BlogHer - The Democratic Nomination Race is Over – Will The Wounds Heal? - Comments

Communication killer, indeed

Yvette Perry — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 13:42:24 -0500

Playing up racism (or any ism) where it does not exist...

Who gets to decide the existence of racism, sexism, etc? It would be nice of there was some sort of racism tricorder, which we all could carry around on our belts to immediately scan folks and their actions, statements and thoughts for objectively certifiably racist content. Until then, we will just have to have the empathy to listen to each others' experiences and do the hard cognitive and emotional work of trying to put ourselves in another's shoes.

Yes, there is still so much work to be done. Unfortunately, rarely is there anything "rational" about racism and sexism, which makes "proof" the way most people mean the word such a difficult endeavor. There is a reason why, when speaking about these kinds of conversations, we speak of changing people's minds and hearts...

Thanks for your continuing coverage of our campaign season, Laina--and thanks to all of citizens of countries other than the US who are keeping tabs on us!

Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast

Happy to End It

Jane Devin — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 10:21:10 -0500

You said,

"not entirely surprising to see the media and notable political pundits
use every conceivable racial stereotype about blacks to try to
discredit Barak Obama’s candidacy"

Your link fails to show racism, much less "every conceivable stereotype." What it shows is political arguments and criticisms.

Playing up racism (or any ism) where it does not exist is a communication killer, and is one of the reasons that rationality and politics are so separated.

On that note.

http://janedevin.com

Here's your 'Proof'

lainad — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 07:27:36 -0500

http://clintonattacksobama.pbwiki.com/

As I mentioned previously, life experience shapes our perspective, which is why I assert that there was racism by the Clinton campgain and you assert that there was none, but there was sexsim. There is no way that you are going to change my mind and I am not going to change yours. So let's end this, yes? I have better things to do than go tit for tat on my weekend. I'll add the above link to the post, which you are right, I should have when I originally posted this.

Perspectives

Jane Devin — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:29:43 -0500

Really? Because I rather thought you'd proven mine.

My post on silence and racial hysteria offered up several examples. By contrast, your claim,

"not entirely surprising to see the media and notable political pundits
use every conceivable racial stereotype about blacks to try to
discredit Barak Obama’s candidacy"

did not offer even one. Instead, you threw up the whole "you'd never understand" argument, and only assumed my race and background.

Amazing.

Thanks

lainad — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 11:07:51 -0500

And the whole "you just could never understand" or "Supreme Thought" argument is a tired old barrier that gets dragged out whenever the facts don't match the convenience of opinion.

You just proved my point, Jane.

The Usual Suspects

Jane Devin — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 10:50:43 -0500

These are the usual suspects, Atena. Progressive bloggers, by and large, and those looking to cash in on any perceived slight in order to get their five minutes:

http://www.blogher.com/white-silence-illlogic-and-political-prigs

This election is for all the people. And the whole "you just could never understand" or "Supreme Thought" argument is a tired old barrier that gets dragged out whenever the facts don't match the convenience of opinion.

http://janedevin.com

As you like it...

Atena — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 10:18:47 -0500

It is reasonable to want acknowledgment of the divisiveness caused by sexism in this campaign. And Laina did actually do that. She chose to focus on another topic, though.

Jane, your statements would seem more credible to me if your arguments could acknowledge that it is possible that some racist behavior happened.

Your discussion smacks of "My Oppression is Bigger than Yours," which is a fallacy anyway, since some of us women of color are capable of recognizing that racism and sexism have both been at play in this campaign season.

Just because you "saw NO racism at ALL in this race" does not mean that there was none. It means you didn't see it. Can you acknowledge that sometimes things are happening that you don't recognize?

Also, I'd like to note that there is a difference between the racism and the sexism purportrated by the media, the candidates' camps, the candidates' supporters and the candidates themselves. I can't help but wonder whether you're getting them confuse, or simply lumping them all together. The differences do matter.

