BlogHer - Legalize Prostitution - Comments

It so should be legal!

prayforsun — Sun, 26 Apr 2009 22:17:50 -0500

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If prostitution was legalized, many people would
be much safer and healthier. Research has found that engaging in sex with a
prostitute in now the third most common way for an American male to contract
the HIV/AIDS virus. If it
was regulated, then advisors, hired by the government, could come into the
brothel and make sure the women are working in sanitary conditions and that
they are using condoms and birth control and could make the women get monthly
checkups in the form of a blood test. In Nevada,
where prostitution is legal, the amount of HIV/AIDS cases that are found is
zero as of 1989. In Newark,
New Jersey, where it is illegal,
60% of the prostitutes have HIV/AIDS. Regulation could seriously help the spread of
HIV/AIDS decrease. The government could supply the prostitutes with condoms so
they do not have an excuse to not use one or have to buy them if they do not
have the money. The government could supply the women with less expensive birth
control so there are no unwanted pregnancies that end up in abortions. Also,
the licensed bordellos in Nevada
try to compete with each other and they try to sell strong incentives to pick
their bordello. The bordellos try to advertise that their place is the cleanest
and safest and with all the competition, the spread of HIV/AIDS will decrease.

Hi all. I found your Blogs

ScienceNerd — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:53:53 -0600

Hi all.

I found your Blogs on an internet search for Legalize Prostitution. Does anyone here know of an organization lobbying the state and federal governments to legalize prostitution? If so, shoot me an email at cedmund@csc.com.

Thanks!

The world is so screwed up!

mommyof3tots — Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:54:53 -0600

There are only a handful of mammals on this planet that mate for life. Humans just happen to be one group that are supposed to be included in that handful. Go figure! Women have the right to terminate a living thing, whether you want to call it cells, fetus, or baby, but don't have the right to decide to accept money for letting a man insert his penis into her body? GIVE ME A BREAK! It doesn't have to be a big deal and it doesn't have to be emotional. A hole is just a hole, people. We should have a don't ask, don't tell policy like the military. I don't care what ANYBODY does with their body, sexually, as long as they aren't molesting or raping. End of discussion. Besides, most people would definitely be surprised at what goes on behind closed doors. The same people who make laws against prostitition are not prudes. They are doing kinky stuff too, it's just not advertised. Our own president was doing things with cigars that no one could have ever imagined. Whether it is legalized or not, sexually perversity will still exist. Last but not least, all men pay for sex one way or another!

We all Do It Differently (F*#K that is.)

alyssaroyse — Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:25:39 -0600

Thanks for your reply also. Maybe it's a time and place thing - I am a young(ish) woman in a liberal city raised by liberal parents with a very liberal circle of friends. The women in my life are as wildly and passionately kinky and horny as the men I know. (Maybe more so.) So I just don't believe that there is an inherent difference between the sex drives of men and women. Not based strictly on gender anyway.

Really, I know as many women who fuck just because it feels good as i do men who long for a deeper connection. (And I think that most of us are closer to the center of that spectrum than not.)

I think that we are all just wildly varied in our proclivities, and the only way to get our needs met - so that we are not deceiving our partners to find it elsewhere, without our partners at our side - is to all first be honest about what we want and then find someone with whom we are sexually compatible.

At least in my happy little world, there are myriad ways to get ones sexual needs met, all of which are consensual and open and honest and fun, and none of which involve deception (even if they also don't involve monogamy.)

And that's okay..... As long as everyone is on the same page. Consent involves everyone involved, whether they're "doing it" or not. And yes, it's tough, but no tougher than being honest and committed in every other aspect of a relationship.

That said, on the question of prostitution, I still see no good reason why sex-workers shouldn't be legal, protected and respected. The sex isn't the problem, it's the lying so often associated with prostitution that's the problem. But i don't see how it's really all that different from getting a massage or a chiropractic adjustment - and those who are really good at it do indeed know things that most people don't! It is a major part of our society, and if consent adults are part of it, it should be regulated, taxed, protected just like any other job.

And, just as any other industry, we should do everything within our power to make sure that the abusive criminal element stays out of it. But that criminal element is in every industry, so it's not special just to sex.

And again, everything I say is predicated on the open and honest communication between intimate partners. Lying is never okay.

But yes, I am sure we agree more than we disagree.....

