BlogHer - Talking Race with Kelly Wickham of "Mocha Momma" - Comments

Comment Too Long for Blogher

BlondieChicago — Thu, 08 May 2008 12:14:43 -0500

Hello, ladies. It's Rita's sis here. I had a lot of thoughts about this, but I realized my comment was going to run waaaay too long for this forum. I wrote my response on my own blog if you care to see.

Rita and Kelly, I enjoyed this conversation very much. It got my brain cranking this morning!

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That's the uncomfortable part: taking the feedback, right?

Rita Arens — Thu, 08 May 2008 09:47:18 -0500

I recently went to a feedback seminar at work. Someone said, "I want to learn how to take feedback without getting pissed off." I think you've nailed an important point -- it's important to listen to what was said instead of immediately figuring out your defense. It's hard to take the feedback without getting pissed off, whether it's about blowing a deadline or race.

I think that's the valuable part of my conversation with Kelly. There wasn't a whole lot said that I edited out except the name of the black blogger. I respect the blogger I approached, I don't know why she backed out, but that was her choice and she in no way asked to become the Black Blogger Representative of the World. It's not fair to introduce anything personal about her into this discussion except to say, hey, she was black, and she was writing about race. I think those two points are relevant to the discussion.

You could, however, just as easily say, why only one? Why only three Jewish people? Why only one mother of an adopted child of another race? Why, why, why? And you, as a reader, as a consumer (I hope) of this collection, have every right to that opinion. You have every right to ask why. In some ways, the answer doesn't matter.

Liz has been very close to the project, so she knows a lot about the struggle to get the anthology put together. I think her points ARE relevant. She asks equally valid questions. As we all ask our own questions, I think we're getting to the core of the discussion Kelly and I started. The whole discussion of race transcends any discussion of one mommyblogging anthology, but this discussion is important and should and will influence any future anthologies I personally put together. Whether or not this particular one was "right" or "wrong" is not as important as this discussion playing out now. I feel like this discussion is VERY important.

Surrender, Dorothy - When I was your age, we just let them ride in the back window.

Rita Arens is a contributing editor for BlogHer -- Mommy & Family.

Thank You Yvette

MSmith — Thu, 08 May 2008 09:42:05 -0500

Thank you Yvette for saying what I was thinking, but couldn't quite figure out how to say.

Megan
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"Both Ways"?

Yvette Perry — Thu, 08 May 2008 09:12:43 -0500

I have to repeat that I am not familiar with the anthology. I was responding to a pattern I saw in the conversation--the topic of which just happened to be about this anthology. And that pattern rang familiar to me as a frustration when trying to have honest conversations with White men and women.

That pattern is most simply this: At the invitation by a non-minority person or organization to please share your thoughts and feelings about X, a POC decides to open up and says, "Well, I felt bias/marginalization/lack of understanding/lack of representation when _________." Instead of the response being to explore that perception and look for solutions, it is for the non-minority person/organization to take a defensive pose: "Well, ________ was not biased/there was representation..."

Clearly, in the case of the conversation between these two women, there was more that was not apparent in the edited version, and their prior relationship and openness to moving forward means that they will continue the ongoing process of dialog.

Responding to your question: I wonder why you think diversity should work "both ways." Are White women/mommybloggers really so under-represented that they should be included in work by folks who really are under-represented? Again, I do not know enough about this specific topic, nor of the Mommyblogosphere in general to say.

I find it interesting that the some of the conversation about one POC's feelings of marginalization continues to focus on the perceived feelings, good intentions, character, etc of the non-POC. This is a familiar dynamic for many POC: the idea that there is no space for honest discussions of our feelings and experiences if it makes Whites feel ill at ease or uncomfortable about themselves.

As I said in another comment, these conversations cannot move forward unless folks are willing to work through their discomfort and defensiveness.

Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast

Does it work both ways?

itsonlyme — Wed, 07 May 2008 23:20:31 -0500

Kelly and Rita (and commenters), this is a fascinating discussion - thank you both for this interview. I've learned a lot, and I love the frank discussion surrounding it.

Yvette, I have to ask: if the anthology was being put together by a black mommy blogger, would you feel that, to maintain diversity, she should backfill if her white writer backed out? (assuming, of course, that she chose mostly black contributors in the first place)

Does diversity work both ways?

