BlogHer - Husbands, Wives and Equality - Comments

Crunchy Carpets, Dana From

Dana J. Tuszke — Tue, 08 May 2007 14:01:48 -0500

Crunchy Carpets, Dana From Mamalogues -- Instantly I think of "According to Jim". Such a mismatch it seems. Courtney Thorne-Smith and Jim Belushi? For real?

It's a funny show, but rarely do we see these couples in our neighborhoods. At least I have none in mine.

Dana from The Dana Files.

Great post!

Dana Loesch — Mon, 07 May 2007 14:49:11 -0500

"Look at the tv. Look at all the sitcoms today FILLED with dopey fat husbands married to good looking wives...how is it that things haven't changed since The Honeymooners on tv?

Gender stereotypes abound and nobody blinks."

I'm so glad you said this. I whole-heartedly agree.

Dana
Mamalogues.com
In the St. Louis Post-Dispatch
Pop Mama
Since Eve

and that is what cheeses my dh about women like that....

Crunchy Carpets — Fri, 04 May 2007 12:33:56 -0500

There seems to be still an assumption that men are SUPPOSED to work...SUPPOSED to be providers...SUPPOSED to be happy working their butts of for the good of the family, etc.

Some women seem to feel that while they are free to make choices about career or family or staying at home...the men have no say at all or feeling at all on the matter.

Look at the tv. Look at all the sitcoms today FILLED with dopey fat husbands married to good looking wives...how is it that things haven't changed since The Honeymooners on tv?

Gender stereotypes abound and nobody blinks.

Look for me at http://crunchycarpets.com or check out the ladies at www.wetcoastwomen.com

You are right, Sara, this

Dana J. Tuszke — Fri, 04 May 2007 08:15:55 -0500

You are right, Sara, this woman did seem to think she was entitled to these things. When I talked to my husband about this, he felt as though she wanted to be a "trophy wife who didn't want do anything accept look cute". He could be right...who knows?

Dana from The Dana Files.

I just learned what DH means

Dana J. Tuszke — Fri, 04 May 2007 08:13:32 -0500

I just learned what DH means myself. :) Dear Husband, I was told.

Belinda, you've made some very excellent points. Thank you!

Regarding the school aged children and going back to work, my aunt did the same thing. As soon as her youngest started first grade (kindergarten is half a day here), she got a job with the school system which was very flexible and helped to pay some of the debt she and my uncle incurred when they bought their house and a newer car to replace the junker they drove when money was tight.

She doesn't mind working, although she has told me it is difficult to cart each kid to their extra-curricular programs because she's a bit drained at the end of the day.

To be truthful, growing up my mother was home with us until we were in school, too. She only went back to work because my family was in serious debt. My father was a sole-proprietor and rarely paid himself a salary. So my mother went back to work to help.

I asked her, last night, if she wanted to work and she said to me:

"I didn't fight for this women's movement. I was perfectly happy raising my family and being a homemaker. But some women didn't like this role and that is their choice, but now society has made it so that women almost have to work. In the 70s when you were little the economy wasn't strong enough to allow me to stay home. Your father had a decent job and yet we still had trouble with our mortgage. I had no choice, which seems like it was the opposite of what this women's movement was all about. For me it was stay home and not have food on the table, or go to work and strive to survive."

My family wasn't poor by any means. My father bought a decent house within his means, and had a significant down payment (he saved money for years), and drove awful old cars. We didn't have medical insurance, and my father made good investments when he could. I look back today and wonder how my parents did it. Today, they are in a great place, financially.

I just wonder how many women felt the same way my mother did...

Dana from The Dana Files.

Equality

Sara Gunderson — Fri, 04 May 2007 03:32:52 -0500

She went on to say that this is a new millennium and women should not be pressed to work outside the home if they have children, and that men are responsible for providing the women with a beautiful home, a brand new mini-van and an allowance for nice clothes. The children should have a well-rounded upbringing, great education and all their needs should be met, she said.

It seems to me that many women have missed that equality works both ways. The caller wanted choices for herself, but denied men choices. She resented the roles that society still tends to assign to women, but had no problem assigning highly restrictive and soul-destroying roles to men. This isn't feminism, this is entitlement.

Sharing Values

Creatively Belle — Thu, 03 May 2007 19:55:34 -0500

What a great collection of thoughts and opinions here with this discussion.

