BlogHer - Mars and Venus in the boardroom (or at BlogHer) - Comments

I was at BWB

Elisa Camahort — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:01:31 -0500

All speakers were people of color that I saw. And yes, there were non-POCs in attendance and it was an awesome atmosphere and environment.

Elisa Camahort Page
BlogHer
elisa@blogher.com

My BlogHer profile truly shows you everything I do online...Check it out!!

Or just take gender out of the equation

LizzieH — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:45:26 -0500

You could just take gender out of the equation completely and ask the BlogHer community for speaker suggestions. If there are men out there with something to say that we want to hear about, that will become obvious in the suggestions you get for speakers. If not, then it's not because they're men, it's because the community doesn't consider their areas of expertise to be interesting or relevant.

--Liz

I blog about creating a life worth living at: www.inventingmylife.blogspot.com

My perspective

hrwench — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:33:56 -0500

I'm conflicted on this issue.

On one hand, as a woman, if I belong to a group that supports women bloggers and attend their conference, I expect to hear from other women. I'm not opposed to hearing from a man at all. I was there, however, to relate to the speakers and attendees as sisters who understand first hand what it is like to be a woman in today's business climate.

On the other hand, it's my understanding that the recent Blogging While Brown conference did not require their speakers to be persons of color (if I am wrong, someone please correct me). At the same time, I imagine the individuals that attended that event were there to specifically connect with other bloggers of color. It is also my understanding that not all the attendees were persons of color, but like men at BlogHer 08, they were embraced and welcomed just the same.

Because I'm a nerdy human resources professional, I can't help but relate this situation to something we in the field know as Bona Fide Occupational Qualification (BFOQ) which is an exemption under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

We all know that not hiring someone based upon their sex, race, etc is against the law. However, if a job requires a BFOQ then hiring based on one of those protected categories is ok. It's a narrow exemption and rarely used. An example would be a job as a locker room attendant. If the locker room is for males, being a male job applicant is considered a BFOQ. A woman would not be eligible to work in that position and it would be perfectly legal to NOT hire her based upon her sex.

So, the way my nerdy brain works is to ask myself "is being a keynote speaker at BlogHer conferences a BFOQ?" My answer is: no.

Perhaps the answer is to poll the BlogHer community, as Jory has done in the past, but expand the "options". For example:

a) All keynote speakers should be women

b) 90% keynote speakers should be women and 10% should be men.

c) 80/20, etc, etc

HR Wench

Professor Kim's point is a good one!

clearwood — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 01:48:57 -0500

As a Scottish man who has recently started living with an American woman (in Scotland), I've been fascinated and to some extent horrified at just how sexist American society seems to be, and just how pressured too. From a European perspective, the lot of American women isn't great, but the lot of the American man is really ghastly! Unfeeling, driven, frightened, robots... Phew! No wonder you like to think they come from a different planet...

BlogHer Sexist ? .....Hogwash!

Jody DeVere -- Ask Patty — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 22:56:15 -0500

Jory,

I am a woman over 50 who has worked and owned businesses in male dominant industries, including automotive and high tech for over 30 years and have spent so much time over the years at conferences where women are a very small minority in attendence. To be criticized for being sexist for women only speakers at BlogHer is total hogwash in my book.

When men open the glass ceiling and inforce equality as a reality for women in business, politics for that matter in relationships...then THOSE men can come speak to us.

I applaud you, Lisa and Elisa for your tireless efforts with BlogHer to create a LOUD enough voice to collectively get our many voices heard.

Susan B. Anthony:

Men, their rights, and nothing more; women, their rights, and nothing less.

Jody DeVere
President
www.askpatty.com
www.carblabber.com

how much of it has to do with how different people blog?

Skye — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 22:43:41 -0500

Vered, perhaps some of it also has to do with how different people experience blogging itself? You've said before that for you, blogging is entertainment. For some people, it's much more personal and deeper, or part of what they see as their work in the world to make it a better place, or a gift they're giving to their children. So a lot more emotion would be attached to it.

Actually...

Skitzzo — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:43:10 -0500

I think having a vegan speak at a beef conference would be brilliant. Sure it wouldn't be easy and many wouldn't agree with what was presented but you'd be presenting the other side of an issue which IMO is always a good thing.