And also...

Bill Clinton says Obama's campaign is a "fairy tale." All the ususal
suspects jump up and accuse him of racism. I found that absolutely
amazing, especially when the accusations hit national airwaves.

... I'm almost afraid to ask, but who are these usual suspects?

Assumptions, Biases & Irrational Fantasies

See Jane, that's the problem

lainad — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 06:47:26 -0500

Our life experiences directly impacts how our perspectives on issues are shaped, but that doesn't necessarily mean that one perspective is right or wrong. For people of color and others who are aware of both covert and overt racism (or take an interest in social issues and other people's experiences besides their ilk) we saw racism coming from Clinton's camp. You did not, and while you did not explicitly say it in your posts, perhaps saw more sexism coming from the Media and Obama's camp. If this is correct, so be it.

Just like I think that a female president doesn't necessasarily mean that the women's rights in America would improve, or that Clinton would 'help' women or serve as a symbol for female empowerment in any way. She was running for herself, not for the betterment of anyone besides herself. Just like Obama and anyone else that has run for elected office. Let's not get it twisted.

The problem is, and what I have experienced is when people of the Caucasian persuasion (and I am directing this to them because of a) population and b) the eurocentric social system North America is built upon that dictates that everything Caucasian is superior to everything else) don't 'see' racism, not only does it not exist, but that everyone who does see / experience it is wrong or 'imagining' things. How would you know if you have never experienced it? I think sociologists call this 'Supremacy of Thought.'

If you want to refer to the above as 'reverse racism,' a fallicious term used as a scapegoat technique ( and used quite frequently in discussions about Rev. Wright) to avoid discussion of race that are valid enough not to be so easily dismissed, go ahead.

Just my perspective...........

Yes, lainad, the bloated

Jane Devin — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:41:57 -0500

Yes, lainad, the bloated masses of America are politically ignorant, by and large. We don't like to admit it, much less say it out loud, but our populace is not generally politically aware. To this day, 34-36% of Americans still SUPPORT George Bush. The only reason that figure went down is not because Americans, on their own, believed that the war against Iraq was unjust -- but because the media pounded and pounded that point home. The truth was there all along, but a significant number of Americans needed it to become a POPULAR truth before they could believe it.

Bush was voted in because of his family background, period. America likes to create its own version of royal families, and are overly impressed with the well-to-do and connected. He was a C-average cheerleader who drove one company into the ground, and who profited from a stadium built by taxpayers. Again, the truth was there, and again, a large part of America failed to see it.

Atena, I was indeed talking about those gouges and cuts, just not those YOU might feel. I saw NO racism at ALL in this race. What I saw was a lot of distortion and purposeful attempts to characterize as racist people and statements that clearly were not. Case in point: Bill Clinton says Obama's campaign is a "fairy tale." All the ususal suspects jump up and accuse him of racism. I found that absolutely amazing, especially when the accusations hit national airwaves.

Did I acknowledge the point to your satisfaction? The point laina made is one I vehemently disagree with. Sexism, in fact, played a much more divisive and hurtful role in this race.

And no, my wounds will not heal, particularly when the perpetrators continue to damn a good woman in order to stand by their man. It was possible to be decent and fair and just. It was not done in my own Democratic party, and my previously zealous love for party principles has been shocked into anger.

Much Love, Laina...

Atena — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 07:00:38 -0500

You've captured the tension quite well, I think. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings about it - I feel you.

@ Jane - While you have a right to your feelings and opinions, this post isn't about whether or not Obama should be president. It's about the bruises, scrapes, cuts and gouges left in the wake of this race, and how those might (or might not) be healed. It's pretty bad form to not at least acknowledge the point of the post before hijacking it to follow your own agenda of ideas.

Whether or not we agree with Laina, we should respect this forum. I happen to agree with her. And not because I'm in any way affiliated with Oprah.

