BlogHer - Men are from Science, Women are from Fashion and Style - Comments

"f science and engineering

wetnap — Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:55:56 -0500

"f science and engineering continue to be marginalized in
media that targets women, women will continue to be marginalized in
science and engineering. And in business, in education, in government -
in life.

on the other hand men don't go into such fields because they were specifically targeted for it by their media. you make it sound like people have to be hunted down and tricked into choosing a field of study. sometimes there is a difference in preference. and frankly the tech sector has a very lousy image at the moment of being an ageist industry where you'll be used up young then outsourced. men go into it b ecause its either their natural aptitude or they don't have the other skills or social skills to go into more lucrative areas. so perhaps the perspective is wrong, perhaps the women have options many socially retarded male geeks do not have. perhaps the problem is trying to shoe horn people into professions to make a social point.

Science & Kids

jublke — Tue, 27 May 2008 10:32:08 -0500

I blog on family-friendly science topics at Mama Joules (http://www.mamajoules.blogspot.com) and I've had a difficult time finding like-minded folks to link up with. I'm not an academic science blog, nor am I an education blog. I tend to lean toward nature & environment, but those are far from the only topics that I write about.

I, for one, was disappointed that BlogHer didn't have a category for science. Personally, I didn't identify with the "technology" tag because I think that's a word that implies technical writing and my goal is to demystify science and make it accessible for everyone.

Glad to see the topic is on the table! :)

Ok, I'll Do My Part

Gena Haskett — Fri, 23 May 2008 21:22:13 -0500

Which is to improve my balance of posting between the Sciences and the Humanities, to point to interesting Science bloggers and be open to the possible.

This is something I willing will do. But if the concepts and the language is not accessible to me or I feel I can't do it justice I'll take a step back and be honest about it. You don't want me writing about Neuropeptides, nobody does, but if I find someone who can explain what happens to them when they get juiced I'm all for it.

It won't happen in an instant but let's see how this plays out.

Gena - Out On The Stoop

Thank You Sara - I Got You On The List

Gena Haskett — Fri, 23 May 2008 21:11:32 -0500

I try to think of what would be the average person's search terms. Which is how the NYT got into trouble in the first place. I'm guessing they though that to reach the most women put it in the women's section. If they had a technology section for women they might have skated but such is life.

So, why not food, technology and if it relates to a breaking news story that catorgory too?

Gena - Out On The Stoop

Speaking as a designated science geek

Sara Davis — Fri, 23 May 2008 09:58:29 -0500

I blog as the "science geek" (as well as rancher, mom, former biotech executive and farmer's market vendor) for my Down To Earth Blog. I recently started posting here, but admit that I rarely use the technology topic as a tag. Maybe I'm showing my age, but the tech tag to me speaks of all things silicon, not biological.

I've struggled with where to put my posts, which are generally about agricultural or food production science. Like Trisha, I would be willing to help out on a science or science and engineering topic.

One of the reasons we started our blog was that we see so much scientific misinformation in the realm of food. Food shoppers (still largely women/Moms) are really savvy about a lot of things, but their science savvy lags behind, in general (IMHO).

Sara Faivre-Davis

downtoearthblog.com and wildtyperanch.com

Gena, I think I would define

Trisha — Thu, 22 May 2008 21:43:15 -0500

Gena,

I think I would define a science blog as one that discusses science or issues related to science most of the time.

I can get you a list of some women science bloggers - give me a few days though.

Elisa - I left a comment at your other blog.

Ideas For Women blog

The more I pondered, the more I disagreed

Elisa Camahort — Thu, 22 May 2008 16:34:32 -0500

Sorry I'm late getting back to this thread, but just got off a plane from a trip all week.

So, Trisha: This comment has nothing to do with whether or not BlogHer as a site should have a Science topic or not. But I did spend some time thinking about your contention that "If science and engineering continue to be marginalized in media that targets women, women will continue to be marginalized in science and engineering. And in business, in education, in government - in life."

Something abut it bugged me...meaning I felt I wanted to push back on it, but it took me a while to identify why. I have a personal rule that if I find I'm leaving a comment that is more than three paragraphs long, then it means I really ought to be writing a post about it, so I've done so here.

Bottom line of the post: I wonder what is most effective to effect change, and where our focus and energies are best directed.

Elisa Camahort
BlogHer
elisa@blogher.com

Oh - One More Thing

Gena Haskett — Thu, 22 May 2008 07:49:20 -0500

What is your definition of a science blog - is just those that containing STEM or concepts relating to it exclusively or would that also include science folks who incorporate their education in to a broader world context?

Or none of the above?

Gena - Out On The Stoop

You Have Valid Points - Here Is What I Can Contribute

Gena Haskett — Thu, 22 May 2008 07:12:11 -0500

I hadn't notice that the REA posts were leaning towards the humanities and leaving the science community of bloggers out in the cold.

