BlogHer - Jimmy Carter protests religion's treatment of women - Comments

I think you have it wrong

Mata H — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 08:36:29 -0500

Conservative religions were not singled out. I'm not at all sure it is helpful to say that one religion is "worse" than another. The historically hierarchical ethos across the board was the point.

~~ Contributing Editor, Mata H. also blogs right along at Time's Fool

Jimmy carter

Stanley James — Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:04:40 -0500

Wasn't it about 2002 that the So Baptists reaffirmed that "women were subservient to their husbands?" I've got a good memory on these sort of things.

The history of conservative religions has always put men above women. Jewish Orthodox, Catholic, and the best example is Islam. Where the man can divorce his wife by saying "I divorce thee" 3 times. While she has no rights, and in many Islamic countries is tossed into a forced marriage to cement triabl and business ties.

And the continum of these sort of things is also found re the religions treatment of gay people, and how conservative religions use of the bible as a weapon is a disgrace against everything jesus life meant for ALL people.

And if you did a little, you will find that the So Baptists came into being as a church in the first half of the 1800s. Where they were the bedrock of slavery, and creator of it's progeny, segregation. Nothing like always having some group to denigrate, to blind the eye and harden the heart. The opposite of what Jesus said were the two real commandments - love God, and love thy neighbor as thyself.

The only shame re Jimmy Carter, is that it took him so long to make this move. To understand fully that what is called Christian Love iw really "we'll love you if you do as we say, and hate and denigrate you and deny your humanity, if you don't conform.

Rule and control based absolutistmentalities like these open the floodgates to all kinds of tyrants and tryannies. Of which an example was the people who gave us 9/11. Fortunately they ONLY got to kill 3000 people. Over the years of segregation and slavery, probably a million Blacks were killed, and the number rwould have been far higher, except that Blacks were property -same mentalitiy, and you don't kill a work animal unless it becomes dangerous.

It is all the same thing - CONTROL CONTROL CONTROL. Anytime I see a control religion, I ask why they are so bereft of real value and the messages of Jesus life, that they can't simply asy - What did you do today for your poor, sick, denigrated, old neighbor? Whether they are white like you, Black, gay, etc.

There will be a rapture. But IMHO, it will be people like the leaderships of the So. Baptists, and their blind, unthinking followers who will find that infront of the Perly Gates, there will be an open trap door waiting for them.

Thank you, Jimmy.

cavallucci — Tue, 28 Jul 2009 13:28:06 -0500

Kudos to Carter. The misogyny
inherent in the interpretation (or misinterpretation) of words written
several hundred years after the fact, then manipulated by power hungry
men in their plight to rule and subjugate rather than retain the
essence of the love and grace implied by the real teachings of Jesus
ought to be shirked for the harm they do and have done for centuries.
Good for you, Jimmy.

Danielle Cavallucci

author, Your Orgasmic Pregancy: Little Sex Secrets Every Hot Mama Should Know (Hunter House 2008)

Some more detail might help

Mata H — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 20:19:42 -0500

What Jimmy Carter and The Elders are saying is not a specific indictment of only the Southern Baptist Church, or even of Christianity alone. What they are saying is that religion across the board has been used to justify subjugation and bad treatment of women. The statement also says that this is counter to God's will. I am sure President Carter would agree with you that Jesus valued women. I agree with you. However, many of Jesus's followers have a view that women are "less than" men. If half the creation is viewed as "less than", well, all sorts of injustices can arise.

That doesn't mean that religions (generally stated) or the SBC agrees with these bad resulting things, but by promoting a belief that says women are "less than", any religion provides what can be the base for abuse.

Example - no where in the Koran does it say that women need to be genitally mutilated. But Koran teachings about women have been (mis) used to justify it.

This is not unique to women. People used to use the Bible to justify slavery, for example. Wikipedia mentions that fact in relation to the formation of the Southern Baptist Convention, for example. Of course that has changed, but the religious justification hurt people. Every religion can point to a belief that can result in pain to someone. And every religion needs to be holding themselves responsible, because it is their work to do good in the world, not wrong.