Speaking from my (white) perspective, I think that as long as the subject matter attracted me, and the stories resonated with me, I'd enjoy the book no matter what color the writer.

I do realize about myself, though, that if the book would be presented/marketed as a "black mommy blogger anthology" instead of as a "mommy blogger anthology" I'd be more likely to skip it. I'm not proud to say it, but I'm glad that this post has made me think about the diversity of what I read, and realize that it's fairly narrow.

Thanks Maria

Mom101 — Wed, 07 May 2008 19:25:48 -0500

Indeed the clarification is apt. I do feel like there is a cumulative effect of lots of people posting about feeling left out of the book. Not always in such thoughtful words as Kelly has done here.

However I do think in Yvette saying:

I want to point out that the strategy of not actively seeking out
diversity is part of what contributes to that kind of marginalization

to me, indicates that this is Rita's "strategy." It clearly was not which was my main point. Perhaps you didn't intend that comment to be about the book specifically. Apologies if I misinterpreted.

And certainly Yvette I in no way said that diversity was not a valid - and in fact the core - issue in the discussion. (Forgive my choice of the word "real" - I overuse it hopelessly.) I'm simply asking another question in return about what constitutes diversity.

Is there no diversity if there is no African-American voice? Is there no diversity if there is no Muslim voice? Is there no diversity if there is no lesbian voice? I think those are questions worth considering, as well as why including Asian, Latina, and various biracial bloggers somehow isn't enough. What is enough? Is there ever enough?

I suppose diversity is in the eyes of the individual who is feeling marginalized and that makes it very difficult to pinpoint.

Mom-101

Thanks and a hunch

Maria Niles — Wed, 07 May 2008 16:22:24 -0500

Thank you, Yvette to adding to this excellent conversation (huge thanks to Rita and Kelly for starting it) by asking questions and raising issues that might cause some discomfort but are important. Until we discuss rather than ignore the hard stuff we will never make progress.

And, far be it from me to put words into Liz's (Mom 101) mouth but I suspect the "beating" she is referring to is not the conversation here but rather to some of the incredibly nasty, jealous and hurtful comments Rita has received at her own blog and have been posted by other bloggers elsewhere.

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Discomfort is OK!

Yvette Perry — Wed, 07 May 2008 13:17:37 -0500

I'm feeling a little defensive, as goes in these conversations.

And I would say, that's OK! LOL Seriously, if folks are not prepared to feel a little (or a lot) of discomfort in the course of having dificult conversations, then better not to embark on them in the first place.

It is clear from the remainder of your response that you do not let discomfort get in the way of further attempts to understand, and that too is a good thing.

As for the "backfill" issue, I am not sure I know enough about the history of the project to respond. I guess I would say that my opinion (repeat: my) is that in general "colorblind" methods of just about anything are not proactive enough to achieve true diversity. Certainly, not all POC feel that way--just like with any other topic. Which is why it is important to get a diversity of voices and not expect any one person to be the voice of folks who are _____.

Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast

More Frustration

Yvette Perry — Wed, 07 May 2008 13:04:36 -0500

Mom101, I am glad you found the anthology represented a wide variety of voices.

At the same time I feel it is unfortunate that you call the issue of diversity in the work not part of the "real discussion." Of course that is your option, but I wonder why you feel you can so easily dismiss a concern that was raised.

I also find interesting your statement: I don't think it's fair to say that Rita wants "credit for what little diversity is managed." If you re-read my comment I think you;ll find that this is not what I said at all.

Finally, it is too bad that a discussion designed (I thought) to be a safe place for this kind of dialog is seen as a WOC delivering a "beating" to Rita.

Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast

Any lesbian moms?

Denise — Wed, 07 May 2008 11:24:25 -0500

It's a can of worms, Rita.

You've got this great discussion with Kelly and other women of color and from there it could lead to discussions with lesbian mommy bloggers and from there it could lead to discussions with mommy bloggers who are not middle to upper middle class.

Can of worms, I tell ya. But a really important can of worms and I appreciate the honesty and openness of all involved in this discussion.