But you do bring up a very valid point, the brand. Is the brand about promoting equality through highlighting the fact that there obviously are qualified female presenters and speakers? Or is the brand simply about promoting women?

To me, one is a worthwhile endeavor that should not rely on sexist policies, while the other is simply the same type of sexism that women have fought against for ages.

Self-Fulfilling Prophecy?

Skitzzo — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:35:28 -0500

Jory, I'm glad to see that you don't think of us all as product pitches waiting to happen.

However, isn't asking your community whether or not to exclusively allow women to speak a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy? You're asking a community that is predominently female!

I understand that conferences have used the bogus excuse of not being able to find enough qualified women speakers in the past, but I don't see how it benefits you to fight gender descrimination with more descrimination.

If you think it's unfair when other conferences do it, why is it ok for yours?

Do You Feel The Same At Male Tech Conferences?

Gena Haskett — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:13:10 -0500

When 90 to 100% of the speakers are male and there had been repeated efforts to ask for inclusion?

Just asking?

Gena - Out On The Stoop

Hmm, do you mean me or Elisa?

Lisa Stone — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:38:00 -0500

Because, as you and I have discussed, the old Mars versus Venus thing doesn't work for me at all -- I agree to disagree.

Stereotypes are a dangerous business, IMHO. For me, the diversity of female and male behavior, even in oft-stereotyped Silicon Valley, crosses such a wide spectrum that I've never been able to get comfortable with statements such as "simply the difference in how men and women relate in business."

If anything, I feel my observations of people at the conference travel up and down the spectrum of introvert vs. extrovert, rather than gender. With the caveat that, of course, during BlogHer '08 I oversampled for women!

Lisa Stone
BlogHer Co-founder
Surfette

Strive for Equality

MichaelGray — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:06:01 -0500

It seems one of the core concepts that you all strive to promote is equality.

That women who are qualified should be paid just as much.

That women who are qualified should be given the promotion.

That women who are qualified should be given the opportunity.

That gender is irrelevant to getting the job done.

These are beliefs that you want to embrace, promote and share ... as long as they are't in your backyard. When it comes time to put your words into action and show that gender is irrelevant to getting the job done ... you fall back on the behavior that has been used by sexist men for centuries ... I have to say I find it dissapointing. So for those of you who are so quick to assume why I want to speak I suggest looking in the mirror and understanding why you don't want me to ... you might not like what you see.

When I come to a conference to speak my job is to be as much like Sesame Street as i can. Be entertaining and informative at the same time. if I've done my job maybe I've given you something you'll remember and think about when you get home.

I THINK You Missed The Point

alyssaroyse — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:51:28 -0500

I'm sure Jory or Lisa or Elisa will correct me if I'm wrong, but the point of BlogHer has always been to amplify women's voices. Most of us who come here come here specifically to hear from other women - and believe me there is PLENTY of disagreement, variance and controversy under the incredibly huge umbrella that is "femininty." Our point in coming here and being here is very much to hear from women. The secondary goal of many of us is precisely to show what a huge, diverse and powerful group we are. By all means, join us, share with us, engage with us. But in order to earn a place in our community you have to connect first, introduce yourself, engage genuinely and often and then we will form the kind of relationship on which we can do business..... Although, like Elisa, I am not one for generalities at all (and am usually a voice of dissent on this site that i LOVE so much) I do think that Jori is spot on that women want the whole package before we do business.

And I didn't find any "yes men" at BlogHer. If you're assuming that a room full of women are automatically going to support and agree with each other on issues, then you're working on a very Stepford idea of who women are. We disagree and argue ad infinitum, but we do it in an engaged way, a way that gets back to the relationship. Go through and read some of the threads here, especially the ones that deal with gender, race, religion, politics, sexuality, freedom of choice..... No "yes men" here, a hole lot of "hold on a sec sister!"

If you're upset that we didn't let you market to us in the way that you want to market to us, that is hardly a problem with BlogHer. They got us all in one big room and there were plenty of opportunities to engage with us, to be heard, to show us that you're in it with us. But the cardinal rule of marketing is that you need to speak the same language as your market. You go where they are, you don't ask them to come to you.