Please note that the source of the statement which gave rise to this the article is Jimmy Carter. He is reporting on the discussions over two years with The Elders a group of revered global leaders working for fairness and peace. You might want to read their statement found here.

Mr Carter mentioned the SBC because that was his religion. Elders of other religions would be mentioning theirs.

Does this help?

. ~~ Contributing Editor, Mata H. also blogs right along at Time's Fool

Offended.

melissajford — Sat, 25 Jul 2009 18:22:41 -0500

One thing that REALLY irritates me is to read angry, negative comments about MY CHURCH without any sources to back it up. Seeing people say things like, "I don't remember where I saw it but I read somewhere..." or "I don't remember who said it, but I heard that..." and then proceed to TOTALLY and COMPLETELY twist the words and or motives of MY denomination just infuriates me.

Feel free to hold whatever opinions you'd like, but if you're going to bash an organization that has done a LOT of good in the world, state your sources.

Furthermore, as a life-long Southern Baptist, I really take issue with how Southern Baptists are made out to be women-hating bigots by this article and the comments that follow. I assume none of you who bash us have EVER set foot inside a Bible-believing Baptist church. Since you haven't, let me state clearly that you have it WRONG. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that women are 'inferior,' and in fact, a lot of Old-Testament laws and practices were put in place to PROTECT women. And if you don't think Jesus valued women, you clearly don't know your Bible.

And then to imply that Biblical teachings about women lead to abuse, rape, slavery and genital mutilation.....are you KIDDING??? What you are stating is in fact the diametrical OPPOSITE of the teachings of the Bible and the Baptist church.

Before you all continue to lead people astray with your unfounded rants, maybe you should research the truth a little more fully.

Thanks, Rev Janet

Mata H — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 14:44:55 -0500

There is a direct connection. My prayer is with yours.

~~ Contributing Editor, Mata H. also blogs right along at Time's Fool

hi Ilja

Mata H — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 14:41:46 -0500

Carter was not singling out his church in the statement. Although, he did sever ties with the SBC in 2000. This statement says that ALL religions have been used to subjugate women. When he and the Elders searched for the causes of violence against women and mistreatment of women,they found religious beliefs at the core of the justifications for such behavior across the board.

~~ Contributing Editor, Mata H. also blogs right along at Time's Fool

Sue Monk Kidd's writings deal with this

marywallace — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:26:37 -0500

In 'Dance of the Dissident Daughter', Sue Monk Kidd writes her way thru her awakening about the misogeny in the Southern Baptist church. She wrote 'Secret Lives of Bees', but her other writings, non-fiction, are beautiful. Mary Wallace

Thank you, President Carter

janetedwards — Wed, 22 Jul 2009 16:45:59 -0500

Jimmy Carter has done a wonderful thing here. He had the courage to name reality
in the church by using the two words, "discrimination" and "injustice." I pray
that our churches will see clearly the connection between our sinful injustice
toward women and our dogged discrimination against gay lesbian, bisexual and
transgender people. Thank you, President Carter, for showing us the way to
follow our conscience and stand up for what we know is right.

Peace,

Reverend Janet Edwards
timetoembrace.com

Jimmy Carter is a Hero for Taking a Stand!

Kishabjohnson — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 21:26:13 -0500

As a woman who is presently suffering from persecution and oppression by Christian men who refuse to believe that God anoints, appoints, commissions, and assigns women to leadership roles, it is refreshing to see a world renown leader take a position. I have been subjected to humiliation, espionage, cruel bondage, and attack by Gestapo police officers and laypersons from the community who were sent against me by church leaders who perceived me as a threat. What was my crime? I trusted and believed wholeheartedly in the risen Lord and the teachings of the Holy Scriptures. Because so few religious leaders today have made a full commitment to the cause of Christ, and rather, seek to advance themselves by building their own panel houses and personal wealth, they were immediately threatened by me as my goals and objectives are aligned with Christ’s – I am concerned with the salvation of souls.

This is a serious problem, and clearly one that needs to be addressed on the national stage. If more of us take a stand on this issue, it is my firm belief that God can work supernaturally on the hearts of the masses and create an atmosphere of honesty, authenticity, and candor, which must precede any necessary changes which are long overdue.

