BlogHer - Abortion debate: Man Spikes A Woman's Drink With RU-486, Causing Her To Lose Her Pregnancy. - Comments

Right on

Suzanne Reisman — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 23:51:11 -0600

I think Catherine and the other commenters pretty much covered everything I was thinking about this case, although I also happen to find fetal homicide laws disturbing and just because they exist, I don't think this vile poisoner should be charged with murder.

Suzanne Reisman, Contributing Editor - Feminism & Gender
Campaign for Unshaved Snatch (CUSS)& Other Rants

Good point.

Catherine Morgan — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 19:42:22 -0600

Good point...You're right, it is the same thing.

Thanks for commenting.

Contributing Editor Catherine Morgan
also at CatherineBlogs.com and The Political Voices of Women

Nuther point

jjulesss — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:47:26 -0600

This one is from my partner:

I wonder if everyone would get it if a man was drugged and given a vasectomy? It's the same thing.

Yep

jjulesss — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 14:52:29 -0600

If a man doesn't want to pay child support he controls where his sperm ends up. I didn't have a son, but I have nephews. My sister taught her son to be responsible ... in so many ways ... but especially to not unintentionally produce children. Don't leave contraceptives up to the woman and don't necessarily trust that a woman will be truthful. Simply use a condom until he wants to produce kids. So simple. Of course if he did produce kids he would have to pay, and preferably take a responsible part in their lives. Why is this not being pushed more?

I agree

heivilinj — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:44:51 -0600

With everyone so far, a woman's body is her own and anyone else dictating to her what and how to deal with it is an intrusion on her freedoms.

As for Missouri, this place is sometimes bass ackwards. We had a proposition on the ballot last year to deal with the cloning and it's attendant research issues. It passed (thankfully) and immediately afterwards the forced pregnancy crowed started working on a "clarification" of the "voters position" to basically try again (to ban cloning). It would be funny if it weren't so serious.

Sometimes I want to find some of these folks and ask them "How do you not fall down more?".

Jim Heivilin

Forced abortion and forced pregnancy both horrible

Kuri — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 10:47:06 -0600

I agree - this is an assault. Whether it's forced abortion or forced pregnancy, taking away a women's agency over her body is an assault.

Liz has is right, too. Fetal homicide laws are unnecessary because assaulting a woman is already a crime. I'd hate for assaults against non-pregnant women to be considered legally "less bad" than assaults against pregnant women, which is why I oppose any attempts to put fetal homicide laws on the books up here.

- Kuri
Thought, Interrupted By Typos
http://www.thoughtinterrupted.ca/

You're right. This is a

Marlene Dotterer — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 10:40:15 -0600

You're right. This is a clear violation and attack on a woman. He should be prosecuted vigorously. NO ONE has the right to slip an abortion mickey in a woman's drink. Not even her mother could to it.

If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research.
-Albert Einstein

A fetus is part of a woman's body.

Liz Rizzo — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 09:38:31 -0600

I don't like the man being charged with murder of a fetus, which strikes me as rather disingenuous. I agree that what he's done is violate the woman by forcing a medical procedure against her will - much like if you woke up and your kidneys were gone. The whole argument of "shouldn't a man have equal rights to abortion" is flawed because it's a simple fact that the fetus is inside the woman. If a man doesn't want a baby, he should take charge of his birth control. If a woman doesn't want a baby, she should do the same thing, but physiology gives her the ability to terminate her pregnancy as well.

As for the ballot initiative in Missouri, what a wholly insulting way to try to outlaw abortion. Kinda ties into the philosophy around not believing in prosecuting women for having abortions when you at the same time believe that abortion should be illegal.

Liz Rizzo

I blog at Everyday Goddess.

Abortion debate: Man Spikes A Woman's Drink With RU-486, Causing Her To Lose Her Pregnancy.

Catherine Morgan — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 23:15:54 -0600

A man purposefully puts RU-486 in a woman's drink, causing her to miscarry, not just once but twice (CNN News clip).

