice matter. It's a "who am I at this moment?" question, because I was married for 23 years.
Friends, both male and female, have accused me of being afraid of marriage because my first one ended so badly. They say I'm still smarting from the hellish divorce. Could be. I sort of get the shivers when I read passages like the following from a MidlifeBloggers.com post entitled " How Can You Tell the Difference between a midlife crisis and shaking the dust from your feet?"
I also have the wonderful example of my mother. She’s 76. Two years ago she married a guy she met on an internet dating site. They’d known each other six weeks and decided to take a trip to his native Alaska, and while they were there they thought they might just as well get hitched. I asked her, tentatively, did she not think it was a bit sudden and she answered, We’re both 74, what are we waiting for? (source)
Her post is not about getting married, but I focused on this woman, her mother, remarrying at 74.
Also, I have a friend who told me about her mother, who's about five years older than I am. She said that her mom met and married her second and current husband a few years ago. I didn't like the sound of that at all. I've even heard of some BlogHer members over 40 who've remarried. When I hear of these nuptials I think good for them! But the thought also crosses my mind, you mean I'm not safe yet? Somebody could still roll up and want to get married?
At other times I wonder what's wrong with me that I have no desire to be one half of a twosome.
At Black Women, Blow the Trumpet, Lisa Vasquez has a provocative discussion about African-American men and women and the spouse shortage. She began her post with a phone conversation she had with an ex-boyfriend who's now married who told her that he thought she didn't want to be married. Like me, she went trolling through her soul after hearing the statement, and that resulted in her writing a post on the subject that includes what women say, what men say, and a series of questions for other women regarding their views of marriage.
At the post she has the following list of what she reports men tell ministers will make a woman unsuitable for marriage.
Which factors would deem a woman less desirable as a marital partner?
Women who have unresolved anger towards their fathers or towards men.
Women who are domineering and critical. Women who have control issues.
Women who have low self esteem and are deeply insecure and emotionally-needy.
Women who have been sexually violated or physically abused in childhood or in adulthood. (Those who have not thoroughly worked through their survivorship issues.)
Women who are self-centered.
Women who have siblings and mothers who are allowed to meddle in their lives.
Women who are too attached emotionally to having family validation and approval.
Women who were forced to grow up too soon.
Women who have managed their lives poorly.
Women who have never seen positive, healthy examples of solid marriages.
Women whose parents had an exploitative, abusive or imbalanced relationship. (Those who have not addressed the wounds and negative expectations that resulted from it.)
Women who have not learned how to have friendships with men.
Women who are career-obsessed.
Women who do not get along with their future in laws. (Read more at African-American men and women and the spouse shortageBlack Women, Blow the Trumpet)
The list at BWBTT is much longer than the list the dating guy gives at AskMen, where I also found one man's answer to be right on target about marriage readiness.
Carl - Accountant, 38 "Having already been married once, I want a woman that communicates and can work out problems." Since the married life is not all about good times, he wants a wife that matches his character. Like any other project in life, he believes that a marriage should be worked through and constantly perfected. "The flipside," says Carl, "is that if you don't keep at it, you'll end up in divorce court." That's it, that's all. (Ask Men)
Marriage has lessons we sometimes learn faster by going through divorce.
I didn't need to answer Vasquez's questions for women at BWBTT near the end of the post, but you may want to take a look at those.
I'm not on the market for marriage, but I have a friend who is on the block. Well, she says she may not want marriage so much as to have a long-term relationship. I don't even want that. She's one of those friends who tells me I'm scared of marriage, but when I look at the amount of energy she's given to thinking about what kind of man would be right for her and compare it to how much I think about this (very little), I know what I feel is not fear but disinterest.
I enjoy the freedom of only concerning myself with what my children and elderly parents need and what I need or want. I hated the pressure of being expected to conform to what my former spouse or society believes makes a "good" wife. Neither have I found myself since my divorce thinking I'd do this or go there if only I had a husband or boyfriend. When I try to imagine being married, I shudder, true, but I don't think it's about fear of marriage but aversion.
Perhaps those men in Vasquez's post would put me in the category of being "self-centered," but I don't think that's it. I don't put myself ahead of my children. I'm concerned about social justice, improving the world, and helping people other than myself, and I volunteer time to causes because of how people will be served, not to get a gold star. But, I do like making decision about my life and how I spend my time for myself. Does that make me self-centered?