I have always respected Mr. Carter, and seeing this story has lifted my crushed spirit – crushed by cruel, sexist, and misogynistic men who intentionally limit and prohibit the advancement of women in the church because of their own insecurities.

Whatever the Reasons, thanks for this Post

windysblog — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:42:30 -0500

Hey Mata,

Thanks for this post. I was just reading AOL's version of the story on Politics Daily. I've not always been a supporter of President Carter because of his politics, however, I am a firm believer that people can change. Perhaps the knowlege that comes to us with age has begun to set in for President Carter.

Whatever his reasons, I am glad for the discussion. Personally I feel that organized religion will continue to change for the better as we all grow spiritually and realize the parts of the organization that are prejudicial are wrong.

I don't fault President Carter for staying as long as he did in the SB church. I think he tried to make changes while there. I will pray for him and his family, because I know what it is like to leave a church that you've depended on for your spiritual life. It is never an easy choice.

Once again, thanks for the post!

thanks klaasand

Mata H — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:31:05 -0500

Thanks for your helpful comment. It's always preferable to shed light instead of heat on such a sensitive discussion.

~~ Contributing Editor, Mata H. also blogs right along at Time's Fool

re UU

Mata H — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:26:09 -0500

I don't think the Carters have changed their position as born again Christians, but have spoken up about the treatment of woman across the board in all religions.

~~ Contributing Editor, Mata H. also blogs right along at Time's Fool

thx Chris

Mata H — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:24:43 -0500

Please note change to headline and added ed note.
Thanks

~~ Contributing Editor, Mata H. also blogs right along at Time's Fool

JESUS IS THE WHOLE BIBLE

ilja — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:01:00 -0500

The problem with that analysis is that he is acting as if the only teachings of Jesus are the words in red. Since Jesus is God and is the Word of God and the Word of God was inspired by God, then the whole Bible is the teachings of Jesus. The Bible must be read in context and it must not contradict itself, else you are misunderstanding it. Iron sharpens iron. That's why it must be tested against itself.

Don't get me wrong. I am definitely no Biblical Scholar. I do know however that the Bible is the inspired Word of God and if one decides to treat His Word like a salad bar and only pick the things you like, then you would not be getting the full promises and wisdom of God.

The word subserviant is being mostly misunderstood by those who have a problem with it. It is not an excuse for a man to treat his wife as a slave nor her to treat him as infallible. It has to do with leadership and Jesus teaches that leadership means to serve others as He did when he washed the feet of his followers.

I have to get back to work so I better quit here. Thanks for listening.

Jimmy Carter protests religion's treatment of women

Mata H — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 18:38:45 -0500

Editor's note: Jimmy Carter officially departed the Southern Baptist church in 2000, but still stayed on at Maranatha Baptist in Plains, Georgia, teaching Sunday School. He held on to a Baptist affiliation through many conflicts, including the denomination's anti-gay positions. This week, he issued a position paper indicting all organized religions for their treatment of women.

"Women and girls have been discriminated against for too long in a twisted interpretation of the word of God." -- Jimmy Carter, Former US president, Nobel Prize Winner

This week, Jimmy Carter left the Southern Baptist Church, where he has been a member for over 60 years. He and Roselyn distanced themselves from full participation a few years ago, but he remained a deacon and still taught Sunday School. He held on to his denominational affiliation through many conflicts - including the denomination's anti-gay positions. This document says nothing about LGBT issues, and that is a tragic shortcoming. But it does say something about women, and in that it only came part way, that part is very strong indeed. It isn't enough, but it is something.

Carter has been active for some time with the New Baptist Covenant which seeks to join various branches of the Baptist church with a social agenda. The primary action there has been to bring races together.

Here are excerpts from Carter's position paper.