Assumptions, Biases & Irrational Fantasies

Thanks Tangerine

lainad — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 06:53:13 -0500

I'm not an American citizen either, but thank you for your response!

Jane, thank you for your perspective and while I disagree with you it is always good to provide the 'other side of the coin' on posts like this. But you, the American people are the ones who made this decision for electing him as the presidential Democratic presidential candidate and somehow I don't think that the primary voters would choose a candidate just 'because he made people feel good' when there are pressing domestic and foreign issues that need to be adressed. Immediately. Oh, but I guess George Bush was voted in sans expereince because of his eleoquence and good looks. I think it is insulting to think that people are that stupid, but hey, you are entitled to your own opinion.

If you really think that, what do you think about your fellow citizens and their intellect? I think people (not all but most) are a bit more savvy than that, especially because of the current political climate.

Give me a break

Jane Devin — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 01:42:34 -0500

Underhanded tactics and a purposeful racial divide caused by the Clintons? Give me a break!

Hillary was excoriated by the party from the time she announced her candidacy. She -- a vetted politician who has worked hard for the US and the state of NY -- was unfairly mocked, ridiculed, taken out of context, and upbraided by a rabid media and lockstep Obama supporters.

He IS inexperienced! He spent the majority of his short stay in the Senate tubthumping for his Presidential candidacy. Oh, but he speaks so well. And let's not forget his good looks and eloquence. Or that his lack of experience hasn't given him much of a record to assail.

No, let's cheer him on for the highest office in the land, in a time of crisis, and then sing our praises for being so open, so past all that racism, and so anti-establishment.

Freaked out? You bet! We're putting a candidate in office NOT because he's the best person for the job, not because he has the best ideas or the best plans, but because he made so many people FEEL good. Mostly about themselves. It's narcissism at its best.

Yep, I'm one of the disgusted ones. You can call me angry, too. Having witnessed for several months the debacle of "news" sources like HuffPo, I realize my anger is futile. Substance doesn't sell as well as sex, and apparently experience and readiness doesn't sell as well as flowery speeches and being Oprah's new best friend.

Witnessing change

tangerinelullaby — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:46:00 -0500

I'm not an American citizen, but I was able to get updates from the news about Obama and Clinton. From my point of view, what happened would yield a great change in your country.

Not only that I am happy Obama won, 'cause I'm also rooting for him---I'm also happy that anyone can be what they want to be regardless of race and where you come from.

I have my respect to all of you. So no matter what they say, it won't bring you down, and it can't bring you down.

An observer,

Yvie

http://tangerineslullaby.eachday.com

The Democratic Nomination Race is Over – Will The Wounds Heal?

lainad — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:17:52 -0500

As much as I have been obsessed with the race for the Democratic race, I’m glad it’s over.

It was difficult to witness the underhanded tactics used primarily from the Clinton camp that used present racial divisions in American society to sway voters to support Hillary. It was disappointing that these race-tinged tactics came from a family of politicians that almost two decades earlier, relied on their African-American friends for political and personal support. It is also difficult, but like the Clinton situation not entirely surprising to see the media and notable political pundits use every conceivable racial stereotype about blacks to try to discredit Barak Obama’s candidacy. But now that fight is over, and another one- which might be worse - has just started.

Many people are getting ready for an attack from Republicans that some say will pale in comparison to what came from Democrats and other self-proclaimed ‘liberals.’ But I wonder, as some celebrate Obama’s nomination and some freak out over Hillary Clinton’s loss, how people will heal from the past sixteen months of infighting within the Democratic Party. Will African-Americans give the side-eye to their non-black friends and colleagues who believed the Muslim, ‘elitist’ and secretly Black Nationalist tendencies and that because of the color of his skin, that he is inherently inexperienced and naïve? Are we, as women supposed to forget about the sexist remarks and insinuations? Are black woman going to ignore the glaring lack of support from our white sisters when racist and sexist remarks were made about Michelle Obama? Some would like for everyone, especially black folks, to forgive and forget. Well, they couldn’t care about the forgiving part, just forgetting.