In contrast, being in a good relationship and spending time with a male companion is very important to my friend, so much so that she's taken time to dissect what makes a good mate. She's also divorced, btw, and was married for the same length of time as I. Like me she wasn't happy in her first marriage, and she doesn't want a man to run her life, but she does, unlike me, want steady male companionship.
When she talks to me about men of interest and relationships, I realize she's far more suited to what most men want in a wife than I am. She talks about cooking and organizing living space, how she would help so-and-so get his health on track. She also puts lots of energy into her career, and I doubt she'd give it up for a man. Still, with time, money, and a male focus, I think she could Betty Crocker down and be a great, traditional wife.
Is that what it takes, doing the Betty Crocker quick step?
I know some women don't like to hear it, but I think most average men prefer traditional wives who will cook and clean and free them of those duties iif at all possible. My mother didn't model this aspect of life to me as the key to a happy marriage, but I do recall arguments about cooking and cleaning when I was growing up. She worked, but my dad still hoped for June Clever, although he was not Ward.
To me household duties are something you do because you have to whether married or not. Only those wealthy enough to keep household staff can avoid it. But when you're a married heterosexual female, you do such duties on someone else's timetable and sometimes how someone else may want them done. And if you put them off for a while when they fall to you, there may be trouble. But for me, while I've gone through spells of domesticity, making a home does not come naturally. It's a real effort for me to think domestically regularly.
Nevertheless, I was raised seeing women serve men, not my mom as much as other women in the family, but I did see this behavior as standard. A man comes home and you fix him his plate. You attend a gathering and look! The women are preparing plates for men, bringing them their food and fetching their drinks. I still see this on TV shows and in commercials. Is it nature, or are we women nurtured this way? I think it's a little of both.
My stronger egalitarian nature, however, has never warmed to living my life this way, yet my practical nature senses that many relationships work better when the female adopts the servant role. Unfortunately, I'm one who easily absorbs guilt about not living this female tradition. Sunday School lessons shout in my head, "Who are you to not want to be a servant? Christ was a servant!"
The point I make here is not that you must like housework or even do housework in order to be a wife. If that were true then wealthy married men who employ cooks and housekeepers could declare their wives are not wives. What I'm talking about is compromise. Are you willing to compromise, are you willing to take on a duty or adopt a position on a regular basis that you don't like or that doesn't agree with your nature? Will you take it on for life?
For you, the stickler may not be housework or you may have a mate who doesn't measure his wife by housework, but something will come up that you must do that you would prefer to do on your own timetable and not someone else's, if you do it at all. Will love be enough to keep you in your place?
I married too young for me, I think, at age 20. I wish I had thought things through more carefully and not even had a relationship so young. I wish I had scrutinized myself back then the way Anxious Black Woman apparently has done according to her comment at BWBTT to Lisa Vasquez:
I guess I should jump right into this since I'm unmarried. Except, unlike you, I think marriage is VERY political, so I'm not sure how much this can be divorced from politics. Also, I too have been told that the reason why I'm in my 30s and still unmarried is because I don't want to be a "wife," and my eyes are finally opening and realizing that, yes, I have not been imagining myself in wife mold. I've fantasized the whole "bride" thing. Wife thing? Not so much. (Comment at BWBT)
When I read that I wondered how did I get married at all? I didn't fantasize about weddings either, What! Oh, yes, I fantasized ronance and thought I was in love. Stupidity just sort of happens.
And this is part of the reason I know myself better. I've been stupidity stricken since my divorce, totally smitten. I met a man and found myself feeling that I wanted to take care of him. Oh, he didn't need anyone to take care of him, not even to cook for him. He is one of those new-age "strong, secure" men. But I knew that if I were with him, I'd lean that way, lean toward deferring to him and putting his wants ahead of mine. Visions of fixing a plate danced in my head. That's how stupid the infautation chemicals in my brain made me.
And then I wondered, but how long would it last? How long would I want to defer? When would I start to feel I was taken for granted? And what would happen the first time we strongly disagreed? After getting used to being put first, would he turn into a crazy control freak trying to reign me in? Or would unconditional love prevail on my part and make me able to bend over backward? (And I knew it would have to be me because I could tell this new-age strong man could be inflexible.)