There are some science articles but not as many as there should. I know there are women who are blogging about science issues, I have a few in my RSS feeds.

I promise to try to add more of these bloggers in my contributions. I want to let you know that when I go looking for women bloggers to match a story idea sometimes it is hard to find them. This is for any story and it is a little tricker with science bloggers. Often they are nested into larger science based websites or academic sites that on the surface I don't know that they exist.

I certainly use the BlogHer blog roll, blogging search engines and make heavy use of link love but some days I do a lot of mental coaxing to find folks who are writing about certain topics. I have ideas I can't follow up on because I can't find good writing by bloggers who post about them.

If you have bloggers that you would like to share please e-mail me or post them here and we'll get the ball rolling.

Gena - Out On The Stoop

Women will continue to be marginalized

Trisha — Wed, 21 May 2008 20:31:26 -0500

Yes, science is everywhere. It permeates everything we do, which is all the more reason it should have its own category instead being tacked on or marginalized as part of other topics.

Not all science is technology, yes solar energy is - but science is so much more. A couple examples:

A post that reviews the known exoplanets doesn't fit in technology or health. In fact anything about astronomy doesn't really fit in any place on the site.

Plant biology - again, not health, not technology.

And the Research, Academia & Education section has no science or engineering in it. Its all humanities oriented. I saw a post there about National Poetry Month - which is about as far from science and engineering as you can get.

Blogher - which reaches 9 million people each month - is in a position to do so much to help women in science and engineering, to have their voices heard. And to influence and mentor the next generation of women.

The NYT articles says " “Most people just don’t look at a woman and see an engineer" and "societal perception that women simply are not as good in math and science as men are". Don't we want to help those stereotypes to go away? Wouldn't highlighting women scientists and engineers in a women's focused media help?

If science and engineering continue to be marginalized in media that targets women, women will continue to be marginalized in science and engineering. And in business, in education, in government - in life.

Again, I'd be willing to volunteer however I can to get a science and engineering section added.

Ideas For Women blog

Topics for women

Denise — Wed, 21 May 2008 17:45:14 -0500

Women come in all varieties and have multiple interests. That's why we have a lot of broad topics that allow you to blog virtually anything.

As Virginia suggested, Science can be Technology. It's also been blogged in Research, Academia and Education or in Health. Science is everywhere.

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

Flamingo House Happenings

Science would be technology

Virginia DeBolt — Wed, 21 May 2008 17:13:52 -0500

under the current system. I think. I've written about everything from HTML to solar energy under the technology label.

http://www.webteacher.ws/ http://first50.wordpress.com/

I wonder if many people read

Trisha — Wed, 21 May 2008 17:01:38 -0500

I wonder if many people read the non-editor posts though? And still, there is no 'Science and Engineering' listed in the topics on the left column. I'm not an engineer - so I can't write about that, but if I wanted to write about science, you still have to pick a topic but many things a person could write about science do not fit into any of those categories.

Ideas For Women blog

Any BlogHer can blog at BlogHer

Virginia DeBolt — Wed, 21 May 2008 16:48:07 -0500

Much of what you see in the "All Posts" tab is posted by women bloggers who are not considered contributing editors at BlogHer. Step 5 on this page tells you how.
http://www.blogher.com/using-this-site

I hope to see you talking about science and engineering right here.

http://www.webteacher.ws/ http://first50.wordpress.com/

I hope no one here hates me for this, but ...

Trisha — Wed, 21 May 2008 16:33:41 -0500

It's so offensive that they would do that! I would never look at a fashion and style section, so I would never have seen the article.

We definitely still have a long way to go don't we?

I hope this doesn't make people here hate me - but - look at this site. Its for women bloggers and what is included in the topics/sections: Astrology & Horoscopes, Fashion, Beauty & Shopping, etc. but no Science and Engineering!

Why is that? Isn't that just living up to the stereotypes of women? Is there an assumption that women don't blog about science and engineering or don't care about it? Shouldn't a site dedicated to women bloggers and one with so much discussion on women's issues be the first to promote women in areas where they are underrepresented?

I don't know if editors here get paid or not - but I'd be willing to help in any way for free to get science and engineering included here.

My blog is lonely and cries itself to sleep at night, please come visit: Ideas For Women blog

Men are from Science, Women are from Fashion and Style

Virginia DeBolt — Tue, 20 May 2008 08:14:40 -0500

The New York Times did it again. Yep. Put an article about women in engineering and science in the Fashion and Style section of the news. In Diversity Isn’t Rocket Science, Is It?, we learn

Back in the bad old days, the workplace was a battleground, where sexist jokes and assumptions were the norm.

Women were shut off from promotion by an old boys’ network that favored its own. They went to meetings and were often the only women in the room.

All that has changed in the last three decades, except where it has not. In the worlds of science, engineering and technology, it seems, the past is still very much present.

