BlogHer - Pros and Cons of Hybrid Vehicles - Comments

It makes sense

Vered — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 15:32:55 -0500

To compare within a specific vehicle type rather than group them all together. Just like you wouldn't group SUV and sedan MPG for any other car.

There's a lot of info out there. I will sort through it and make a decision. Sigh. It was easier when I used to pick my cars based on exterior color. :)

Vered DeLeeuw
www.momgrind.com

Here is a little more

Jody DeVere -- Ask Patty — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:30:26 -0500

Here is a little more information about numbers, etc.

If you click to enlarge the "Hybrid Electric Vehicles" chart, it identifies the fuel economy and estimated fuel costs for EVERY HYBRID VEHICLE offered for sale in 2008: http://askpatty.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/ 2008/04/22/hybridmpgfuelcosts.png

I also updated the little chart that compares the hybrid/traditional versions of the three vehicles to include the estimated mpg figures for each car: http://askpatty.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/ 2008/04/23/hybridcostworksheet2_2.png

The EPA fuel economy guide is an excellent resource, as it shows the estimated fuel costs, and MPG for every vehicle for sale in 2008. So if you're trying to decide between vehicles, you can download and review this guide to estimate the difference in costs for each car: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/FEG2008.pdf

I hope this will make the numbers less confusing!

My bike gets awesome MPGs

alyssaroyse — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:04:34 -0500

But our Civic Hybrid - only so / so.

My new goal is NO GAS AT ALL..... looking Smart Car. But until then, yes, hybrid is better, generally than not. I used to be snarky about hybrid SUV's, until i realized that the people who buy them are likely to buy the non-hybrid version of the same thing. So even though i may think it's silly, it's still better. Progress is progress (no matter how small.)

And of course, we still have to look at all the other ways in our life we consume fossil fuels...... cars may be the least of the problem.

___________
Alyssa Royse
JUST CAUSE: A Web Site To Save The World

Start Her Up: A blog for Women Entrepreneurs

Definitely keep researching

Denise — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 07:04:16 -0500

But be careful of information that lumps all hybrids into one lump and says "the average" this or that.

Check out the hybrid SUVs: http://www.hybridsuv.com/

34/30 mpg: 2008 Mazda Tribute (AWD)
34/30 mpg: 2008 Ford Escape (AWD)
34/30 mpg: 2008 Mercury Mariner (4WD)
27/32 mpg: 2007 Saturn Vue Green Line (2WD)
27/25 mpg: 2008 Toyota Highlander (AWD)
26/24 mpg: 2008 Lexus 400h (AWD)
21/22 mpg: 2008 Chevrolet Tahoe (2WD)
20/20 mpg: 2008 GMC Yukon (4WD)

If you remember that est gas mileage is often off by 10 MPGs and then think about lumping all of those SUVs in with the smaller, compact, hybrids (like the Prius and the Honda et al) then yes - the average MPG is only going to be high 20s.

Rather than looking at hybrids as one entity, I would recommend comparing the hybrid version of the TYPE of vehicle you're considering - and go from there.

If you really want an SUV - and are considering the Toyota, then you look at all of the different Highlander options and then look at other non-Toyotas that are similar. That's the kind of comparison that works.

Toyota has this tool that allows you to compare vehicles side by side - I put in 2 versions of the 2wd highlander plus the basic hybrid and it spits out all of the data for all three. The MPG is very similar for all three with highway driving but in the city, the hybrid gets significantly better gas mileage - so if you do city driving and want an SUV - the toyota highlander hybrid might be a better choice. If you mostly do highway, then maybe not.

Anyway - that's the type of comparison I've done - along with renting hybrids from the local toyota dealer and using the hybrids available with Zip Car/Flex Car to see how they perform in my every day life and on long trips. (Did you know it's cheaper for me to rent a Prius from our Toyota dealer for a week than it is to rent a small compact car from a rental car dealer?)

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

Flamingo House Happenings

The numbers in this article are confusing

Karoli — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 00:43:39 -0500

But hybrids aren't really, and I haven't seen a car come close to the Prius' performance that has the same size, room, versatility and comfort factors. Ours held a full drumset and set of congas along with three passengers and still got 48 MPG. Yes, you can find little itty bitties out there that get close mpg-wise, but I wouldn't drive my kids in one of them.

The 22 mpg quoted in this article above most likely applies to the so-called hybrid SUVs, which aren't very hybrid at all. I wouldn't put the Prius in that same league.