____________

Alyssa Royse

Just Cause It: A Web Site To Save The World

Start Her Up: A Blog for Women Entrepreneurs

I think we agree - for the most part

ebleas — Sun, 21 Dec 2008 08:54:52 -0600

Hi alyssaroyse -

Thanks for your reply. Okay, perhaps mine was also a bit of an overstatement as well, but we just seem to have different views here when you state "Men and women do not have inherently different sex drives." I have no doubt that most women do indeed enjoy sex, but the reasons men and women seek sex are different. Men have more of a physical need; women have more of an emotional need. Yes, you will always find exceptions to the rule. But arguing a point on exceptions is something I try not to do. So, I was not arguing differences in frequency as much as I was pointing out differences in why we seek to have sex in the first place. If both men and women had truly equal sex drives, I dare to say prostitution (and least woman dominated) would not exist.

And I was not for a moment "blaming this on women". I'm not sure why it came off that way, but I'll accept that it did. As I stated in my previous post, I blame the extreme religious rule we have been living under since Bush took office and the religious right came to political and social power. We are constantly bombarded with call to abstinence and the like. The abortion debate threads are filled with such statements like "if a woman is not ready to have a baby, she should not have sex!".

But I think that we agree here more than we disagree. I would love to see the day when sex in general is un-demonized, and "alternative" life-styles are more accepted. I would love to see the day when women feel more free to express their sexuality without the baggage and demons that accompany it today. And I agree that the most important aspect is open-ness in a relationship. We need to express our needs and desires openly and treat everyone in a kind and courteous manner.

You're right, women hate sex

alyssaroyse — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 18:09:46 -0600

Okay, perhaps that was a bit of a snarky overstatement, but your assertion that "I can't see how it would ever be "unecessary" as long as the difference
between men's and women's sexual drive, outlooks and morals exists," is one of the most aggravating things I ever hear. Men and women do not have inherently different sex drives. People, in general, do. Some people are wild, some are mild, some want it daily, some monthly. Men and women.

When people - men and women - do not have the clarity and courage to be honest with their partners about what their sexual needs are, that is when they look outside of their relationships for gratification. It isn't a gender issue, it's an honesty issue.

If ANYONE gets into a marriage or other serious relationship knowing that their sexual needs will not be met, they are as much "at fault" as the other person.

Society is NOT responsible for anyone being dishonest about their sexual needs with their partners. Does society make it confusing and hard to figure out? Sure. But it's our responsibility to be honest with ourselves and our partners about what we need.

Why do I want prostitution to be unnecessary? Because I want people to get honest with themselves, and their partners, and be able to be accepted and loved and desired for who they are. Whatever that means.

And I have a hard time believing that having people feeling lied to and deceived by their partners is going to do anything to make sexual diversity accepted. Rather, it attaches sexual diversity to the pain of deceit and betrayal.

That said, if consenting adults in relationships want to openly and honestly pursue sexual fulfillment with others, then it should be just legal, whether they pay for it or not. And yes, sex - paid for or not, vanilla or kinky, monogamous or polyamorous - needs to be un-demonized asap. We all do it. We all do it differently. Only thing that matters is that it's all safe, consensual and good. How your neighbor does it is none of you business. :)

(But I can assure you, there are as many women out there who wish their men would "pony up" more often and more creatively than they do. So no blaming this on women!)

____________

Alyssa Royse

Just Cause It: A Web Site To Save The World

Start Her Up: A Blog for Women Entrepreneurs

Supply and Demand

ebleas — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:10:02 -0600

"Among the easiest methods of increasing demand for Prostitution is by making it legal. When demand is increased, the price goes down, and the need for supply becomes imperative; that leads to trafficking."

**********

Um, I think you have your laws of supply and demand confused. In general, when demand for something goes up, the price also increases in the absence of any increase in supply.

But the point of this post I think is to show that if we legalize prostitution in anyway, that will necessarily lead to an increase in trafficking. And, of course, trafficking is a harmful and illegal activity often associated with the prostitution trade.

But for those who would make prostitution illegal solely due to the abusive and illegal associations such as trafficking; consider this.

The selling and consumption of alcohol is directly responsible for about 25,000 deaths every year, many in the form of automobile accidents. So, using the same logic, if we made alcohol sales illegal, we could save countless numbers of lives each year in the US alone. Now who here would be willing to go back to the days of prohibition where alcohol sales were illegal?

I have asked this several times before, and most people say no to this idea of returning to the days of prohibition. And the reason I get back usually centers around the idea that all freedoms in our society carry some price, as harse as that might seem at first glance. Said another way, given any freedom that we currently enjoy, there will always be some group which abuses the priviledge. And the correct response to such abuse is to work to curb or control the abusive elements and still keep the underlying freedom intact.