While in previous posts I have made very clear about how I hate when people group black people into one monolithic group, when it comes to the effect of racism, I’ll willingly eat my words. When people went after the Obamas, it hurt, and it angered me because the same things have been said about people based on the color of their skin. Not because they were successful or failures; not because they were educated or not, but simply because of the color of their skin. Here we have the first African-American man to capture the first legitimate presidential nomination and for some (an uncomfortable amount, BTW) they can only see him through the negative racial stereotypes. He will always be a Ni%^er. Someone who captured the nomination because of Affirmative Action or some other bullshit excuse. He will never deserve it because some feel that a white woman should always trump the rights of black men. God help that they think about black women!

I can comfortably say that millions of black folks have encountered the same racism that was faced by Obama, and we understand the unfairness of not being regarded because of our character but because of things that we cannot and do not want to change. So when we see it happening to an intelligent, successful man and his equally successful wife who did what needed to be done to capture the American Dream we get mad. After all, if it can happen to a Stanford, Yale –educated lawyer, what the hell is gonna happen to us?

Baratunde from Jack and Jill Politics who volunteered for the Obama campaign, writes an incredibly moving and optimistic post about the future:

I'll always call out wrong where I see it, and I'm not saying a simple kiss and make-up will undo the damage that has been wrought. As CPL mentioned in a recent post, I think both the Clintons need to make a Herculean effort to begin the healing process. Whether by attacking MoveOn.org or dismissing the votes of entire caucus states or (update) her remarks about RFK's assassination (/update), the damage resulting from many of their tactics will not simply disappear without effort. As Ricky Ricardo would say, "they got some 'splainin to do," and I know I'll never look at them the same.

However, I think Obama and all of his supporters also have work to do, not in wiping the slate clean with Hillary Clinton but in really trying to understand the experience of reasonable Hillary supporters who felt they had to defend her because they were defending something much larger than her. As with all things large, we can start small. I started by talking to actual Clinton supporters I knew, and I urge any pro-Obama folk out there to do the same.

So what should we do? Just ignore all the nonsense and move on? Well, in some ways we don’t have a choice. We should just revel in this historic movement and recognize that despite all the bullshit, Obama came out with the most delegate and super delegate votes. If things were really as bad as I sometimes believe they are, he wouldn’t even have gotten out of the gate. Even the notoriously cynical Field Negro weighed in:

We have had doubters like yours truly chirping about the Obamaholics and all his "O" love at every turn. And we have had the flat out racist (see the FAKE NEWS NETWORK and certain voters from the Appalachian states) who would just as soon vote for Charles Manson before they put a Negro family in their "white" House. And there has been the good too. Folks in states like Iowa and Oregon, Lilly white folks, ignoring the "O" man's race and buying into a movement….You gave your money your time and your votes. And without it, the "O" man would be slinking back to the South Side of Chicago to work on his bowling and his jump shot.

In discussing the future race with John MCcain and whether he will be able to play the same racial tricks, BlackSnob is also optimistic:

Barack has boldly gone where no black person has gone before, surpassing what I and many others ever imagined. Still dumbstruck, I can't offer much perspective or opinion on where we go from here because there is no historical data to draw back on. We've crossed the Rubicon, folks. We don't know what's waiting for us on the other side. That's both glorious and horrifying all at the same time. The sort of moment where those who were reluctant to get on board have no choice now. His winning made the decision for them. Just like the avalanche of superdelegates who came to put him over the top the minute the primaries were over. If you didn't come over with them it doesn't matter.

Moi? I’ll be one of those folks giving people the side-eye after they talked their ish. After all, once bitten, twice shy.

(Update: For those of you who require 'proof'' of racism in the Democratic Nomination race, please check out this Wiki)