BlogHer - Oprah's Hip-Hop Town Hall - Comments

Don't Believe the Hype

cozyone — Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:00:16 -0500

"We're talking about a lot of these artists who come from the most extreme cases of poverty and ignorance ... And when they write a song, and they write it from their heart, and they're not educated, and they don't believe there's opportunity, they have a right, they have a right to say what's on their mind," he said.

"Whether it's our sexism, our racism, our homophobia or our violence, the hip-hop community sometimes can be a good mirror of our dirt and sometimes the dirt that we try to cover up," Simmons said. "Pointing at the conditions that create these words from the rappers ... should be our No. 1 concern." - Russell Simons

"Eighty percent of Hip-Hop Music is bought by white youths. They are fascinated by what goes down in the 'Hood. Most of these kids will never experience life in the ghetto except through Hip-Hop music. Not only do they like the music, but they are in awe of how some artists have survived and become successful after living in such a poor, war-like environment. Saul Williams

I have alway believed that association brings about similarity. Our children talk, walk, mimic, done the same violent and misogynist attitudes as these Hip Hop artists. So please (Russell) don't insult my intelligence by insinuating that our kids are not getting a hold of this music.

My issue is not with the seventy or eighty percent white middle class males that are "legitimately" buying this music, but with the 99.5 percent black people who are creating and promoting it. I look at this statistic with suspicion because I know that black kids find other ways to obtain this music and their purchases or non-purchases cannot be accounted for by normal means.

Our kids do not buy their music from Walmart, Best Buy or Barnes and Noble. They buy their music from brother-man with the 500 plus bootlegged CDs in the trunk of his car or they get a free bootlegged copy from a friend, and if push comes to shove, they record it off the radio. So no, there will not be a record of their purchase - therefore their numbers are not accounted for in the statistic. We as African American should not deceive ourselves into believing that because their numbers are low on the books, invariably means they are not getting this music and being influenced by it. Turning a blind eye to this problem would be an injustice to our children. Russell Simons is not the "expert" I listen to on this issue.

Another thing, recently their has been a knawing suspicion that many of these so-called Ghetto Hip Hop artists are not from "The Hood" but are undercover middle to upper class youth who are taking advantage of the lucrative business of Hip Hop. So don't try to sell me the line about they are rapping about the hardships of living poor and destitute in America. Some of these kids probably have never stepped foot into the hood until they became famous as Hip Hop artists.

Double Standard?

missy1e23 — Sun, 22 Apr 2007 22:53:08 -0500

I personally don't believe double standards are fair. However, for blacks, double standards have always existed. I am an upright citizen. I will admit I have recieved two speeding tickets. Those are my only run ins with the law. I still find myself being observed and followed in department stores for no reason. When I walk, I don't walk as if I'm suspicious. When I try on clothes, IF I try them on, I don't walk out looking unusually bulky. So why do I still find myself a victim? Because, I'm black. My dress doesn't suggest that I'm out to rip off some name brand purse. What other reason do they have to follow me? It's something we've learn to deal with. None of us will ever be happy with it, but we have been forced to live with it. Double standards have always been an issue. If the argument of double standards is the only one they have, then it is weak. So, as life has forced "us" to do it, "Get over it." Everything in life isn't fair. That's a harsh reality that we must live with. The one time that blacks have the "better end" of a double standard is the one time that everybody raises the issue. Unfortunately, this is so typical of our society.

Double standard?

Virginia DeBolt — Sat, 21 Apr 2007 16:31:56 -0500

Isn't it perpetrating a double standard when one part of society can talk and act one way (in this example rappers, but it could be anyone) while other parts of the same society are not allowed to talk and act this way?

http://www.webteacher.ws/
http://first50.wordpress.com/

I found this interesting.

cooper — Sat, 21 Apr 2007 11:32:19 -0500

I found this interesting.

An Open Letter to Oprah Winfrey

Isn't it a fact though that at least seventy-percent of hip-hop music is purchased by white middle class males between the ages of fourteen and twenty-five?
I don't know where I'm going with this but it does make me wonder where the true responsibilty needs to come from.

cooper

The need to look at the whole

Kim Pearson — Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:51:14 -0500

Thanks for this post, Laina.

Melinda, although I'm critical of what's being marketed as hip-hop these days, you're right about cherry-picking and the importance of context. Russsell Simmons would agree with you:

"We're talking about a lot of these artists who come from the most extreme cases of poverty and ignorance ... And when they write a song, and they write it from their heart, and they're not educated, and they don't believe there's opportunity, they have a right, they have a right to say what's on their mind," he said.

