BlogHer - The Dangerous Post for Gender Stereotyped Kids' Products - Comments

How I love to hear that!

Liz Rizzo — Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:06:59 -0500

This made my day:

"While there was some gender segregation (girls played hopscotch and boys played football), there were a lot more integrated games going on than there were when I was a kid."

I personally prefer co-ed activities, and I'm glad to hear about boys and girls playing together.

Liz Rizzo

I blog at Everyday Goddess.

A continuum?

CaseyDawes — Tue, 02 Oct 2007 10:58:30 -0500

The thing is, I think, that it's really a continuum of gender. Oprah had on transgendered teens on her show last week. This is something really relevant to me because while I had two boys, they were very different along the gender continuum. There are "boy-boys" and "girl-girls" and everything in between.

As much as we fight against marketing, it's not going to change until people pay with their pocketbooks. It's overall kid advertising that causes the problems. McDonalds gets them right off the bat and we have advertising all over our schools. In some ways we have (and I include myself in this) turned over our kids lives to marketers. Marketers tell them what is cool and appropriate and it's a long fight to overcome that.

I was substituting yesterday as a PE Aide for some first and third graders. While there was some gender segregation (girls played hopscotch and boys played football), there were a lot more integrated games going on than there were when I was a kid. There is hope, I believe, because of the strength of girl's sports teams and courageous women who are doing out-of-the-ordinary things. Kids learn most by observing.

Casey Dawes
Wise Woman Shining
www.WiseWomanShining.com
http://cdawes.blogs.com/wisewomanshining/

Thanks Grace!

Suzanne Reisman — Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:39:58 -0500

I agree with you 100%, and appreciate your eloquent response.

Suzanne Reisman, Contributing Editor - Feminism & Gender
Campaign for Unshaved Snatch (CUSS)& Other Rants

At the end of October...

Mir Kamin — Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:18:43 -0500

The Daring Book for Girls is being released.

Just thought you'd like to know. ;)

We received a review copy of The Dangerous Book for Boys and really loved it (both gender children did), and while the title does irk me a little, the overall coolness of the book outweighed it (for me). Also, there's entire lines of books aimed at girls which is, I think, great in a lot of ways, so it's hard to really put my heart into complaining about this one book for boys.

But it still bothers me. Great post as always, Suzanne.

--
Mir from WCS
(BlogHer Mommy & Family contributing editor)

Personal: Woulda Coulda Shoulda

Having it all with less: Want Not

Tried To Review It

A Elliot — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:41:48 -0500

I actually had emailed Parent Bloggers Network back when they sent out an email saying they were looking for people to review the book. I really wanted to read it, but I put something in the email saying I was little concerned because right away the title gave me a negative impression of the book. It looked great and I have two boys, but I really hate gender marketing.

What really disturbed me was a meeting I attended last night on raising boys. I have to admit, I haven't found a raising boys book I like yet, but a friend was leading the meeting. Those books should be a post in and of themselves. The whole time I listened to the meeting I kept on thinking that while boys and girls might exhibit things differently, it sounded like every child regardless of whether they were a boy or girl, needed to be encouraged to develop their own interests, talents, and to be spoken to respectively. Unfortunately, this meeting, which was based on a series of books and articles, and the latest research on raising boys,made it seem like this was something unique to boys.
A. Elliot, Formula Fed and Flexible Parenting

"involves putting on the

heivilinj — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 11:53:02 -0500

"involves putting on the pretty dress and then rescuing people and battling the bad guys."

Nice!

I play "Zombies" with a friend's daughter. The main attraction, however, is merely an opportunity to chase each other around saying "Brains!!!" (and she hasn't ever seen a zombie film yet, being only 5).

Jim Heivilin

Was my immediate instinct to

kperfetto — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 11:31:51 -0500

Was my immediate instinct to dislike children's products that seem fun but are "for boys" irrational?

Sorry if this is a little disjointed...