At their most repugnant, the belief that women must be subjugated to the wishes of men excuses slavery, violence, forced prostitution, genital mutilation and national laws that omit rape as a crime. But it also costs many millions of girls and women control over their own bodies and lives, and continues to deny them fair access to education, health, employment and influence within their own communities.
.
The impact of these religious beliefs touches every aspect of our lives. They help explain why in many countries boys are educated before girls; why girls are told when and whom they must marry; and why many face enormous and unacceptable risks in pregnancy and childbirth because their basic health needs are not met...
.
The truth is that male religious leaders have had - and still have - an option to interpret holy teachings either to exalt or subjugate women. They have, for their own selfish ends, overwhelmingly chosen the latter. Their continuing choice provides the foundation or justification for much of the pervasive persecution and abuse of women throughout the world. This is in clear violation not just of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights but also the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul, Moses and the prophets, Muhammad, and founders of other great religions - all of whom have called for proper and equitable treatment of all the children of God. It is time we had the courage to challenge these views.

Not a lot of room for interpretation there. This straightforward document had me in tears. How many women have yearned for how many years to hear these words spoken by men of influence with the religions of the world. Carter isn't the first, to be sure. But he is among the most visible and respected men to do so. And he even left a group that was dear to him. It was a move he described as "painful".

Women speaking about change can only take us so far. Men's voices joined to ours -- i.e. voices from the hierarchy -- strengthen the position by making it harder for other men to dismiss, and by waking up women who think all men hold the same position in their church.

Hannah, in her blog about faith and abuse, says:

If we can open this door, and speak of the injustice that is done in the realm of women? What is to stop the conversation from continuing on to Sexual abuse among other things. You won't have to worry about people accusing you of 'slandering a man of God' when you dare speak a word. WOW maybe common sense can be used, and uglies can be faced instead of hidden...
Carter Speaks out about Treatment of women of faith, and how it encourages domestic violence! What a man of GOD!

Wisewebwoman who is over 60, and has followed Carter for along time says:

I've always admired the man. Sure, he had his faults. But his work for Habitat for Humanity, his humility and his downright civility have endeared him to many.
And today, in his 85th year, he completely blows me over with this:

This shouldn't blow us away. It should be routinely heard. In hearing Carter's words, and experiencing my emotional reaction, I am aware how much I needed to hear a churchman say this. To say it straight out with no excuses. His comment highlights the lack of other comments.

Carter is part of a group called "The Elders" -- retired statesmen who can be activists without worrying about re-election. (Now there is a commentary in itself, eh?) Here he is speaking about The Elder's position. It is stunning in its directness.

Sarah is also moved by the statement.

I know, right?! My heart swelled as I read Carter’s recent statement condemning “discrimination against women and girls on grounds of religion or tradition.”...Women’s rights are human rights. It’s amazing to read this in a mainstream publication, along with a denouncement of “tradition” as justification for oppression.

Diana wonders if he could not have made more changes by staying within the SB framework, but says:

The R.E.M. hit song which made the expression of “Losing My Religion” an internationally recognized phrase, was written about unrequited love – and the expression itself comes from the American South meaning that a person has run out of patience. I think President Carter is suffering a broken heart after so many decades of having faith that the teachings he worshiped as a Southern Baptist could help make the world a better place, especially for women. As Carter notes in his essay, every religion suffers corruption at the hands of selfish people, and he has decided that the change needed in the religious tradition he called home cannot be realized form the inside. I appreciate that in the process Carter is demonstrating a way to examine sexism in our faith communities.

Charlotte talks about her long-standing admiration for Carter and adds:

Thank you, Jimmy Carter, for standing by your principles and your faith (as opposed to the religion you left) that sees us all equally as children of God. And thank you for being someone still worthy of the admiration that began when I was a little girl.

Blog after blog by women just reprints the whole essay by Carter. as if to say, "It speaks for itself."

I am so glad he wrote it, but sad that it feels so surprising. And sad that there are not more echoes. And sad that it took so long. And sad that we feel we have to say thank you, because so few religious male leaders have taken this position. And sad that all of our GLBT brothers and sisters can't enjoy the same mention.

But even as I wait for the other voices that should come, I can also feel pleased that Jimmy, at age 85, came this far through. At least and at last.

Mata H, CE for Religion & Spirituality, blogs about darned near everything at Time's Fool