"Whether it's our sexism, our racism, our homophobia or our violence, the hip-hop community sometimes can be a good mirror of our dirt and sometimes the dirt that we try to cover up," Simmons said. "Pointing at the conditions that create these words from the rappers ... should be our No. 1 concern."

After all, Anthony Hecht's "The Dover Bitch" is a canonical work, despite its offensive title and an attitude toward women that could be seen as troubling. Two Live Crew had nothing on Jellyroll Morton, Mae West, Bessie Smith or Ma Rainey when it came to raunch. And the casual disrespect shown to black people, and black women had its poignant antecedents in such songs as Alberta Hunter's 1913 ditty, "You Can't Tell the Difference After Dark":

I may be as brown as a berry
But that's only secondary
And you can't tell a difference after dark..."

But here's my beef: I think Simmons is taking the easy way out.

First of all, he has to acknowledge what Byron Hurt found in Beyond Beats and Rhymes: that there are folks creating offensive content because they believe that's all the labels will buy. Even Eminem has said that his work didn't sell until he became outrageous.

Second, although this kind of content has always been around, it hasn't always been available at all hours of the day and night. I mentioned Nikki Giovanni's "Great Pax Whitey/Peace be Still" below. That didn't play on the radio during the day. And much of the music I referred to above wasn't played on the radio at all. BET and MTV have to take responsibility for what they have been putting on the air.

Finally, the artists who created Motown were every bit as poor and uneducated as the people Simmons refers to, but the one good thing to be said for Berry Gordy is that he made sure they got some training and polish before he put them on stage and on wax. And he didn't have the resources of a Russell Simmons. If Simmons wants to sign these folks and make money from them, he owes it to them to help them.

Peace out.

BlogHer Contributing Editor|Professor Kim|Contributing Writer, Online Journalism Review

i hope Cornel's latest CD fares better than the last

Kim Pearson — Fri, 20 Apr 2007 07:11:07 -0500

Thanks for the snippets of Dr. West's latest effort on your blog. I got to talk to him about this a few years ago, and he is committed to communicating with folks by any means necessary. His last spoken word CD didn't get much respect and precipitated his departure from Harvard, but this sounds quite a bit stronger, and collaborating with KRS-1 and Prince will certainly gain the project a wider hearing.

Having tried my hand at this kind of performance, myself, I know it ain't easy. But if he can get it right, well, let's just say that I am still listening to Nikki Giovann's 30th anniversary webcast of "Truth is on Its Way

, and loving it as much as I did when I was 15 years old. (Although I think a lot of people would need help understanding why "Great Pax Whitey/Peace Be Still," about the assassination of Dr. King, was not racist.)

Much more work to be done, clearly.

BlogHer Contributing Editor|Professor Kim|Contributing Writer, Online Journalism Review

Cornel West may have the right idea

ellenoir1 — Thu, 19 Apr 2007 21:26:18 -0500

Check my blog to read, hear, and see what I mean at http://ellenoir1.blogspot.com

" She was fantastic."As was

Melinda Casino — Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:50:35 -0500

"She was fantastic."

As was the entire panel, actually.

I can't comment on the

Melinda Casino — Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:36:38 -0500

I can't comment on the hip-hop stuff except to say that the phenomenon I've seen, and others have written about, is that the dominant culture cherry-picks something (e.g., misogyny) from non-dominant cultures and then gives them wider circulation. In this scenario there's a dynamic whereby there's a simultaneous owning and disowning going on here. The misogyny gets promoted and reinforced, but ownership of doing this can be denied (if called on).

Did you happen to catch conservative commentator Amy Holmes on Anderson Cooper last week? She was fantastic. Anyways she was on a panel discussion and said she remembers a time when hip-hop didn't have such an emphasis on hating women. She cited a few of her favorite groups, I think she listed Sugar Hill Gang. But her point was how hip-hop has changed.

Melinda
Contributing Editor, Feminism & Gender

Oprah's Hip-Hop Town Hall

lainad — Thu, 19 Apr 2007 14:59:33 -0500

I was able to catch the second day of Oprahâ€™s round table discussion on â€¦.what else? (For a recap of the first day of the discussion you can find it at Oprah.com) and found myself getting a tad annoyed, even though I have even more respect for former Def Jam head Russell Simmons that I did before. While acknowledging that yes, there is sexism in Hip-Hop Simmons argued that artists come to the plate as â€˜story tellers,â€™ using narratives from their own lives and experiences within their songs (which honestly, doesnâ€™t exactly justify the lyrics of some artists0:

"The hip-hop community is a mirror, a reflection of the dirt we overlookâ€”the violence, the misogyny, the sexism. They need to be discussed."