I think the most successful relationships are based on shared values, on what talking easily and often about what matters to each other so communication is open and coming from a shared place. (different to same place)

I think feminism is about choice and equality, not aggression and anger. I think the women of 100 years ago who fought so hard for equality (think of Mrs Pankhurst) would be amazed at the thought of nasty, cruel, selfish actions would be masquerading as feminism

My cousin has gone through a nightmarish divorce where his ex wife has made the most horrible allegations that have gone through the courts (where they have been found false) and she is harming the children with the insecurities she is creating for them but the system prefers putting children with mothers rather than fathers. I completely agree there needs to be more balances and equality in the family court processes and results.

It would be better for these particular children to be with their father than mother but changing the system is hard and I don't know if it will be possible before the children reach adulthood and start getting some counseling help of their own to sort out the harm done by a cruel and selfish person.

Whereas equality for women and men would create a better world for adults as well as children. It would mean creating systems that are robust enough to withstand selfish and nasty behavior.

As for ideas on daycare children need the structured development and interaction with peers and I for one don't have a degree in early childhood development and don't know many parents who do. Being able to get to childcare with a well structured program (required by law so that's useful) for sometime each week benefits children. It has no comment on a parent's ability at all, it is about giving children the early development opportunities they need so when they get to going to school they are with or ahead of the pack, rather than at the back.

Remember, a child is raised by a village, not an individual or two.

I can see easily the sense of a stay home parent for the early years but what about once they're at school? What about being part of the income generation for the family then either part time or full time? What about the other parent that's been working all the time to bring in the money, don't they deserve a break? Wouldn't it be fair to share the efforts?

I work from home with my own business, I have a lot of freedom and I created my life on purpose like this and I see how there are the possibilities all round to do this so I am biased about having so much choice because I know it is in abundance.

Just to finish, I saw an interview with a woman who'd been married 60+ years and when asked what had made a successful marriage she said "I married a kind man who didn't drink". Very simple, the kind man part is universal, the drinking bit reflects on her society at her time. Kindness goes a long way.

Smiles
Belinda

Up to 40% Off Fashion Jewelry Sale!

Creatively Belle Blog

PS. What does DH mean?

Ballers = Shot Callers! :D

Bill Cammack — Thu, 03 May 2007 18:19:36 -0500

Yep. That's *exactly* my point, Kristy. :)

Now, either or both people can call shots.... including:

Woman-As-Breadwinner, Man-As-Stay-At-Home-Husband. :D

--
Bill Cammack
Video Editor
BillCammack.com

I don't think that's the conclusion

KristySF — Thu, 03 May 2007 18:10:56 -0500

Chiming in here...

I think Bill's point -- or rather, what I got out of Bill's comment -- is that before, men were the only ones with access to power. Men controlled careers, money, houses, etc. So they were calling the shots. They could say, in effect: "I am the breadwinner, and I am only willing to marry someone who..."

Now that women have access to the same kinds of power (careers, money, houses), they can call their own shots, too: "I am the breadwinner, and I am only willing to marry someone who..."

It doesn't mean she wants someone like herself, it just means she's able to choose. She could be a career-minded person and desire a career-minded mate. Or she could decide that she eventually wants to quit the corporate world to be an at-home mother.

The really key point is that men alone don't dictate roles anymore, and that both women and men can set expectations for their partners beyond Man-As-Breadwinner, Wife-As-Stay-At-Home-Mom.

---
Kristy Sammis
BlogHer's Conference & Event Planner
e. kristy@blogher.org

Joint checking accounts; one

Daily Cents Editor — Thu, 03 May 2007 17:28:11 -0500

Joint checking accounts; one or both of the account holders always (and it can be unconscious) has a sort of "what's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine" frame of reference. Twenty-nine years into my (first) marriage, we have a joint checking account, which I rarely use, and I have my own. I certainly contribute to our combined bills -- as a matter of fact, I'm currently the chief breadwinner -- but I value that the money sits there with my name on it. I understand that not all women feel the same way I do -- and I don't define myself by the money that is there; I just like the, well, empowerment of having it.

Another excellent point of

Dana J. Tuszke — Thu, 03 May 2007 17:13:09 -0500

Another excellent point of view.

Also, if I didn't have money in my own name I'd porbably feel less adequate. But the joint checking acount had both mine and my husband's name on it. Is that not the same? Do I have to have my own secret stash of money to feel liberated? That could be true.

Dana from The Dana Files.

...there's no need now for

Dana J. Tuszke — Thu, 03 May 2007 17:10:03 -0500

...there's no need now for women who already have their own careers, houses, friends and money to accept men that don't meet their specific requirements for a boyfriend or husband.