“It’s almost a time warp,” said Sylvia Ann Hewlett, the founder of the Center for Work-Life Policy, a nonprofit organization that studies women and work. “All the predatory and demeaning and discriminatory stuff that went on in workplaces 20, 30 years ago is alive and well in these professions.”

I like and read the NYTimes, but this fashion and style thing is getting really annoying.

Maybe the reason the men in science, engineering and technology in the work place aren't getting the gender-bias message is that these articles are appearing in the WRONG SECTION of the newspaper. Like the previously reported incident, New York Times to Geek Girls. Get thee to the Fashion and Style Pages!, this article is not in the technology or the business section of the newspaper where men would be likely to see it. In a section where men might read, ponder, and even have a thought like, that's not right and it should change if they were given the information. I am willing to give the men of science, engineering and technology the benefit of the doubt by assuming that if they were constantly exposed to this sad state of affairs on a daily basis, the time warp they are in might bend and break. But they are not going to get the message if it isn't the the APPROPRIATE section of the news.

The article goes on to to describe a study by the Center for Work-Life Policy, which will be published in the Harvard Business Review in June.

The study was conceived in response to the highly criticized assertion three years ago, by the then-president of Harvard, that women were not well represented in the science because they lacked what it took to excel there.

The purpose of the work-life center’s survey was to measure the size of the gender gap and to decipher why women leave the science, engineering and technology professions in disproportionate numbers.

The problem isn’t that women aren’t making strides in education in the hard sciences. According to a National Science Foundation report in 2006, 46 percent of Ph.D. degrees in the biological sciences are awarded to women (compared with 31 percent two decades ago); 31 percent of the Ph.D. degrees in chemistry go to women, compared with 18 percent 20 years ago.

I wonder how many other studies that are published in the Harvard Business Review get a mention in the NYT fashion and style pages?

Elisa at Worker Bees Blog said in NY Times puts a women in tech story in the Fashion section...again,

The article is about some hard facts about women in technology, the stats on how they fare from college onwards, and some of the factors that might explain their declining numbers. Yes, "work-life balance" is a part of what is discussed, and yes, most discussions about work-life balance are immediately marginalized (because I guess we all know men don't actually care about that stuff, is that the implication?) But a lot of the discussion is about honest-to-God sexism that still remains in tech culture.

Jen at Can't Fight City Hall said in Find the Fashion & Style in this article,

I’m thinking that a story that has no mention of fashion or style, but plenty of mentions of women ’s strides in education and the work place, diversity, science, technology, and how some men continue their quests of stupidity and callousness should be in a different section of the newspaper. What about the U.S. section? This story concerns American women at work. What about the business section? This story mentions what several businesses are doing to level the playing field for their female employees. What about the Science, Education, or Technology sections?

I think the placement of this article proves the research done by the story’s subjects: Women in the sciences and technology aren’t taken seriously.

In So the Times sees it as a "women's issue," like shoes and handbags?, Laura at rare pattern said,

The article itself is quite provocative....which makes one wonder why the New York Times editors felt they had to stick the article in the fashion section and not in the news section or technology or even business section.

Maybe they thought only women would -- or should -- be interested.

Right, don't put it where it would earn the attention of any men–only women care about this gender discrimination stuff.

This year we have a woman running for President. Not exactly the same issue as whether or not women are treated equally in science and technology, but definitely pertinent. Each time Hillary refuses to quit, continues to fight, (acts like a male candidate in other words) she is vilified. Consider this article about a Yale study: Can an angry woman get ahead? Status conferral, gender, and expression of emotion in the workplace. The abstract states:

Three studies examined the relationships among anger, gender, and status conferral. As in prior research, men who expressed anger in a professional context were conferred higher status than men who expressed sadness. However, both male and female evaluators conferred lower status on angry female professionals than on angry male professionals. This was the case regardless of the actual occupational rank of the target, such that both a female trainee and a female CEO were given lower status if they expressed anger than if they did not. Whereas women's emotional reactions were attributed to internal characteristics (e.g., "she is an angry person,""she is out of control"), men's emotional reactions were attributed to external circumstances. Providing an external attribution for the target person's anger eliminated the gender bias.

At Rebecca's Pocket, in the article Women are socially rewarded at work for being nice; punished for being angry or for negotiating, Rebecca points out,

There are so many ways to go with this - from work in general, to the current presidential campaign, to the gender disparity in salaries, and the dearth of female CEOs (and speakers at conferences).

The NY Times article brought up some heartfelt memories about working as a software developer for Elze in An article that dredged up some memories. She describes working in a team where she was never given any work to do, and concludes

I don't know if this was just a weird case of a boss who's clueless about management, but I suspect he would have treated me differently if I had been a guy. When some new guys joined the team after me, he integrated them right away, giving them work to do. But he never gave me a chance to begin with, as if he simply could not imagine me being on the team.

Come on, New York Times, wake up and start reporting on women's issues in a section of the news that doesn't make you look like the most clueless of a calcified patriarchy.