This is truly a heinous crime and an affront to a woman's right to choose. A woman's reproductive rights are sacred, and just as no man should be allowed to force a woman to have a child if she is not ready, no man should be able to force her to lose a child if she is choosing to keep it.

This man (and I use that term lightly) should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, sending a clear message to any man or woman who would consider poisoning a pregnant woman for the purpose of having her miscarry.

Since Wisconson is one of 37 states that has a fetal homicide law, one of many charges this [sorry excuse for a] man will face is attempted first-degree intentional homicide of an unborn child.

However, I think the main focus of this case should be the violation of the woman, although I have no problem with this man being charged with murder since the state already has a law that allows for that. Since there are many other charges as well as murder here, I would leave it up to the judge or jury to decide the extent of this person's punishment. Regardless of the charges, I would hope that this case be treated very seriously, and have serious consequences.

It seems odd to me, but many are taking this clear criminal violation of a woman, and turning it into a debate over abortion. For example...If a woman has the right to terminate her own pregnancy...Why shouldn't a man be able to secretly and maliciously terminate a woman's pregnancy if that's what he wants to do? No, I'm not making this stuff up...

This is from a post at Homeaker's Guide to the Galaxy...

What truly bothers me, is that the man is being charged with intentional homicide for giving his girlfriend an abortion pill. Why is it, that when a woman willingly chooses to abort her baby by taking that same pill, is it alright, and perfectly legal? Why is it, that a woman can choose to have her baby murdered by a "doctor", and it is perfectly legal? Yet, a man, who is the father of that same child, cannot have the same say in the child's life?

And this is what Milwaukeean Rhapsody thinks...

I guess I don't understand how this man can be charged with homicide if it is abortion is considered legal, and fetuses are not considered real people.

Don't get me wrong - I am completely Pro-Life. And I'm quite satisfied that this man could potentially could be charged with homicide.

But if he is indeed charged with first-degree intentional homicide, shouldn't every other woman who chooses to kill her unborn child also be charged with the same? This seems to be a double standard of incredible proportions.

Also See Jill Stanek's take on this case.

Although I respect all of these women and their right to their opinion on the subject of abortion, I think the premise of their posts are somewhat flawed. Let me explain...

This is not a case of...If she can do it why can't he? It's a case of...A personal violation against a woman, not unlike rape. I woman can choose to have sex with as many men as she likes, but that doesn't mean she loses the right to to say no. Also, if a woman has sex with a man for ten nights in a row, and on the eleventh night he drugs her and has sex with her without her knowledge...that is rape not consent.

Are ya with me?

A woman has the right to tell her doctor to tie her tubes after having a cesarean to prevent future pregnancies. However, her husband can not have the doctor secretly perform the procedure without the woman's consent, nor can the husband stop the woman from having the procedure. This is all part of that pesky thing called reproductive rights, as well as the fact that there is a law that prevents both men and women from having procedures done on them without written consent. And yes...This RU-486 drug is consider a procedure.

The life of a fetus cannot be separated from the life of the pregnant woman. This is unique in medicine and law. No one can create a set of medical principles or legal principles giving a right to life to the fetus, because by doing so, inevitably the woman's rights become limited. -- from the FWHC

This is from a post at Feministing...

A new ballot initiative in Missouri is seeking to essentially outlaw abortion. (H/t Cara)

The proposal would require doctors to extensively review the medical literature on abortion and investigate each patient’s background and lifestyle. It would require doctors to certify that the abortion was better for the woman than a full-term pregnancy.

Because when deciding what's best for a woman, the idea of actually trusting the woman herself is silly-talk. That's what doctors, legislators, and men are for. I suppose we shouldn't be shocked that they're going the "women are too stupid to know that when they get abortions, they're getting abortions" route, but it's still frigging infuriating. The proposal would also allow women to sue doctors if they later regretted their decision to terminate a pregnancy and would offer no rape or incest exception.

I know I can not be the only one that feels that this case is not an issue of abortion...but rather a case of a man violating a woman in a horrific way. What do you think about this issue?

Contributing Editor Catherine Morgan
also at CatherineBlogs.com and The Political Voices of Women