____________

Alyssa Royse

Just Cause It: A Web Site To Save The World

Start Her Up: A Blog for Women Entrepreneurs

Agreed.

zchamu — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:40:41 -0500

This nailed it for me:

"I imagine that Gray is perturbed by our policy because we have a
community of influencers, and getting in front of them would be good
for raising one's profile or promoting a business. From that standpoint
our policy prevents this from happening for men. HOWEVER, while the
conference is a great way for brands and people to get "in front" of
influencers, only the right conversations will "get through" to the
influencers. The value for the members is very different than what
someone outside that community may perceive it to be."

100% agreed. It appears Gray is disappointed because he sees this conference as a great way to promote himself, and he isn't able to do that due to the policy. But someone who only sees the BlogHer community as something that can help "him" isn't really the kind of person that the community wants to have speaking to them, whether they're male or female. In fact, nobody in this community wants to be spoken "to" at all; we all want to be spoken "with".

Edited to add - good to see you have joined the community, Michael; it's a great first step in realizing what this community is all about.

Visit my blogs at ThreeSeven (all that's irrelevant and amusing) and
ecochick (all that's green, cool and Canadian).

what is the point

MichaelGray — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:26:26 -0500

Is the point of the conference to provide a platform for women to speak or learn things and grow ? If it's growing and learning than the best thing to do hear from people who have different viewpoints than those of your own. Which is more educational being someplace that chalenges you to think about things in a way you didn't before, or to be surrounded by an echo chamber of "yes men" who agree with everything you say.

A Vegan Speaking at a Beef Conference

alyssaroyse — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:18:30 -0500

It's funny to me that this somehow got complicated. Well, maybe not, it's what I would expect in a society that equates equality with quantifiable things like "face time." But BlogHer has always been about aggregating women's voices. Not because we don't like men, or are mad at them or anything else. But BlogHer is about women's voices. We tune in to hear what women ahve to say. After all, men's voices are EVERYWHERE.

So, to me, having men keynote makes about as much sense as having a vegan keynote a conference about beef. Even a well-intentioned vegan would have a hard time speaking from an authentic place of understanding about the experience and perspective of someone who loves beef enough to go to a beef conference.

As for using the communication styles to further ourselves.... I cannot imagine a better way to learn about HOW to reach women than to attend BlogHer. Are we all the same? No! But I do think that - in general - women use relationships as the most valuable commodity in the commerce that is both our personal and professional lives. BlogHer, in that way, is not new at all. Tupperware? Mary Kay? Major companies built on the fact that women trust women with whom they have relationships. Smart men and women used BlogHer to engage, connect, listen, learn and reach out LATER.

The even smarter men (like the cutie pattottie who has a pic of his kid on his back as his avatar) have been here for ages, engaging the community by being part of it, not being an onlooker.

Learning how people communicate is not a generalization, it is smart. We need to learn how men and women communicate, and then understand that there are huge variables that are not dependent on cup size or ball size. But being fluent in all of it is the way we build brands, constituencies, relationships, lives and businesses.

For what it's worth though, I do believe that men build on relationships also. We just call it cronyism. :) Gotta meet people where they're at.

It's not a question of being exclusionary, it's a simple question of knowing what your brand / product is. Yours is the strongest collection of female voices out there. Why would you lead with something that wasn't your brand?

____________

Alyssa Royse

Just Cause It: A Web Site To Save The World

Start Her Up: A Blog for Women Entrepreneurs

Mars and Venus in the boardroom (or at BlogHer)

Jory Des Jardins — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 22:50:18 -0500

I wrote before the BlogHer Conference about being a non-blogger (or sponsor) at the event, and even offered this up for male attendees:

Men and women network differently. We often seek some form of commonality before we decide to team up with each other. (Men:) Careful of the hard sell, ...:

Still, that didn't necessarily preclude men from trying to talk shop.

Last weekend, after moderating a highly charged and rewarding session on Naked Blogging, a number of women approached me to say that the panel was meaningful to them. Shortly afterward a friendly, young man made his way over to me. He complimented me on the panel and then began to pitch his business.