I don't think so. Kids are far savvier than given credit for, and I know for a fact that when I was a kid, I'd be less able to pick up a toy if it were directly marketed to a boy, despite my mom's best efforts.

Who else grew up with a segregated playground? Boys on one side, girls on another. And of course, the basketball court was on the boy's side. We were, literally, pushed back to the girl's side. And not just by the boys, but the teachers too. I don't know where this fits it, but I wish one of us (or better yet, all of us) could have challenged it. We half-heartedly tried, but nothing changed. That was only 25 years ago.
Available Light & Five Dollar Radio

It's All Important

Grace Davis — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:48:56 -0500

How we raise our boys and girls is interconnected with the seemingly larger issues of domestic violence, contraceptive rights, economic equality, institutionalized sexism, etc. Child rearing is never trivial.

As far as prioritizing issues for gender equality, feminism is holistic and all encompassing. One issue informs and impacts the other. There is no issue that's more important than another.

Further to marketing - talk about dangerous. Yes, it makes business sense to market denture glue to older consumers. But, marketers can do a better and more creative job in selling to parents and children. For example, there is little acknowledgment in the toy industry that their products have crossover gender use. And that's poor business sense.

Finally, I know what it's like to be ticked off on behalf of your kids. Every single day, I have to find a way to impress upon my daughter of her self-worth and respect. Now that she's a teen, the media and marketers have targeted her mercilessly, telling her that she must be skinny, wear skanky clothes and act flat out sexy. Yeah, I'm ticked, too.

Grace Davis
Contributing Editor, Life/Elders
State of Grace

I think it's super important.

Liz Rizzo — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:48:46 -0500

A friend of mine has a little girl and when she was little he was constantly telling me he was having to fight what she was being taught about what "girls" do and "boys" do. As in, "I want to do that, daddy, but girls don't do that."

Thankfully, she had her dad to tell her she can do and be whatever she wants.

Why, why, why, why, why couldn't it have been "The Dangerous Book for Kids"? Those activities ARE NOT gender specific, and there's no need for them to be.

Well, hearing about what's in "The Daring Book for Girls" pretty much clinches it, right? Sigh.

We're not losing anything when we let people develop into who they want to be without teaching them "what boys do" and "what girls do."

Liz Rizzo

I blog at Everyday Goddess.

I think it's an important issue

Elana Centor — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:56:13 -0500

When my son was five, his friend John came over for a play date. I had the legos rand the brio set ready. Noah said to John," What do you want to play?" John responded, " Let's fight!"

And before I could say Whoa Nelly, they were wrestling throwing each other on the ground and laughing the whole time.

I was stunned. It was a learning moment.

My daughter wasn't interested in fighting. She also wasn't interested in Polly Pockets, dolls or playing princess. At age five she liked listening to JImi Hendrix, watching TV and having people read to her.

When I filled out her application for sleep away camp I said "she's not a girly girl.
There were many many things that they both enjoyed: skiing, tennis and horseback riding. And both my son and daughter had friends they were on different places on the spectrum. It is those children that I am concerned about.

Since I haven't been watching kids TV for many years I don't know how Barbie and Polly Pockets and all the other "girl" toys are marketed and promoted. I can only assume that they don't have boys in the commercials. Gender targeting it part of the toy business.

I agree with Amy, I would be happier if the Book Had been gender neutral. While I do believe boys and girls approach activities differently, I would hope the message would be there isn't one right way or wrong way to be a boy or a girl and that message seems to have gotten lost with the ever swinging pendulum.

elana
Blogher Contributing Editor,Business&CareersFunnyBusiness

Can I play with Barbies?

christinemoers — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:32:58 -0500

My eight-year-old son sat for an hour the other night, outside his sister's room ... where she and a friend played with Barbies. He so desperately wanted to play, but was afraid the friend would make fun of him.

I finally walked through and said, "Hey! Don't you need someone to be the boy Barbie? You should ask your brother!" It took him about .000002 seconds to accept their offer.