Unconditional love, a phenomenon that creates flexibility, is a rare thing, perhaps even a myth when it comes to the average human. On that the owner of BWBTT and I agree. But wouldn't it be nice to find a mate who possessed that quality. Not one that let you run over him, but one who bent with you? I think the average man either bends too far or rarely at all, especially the older, average man. A firm, yet bendable middle-aged man is hard to find. And is it male nature in general that assumes the woman must bend? When they drool over flexibility is it about more than great sex?
Like I said, until I'm ready to bend over again, I'm not the marrying kind.
Nordette Adams is a Contributing Editor for Blogher.com whose personal blog is at this link.
Comments
Wow!
Lots to think about. I had a bad first marriage that held sway over me for a long time. Then I had a series of long-term and short-term relationships. then I god remarried three years ago.
I asked the universe to send me someone who loved me at the same time I loved them and with whom I'd be equally yoked or to take the desire away. I had a job I enjoyed, wonderful friends, lots of interests and wasn't thinking about men when my husband appeared in my life. I've been surprised at how little adjustment we've had to make to live together. He's different than any man I've ever dated and I've found happiness without having to bend over or be a substitute Mom.
I am and was open to what life brings me. I could have stayed happily single but was open to marriage if a great and good love came my way. It did.
I'm glad that you've found your happiness.
For me, just because one marriage was dreadful doesn't mean that marriage was dreadful. I had so many signs that my first husband was wrong for me and I ignored those signs. He never was anybody different. I guess I thought I could fix him.
Anyhow. It's not political (although it is a contract), it's not a statement, it's not the only way I could live, it's not anything ore than I grew to love someone and marriage made sense for both of us. He's the first man I ever met who: wanted to be married and who wanted to be married to me for real and not just for play.
One size does not fit all
When a marriage works well it's a beautiful thing, and it sounds like you've got that, which is a blessing. Nevertheless, I don't believe everyone is cut out for marriage. All people are not the same.
I also think that we may go through seasons in our lives during which we are ill-suited to matrimony, which is why I said at the start of the posts "I don't think I want to be marriage material right now." I avoid saying "never" about anything. As someone who was married for 23 years, I can't assert that not one of them was acceptable, that I spent not one happy moment. That would make me insane. Who would stay in hell for 23 years if they didn't have to? But things change and life goes on.
So, I don't advise against marriage. Neither do I think no one can have a happy union. I advise against stupidity and hope that people will be more careful than I was when at a tender age I dived in irresponsibly.
Thanks for sharing your insight.
Nordette Adams is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is at this link.
compromise
Compromise is a part of any long term relationship. Not wanting to compromise is not being selfish. But on the other hand, being willing to compromise is not necesarily being untrue to yourself, or weak, or foolish. I guess its a matter of balance. If only one partner has to "bend", or if one partner does not recognise the bending, there will be trouble.
I have some friends who are single, and who say they are desperately looking for a partner. But when I look at them, I see that they only want the "good stuff" and only on their terms. I dont think there is anything wrong with them being strong, stubborn and independent. But they are also chasing after a dream relationship that does not exist, and I find that sad. In fact, the very qualities that would make them a good partner, they consider to be weakness. His a Nice Guy, not a Sexy Guy. They only date the Bastard, and then are upset when he is a Bastard.
Actually I think compromise can be a good
thing
All the world would be forever at war if everyone refused to compromise or cooperate. And you're right, compromise does not mean being untrue to yourself necessarily. But I do believe that sometimes in a desperate attempt to make a troubled marriage work, people can compromise too much.
I wanted to work things out with my husband when I saw how the break-up was affecting our children, but had I done what he wanted me to do and been completely under his control, I don't think I would have been doing my children or myself a service.
The dream relationship? Yes. I do think sometimes we can be so picky that we miss good opportunities to have a wonderful life. The way to avoid this probably is probably found in "Lover, know thyself." A potential mate may be right but just not right for you or he/she could be just what you need in your life at the moment, but you're too afraid and stubborn to see that. Consistent fear and stubbornness rarely result in a wonderful life.