However, hybrid technology has much more potential than has been made available. I keep wishing that someone would put some serious pressure on manufacturers to move the ball down the court.

karoli (odd time signatures)

Thanks, I guess?

Vered — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 23:09:39 -0500

But now I'm more confused than ever. :(

I guess I should keep researching this.

Vered DeLeeuw
www.momgrind.com

Thank you

Denise — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:53:18 -0500

Exactly what I'd hoped you'd say, KK! I'd have had to rethink my entire love affair with the Prius if you'd come back with different numbers. And I would not have been happy about that at all.

So if I do buy a car after we move to Chicago - it will be a Prius. But I am considering doing without.... we shall see...

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

Flamingo House Happenings

We average 42-45 mpg

Karoli — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:50:50 -0500

We've had our Prius for a year and a half. For the first year, we had a greater ratio of highway to city driving and got an average of 48mpg. When the ratio changed to more city driving, the mpg dropped to 42.

The keys: 1) change your driving style to pay attention to not speeding; 2) no jackrabbitting starts; 3) make sure tire inflation is correct.

The best situation to be in a Prius is bumper-to-bumper traffic. When we're stuck in traffic, we get about 66 mpg. Love that.

karoli (odd time signatures)

Sure!

Denise — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:42:53 -0500

I've made several trips from Gainesville FL to Charleston SC in a Prius. (5 1/2 hours of freeway)

I've made one trip from Gainesville Fl to Charlotte NC in a Prius. (too many hours to count!)

My partner also drove a Hybrid Honda from Gainesville to Orlando (which is only 2 hours each way, so not a super great test) and she got pretty good mileage out of that too, not as good as the Prius but a lot better than the Subaru we drive all of the time - which does average in the high 20s and isn't a hybrid.

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

Flamingo House Happenings

Interesting, Denise

Diana — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:23:08 -0500

Would you mind sharing how often (and at what lengths) you've driven your Prius on Highways?

I'm not buying it

Denise — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:16:14 -0500

"Hybrids actually promise from 22 at the lowest end to 48 at the highest, with most of them averaging in the high 20s."

I've spent a good bit of time leasing the Prius and I've never gotten anything less than 40mpg whether I'm driving city or highway.

I wonder if the bigger hybrid type trucks aren't skewing the metrics, which means data like this isn't nearly as helpful to the person considering a hybrid as it could be.

(KK - drumsnwhistles - what's your Prius mileage now that you've had yours for a year or so? JoyofSix - how about yours now that you've been driving it for a few months?)

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

Flamingo House Happenings

Hybrid Snobbery

Diana — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:07:13 -0500

The marketing genius certainly has taken social ideals by storm - who'd have thought Americans would suddenly see something so small, so plain, so... ugly as a status symbol after all these years?

Thanks for the informative article, by the way, we're in the same boat as Vered. We're going to have to buy a new vehicle in the next year or two and have been weighing our options. We'd taken a step back from the Hybrid option recently this serves to reinforce that decision a little bit. Luckily, we have time to keep researching before making a concrete decision.

"But hybrids are cool"

Vered — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:57:31 -0500

So this cool image that the hybrid manufacturers created is just marketing genius. I applaud them for that.

Thanks for the info. I need to get a new car and was wondering if I should go the hybrid way this time around.

Vered DeLeeuw
www.momgrind.com

Pros and Cons of Hybrid Vehicles

Jody DeVere -- Ask Patty — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:16:25 -0500

Now that gas prices are hovering around $4 a gallon, many drivers are becoming more aware of their need to cut their gas costs. And with Earth Day upon us, we've been bombarded by messages telling us to make greener choices to help save our planet.

Many people combine these messages and believe that their best automotive choice to accomplish both these goals is to drive a hybrid vehicle, but others question whether that opinion is really true.

Well, we've done a little research to address these questions and present both the pros and cons of the hybrid myth. However, remember: in the end, it is up to each person to determine what's most important to them, as there are many different ways to address your desire for green transportation.

The Hybrid Platform
In case you live in a cave and had never heard of them, hybrid cars utilize both an electric motor and a gasoline-powered engine, as well as a special system to capture braking energy to store in an onboard battery. These systems work together to efficiently power the vehicle so that it uses minimal amounts of gasoline while also producing reduced emissions as well.

Hybrids can save money through improved fuel economy and reduced fuel costs.
As I stated in my opening, gas is expensive. In fact, gas prices have gone up a dollar a gallon in the last 11 months. OUCH! Philip Dunn at PhysOrg.com (http://www.physorg.com/news10031.html) is just one of many who states the familiar opinion: "Hybrids are the most gasoline efficient of all cars." With that in the fore, it's natural for people to think they are the best way to cut fuel costs.