They didn't even notice when he slowly migrated over to the girl dolls and started brushing their hair.

Christine

www.christinemoers.blogspot.com

Celebrate Boyhood

divine wife — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:14:09 -0500

But not at the expense of girlhood. Can't we just celebrate both--uniquely? The existence of one doesn't mean "to the exclusion of the other." I have three sons and guess what? They are each uniquely rough and tumble and superhero and truck and ball and fight and destroy. Despite all my "Free to be you and me" efforts. And the fact that there are toys and books marketed to their tendencies? Makes me happy. Just as I am happy that tampons are marketed to menstruating women and denture cream is marketed to the elderly. So some girls like trucks. So what? Let them play with trucks. But most boys like trucks so it makes sense on a marketing level to advertise trucks that way.

And another thing, haven't we got a FEW more important issues to debate on the Feminist Front these days? I don't know, ummm, domestic violence? Contraceptive rights? The prevalence of poverty among women? An equal rights amendment a couple hundred years past its time? This argument is divisive and trivial and as the mother of only sons, it ticks me off!

I bought the book...

lmilbrand — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:12:11 -0500

I did buy this book for my nephew, and plan to buy a copy for my daughter when she's older. I plan to discuss the title with my daughter, and how it's a stereotype, but that girls can do anything boys can do.

Right now, my daughter is 3 and buys into the whole Disney Princess thing (all it took was one hand-me-down nightgown for her to fall victim), so we're going with it, but with some modifications. She's only been exposed to the Beauty and the Beast and Mulan moviewise, because neither is a terrible role model (you don't see either of them waiting around for a prince to come in and rescue them). As a result, her way of playing princess involves putting on the pretty dress and then rescuing people and battling the bad guys.

The Mamahood
http://themamahood.typepad.com

psht

super des — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 08:53:07 -0500

I'm more of a "girl" now than when I was little. I rarely wore dresses, didn't own a Barbie, and always got the "boy's" Happy Meal at McDonald's around xmas time. (Do they still do that?) Now I do my hair & makeup and wear nice clothes instead of romping around in the trees or the dirt. But that might also be because I'm a grownup.

I say let kids pick their own toys. If you try to avoid something because it's "for" the other gender, your kids will just want it all the more.

The Dangerous Post for Gender Stereotyped Kids' Products

Suzanne Reisman — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 06:54:32 -0500

Monday afternoon, as I ran on a treadmill at my gym, out of the corner of my eye I noticed a commercial for Tonka toy trucks on the overhead TV. Was I delirious from my (slow) long run or did dehydration caused me to hallucinate, because I swore their new slogan read "built for boyhood." That seemed way too ridiculous to be true, so I shrugged it off until I got home and noticed the latest best seller list. For the umpteenth week, The Dangerous Book for Boys by British authors Conn Iggulden and Hal Iggulden, hovered near the top of the list. Maybe I wasn't overcome by endorphins when I noticed the Tonka ad. I did a quick internet search, and Feminist Philosophers confirmed it: explicitly gendered toys are back, baby!

Was my immediate instinct to dislike children's products that seem fun but are "for boys" irrational? Mom Unplugged seems to think so. Because of the high quality content, she plans to use The Dangerous Book for Boys with both her son and daughter, and doesn't care whether the book's title says it is "for boys:"

Call me a wimp, but for better or worse, I am a very non-confrontational person and I really don't want to get into a feminist, nature vs. nurture, girls vs. boys, or any other kind of debate here or anywhere else. All I can say is that the title does not bother me in the least. Might some girls like this book? Yes. Might some boys NOT like this book? Yes. Could/should the authors have called it something else? I don't know. End of subject. I want to talk about the book, not the controversy.

The whole point is simple: kids should be out in nature and experiencing life, not sitting in front of a screen. The aim of this book is to provide a little non-preachy inspiration and some fun ideas for things to do with your kids that don't involve a screen or a joystick.

I'm not convinced it's so simple, though. (Then again, I don't mind getting into a feminist, nature vs. nurture type of debate, so what did you expect?)