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

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Just To Be Clear

MSmith — Wed, 07 May 2008 10:58:35 -0500

Hi Rita,

Please don't feel horrible. I would hate to think my answer to your question made you feel that way.

And again, I greatly respect your willingness to listen and to try and understand. We need a lot more people like you who are willing to do that.

Megan
BlogHer Contributing Editor, TV/YouTube
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Don't hurt me...

Mom101 — Wed, 07 May 2008 10:40:05 -0500

I'm going to attempt to address diversity in the anthology which is a volatile topic and I'm guessing most people are staying away from it for that reason.

I don't think it's fair to say that Rita wants "credit for what little diversity is managed." In fact I think that's entirely unfair.

It seems to me that she's pointing out hey, this is not a book with only one perspective represented. There's a wide variety of voices here, from bloggers with children of different ages, in different parts of the country, in different life stages.

Is every single group represented? Of course not. There are no single moms who conceived their children with donor sperm. There are no lesbian moms. There are no devout Jews or practicing Muslims. An African-American blogger and a Latina blogger each dropped out by choice at the last minute and are no longer in the compliation.

Does this mean those groups were "marginalized?"

I think Rita did an excellent job at reaching out to a variety of bloggers, while still trying to maintain a popular enough roster that she could sell the book. In which case perhaps the real discussion should go back to some of Kelly's earlier (and very valid) queries about why bloggers of color don't achieve the numbers with mainstream readers that they might.

Maybe I have no credence here as someone included in the book. But I'm frustrated for Rita who's taking too much of a beating. Even here, where the discussion is civil.

Meanwhile so glad that Rita and Kelly are offering up the topic for discussion. It needs to happen.

Filing your all these comments away in my head.

Rita Arens — Wed, 07 May 2008 10:32:00 -0500

So, as Kelly puts it, I'm getting "schooled." :) I'm so glad we are having this conversation. In my attempt not to offend, I think I offended. I feel horrible. But at least there's been some valuable learning here, at least for me.

Thank goodness I have black friends to help me out. Seriously. I count you guys as friends for coming to me without attack and giving me valuable coaching as an editor.

Surrender, Dorothy - When I was your age, we just let them ride in the back window.

Rita Arens is a contributing editor for BlogHer -- Mommy & Family.

An Excellent Question

MSmith — Wed, 07 May 2008 10:24:39 -0500

Hi Rita,

I think that's a great question, and bravo to you for being courageous enough to ask it. It's a kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't position that we as black people need to try to understand.

In this circumstance, my answer would be yes.

When the black mommy blogger was unavailable for your book I think it would have been a good idea to try and find another good black mommy blogger.

I would have then approached her and said "I'm doing a mommy blogger anthology and I'd like to include a black mommy blogger's perspective in the book, would you be interested?"

Since you had some multi-racial writers in your book, she wouldn't have been the one token black writer, but even if she had been, I would still say yes.

Hypothetically, if a mommy blogger anthology were being put together today, if there were ten writers who were going to be included, I would like to see at least three who were WOC.

Is that including the writers because they are black? Yes. But as long as they are also excellent writers, have interesting stories to tell, and they were approached in the way I described, I wouldn't have a problem with that and I don't think they would either.

Even if their stories aren't from a black perspective, but simply from a mommy perspective, it's important to be included.

That's very different from a black person being hired for a position and then having it thrown in their face later on, either implicitly or explicitly "the only reason you were hired was because you're black." And then diminishing their accomplishments and prospects on that job because of that.

Megan
BlogHer Contributing Editor, TV/YouTube
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That's why we started this conversation.

Rita Arens — Wed, 07 May 2008 09:50:12 -0500

I wanted to respond to this part of the comment from Yvette:

At one point in the conversation, Kelly shares her perception of a
lack of diversity in a recent anthology, expresses some dismay about
that, and asks some questions. I do not totally know what to make of
the response, but the pattern of Rita's statements that followed
revealed, for me, one of the frustrations about having these
conversations.

I should point out that the pattern of my statements was the edited version. Kelly and I talked specifically about the black blogger I approached, whom we both knew, but I didn't want to reveal her identity. I'm feeling a little defensive, as goes in these conversations. I sought out this particular black blogger because of her post on adopting a child whose skin is darker than yours. I sought her out because she was writing in particular about race and I had wanted that represented in my book. I lost contact with her before I got her contributor agreement, and at that point, we were going to publishers. There was a timing issue involved.