However, while some hybrids promise economy as high as 45-48 mpg, that's still only about 20% to 35% better than the most fuel-efficient gasoline-powered vehicles - like the Honda Civic, Mini Cooper, or Toyota Yaris, which promise 36 mpg. Hybrids actually promise from 22 at the lowest end to 48 at the highest, with most of them averaging in the high 20s. Getting the highest economy figures also usually requires specialized driving techniques to benefit from the hybrid engine's most efficient output. In truth, much of their fuel efficiency comes from improvements in aerodynamics, weight reduction, and by using a smaller, less powerful gas engine. ANY car will get substantially better mileage just by employing these techniques. (Click here http://askpatty.typepad.com/photos/ uncategorized/2008/04/22/hybridmpgfuelcosts.png to view a more legible size.)

Hybrid vehicles cost more up front, but most people assume they will recoup that cost over the life of the vehicle through reduced fuel costs. In the long run, if you do an apple-to-apple comparison, it usually projects out to take many years before this occurs.

Click http://askpatty.typepad.com/photos/
uncategorized/2008/04/23/hybridcostworksheet2_2.png to enlarge the graphic to right that compares the most fuel-efficient automatic transmission versions of the 2008 Honda Civic, 2008 Toyota Camry, and 2008 Ford Escape 4WD against their Hybrid counterparts, and shows the manufacturer's suggested retail price (via Autobytel.com) as well as the EPA estimated fuel economy and annual fuel costs for each vehicle (from www.fueleconomy.gov/). The EPA estimates these costs based on the assumptions that you travel 15,000 miles per year (55% under city driving conditions and 45% under highway conditions) and that fuel costs $3.39/gallon for regular unleaded gasoline and $3.61/gallon for premium. When weighing the manufacturer's cost of entry against the projected annual fuel costs, all of these examples will take at least 8 years to break even.

You don't have to buy a hybrid to get good fuel economy. There are many vehicles that offer fuel economy between 25-30 miles per gallon. For more information, click to download the EPA Fuel Economy Guide to check out estimated fuel costs and published mile-per-gallon ratings for all 2008 vehicles to compare. (www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/FEG2008.pdf)

Okay then, what about their clean, earth friendly emissions?
Well, it has also been stated over and over again that hybrid vehicles can cut emissions by as much as 25% to 35% over most gas-powered models, especially in traffic when they are most likely to be using their clean burning electric motors for power.

That's true; but if reducing tailpipe emissions is your main concern, consider a zero- or near-zero emissions vehicle. The cleanest in this group are defined as Partial-Zero-Emissions Vehicles. PZEVs are 90% cleaner than the average new model year car, have zero evaporative emissions, and usually offer a 15-year / 150,000-mile warranty on its emission control components. No evaporative emissions means that they have fewer emissions while being driven than a typical gasoline car has while just sitting idle.

Many PZEV choices are available in model year 2008, such as the BMW 328i; Buick LaCrosse and Lucerne; Chevy Cobalt and Impala; Chrysler Sebring; Dodge Avenger; Ford Focus, Fusion, Taurus, and Taurus X; Honda Accord; Hyundai Elantra; Kia Spectra; Mazda 3 and 6; Mercedes-Benz C350 and E350; Mercury Milan and Sable; Mitsubishi Galant, Outlander and Lancer; Nissan Altima; Pontiac G5 and Grand Prix; Subaru Forester, Legacy, and Outback; Toyota Camry; Volkswagen Jetta, Rabbit, and New Beetle; or Volvo S40 and V50. These cars aren't usually any more expensive than their other gasoline-powered counterparts.

Hybrids also have a dirty secret that many overlook: their nickel metal hydride batteries and big electric motors. The environment suffers through the mining of the metals required to produce those big batteries and motors, and again when they are disposed of at the end of their life cycle.

But, hybrids are cool!
You might look and feel better making a statement in a hybrid vehicle, but you can accomplish the same thing by taking public transportation, riding a bike, walking, or ride-sharing.

Even though most people think they must choose a hybrid vehicle to be truly eco friendly, be aware that you have other options. Depending on your driving style and budget, you might find you can make an equal contribution to the environment simply by choosing a more economical or more emissions-friendly vehicle.

Jody DeVere
President
www.askpatty.com
www.carblabber.com