So, with this in mind, one has to ask why prostitution is so radically different. And I think the answer, sadly, lies deep within the negative stigma our society attaches to sex itself. Thoughts?

"I'd really like to solve

ebleas — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:46:58 -0600

"I'd really like to solve the "prostitution problem" two ways.

1. make it legal
2. make it unnecessary"

**********

I can't see how it would ever be "unecessary" as long as the difference between men's and women's sexual drive, outlooks and morals exists. Women have always "controlled" sex (yes, I know this one will raise some eye brows). But think about who usually has the final say-so in any sexual encounter. This difference exists for a variety of reasons, and it's proabaly not the time or place to get into them in detail. But to your point, I, as a male, would certainly love to see the day when prostitution is unnecessary. But it would be unnecessary do to factors our present sociey would never support, such as the free-er expression of sexuality and sex itself. But after a decade of damage by the extreme religious right, we are now at a point where the woman's sexual liberation movements of the 60's and 70's have been almost totally undone. Sex is now again seen as something dirty, disgusting, immoral and largely considered an animalistic urge on the part of men. Until we can reverse this current trend, prostitution will never be unnecessary.

Sex is Indeed Special

ebleas — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:28:43 -0600

"Also, I don't agree that if you don't support prostitution you also think sex is bad. Not at all. In fact I think sex has a very special place in relationships."

It depends on what you mean by "support prostitution". If you mean you don't see it for yourself, SO, or friends, then there is certainly nothing wrong with that. Those are your feeings, morals and values. But if you mean you don't support it to the point where you would make ILLEGAL for ANYONE to use such servies, then you have crossed an important line.

The reality is that different people have different views on sex and relationships. There are some who feel sex should only be practiced within the confines of a marriage. There is nothing wrong with that particular view; it's just not for everybody. And, hopefully, there is no one here that would seriously suggest we make sex outside of marriage illegal. Then there are also fundamental differences between the way men and women see and treat sex. You, being a woman, have a different outlook on sex compared to most men. Your views and feelings are no more right or wrong than others; it's just a difference in your gender, upbringing, morals and lifestyle.

So, I think it's important for those who are "opposed" to prostituion to clarify if they are against it for themselves or to the point where they would legislate their views onto the rest of society.

"But when degradation and

ebleas — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:13:12 -0600

"But when degradation and harm are the work itself, struggling over labor standards becomes confusing."

But you are equating sex with degradation. Why? If you do, this is certainly your right to think so, but others do not feel the same way. What part of two people having sex (as long as both parties are kind, considerate and respectful) is degrading? I just fail to see the equation here. Any person who feels that sex is degrading under the circumstances outlined above probably already has issues with sex that would manifest themselves even in the absence of monetary exchange.

Also, degradation is in the eyes of the beholder and is always going to be subject to individual values and preferences. Is the fact that a job is considered by some to be "degrading" sufficient to make it illegal? I have no doubt that shoveling human or animal feces 8 hours a day would be considered "degrading" by most. But there are jobs that do entail that. How about dressing up in makeup and a ridiculous costume and dancing around for screaming boys and girls? It's called being a clown. How about cleaning someone's house and toilets and be subserviant to them? It's called being a maid or butler. Again, many people would consider these jobs "degrading".

When you distill away all the other factors away, the only thing left to object to is the sex itself.

Helpful Resources

rescuedwomen — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:24:29 -0500

@ www.rescuedwomen.com

Thanks for your view

rescuedwomen — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:22:15 -0500

Interesting

Yes it is...

rescuedwomen — Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:21:56 -0500

Yes it is--- please watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cqy8uHQbqAA&feature=related

Live Life With No Regrets!

re:legalising prostitution.

blackgrass — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 09:20:27 -0500

I have been really interested reading these posts. especially as they are concerned views from people outside the sex industry, & understandably so, especially with what people are fed with via the media etc.

I am an ex-sexworker from the uk. I was in the industry for 30 years, but left to explore & express other interests. Though I became a dominatrix for the last 20yrs of my sexwork experience, the first 10yrs were at varying levels & I now write/talk about the sex industry to anybody who is interested enough to listen.

The stigma`s given to sexworkers are at the most extreme end of the whole female (especially) sex/fear scale. ie: are you a bad girl or a good girl ethos.

When the media etc discuss prostitution in any way they firstly get most of their information from `street` agancies. Street agencies deal with those who are in choas in some way or in some form of need. Therefore much of the figures/statistics thrown forward are misleading ones. yes, I know there is abuse/exploitation in the industry but as somebody mentioned before it is illegal therefore creating opprtunities for predators of all kinds.