Nordette Adams is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is at this link.
Learn to Differentiate
I was married for 12 years. It was hell. Funny thing ... I still have the fantastic resume. It had to be built as I tried desperately to provide for my family. But, I digress ...
Yes, compromise is a great thing when executed correctly. The key is to learn to differentiate between when you are compromising and when you are changing the essence of who you are simply because you don't want to fight anymore or because he has psychologically maneuvered you into such a position. For a lot of women that line is extremely vague.
"To change for others is to lie to yourself." ~Mona Lisa Smile, Film (2003)
The list...
Thanks for the thoughtful post, Nordette. What's really sticking in my craw is that ridiculous list. The truth is, you can take out the word "women" from each item and substitute in "men," and I'm pretty sure that a lot of women would agree that this is a condition that makes a guy not marriage material. I have way too many many married friends who have problems when their husbands' family members interfere with their lives or they are expected to prop him up entirely or he's mismanaged his life and now she's cleaning up the pieces. It doesn't work well on either side.
That said, I've never really thought of myself as marriage material because I can't fit into the socially reinforced role of a "good" wife, either. I think men who don't expect to be served are a rare find, indeed. I'm pretty darn lucky to have met one of them. If not, like you, I'd much just rather be by myself.
Suzanne Reisman, Contributing Editor - Feminism & Gender
Campaign for Unshaved Snatch (CUSS) & Other Rants
What men call marriage material
Yeah, that list of the type of women men call unsuitable marriage material stuck in my craw too, Suzanne, which is why I included it. I kept thinking that imperfect men are apparently looking for perfect women. You're right, you could replace the word "women" with the word "men."
It's also reminded me of men with beer bellies who only want women with supermodel bods. I'd be very surprised to find out that the men who shared their opinions for the list could meet the criteria they expected of women.
I believe it's best to marry someone who's as close to whole as possible, but I also think some of the types of women on the list reflect that some of these men want women who will bow and scrape.
Some items smack of a double standard: "Women who are career-obsessed."
I wonder if the man who said that thinks having a career that's important to you makes you career-obsessed, and if so, does he apply that standard to men who wish to be married?
To keep the list in perspective, consider that it's the thoughts of men who accept a traditional Christian persepctive of the place of women.
And yes, a man who does not expect to be served is a rare find indeed.
Nordette Adams is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is at this link.
I've been pondering a post...
On why it's important to me to get married, should true love come my way, but it's still percolating and percolating.
There's a lot to think about here, and yeah, that list is crazy!
I'd love if you'd add this post to the "sex & relationships" category.
Cheers,
Liz Rizzo
I blog at Everyday Goddess.
Sex and Relationships?
Thanks, Liz. I'll add this post to that category right now. I guess it makes sense there too.
If you'll check the comments at Black Women, Blow the Trumpet, the post linked in my post above, you'll see that Vasquez talks about "marrying up," and some other women comment on whether or not it's important to "marry up." One says love is more important but another one says she's considering that it may be important because she's met men who are intimidated by her having a Ph.D African-American women are commenting on that at BWBTT, but I've been wondering if it's something women in general still think about. So, I'm tossing that in your post percolator. :-)
I look forward to reading your post.
Nordette Adams is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is at this link, and you may check her latest personal posts on her BlogHer profile.
Marrying Up or Selling Out?
I have a master's degree; my husband doesn't. At my peak year of earnings, he made about three times more than I did. I'm not sure if that counts for "marrying up," but I think it affects a lot of my decisions. For example, I want to go back to school for an MFA in creative writing, but because his career is in NYC and his career is what will pay for my MFA (as it did for my Master's in Public Administration), I felt I could only apply to schools in the City unless I wanted to move away from him for two years, which I don't. Since I am interested in nonfiction, this seriously limited the number of programs I could apply to, and I didn't get in anywhere. (Although I am on the wait list at one place - fingers crossed!!!) Location was also how I chose which MPA programs to apply to.
I've always planned to be an independent woman who does what is best for my ambitions and career, and yet here I am. Even though my husband treats me equally and tells me that if I were earning more than him, he'd be happy (because we'd have more money) rather than jealous or feeling inadequate as a man, so it's really tricky in a lot of ways. I feel like I still somehow managed to fall into the wife-follows-the-husband gender trap, although I impose it on myself.
