BlogHer - Quo Vadis, Israel? - Comments

well wait a minute...

washwords — Mon, 05 May 2008 22:25:35 -0500

I was angry too. very angry. see above. But Dana seems very contrite and quite sincere in her desire to learn more. Before we castigate her, let's try to learn and improve. If someone as clearly well-intentioned and intelligent as Dana can be "duped" in this way, how are the many with less education, resources, and fabulous blogger friends, supposed to find their way?

Dana, your mistake was NOT in reading the book, or any book. When you begin reading more on the history of the Jewish people, and the Holocaust in particular, you'll see that censorship, restricting the freedom of anyone (even/especially the authors of books like these) is no friend to the Jews or any minority group or oppressed group.

Your "mistake" may only have been in not reading MORE/ asking more/ learning more. I for one give you credit though for not closing comments on this subject and being so responsive to each and every one.

IMHO, that's how learning and healing really begin.

washy

http://washwords.wordpress.com

washwords.dc@gmail.com

yep, on all points

washwords — Mon, 05 May 2008 22:15:35 -0500

wow. while dana you seem like an intelligent, intellectually curious (young? I'm guessing) woman and I commend you for that, which is why I'm (and apparently lots of others here) are even more disturbed that you took this as a "fact-based book" that gave you "an understanding of the Jewish people."

I am quite sincere as a Jewish youngish woman myself that I do appreciate you admitting your ignorance in this area and desire to learn, but you could spend a lifetime on this and still not understand it all, some have!)

I basically agree completely with everything Nerd's Eye said above and I have a feeling (since you're top viewed post on blogher) you're hearing a lot of critiques and "helpful" suggestions, so I'll keep it brief and simply say, please please please read more from left /right/americans/israelis etc etc. etc.

And do keep asking questions and bringing this up so we can all discuss. I certainly don't claim to be an expert myself. Like you, Im embarrassed at how little I know, really, perhaps doubly so because I AM jewish.

But I do know suggesting we gosh-golly just move somewhere else is hurtful and upsetting, not unlike the feeling i got in the pit of my stomach from some youths from a church group with "sharon=hitler" signs they couldn't possibly have understood.

I also know that the basic question you asked in catechism class is at the root of this all and deserves, but doesn't yet have a better answer. Why do they hate each other? Because. We all have a LOT of studying/writing / learning/listening to do before we can hope to come close to understanding.

thanks for thinking about this and taking the heat I suspect you are!

washy

http://washwords.wordpress.com

washwords.dc@gmail.com

I do believe....

obvious_child — Sat, 03 May 2008 09:11:34 -0500

I said correct me if I am wrong. Did you skip past that part?

So correct me!

It was late at night when I saw this post and didn't have time to whip out my bible to be accurate. I knew the three religions came from the same person, I just had the person wrong.

So, there's only ONE thing wrong with my post. The rest is accurate. Thank you for correcting me but -don't say EVERYTHING is inaccurate.

Jesus was a Jew. Christianity took about 30-70 years after Jesus' death to begin to form through the early church (it didn't form over night), Israel IS a land that is of great importance to both groups, there IS no easy resolution to this conflict, and you DO need to look at ALL sources (bible, koran, talmud, Greek writing, ANYTHING to expand your knowledge). Cross-check the dates, the events, and see both sides of the matter.

Is encouraging someone to form their own opinion instead of going to some "self-proclaimed intellectual" wrong?

So many things wrong

lilmommythatcould — Sat, 03 May 2008 07:31:58 -0500

THere are so many things wrong with your post I do not know where to start- go back to your bible and read the story of Abraham & Sarah. The Jewish, Christian and Muslim faiths are Abrahamic religions.

I have a feeling more people will object to your post- heck I might be wrong but to me it sounds like you are using the Christian bible as a history book of the World instead of a history of a small part of the World.

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit

obvious_child — Fri, 02 May 2008 23:16:41 -0500

Oh dear.

A large problem of western-centric historical thinking is that people are not taught the histories of other places throughout the world.

History is exactly that... a story. Stories tell the triumphs, the tribulations, the conquors, the upheavals, etc.

So - when North American schools focus on North American histories, you really have no idea that there are events elsewhere in the world that affect how you live your life here.

9/11 is only a smart part of it. It goes much further than that! It's only a fraction of something "over there" that affects "over here".

We (as a people) have forgot that we ALL derive from the stories of the bible, regardless of our "current" religion. It began with Adam and Eve, Cain, Abel and Seth. I may be incorrect (someone please correct me if I am wrong) but - Adam, Eve, Abel and Seth began the lineage of the Jewish people. Those descendants from Cain began the lineage of the Muslim people. And from the Jewish lineage at least three distinct groups formed: the Jews, the "Christians" and the Messianic Jews.