"All throughout history the poets who have been a reflection of society have always been under fire. We don't like what they have to say, but some of it has to be examined. It's important that we teach artists more. It's my job to teach artists to know more and say more."

What I respected was that despite the undeniable fact that Simmons past position as a music exec alluded that he faces some culpability in the initial emergence of questionable lyrics in Hip-Hop, he held his ground against Oprah, whose interest in the story seemed a bit forced â€“ like she was only doing it because it was a hot news item and not because she took a personal interest in it (but granted, Iâ€™m a bit biased against Oprahâ€¦.) Simmons talked back, didnâ€™t let her rail on about the perceived atrocities of Hip-Hop culture, and didnâ€™t seem too fazed at defending himself against this media giant. So yes, he provided an â€˜excuse,â€™ perhaps not the most solid one, but it turned the program into what is usually an â€˜Oprah is rightâ€™ forum into one that asked viewers to really look at all perspectives, perspectives that question the popular assertion that Hip-Hop music is evil and looks at how not just black consumers of Hip-Hop are responsible, but all of us.

BUTâ€¦.. From reading Bomaniâ€™s post on the Town Hall episode, I re-evaluated some of my initial thoughts about Simmons defence about artists and what shapes the narratives that go into their music. Is talking about drug dealing and pimping considered art? Do/ should artists have the responsibility of taking what they produce to the public into consideration? Yes, some artists have grown up in poverty, and they choose to use their music to narrate their experiences, as Simmons argued. But what is the true intent of their music? Do black artists have a responsibility to produce art that reflects only the good aspects of black life, or life in general?

Obviously, racism, sexism and classism are huge problems within the community, but do artists have an obligation to fight â€“ or at least address the problems â€“ within their music? The music executives signing these artists know that regardless of the social implications within the music from certain artists, people (statistics show that the main consumers of Hip-Hop music are white suburbanites), are buying the product.

Let me play the devilâ€™s advocate for a hot minute: We live in a capitalist, consumer-driven society in which people will do what they have to in order to make money. And not everyone is socially conscious, and why should the black community be so careful in the images they present when other cultural / ethnic groups do not have to live up to the same scrutiny? What about other genres of music? In the past, pre the emergence of Rap and Hip-Hop culture, rock and metal music was labelled as being a social problem. And as Simmons said, that even if the labels, music video and radio stations refused to air offensive music, people would still buy the product, especially since artists can now promote their music via the internet (MySpace, YouTube, etc)

My whole thing is this: How successful have we really been in the cessation of offensive music and videos? Iâ€™ve had a problem with some hip-hop artists for years, so I stopped purchasing albums. While it irks me to hear a artist refer to a woman as a â€˜bitchâ€™ or a â€˜ho,â€™ I believe that consumers have the power to turn off the radio, stop watching the video, write letters, picket buildingsâ€¦do whatever they feel comfortable with to let the corporations marketing and selling music know that they are not buying it.

But more importantly, I think that we have to question people who cannot separate fantasy from reality, who actually think that what they are seeing in videos and on albums are how black people â€“ all black people â€“ actually live and behave. People who choose to ignore the black politicians, social and cultural leaders, writers, lawyers, doctors, teachers, choosing to focus on a small segment of artists who simply donâ€™t care â€“ and because of the consumerism in our capitalistic society, really donâ€™t have to, unless someone is threatening to implement measures to deter their money-making initiaves. Also, I think that we need to ask what is driving women, specifically women of colour who appear in offensive music videos. Pam at Pamâ€™s House blend points out Nellyâ€™s infamous â€œTip Drillâ€ video to say this:

This video has to be a milestone in misogyny. Nelly's lyrics describe what he perceives to be ugly women with great bodies who need to hand themselves over to him -- and his crew -- and they'll slide money in their thong and, well, other things. Of course the women enjoy and beg for this, in his little fantasy video. The sad truth is, the women -- all beautiful, btw, since that wouldn't make a good video for the fellas to wank off to, willingly shook their asses in the camera, some almost completely nude in the uncut version.

No one, especially me, expects things to radically change in a two-episode discussion on Oprah. But it does suggest that everyone must re-evaluate their thinking on the topic, what they purchase and what they choose to watch on TV in order to spark change. As I said in a post on my blog, I don't buy into the arguement that Hip-Hop is to blame for Imus's statements (and if you watched 60 minutes last weekend, his previous racist remarks), but it has sparked a national discussion on how we can move past the finger pointing and decide how all of us can spark change.