I wasn't certain initially why this was such a turn-off for me. The man was courteous, waiting his turn to speak with me. And at other conferences, most of them "business" events, where I speak I am used to people handing me their card and asking me to consider their service, or view a demo. But this panel was different. We had been discussing some painful moments we--panelists and audience--had experienced as personal bloggers, some of them tear-jerking, some of them life-threatening.

And yes, most of us in the room were women.

One of my panelists, Mena Trott, has a business in the Blogosphere and a vested interest in reaching the attendees, but rather than speak about her product she spoke about her personal blogging. I'll bet that her compassion and openness resonated more with attendees than her company's marketing efforts outside that room.

The next day I met with two women who were building their business and wanted some advice. Interspersed in our discussion about advertising models were stories about raising kids, our spouses, our families. It occurred to me that the difference between this and my conversation with the man who approached me the day before was simply the difference in how men and women relate in business. The poor guy wasn't being evil or inappropriate; he was simply compartmentalizing; but women tend to combine things more. By virtue of relating to these women who were telling me about their harried lives, I was more willing to help them with their business.

Not everyone embraces this subtle difference, or sees the opportunity in it. Michael Gray made very clear that he feels BlogHer discriminates against men because of our women-only speaker policy (for the record: men and women are welcome to attend BlogHer). And plenty of people responded to Gray--men and women--supporting our policy. I can appreciate Gray's opinion on the matter and contrary to what some of our supporters may say, do not think that men should not speak at BlogHer because women are still the minority in the industry. I believe that women should be speakers because of the innate spirit that we bring to the conversations that we are trying to create at the conference. Men, of course, can join those conversations, but not all men will enter them in the intended fashion.

Here's what I mean: I imagine that Gray is perturbed by our policy because we have a community of influencers, and getting in front of them would be good for raising one's profile or promoting a business. From that standpoint our policy prevents this from happening for men. HOWEVER, while the conference is a great way for brands and people to get "in front" of influencers, only the right conversations will "get through" to the influencers. The value for the members is very different than what someone outside that community may perceive it to be. We are there to connect and promote ourselves, but this happens very differently for women. It's not about the number of people we get in front of, but the quality of interactions we've had. Men who want visibility at BlogHer will get it by giving a keynote, but the quality of visibility will depend on the conversations he's had with the attendees--as a session participant, at the parties, or in follow-up posts he writes and responds to after the event.

While there were plenty of things that both men and women had to say about this weekend's New York Times story about BlogHer, I take away comments from a 62-year-old man who wrote to me (and possibly my co-founders) after reading the piece. While I don't agree with all of his observations, I appreciate his views and his thoughtfulness. After sharing that he was going to send the NYT piece to his daughter (who may very well be my age) he added:

I worked with women in Washington DC and in Hospitals for more than 30 years...Gosh, is it or at least was it hard to get women to participate and move forward. The nursing profession is and was very female. They have their own secret handshakes, and their own deliberative process. They don't want to take the lead and they don't want to follow either. Now that is a bad combination.

Also, there have been studies of women's communications. It is more spoke and hub with a wheel configuration. While men's is more the traditional pyramid. That spoke and hub is hard to use in organization management and control.

I don't think mine is the last word on the subject, but your group should get some professional researchers to accurately describe why, how, etc on the communication patterns and styles of women.

One article on that topic in the Times, some years ago, said that "Women had to be 'in relationship' to effectively communicate with each other. I have found that to be true. Men don't need to be 'in relationship" to communicate.

What strikes me here is that the reader seems less critical of women's ways in the workplace as curious to understand why we don't just do the deal, negotiate equal pay, or stand up for ourselves. He, and Gray to some extent, think that we're perpetuating behaviors that keep us from parity. But we're really just interested in perpetuating behaviors that provide the connections we need to move forward.

If we replace "communicate" in the note above with "engage" or "endorse" or "enter into a business relationship with" then I would agree with it. We do need more connection before we take your card. Obviously that's not always realistic, but in a roomful of women it is. The fellow who approached me at that panel did so because BlogHer represents a targeted demographic, period. Women approached me because they related to the panel.

Interestingly, a woman I had never met in person before the conference, who had been in touch with me about business matters, attended that session. She approached me afterward with tears in her eyes, she said, because she was having such an amazing experience at BlogHer.

"You must think I'm nuts," she said.

Actually, no. It was just business.