The first part of the response was to counter that yes, there *was*
diversity in the anthology, as evidenced by 8 of the contributors being
"not 100% caucasian" or having biracial children. That does not seem to
me to acknowledge the initial concern about a specific person's
perceived sense of margialization and lack of representation.

You're right about that. I was surprised that Kelly herself felt marginalized by my collection. Shocked and dismayed. I didn't sleep well that night. We talked about it a lot, and I wonder if I didn't go about this a little bit wrong. I was afraid of having anyone feel like they were a token, so I approached people without a specific eye to race. I wanted writing about race, but I wasn't specifically seeking out any particular race to do that writing. I'm thinking now, after talking to Kelly and reading your response, that I should have. That's one of the reasons I wanted to publish my conversation with Kelly. She influenced me in an important way, and I hope I go on to write and edit more books and use this new learning to be better with each successive effort.

Also I want to point out that the strategy of not actively seeking
out diversity is part of what contributes to that kind of
marginalization and lack or representation of voices. While some may
feel great about what diversity was lucked upon, clearly others still
feel something is lacking.

I struggle with this comment, because Kelly made a point in our conversation about not liking being chosen as a teacher in her early career because she was black. Help me understand how it is different to seek out a black writer for the purpose of having diversity. This is a sincere question, and not one meant to provoke ire. This was something I really struggled with. I didn't want ANYONE to feel like they were chosen to be in my book because of their skin color. They were all sought out because of their writing. When I lost my black writer, I didn't backfill her. I also lost three other writers, not black. I didn't backfill them, either.

Should I have backfilled to have a black writer in the book? Specifically sought out a black writer because another black writer dropped out? When I didn't backfill the white writers?

I'm serious. I thought the answer was "no," because I didn't want anyone to feel like they were the token black writer. Maybe I was wrong?

Surrender, Dorothy - When I was your age, we just let them ride in the back window.

Rita Arens is a contributing editor for BlogHer -- Mommy & Family.

Talking Race with Kelly Wickham of "Mocha Momma"

Rita Arens — Mon, 05 May 2008 09:19:32 -0500

Kelly Wickham of Mocha Momma recently commented on BlogHer that she'd like to see more people asking questions about the black experience so we could gain the same kind of learning we gained from discussing Dana Tuske's post on Israel. This was her comment:

I always want to yell at people, "GO GET SOME BLACK FRIENDS IF YOU HAVE ALL THESE QUESTIONS. DAMN." but I don't. If they didn't surround themselves in their hygenic-hermetically sealed bubbles and hope that everyone else can please explain themselves. I try to educate instead and sometimes, yes, I do so with a lot of sighing and a mild amount of disgust, but I know they really do want to learn.

I e-mailed Kelly, whom I've known and respected for a while now, to open a dialogue. Here are some excerpts from our conversation about the black and white of today's America.

Rita: I know I've personally said things while pregnant that offended women with infertility problems to the core. I didn't do it on purpose, but I hurt their feelings and was aghast later when I realized how I'd made them feel. I suspect this happens between black and white women, as well. Becoming more aware of other's perspectives is part of being part of the community of women, and specifically, moms. Is there anything a white mom friend has said to you (preferably on accident, as I'm more interested in unintentional hurts than intentional ones) that bothered you from an racial identity standpoint? What might another woman say or do that you felt was subconsciously racist?

Kelly: Most of the things said that hurt my heart and soul are about child-rearing and the assumption that Whites do it "better". This comes when they begin with the traditional "Why do Black people..." or that Black parents don't inherently care about their kids' education.

Rita: This year at BlogHer Business there was a panel on marketing to mommies of color. Kimberly Coleman commented: "If you would've asked me to identify myself before I had a kid. Christian, then black, then woman. Now, Christian, mother, black, woman. Every other blog post I don't say "oh, I'm Christian." It's who I am. And I'm also black." Where does being black fit into Kelly's line-up?