Like Mom Unplugged, Amba at AbivaBlog also supports the ideas behind The Dangerous Book, although she is a bit cautious about its unintended effects on girls:

… I'm all for it. All for boys being boys in the ancient and honorable way. I think this book is a great thing… [however] People who acknowledge boys' need for rough-and-tumble, acted-out fantasy adventure, invention, skill, and physical risk have an alarming tendency to want to set up an opposite for girls -- necessary, it's implied, to help boys define what it is to be a boy -- that involves playing house, doll tea sets, frilly clothes, and a lot of domestic and social sitting around.

Now, a lot of girls may well be into a lot of that, some of the time. However, the ones I've known have also, without exception, been into running around like maniacs, riding bikes, climbing trees, getting dirty, sledding, hanging upside down from the jungle gym . . . even the odd acted-out fantasy adventure. Unless, that is, they were taught that they mustn't.

Leave this phenomenon alone, let boys enjoy it and thrive on it, as long as pushing girls back to the other extreme is not part of the program. I note that a number of people are cheerfully buying The Dangerous Book for Boys for their daughters, and why not? Girls will pick out from it the stuff that interests them.

While it is true that many adults are ignoring the book's intended audience and giving it girls, I am not so sure that it is as innocently accepted by girls as Amba is. Just reading Feminist Philosophers post about how the Tonka ads made one girl feel like she had no right to play with trucks confirmed in my mind that there is something insidious about this whole "for boys" only marketing. I'm not the only one objecting to this, either.

Amy at Pasquinade wrote in response to an Ellen Goodman column that appeared in The Boston Globe that criticized the recent hype of boys as neglected in favor of girls:

I didn't have an entirely positive reaction to The Dangerous Book for Boys, either. A friend emailed me after seeing the book on the Today show, recommending I buy it for a boy I babysit. After reading the synopsis, I got a little angry. Why shouldn't the boy's sisters learn how to tie knots or make paper airplanes? If the authors had titled the book The Dangerous Book for Kids, I probably would have bought it, but the entire book implies that these hobbies are for boys exclusively. The idea that girls shouldn't like Latin or want to know about important historical battles put me off enough where I bought the boy a different gift.

…she and I can team up to torch a crate of The Great Big Glorious Book for Girls when that shipment comes in. Stage faints and "fairy flower parties"? Fuck that. If you need me, I'll be teaching little girls how to hog-tie their younger siblings.

Yes, that's right – since the first book is obviously for boys, one had to come out for girls. And it includes instructions on giggling at sleep-overs. It also led to books on "How to Be the Best at Everything" – one book for girls, and another for boys. I don't have kids, but even my staunchest feminist friends who do have told me that there are some innate differences in how boys and girls develop. I'm pretty sure that these don't necessitate separate books on how to be good at things or how to fly a kite, though. These products merely exploit social fears of what it means to be a boy or a girl, and drive wedges between us, which suits a lot of people just fine, thank you very much.

Seriously. Google blog search "dangerous book for boys" feminist. A good portion of the search results include blogs with fine statements like, "The American debut of Conn and Hal Iggulden’s The Dangerous Book for Boys marks how far we have progressed from the feminist Dark Ages of a couple of decades ago." Maybe not…. Even scarier:

The title of this post is "Die Feminists, Die!" because as someone else said ideas don't die only the people that hold them do. So let's stop teaching kids that boys and girls are exactly the same and then wait 50 years for the people that believe differently to go the way of the dodo. It is mind boggling that anyone took them seriously in the first place.

Coz, you know, feminists don't ever have kids or anything, and all boys are exactly the same just like all girls are. No variation at all, no siree. My pretty little pink dolly-playing, math-hating, quiet mind is indeed boggled.

Suzanne loves baseball, doesn't shave (so therefore is a boy coz girls, like, hate sports and are hairless), and also blogs at Campaign for Unshaved Snatch (CUSS) & Other Rants