The Jews from what I understand follow parts of the old testament. At the time of Jesus and His disciples, He was a Jew. The term "Christianity" only became popular afterwards as a way to differentiate as the early church formed. And the Messianic Jews? They are Christian Jews who believe in the the laws of the Jews and that Jesus was the Messiah they were awaiting!

I may very well be wrong - please no one flame me, but - as I started this post with Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit -- I come forward with some knowledge and a desire to know more.... meek with understanding, a desire to inherit knowledge.

Dana - I believe in the end, this is really what you were writing about. Showing your meekness with a desire to inherit knowledge.

The best way to figure out things is to educate yourself in the religions. It's been years since I did this properly and I will definitely in the near future read up more. The Bible, the Torah and the Koran are good places to start. From there, you can begin to see where the conflicts begin and then search upon those conflicts. You'll quickly see how such a small area of land is such a hotbed of fighting and controversy.

There's no easy resolution for the conflict. Everyone has their own idea of how it could be "solved".... but essentially it boils down to a few things. "How can you have an estimated ten million people of two major religions share land that is important to both of them?"

If you figure it out, let me know :)

I'm thinking it has to do with compassion, understanding, tolerance, respect and.... forgiveness.

I wish you the best and don't let this eat at you. Instead, let it inspire you to learn more about a part of the world few understand.

A word to the wise? Avoid mainstream journalism and go straight to the source -- it can be biased and that's not what you need when you're looking for "the truth".

Obvious child
(From Canada, not Jewish or Catholic nor Muslim... just Christian with an appreciation for all cultures because I believe in the end, we're all really worshipping the same higher power)

Dana, I don't know you

Trixamina — Fri, 02 May 2008 12:48:42 -0500

and you don't know me. I am not a popular or noteworthy blogger. I've been at this for a little over a year...I am but a lowly mother, hanging out in the blogosphere

I've read almost to the end of the comments and can take it no more.

I'd like to send out a compliment for sticking with this and coming back time and time again. I am sure you cringe at the thought of visiting this post or writing others. I absolutely feel for you.

The lack of compassion for you, is appalling to me.

I came here from Mocha's post and am glad I came.

I walk in the world as a white girl, raised straight, lesbian for the last 20 some odd years. Raised in a working lower/middle class, mostly white, recovering Catholic...Of these things, I feel fairly safe to talk.

Other things, I have to ask questions, observe, read, learn. I make the assumption that everybody else is in the same boat- Unless we walk in the shoes of others how else are we to learn???

Kudos to you for going out on a limb and continuing to try and balance.

Now I'm going back over to Mocha's to ask her a possibly racist question - because that's how I learn.

Much respect,

Tricia

Backpedaling doesn't make it ok

truthinadvertising — Thu, 01 May 2008 13:34:58 -0500

Dana wrote an idiotic, ignorant, offensive piece, which she obviously slapped together in 10 minutes. Stating she had no knowledge on the subject, which seemed to be her way of "un-claiming" the info, does not make her lack of effort alright. She was lazy and ill-informed, and yet hit 'publish' anyway. I guess my question is: "Why is Dana Tuszke a paid BlogHer CE?" I've read many of her posts, and rather than forming her own opinions and ideas, she regurgitates the words of others who've said it much better than she ever could. I realize the hallmark of a good writer/analyst is to read as much info on the subject, digest the information, form a coherent opinion based on all the facts, and present a new, improved viewpoint. Has Dana ever actually done that? She seems to think resaerching a topic means grabbing snippets from everyone else's head/blogs/newspaper clippings and arranging them into a semi-logical order. That's not journalism - that's simply playing journalist dress-up.

Just because Dana backpedaled and handed out prolific apologies for her truly offensive post does not mean she should be forgiven or her incompetence overlooked. She offended a HUGE group of BlogHer readers...not just those of Jewish descent, but those of us who appreciate a well-researched piece, those of us who know what racism looks like, and those of us with a social conscience. Dana is out of her league. Look at her previous posts; if you find actual research and a coherent opinion that doesn't restate all her thumbtacked snippets, I'd be surprised.

Dear BlogHer, please show Dana Tuszke and her apologies, blatant ignorance, and regurgitated pieces the door. There are plenty of other writers who would be willing to do the work/research it takes to be a succesful CE who would GLADLY take her place.

I understand what you are saying.