I never thought of it this way. Do you think career-minded women are only looking for their male counterpart who is exactly like themselves? That's the only way she will feel equal?

Interesting concept to think about, there.

Dana from The Dana Files.

Excellent word: Dominance!

Dana J. Tuszke — Thu, 03 May 2007 17:05:49 -0500

Excellent word: Dominance!

I have an uncle who is very dominant over his wife. It sickens me, but my aunt is supportive of it. She doesn't mind his control in the family.

I suppose that's her choice. Right? I don't know...

Dana from The Dana Files.

Thank you for this resource!

Dana J. Tuszke — Thu, 03 May 2007 17:04:19 -0500

Thank you for this resource!

And I think it's wonderful that you are happy in your role as wife and mother.

I think that if I were able to be home, I would.

But I also like my job. I feel that my job is important. Perhaps I can't make up my own mind either!

Dana from The Dana Files.

Link TextYour Daily Cents An

Daily Cents Editor — Thu, 03 May 2007 17:02:49 -0500

Link TextYour Daily Cents
An argument can be made that women have a sense of entitlement after centuries (millennia?) of societal custom and codified law that prevented them from control of money, land and inheritance.
The sad truth is here, in 21st USA -- and most of the world, for that matter -- we only value what we pay for. And the more we pay for it, the more value it must have.
That has to be the reason Fortune 500 CEOs (about 99% men) make unconscionable salaries with stratospheric bonuses and option packages and hop from job to job -- usually before the bad news is announced.
So, as they said in Watergate, follow the money. Yes, we may have â€œboughtâ€ the liberation con (itâ€™s Orwellian, in the â€œbig lieâ€ sense of things -- liberation is working outside and inside the home), but â€œGod bless the child that has her own.â€ Women need money in their own names -- thatâ€™s the liberation from centuries of being considered chattel.

Husbands, Wives and Equality

Dana J. Tuszke — Thu, 03 May 2007 13:46:23 -0500

On my drive to work this morning, I caught the tail end of a local radio conversation about feminism and marriage.

I don't know how this conversation began, but I listened intently as the male deejay argued with a female caller about the expectations of men and women in marriage.

It seems the female caller was ranting about men's demands of their wives. She fumed about how men expect their wives to be patient, kind, understanding, offer blow-jobs willingly and still be modest and good mothers.

She went on to say that this is a new millennium and women should not be pressed to work outside the home if they have children, and that men are responsible for providing the women with a beautiful home, a brand new mini-van and an allowance for nice clothes. The children should have a well-rounded upbringing, great education and all their needs should be met, she said.

I actually pinched myself to make sure I was really driving in my car and hearing these words.

The male radio personality asked this female caller several questions.

"Isn't the feminist movement about making your own choices? Women have fought for equality in the workplace for years and now you're saying that once you have children you should no longer have to work? Isn't this a bit hypocritical? You fight and fight for what you think you want and now you've got it and don't want it any more?"

"What about helping support your husband and family financially? Is that null and void because you're a woman and men should pay for the mistakes of the 50s and 60s?"

"Because I'm a man, I'm expected to buy my wife a big house, a new car, let her stay at home and I can't have any expectations for her? If I tell her she can stay home, should she not at least clean the house and do laundry and cook meals for me and our children? I go to work and she does what?"

"And if my wife doesn't agree with these tasks, and she doesn't like it, she can divorce me and she keeps the house, the cars and the kids and her new boyfriend can move in and I'm the guy paying for it all? Is that fair?"

"When did our society become so anti-men? Men want to stay home with their children, too. We'd like custody of our kids after divorces. We want these feminists to pay us alimony and child support."

The woman was bent out of shape. She went on to quote feminists Gloria Steinem and Naomi Wolf.

I found myself thinking that perhaps this man was on the right track. Just a little. Before you get crazy on me, hear me out.

In the 1950's it was rare for a woman to work. It was rare for a household to have two cars. Women were homemakers and mothers and men were the bread winners.

Images of Leave It to Beaver come to mind. While this show is somewhat too perfect to be real, it's the reference I think about when discussing the "olden days".

The 1960's brought forth the Sexual Revolution and the Women's Liberation Movement. Women fought for equal rights in government, in the workplace, in choosing when and with whom to have children, and deciding whether or not to get married or to be single.