Somebody else mentioned trafficking..but what is trafficking? A "(a) ' Trafficking in persons' shall mean the recruitment, transportation, transfer, harbouring or receipt of persons, by means of the threat or use of force or other forms of coercion, of abduction, of fraud, of deception, of the abuse of power or of a position of vulnerability [interpretative note (63)] or of the giving or receiving of payments or benefits to achieve the consent of a person having control over another person, for the purpose of exploitation. Exploitation shall include, at a minimum, the exploitation of the prostitution of others or other forms of sexual exploitation [interpretative note (64)], forced labour or services, slavery or practices similar to slavery, servitude or the removal of organs;" So just as slavery was abolished the same would go for trafficking once prostitution was & I emphasis `decriminalised` rather than legalised.

To see the difference go to:http://www.bayswan.org/defining.html

It basically means if you decriminalise you have the right to freedom of choice of management. Rather than govermental control in all its forms.

Amsterdam has been mentioned also, but this is not a good example of prostitution decriminalised. many of the women who work behind the windows have to give up 50% of income to tax, another 25% to the window owners..all men. new Zealand on the other hand is a better example of decriminalisation at work. Its been that way for about 5 years now & is working very well.

So many issues have been discussed here but one that stood out was the mention of `would you like your wives, sisters, daughters to do it`...well I am sorry to say human beings as a whole have a bad idea of sex & what it does & does not do, but it must be remembered that it is also your husbands, brothers & sons that enable this industry to exist...`we` just have to be real about sex. We all do it. Some are lucky & have successful relationships, but that is not the case for all. Some people both male & female have affairs others keep it boxed off & business like & go to a prostitute. Some men are too busy to form relationships at times in their lives, others are just not successful in any form of relationships, & again others have physical disabilities too...I can go on & on with the hundreds of reasons anyone may use the services of a prostitute. Repression & control of ones own sexual urges does not work & can cause huge psychological & emotional problems also.

Yes there are huge problems around the sex industry & many should not be in it, but this is the case for many professional & non-professional roles that are not in this line of work.

Prostitutes are also clubbed together with sexually transmitted diseases/drugs/mental health issues etc.

Whereas prostitutes were the front runners in getting safe sex on the open market & it does not take a genius to realsie that it is bad business to be unhealthy in any way. It stops your business & makes you ill. The general public are far more likely to have sexually transmitted diseases than a sexworker.

Drugs are bound to be a issue especially with street workers & that is because they are a mirror on social drug use anyway. Its just that you rarely hear about the policeman/manager/shop owner or any other professional taking drugs, because they do not face such public scrutiny & have such dangerous jobs as sexworkers.

Then theres the so-called past child abuse of huge percentage of sexworkers. As I have mentioned before those that come to agency attention have already got to a stage of either personal unawareness or choas & maybe a large percentage show sexual abuse when young, but what other profession scrutinises the past lives as much as is done with sex workers? these women become `token prostitutes `hung up high to warn others this is what could happen to you if you go down this road. I have contact with hundreds of sexworkers, only a few have said about past abuse & even then they have it in perspective & have moved on with their lives. There are hundreds of thousands of people who have been abused in childhood, that does not make them future prostitutes, nor is it a fair indication of abuse & how it affects us.

No not at all..

snigdhasen — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:40:54 -0500

No Kristy, I didn't mean that. The reason I brought it up here is because some of the comments here seem to be suggesting a free-for-all. That's why I stuck to marriage/commitment.
Plus, this discussion began here, I assume, primarily based on the Spitzer case. Hence the reference.

But the lines we are drawing here are too fine.

I think I could have argued this better face to face. A lot is lost in words. Anyhow, I'll try.

Sure, it's not "illegal" to sleep with your wife's best friend. But it is grounds for divorce. So we do attach some "illegitimacy" to that act.

The point is, you can legalize it only when people can respect it for the thought behind it. But we know that the kind of people who seek out prostitutes (want younger women, virgins, children, etc) are going beyond just finding basic sexual solace.
So, I am not sure that the victims who need help most ---like children ---will see the demand for them reducing.

How much of a dent are we actually making by legalizing it and at what cost?

Also, there is an expectation that women will enjoy similar freedom of sexual expression and men will be happy to deal with it.
Ha! Ha! I don't believe I will live to see that.

So far, men have proven to be territorial. I can do what I want, but wife can't, daughters can't, sisters can't.

That's reality and any laws that are introduced need to take practicalities into account. Which is why I say this is too utopian.