Suzanne Reisman, Contributing Editor - Feminism & Gender
Campaign for Unshaved Snatch (CUSS) & Other Rants
Wife follows husband gender trap?
Been there done that and have the checkered resume to prove it.
But for the right spouse, there's no shame in selling out. LOL. There's a lot to be said for being practical, especially when you've got a relatioship that works.
I put off getting my MA because my ex-husband said he should get his MBA first, something he was not really attempting to do. I know now that a desire to get his MBA was not the real motivation for his objectin to my going back to school. So, who can I blame for missing the boat there but myself? I should've gone anyway, but I didn't want to deal with his anger over it.
Suzanne, check out UNO's Low Res Program, but only if you can stand to be away from your family and in Europe for six weeks in the summer. The rest of the year you take classes online. It's not as expensive as some other programs. Sounds like you've got a husband who'd root for you. :-)
I've been considering this program myself, giving my self pep talks with phrases like "no time like the present." What I've got going for me is that my children are older. The scary part is submitting work in order to be accepted.
Nordette Adams is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is at this link.
Totally off the subject
Yeah, the low res programs are cool! I started looking into them when it was clear that I might not be accepted into a traditional program. I'll definitely check out UNO, and thanks not only for the suggestion, but for your kind and supportive comments after my little mini-meltdown. :)
Suzanne Reisman, Contributing Editor - Feminism & Gender
Campaign for Unshaved Snatch (CUSS) & Other Rants
A lot of good points
Excellent article, Nordette. :)
Unfortunately, a lot of women don't think about this, as their main focus is to BELIEVE that they are marriage-material and strive to be *worthy* of marriage. That's all well and good, except what they're not considering is what they're giving up at the same time that they're gaining a husband.
Actually... I should say, they're not PLANNING to give anything up when they get married, which is why the dating/mating ritual is as lame as it always has been and always will be. If a guy doesn't do his own laundry or wash his own dishes NOW... what makes you think he's going to do laundry or wash dishes when he gets married to you? If he likes to watch football ALL DAY on Sundays, what makes you think that's going to change? Guys in general get married to make their lives EASIER and not HARDER! :)
Of course, all my feminist friends here will say that's not "a woman's job" to do all that stuff, and of course, there are lots of guys that take care of themselves and are willing to take care of their woman as well, including dinner for her on the table when she gets home from work. Unfortunately, guys like that sell out faster than hotcakes, so you're gonna have to bring your "A Game" to snag one.
Anyway, I think introspection and self-awareness is key for anyone looking to pair-bond with someone else. If more people actually DID IT, the cheating and divorce rates would be lower.
~ Bill
I blog at billcammack.com
Personal freedom vs. marriage
Thanks for the thoughts and insight Nordette. I stumbled upon your post while trying to find stuff on affairs, believe it or not....After what has been an eye/mind opening summer, I have paused and actually considered having an affair, and it's not because I don't love my husband, because I do. In fact, the events of this summer have pulled us closer together than we've been in awhile. I think it has more to do with freedom, and personal insight and creativity, and all the things that can get swallowed up and hidden from oneself within the confines of a 'typical' marriage. When you rediscover them...Watch Out World!! It is freeing, & validating and a powerful feeling. I value my marriage and usually find comfort in it's routines and responsibilities, but.....sometimes I wonder about how much of me I have forsaken to continue in it.
Of course, I have three children that help to 'seal the deal', but even so, lately I've been asking a whole lot of questions which are very similair to the ones you posed. And I also believe that your list of characteristics in a woman which deem her 'unsuitable' for marriage (borrowed from another post) can and should be held up to men across the world. Each and every line applies to the male gender too, but unfortunaltely, we live in a society that still belives such issues such as "domineering and critical personalities...control issues....low self esteem, & deep insecurity and emotionally-neediness...." pertain especially to women, and that we are somehow *less* if we are guilty of any of them. And too, I think you are right about finding unconditional love.....not too sure if it exists, and if so, it's probably only from our moms, and unfortunately I got gyped out of that too, when she died when I was 7.
Perhaps finding a bendable man is the true aim, but for right now I am diggin' on re-finding me.