I often think of the Mary Tyler Moore Show. Mary was a single woman and she didn't seem to mind. She loved the freedom to do what she pleased and date the men of her liking.

Over the course of forty years, women's lives have changed. We know what we want and how to get it.

We stand in no man's shadow. We hold no man in power over us. If we want to have a career we can. If we want to stay home with our children we can. If we want to practice a religion we do. If we choose to be atheist it's okay.

We hold the power over our lives. We are in control of our futures.

We detest when someone comes along and tells us we can't do this, we can't do that, we should do this, we shouldn't do that. We don't like to lose our control.

We fight for our rights. We stand up for what we believe in, because the many women before us did so, and taught us to never give up the fight.

But in the Women's Movement, did we somehow alienate the men? Has our society really decided that men are no longer important and women rule the roost? Is this what feminists were fighting for? Instead of equality, we have a shift in power?

Is it now our turn to make the men suffer? Will there, someday, be a men's movement? Will men fight for the right to stay home with their children while the wives head off to ABC Corporation?

My thoughts about this subject are like a tornado in my brain. I'm surprised I managed to blog them.

I think back to my friend Joel and the rough divorce he went through. His ex-wife, Mindy, was domineering, manipulative and somewhat hostile. She refused to give up any control in the raising of their daughter Alexa, now 8 years old.

Mindy was a nurse until she became pregnant. Before the baby was born, Mindy agreed to work part-time. Once Alexa arrived Mindy refused to work. While this was her choice, Joel had a rough time making ends meet on his income alone. He had to get a second job.

Ultimately Joel believed Mindy's change of mind was a breach of the contract they agreed upon and grew upset. Understandably, so. But as their marriage fell apart and divorce grew near, Joel began to see a side of Mindy he never knew.

She insisted on making all decisions about Alexa. Mindy often grew angry and during the divorce demanded alimony in addition to child support and she got it.

Since Joel's is the sole income and must hold a job to pay child support, he didn't get custody of Alexa and only sees her every other weekend. Holidays are a fight because Mindy believes she should have their daughter at every holiday gathering.

And so, I wonder: Has our society given men the shit end of the stick?

Sure, we have deadbeat dads in this world. We have fathers who have done nothing when it comes to childrearing, and would sooner sign off paternity rights than help to raise their children and pay child support. Sperm donors, my neighbor once called them.

But what about the wonderful fathers out there who have to fight tooth and nail just to be there for their sons and daughters? What about them?

Do we as women really believe we are entitled to the lifestyles we want just because we are female? Do we feel the world, the patriarch, owes us something? Are we defending a movement that we had almost nothing to do with?

Our mothers fought these injustices. They were the first feminists. Are we just following suit because it is expected of us?

When I look at my own marriage I see the following:

My husband and I both work. Dawson is in daycare four days a week. Doug stays home with him on Tuesdays and I'm home on the weekends.

We compromise in our roles as parents and as husband and wife. We each participate in cleaning the house, yard work and other tasks.

While I am the primary decision maker about Dawson's health and welfare, Doug is the primary decision maker about our finances.

However, when one of us has input for the other, we make it our duty to listen and come to an agreement before making a decision. Not one of us is more in power than the other. We are equally responsible for our family and our future.

If I were to stay home and Doug were to continue to work, would I really be put off if he expected the house to be clean and dinner to be made? Probably not, simply because I would want to feel like I am contributing to our marriage and family. But do other women feel this way?

The female caller claimed that women have been controlled for years and it's time for us to stand up and tell men where to go. The male deejay went on to talk about the gripes of women, and made a reference to the "glass ceiling in business".

He said that this wage war in the workplace, women vs. men, is not nearly as common as the inequality men have when it comes to raising their children. That's when I began to see his point.

Yes, women are underpaid in the workforce. I agree with that. But I also believe that men are left hanging in the rafters when it comes to fatherhood. I know many men are in the shadows of their wives when parenting.

I know it is difficult for me to let go of the reigns when it comes to parenting. I like to be in charge of Dawson's well being. In my mind I know that my husband is fully capable of parenting our son and his decision making skills are more than adequate. But it is true that I like to be in control. Is that really so wrong?

The radio guy eventually asked his lady caller if she was married.

"Yes," she said. "I'm married and my husband knows his place."

"Not for long," he replied. "With an attitude like yours, you won't be married for long."

Instead of Mommy Wars, we now have the new Gender Wars.

Contributing Editor Dana J. Tuszke also blogs at The Dana Files. (This entry is also cross-posted there.)