Dana J. Tuszke — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:32:47 -0500

Jane, I understand where you are coming from. I have taken responsibility for my actions. No one is excusing me from my mistake. I appreciate the support that many have given me, but in no way does that exempt me from owning up to what I've done.

I understand where Neil is coming from as well, but I don't believe that he should suggest that I "don't have the stomach" for politics, simply because I was honest and shared my fears. It's natural to feel this way after a grave mistake such as mine. And I think it's very important that I address and conquer that fear.

(Also, I want to say that while I was woefully ignorant of matters of Israel, I do have knowledge in other areas of politics and news.)

Grace, your comment is patronizing...

ByJane — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 12:21:32 -0500

and uncalled for. You are lecturing someone who has taken the time to write a thoughtful and considered response to Dana. What he is saying to her is, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. And if you want to stay in the kitchen, get airconditioning. What he is saying to you and others who rushed to Dana's defense, excusing the whole thing, is take responsibility. If you want your site/organization to be considered a major player (like, you want the presidential candidates to take you seriously), you must take yourself seriously. Putting a writer in the position of Contributing Editor of Politics and News who is so woefully ignorant about politics and news is not taking yourself seriously. It's playing at the game and whining when you're caught out.

Neil is in no way reducing your support for Dana to something trivial. He is pointing out, and rightly so, that her post has damaged BlogHer's credibility. I wonder if you would have been so quick to throw the political is personal line at him if he had been a she. It seems to me that you are excessively circling the wagons.

By Jane

http://byjane.blogspot.com

Rita, I agree. It will

Dana J. Tuszke — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:44:19 -0500

Rita, I agree. It will take volumes of research (thanks to Jill and Lara for the links and book recommendations) so I hope to go at this again in the future. And I promise to let others view it before I post (and include tons of links and references!)...

clearly I have a lot to learn

Rita Arens — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:39:02 -0500

I should've proofread my comment. Check out all those typos!

I personally think the best thing you could do at this point is to take all that great background info you've been given on Israel and

write

the

post

again.

Surrender, Dorothy - When I was your age, we just let them ride in the back window.

Dana Best wishes on getting

lilmommythatcould — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:52:28 -0500

Dana Best wishes on getting back on the horse.

Kicking a person while their down keeps them from growing.

Rita, thank you for that

Dana J. Tuszke — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:38:21 -0500

Rita, thank you for that excellent advice. I'm using it. I'm building up the confidence to keep working at this. I realize it's a natural reaction to run for cover when stones are thrown, but I do agree that I must jump back on the horse.

Hi Neil. I did happen to

Dana J. Tuszke — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:33:02 -0500

Hi Neil. I did happen to read your blog about my error in judgment. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion. You have every right to be angry and to make your own judgments about me. I'm not going to argue with you. I've paid for my mistake. I've made the best of a painful situation and walked away a better person, and a better writer because of it. That is the most valuable lesson I could ever learn.

And while I appreciate your advice and respect your opinion, I do not appreciate the lecture "tone". I realize what I've done. And I believe I have every right to be afraid. But being afraid does not define me. Overcoming that fear and using it to throttle myself into the next level of political writing -- that's worth more than a king's gold.

I'm not proud that it took a mistake such as this to learn this hard lesson, but I'm not going to ignore it. It's important to learn from this and to mature and grow as a writer. I think what has happened will allow me to become fearless, eventually, while still being cautious and aware of others' feelings.

Education is always expensive.

Rita Arens — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:58:17 -0500

Unfortunately, no writer gets smart without a few painful mistakes. A writing professor mine once told me I had no right to pick up a pencil until I knew what my interviewee or main character would eat for breakfast if he or she was out of milk. While there's no always time in the blogging world to go to that level of detail, it's a good measuring stick, I think.

I know as a CE I often run into time constraints. Writing a BlogHer post usually takes me a few hours, because it takes a lot of time to find relevant women bloggers writing on the topic I choose each week. I've had to abandon posts before because I couldn't find the back-up blogs. The other problem is trying to find new female voices when you're in a time crunch. It's deifnitely not the easiest thing to be a BlogHer CE. Some BlogHer CEs post twice a week, and I don't know how they do it.

I learned in graduate school the hard way by having my writing posted on a blackboard while my professor pointed out every little thing that was wrong or unprofessional about it. My writing is still not perfect. Every week I put up something mildly controversial (like this week), I hold my breath a little before I hit Submit. However, as BlogHer CEs, I think we have a responsibility to put relevant, timely and thought-provoking issues out there. As someone privy to the CE backchannel, I'll say I don't think anyone takes that responsibility lightly.