Which is also why the Swedish model has worked. It makes it illegal only for the john.

I would like to see this regulated too. The women suffer too much. But just legalizing it doesn't work. There have to be tons and tons of laws and bye-laws to protect the entire ecology around this business.

And the more the laws, the more the loopholes :(

Add to that the fact that this is a global business.

We have a long long way to go with this.

Thanks!
Snigdha

Legalize Prostitution

Suzanne Reisman — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 20:29:22 -0500

What do professional athletes, construction workers, models, warehouse employees, porn stars, fishermen, and strippers have in common? All of them use their bodies to earn their living. In fact, most of the world's population provides some sort of physical activity for which they are paid. So why should prostitutes be any different?

Those opposed to legalizing prostitution argue that selling sex victimizes women. As Melissa Farley and Victor Malarek wrote in an op-ed piece in yesterday's New York Times, "most women in prostitution, including those working for escort services, have been sexually abused as children." Today's column by Nicholas Kristof offers evidence that is even more damning. He writes:

Studies suggest that up to two-thirds of prostitutes have been sexually abused as girls, a majority have drug dependencies or mental illnesses, one-third have been threatened with death by pimps, and almost half have attempted suicide.

Melissa Farley, a psychologist who has written extensively about the subject, says that girls typically become prostitutes at age 13 or 14. She conducted a study finding that 89 percent of prostitutes urgently wanted to escape the work, and that two-thirds have post-traumatic stress disorder — not a problem for even the most frustrated burger-flipper.

The mortality data for prostitutes is staggering. The American Journal of Epidemiology published a meticulous study finding that the “workplace homicide rate for prostitutes” is 51 times that of the next most dangerous occupation for women, working in a liquor store. The average age of death of the prostitutes in the study was 34.

“Women engaged in prostitution face the most dangerous occupational environment in the United States,” The Journal concluded.

Of course, one of the most obvious reasons that prostitution is so dangerous is because it is illegal. Prostitutes have almost no recourse for crimes committed against them because to seek legal help, they reveal that they are breaking the law themselves. This inability to turn to the law for protection adds extra vulnerability to a woman who is already socially maligned, and possibly abused, addicted to substances, or mentally ill.

In other cases, prostitutes who are caught in the web of sex trafficking are also unable to seek assistance from the very sources who should be protecting them. In most places, the law makes no distinction between a prostitute who was kidnapped and forced into sexual slavery and a prostitute, who for whatever reason, entered the business. This makes trafficked individuals doubly victimized: they can go to prison with their tormentors.

Kristof concludes that legalizing prostitution will only increase the problems found in the sex trade. He cites experiences in the Netherlands, which legalized prostitution in 2000 and found that trafficking flourished. He also noted that Sweden took a different tack: they made it legal to sell sex, but illegal to buy it. This dramatically drove down demand for paid sexual services.

I think legalizing the sale of sex is a good step, but it is only halfway there. It still indicates that there is something wrong with the purchase and sale of sexual acts. As Alyssa Royse commented on Lisa Stone's post about Eliot Spitzer and prostitution:

…we have created a society in which his sexual needs (which were strong enough that he was willing to risk EVERYTHING for them) had to be swept into dark corners and deemed "filth." How must that feel to wake up everyday longing for something deep inside your soul that you - and everyone around you - deems filthy? That's the kind of thing that erodes people. And it makes me sad.

I have friends who are strippers and dominatrix and tantricas, and I absolutely respect their ability to sell their services to people who need and want to purchase them. What makes me sad is that most of their clients don't feel that they can tell their life-partners that they want these things.....

Criminalizing prostitution comes from a deep discomfort with sexual desire. It is a moralistic law that creates as many problems as it sometimes seeks to solve. If we want to end sex trafficking, we have to be honest with ourselves about our human desires and wants. It is the very nature of making normal desires illicit (and "filthy") that allows criminality to flourish in the sex trade.

Legalizing prostitution, providing social services to abused women, drug addicts, and the mentally ill, and severely punishing sex traffickers will go much further toward improving the lives of prostitutes than "protecting" them with law that actually victimize them ever will.

More thoughts on legalizing prostitution at:

Hootchi Cootchi ("More on Client 9")

BlogSheroes (Ask for Facts, Get the Facts")

I Am the Lizard Queen ("Spitzer-related roundup")

All the great comments on Lisa Stone's BlogHer post

Suzanne also blogs at Campaign for Unshaved Snatch (CUSS) & Other Rants

Editor's Note: Comments have been closed due to spam attacks on this post. 7/16/9