Kelly: One time I heard Halle Berry mention that her mom raised her as a Black girl first and foremost. She knew she's grow up with lots of questions in Ohio as a minority and didn't want her to have identity issues. While my mom and dad simply raised me a girl, I'd have to admit that I identify with being a Black woman. It is ever present in my life and I've realized (to my chagrin) that sometimes I am the only resource for some people.

Rita: You mentioned the best way to understand race is to make friends of other races. What suggestions do you have for women living in geographically homogenous areas? It seems like online friends might be one way to turn. What do you think?

Kelly: I think that depending on the philosophical nature of those parenting kids in geographically homogenous areas, much of this can be done as conscious cultural parenting. For example, do you only read People magazine? How about Ebony as well? Getting your daughter a doll of another culture/color? Reading novels and listening to music culturally different than White mainstream?

Rita: How open are you to being asked questions about race by your white friends in casual conversation?

Kelly: This is an easy question, but one that comes with some resentment on my part. It’s very easy and I’m happy to offer what knowledge I can, but I will object when it reduces me to only that. When asking this question I cannot speak for all Blacks just like I couldn’t speak for all Whites. Nor can they. But I don’t have the type of friends who take me for just that. Acquaintances reduce me when they get a chance and when I retaliate or respond negatively because of the implied insult, then they accuse me of being an “angry Black woman” As a result, the cycle of perpetuating stereotypes continues and the conversation is stalled.

Rita: What is your biggest pet peeve when it comes to race discussion?

Kelly: Probably some of the things I’ve already mentioned with the inclusion of this notation: when beginning sentences with “Hey, Kelly? Why do Black people…” there is an assumption that Blacks are an anomaly.

Rita: There’s been a lot of discussion in the mommyblogging space about marketing to moms, and whether or not moms of color have had the same focus as white moms. You commented on this subject at BlogHer 2007. Anything you’d like to add?

Kelly: Liz from Mom-101 recently sent me something she’d gotten from a media-marketing “professional”. I use it in quotes because when I researched this person I didn’t find much credibility. It was a call to bloggers about race in the media and how people of color are making an impact. AND THEY DIDN’T SEND IT TO PEOPLE OF COLOR. Liz sent it to me because of the sheer irony in their marginalizing those very people they were heralding. That’s been part of the issue all along.

However, I would be remiss if I didn’t mention to you how hurt I am that I am still marginalized as well as other Black moms because we aren’t represented in the new mommyblogging anthology that you’ve edited and I have to ask: Why not? Was there a conversation that occurred in query to where they are and who would be included?

Rita: I think that's a fair question. Actually, out of the 24 contributors, eight are either not 100% caucasian themselves or have biracial children. When I look at the group, I see diversity, which is sort of amazing, really, because when I approached most of my contributors, I'd never met them in person and in fact had no idea what they looked like. I had approached originally a very prominent black mommyblogger for the collection and included her post up until I lost contact with her around the time I locked down the book in preparation to find a publisher. I think the loss of her post was a big one -- her post would've made the collection even better -- but I lost contact with her before she signed the contributor agreement, and it would've been wrong and illegal to publish her work without her consent.

Rita: Do you think people in 2008 have a preconceived notion of a black mom? If so, do you think it’s accurate?

Kelly: Considering my previous answer, I’d have to say ‘no’. Unless that notion is that black moms are invisible. Which I think is proven by the list of mommyblogs being featured in the book. I don’t think people have a positive perception of black moms when it IS mentioned and the “preconceived notion” is that they’re uncaring and poor and don’t make concerted efforts in parenting. Organizations like Mocha Moms help change it, but only if you’re looking. Black moms will seek out other Black moms and they’re the ones doing all the talking. Unfortunately, they’re doing all the listening, too.

Rita: Do you think the media too often lumps race with socioeconomic status?

Kelly: That’s a term that perplexes me: socioeconomic. Where did it come from and what is the evolution of that word? (Seriously, I’d really like to know.) We used to say “economic” and now “socio-“ is attached to it. When I read that word or hear it in conversation I stop to ask, “What sociological group are you referring to because you made the distinction? So I need to know who you’re talking about.” Before I became cognizant of the origin of the word and my own use of it I had someone reply, “Oh. You mean the Black people.” In fact, during that conversation, I didn’t. I meant people in poverty. Due to that, I think we use it as a cover-up in discussing race and are attempting to fool ourselves out of talking about the issue at hand.