Lisa is right. Dana didn't include other points of view. If she had linked to other female bloggers, she probably would've received some of the education she got in the comments before she wrote the post, and I'll bet it would've been a more balanced post. She made a mistake, and the mistake was not seeing what other people were saying before writing her own post.

That said, she's been educated. Attacking her is not going to erase that post, or erase her thought process.

Dana -- you have two choices. You can hide or you can come back with your next post better, stronger and more polished for the experience you've had. Trust me, I went home from my classes in graduate school every week and cried because I was so mortified about my writing. Writers put themselves out there, and it's dangerous. But just learn from it -- don't stop.

Surrender, Dorothy - When I was your age, we just let them ride in the back window.

Quo Vadis, Israel?

Dana J. Tuszke — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 16:08:29 -0500

I'm not an expert on matters of the Middle East. I make an effort to read the newspapers and watch the news, but most of the information I discover usually pertains to the war in Iraq and our American troops.

About a month ago, BlogHer's Kim Pearson and I had a brief chat discussion about Middle Eastern history and I was surprised (and somewhat embarrassed) with how little I knew about the territory and it's many crises and religious conflicts.

In my high school history classes my teachers barely skimmed the surface of the complex histories of the geographical regions of Israel, Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon and Syria. We learned of the many controversies between the lands and the numerous failed attempts to make peace among the people. Any discussion of Iraq consisted mostly of anti-Saddam Hussein rhetoric. Looking back on it now, it's a shame that we didn't delve into the details.

I do remember learning about the Holy Land in catechism class, but only as it pertained to the Roman-Catholic faith, the Bible, or Jesus Christ himself.

I once asked a teacher why there were so many conflicts in the Middle East, why people were always fighting with each other, but I never received an answer that made any sense. My questions were often answered with generalizations or personal assumptions.

One teacher avoided my question altogether and instead suggested I pray for these quarreling nations, "so that they may find God's grace". Even now, eleven years out of school, the conflicts of the Middle East overwhelm and confuse me.

Perhaps my desire to find answers to my questions inspired me to read the book Quo Vadis, Israel?, in which author H. Peter Nennhaus examines the conflicts between Israel and the Palestinian people.

"For Jews and non-Jews alike," Nennhaus writes, "the State of Israel has become the source of disappointment and concern. The world has witnessed the never-ending tragedy that has befallen the Holy Land with its wars, bombings and intifadas, and the United States, in spite of its unmatched influence, has been unable to resolve the crisis."

Nennhaus offers a substantive history of Jewish persecution and constant stigmatization, and the many attempts of eastern Europeans to induce social assimilation and christianization among the Jewish people. He talks about the deep-seeded hatred that is projected toward the Jews and gives a basic explanation of how antisemitism has occurred throughout the world, and still exists today.

"They [the Jews] were seen as an unacceptable infestation, an alien people who had to be either subdued or exorcised from the Motherland. They spoke their own tongue, they had persisted to adhere to an unchristian faith, they believed in absurd superstitions, they were a pathetic people provoking derision and contempt, and to top it off, they were now carrying the banner for the subversive movement of Marxism. In many different ways they were given to understand they were an unwanted and outcast race."

The author believes that peace in Israel cannot be achieved if things stay as they are and always have been, and offers that the solution may lie in relocating the State of Israel to a geographic region where there is no hostility.

I wonder how this would work? Would it solve the many conflicts that arise between Israelis and Palestinians? Where would the State of Israel relocate? Should the United States end the war in Iraq and assist the Israelis instead?

Nennhaus' suggestion is "to follow the recipe, which history employed in Israel and Palestine during the past six decades.... It is not unreasonable to fear that this mountain of loathing and abomination will be an irremovable fact dividing the Israelis and Palestinians and that in the unlikely event that some day in the future permanent peace between them becomes reality, it would still not extinguish the flames of mutual aversion."

Quo Vadis, Israel is a fact-based book and at first glance was rather intimidating to me. Perhaps because of my lack of knowledge, it didn't seem plausible to move an entire country. But, after reading the book I acquired a better understanding of the Jewish people and their history, and I can see why Nennhaus believes it may be in Israel's best interest to be transplanted to more suitable land in eastern Europe.

Nennhaus proposes that purchase of the land called the Kaliningrad Oblast from Russia, would encourage Russian immigrants to return to Russia by means of financial enticements, and the transfer of the Israelis to the Baltic, would prevent anyone from questioning the legitimacy of this new Israeli homeland.

What do you think? Could Israel relocate its entire nation? Could peace finally be achieved?