Rita: Do you see yourself and other moms like you represented accurately on television? If not, why do you think that is?

Kelly: Perhaps I’m beginning to sound like a conspiracy theory is to blame, but SOMEone (network execs, writers, producers) is keeping that image off television. SOMEone is using it to promote the image of white mothers confronting all the issues and having all the answers. Since Claire Huxtable, I haven’t seen a positive Black mother on TV, and that’s nearly 20 years old. The images promoted are the Crazy Black Bitch (Omarossa), the Manipulative Tyrant (Oprah – but she’s not a mom), The Sterotypical Black Granny (Big Momma, Medea), or The Video Vixen (see: MTV and BET). I realize I named black characters created by blacks, but SOMEone important is green-lighting that stuff. Are they shut down when positive black moms are pitched?

Rita: I know you work in education. Anything you’d like to say about schools and race?

Kelly: With NCLB we’ve created dissention and dishonesty amongst educators who look at their scores and wonder, “Is Student X really Black? I thought they were mixed. Let’s list their ethnicity as something different to change our percentages to show that we achieved more than we did.” Then, we use those numbers to prove that we’re helping the specially educated, the ones receiving free/reduced lunch (poverty), and Blacks and Latinos. The truth is that we are! But that isn’t reflected because it’s based on one test each year and we’re to prove that we did everything to help them when our hands are tied with laws and rules and the fact that we can’t control everything going on in their lives. Nor do we want to! But the responsibility of race (see: socio-economic answer) falls to education and we get the blame for societal ills of POVERTY.

Yet, I know I got my first job because they needed another Black teacher on their roster and I have been insulted by that and resented it ever since someone told me that. I want to be in education because I’m GOOD and I’m BETTER than the other applicants, not because I’m reduced to being “just Black”.

Rita: Why do you think we as a country still struggle with race relations?

Kelly: You’re making me study the word “relate” which I’m taking it from the definition to feel sympathy with; identify with and I suppose that’s the crux. Most people don’t “identify” with race because they aren’t relating to people of color. Something that holds that up is that people have to understand something before they accept it. Isn’t the same true with the gay population? With transgender humans? People have this necessity to UNDERSTAND it and continue to QUESTION it with disdain because their minds can’t wrap around some concept or detail.

Rita: How do you put race discussions in perspective for a young person who has had a different experience and is several generations away from the Civil War?

Kelly: The same way I debate race discussions with anyone: on a case-by-case personal basis. With students, it happens naturally because they are more comfortable with it and they seemingly seek me out as safe, non-judgmental and trusted adult. With teachers, it happens in small circles and very carefully. In my profession teachers want very much to hold students to the same standard and get very put off if it is suggested that they’ve made a decision regarding a student when they feel like they’ve been called a racist. They, like most people, can take constructive criticism about their performance and learn like professionals about their craft, but when you intimate they are racists you are putting them in the category of David Duke and the Klan and then you’re on tricky ground.

We put it in perspective with dialogue. We build a foundation of Americanism by including it in our history books. (note: Lies My Teacher Told Me is a great reference to begin textbook discrepancies and failures). We do it by confronting it daily and not when it’s convenient or safe. We question authority that is wrong, wrong, wrong. We converse about the preconceived notions and we actively seek to stomp it out. To do anything less is to cheapen the importance of it in a country that looks less like a melting pot of blended races and more like a salad where no one ingredient changes the taste of another but sit separately in the bowl and is covered with the slimy salad dressing of denial. We’ve been that salad for a long, long time and it has left us with a bitter taste.

I left the conversation with Kelly feeling like I'd learned a lot from her perspective. I asked her what I thought were fair questions, and she asked me what I thought were fair questions. We get nowhere when we react defensively first without listening to the question. This is a hard subject to discuss, and both Kelly and I are putting ourselves out there in discussing race in this public forum, so I ask that regardless of your opinion, you voice your comments with that same amount of respect.

Read other BlogHers on race.

See all of BlogHer's race, ethnicity and culture blogs.

Other great bloggers from Rita and Kelly:

Black Mom's Club
Anti-Racist Parent

Ebony Elite

Ebony Mommy

Mahogany Baby