BlogHer - McCain and Obama: The Politics of Healthcare - Comments

Actually...

Janers0217 — Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:27:56 -0500

I don't have a problem affording my health care. I get covered by Medicare and Medicaid since I'm on Disability and SSI. It isn't the best thing in the world, but that isn't the insurance's fault. It's the fault of the doctors who believe they're too good to take my government issued insurance. Instead of going to all private doctors, sometimes I have to go to public ones, like mental health centers instead of private psychiatrists. That sucks, but I would rather have the coverage I have than have no coverage at all.

Janet + http://fuzzypinkslippers.com = love

http://urban-sunrise.net - a blog for 18-25 year olds

You may not know the half of

miteegirl — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 09:29:37 -0500

You may not know the half of it.

Between 1989 and 1994, I negotiated benefits (medical, dental, life, etc.) for a Fortune 500 company.

What an education I received in greed and wasteful spending!

--We could not get insurers to agree on a common standard of forms and processes for administering benefits and claims. Sounds kind of like a dumb issue to focus on? Well, we were seeing doctors' offices go from having to pay one administrator to 4 or 5 adminstrators just to keep up with each insurers'. This was exponentially increasing costs to doctors and affecting medical/dental bills, which the insurers would pass along in increased premiums. it was ridiculous.

--Insurers set up premiums to cover four things:

Claims > this money pays the medical bills
Administration > what the insurance co. tells us that it costs them to adminsiter benefits
Reserves > between 3-4 months of projected claims as a "cushion"
Stop-Loss > the insurance premium that is charged for individual claims over a certain extreme amount (if your claim costs more than $1 million, for example, anything over the first million is paid by stop-loss)

There is NO motivation set up within the system for insurers to control their administrative costs. None. Unless a company is self-insured (which is rare as only the largest companies can afford that), the insurance company also collects and pockets any interest and dividends made in the investment of the reserves. This is an ENORMOUS amount of money. Billions.

The free market system has almost no effect on insurance company costs to the consumer. There are no benefits to the insurance company to become more cost-effective and efficient. None. Nada. Especially since insurance coverage can be limited geographically so competition is more scarce.

When my husband attended a meeting at Blue Cross/Blue Shield Illinois a few months ago, a company representative was bragging about the fact that she had to invent opportunities to offer training within the company because her budget had so much money that she couldn't spend it all fast enough.

That is a moral outrage.

And Democrats should not be the only ones furious about this. Republicans who own businesses and pay insurance premiums are being fleeced as well.

Dealing with Insurance Codes

chronic chick — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 00:16:35 -0500

A lot of the issues with insurance companies are a nightmare. They code things in numbers so we can't understand them. Forgetting to say we can ask what the diagsosis code means. I've dealt with the craziness of things being coded wrong and then I end up with a bill. Its a nightmare. Its ashame people have become numbers to the insurance companies and forgetting part of their roll should be to improve human life not to get richer and richer while the poor get poorer. It just don't ad up. The amount of drug commerical on TV is unreal. How do you explain for instance what so and so drug is for . I'm sure a few people cring when there 2 yr old starts repeating things. Imaging them saying in the preschool " I saw the CIalias TV show".

Chronic Chick Talk

Who Deserves Healthcare, and Who Should Pay For It?

Catherine Morgan — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 10:46:08 -0500

It seems the questions about healthcare always comes down to who really "deserves" it, and who should pay for it.

Here is my take...

Where do your taxes go? Is too much going to help people who can't or won't help themselves? Let's check it out and see...

This is from National Priorities.org...

Ok - To make this a little easier to understand, I'm going to use $100 as the amount of taxes we break-down to see where they are going. However, anyone can go to this site and put their actual number in and get a specific breakdown for themselves.

So, let's check this out.

So, 22 dollars of 100 goes to Health/Medicare ($458 billion) is the federal funds portion of all health spending by the federal government, including the federal funds spending on Medicare.

And, 9 dollars of 100 goes to Anti-Poverty Programs ($179.4 billion) includes federal funds outlays on the sub-function areas food and nutrition assistance ($54.5 billion) and other income security. Other income security includes Supplemental Security Income ($38.5 billion) which provides cash assistance to disabled, elderly and blind who have very low incomes; payments where Earned Income Tax Credit exceeds tax liability ($38.3 billion); Temporary Assistance for Needy Families ($16.9 billion); payments where child credit exceeds tax liability ($16.2 billion); foster care and adoption assistance ($6.6 billion); child care spending and a variety of other small programs for children and families.

And, 4 dollars of 100 to Education, Training and Social Services ($90.6 billion) includes all federal funds outlays on the function area of the same name which includes the following subfunction areas: elementary, secondary, and vocational education, higher education, and research and general education aids, training and employment, other labor services, and social services.

And, 3 dollars of 100 goes to Housing and Community Development ($69.2 billion) includes all federal funds outlays defined by the federal government as housing assistance ($39.7 billion), and the function area of community and regional development ($29.5 billion).

Most of our tax dollars (52 dollars of 100) are going to the Iraq war and the military...

This is how much the Iraq war is costing you...

$4,681 per household.

$1,721 per person.

$341.4 million per day.

You can go here to see what the Iraq war is costing your community.

So, do we pay too much in taxes, YES. But, it's not because we are compassionately providing some of our tax dollars to services for the sick, impoverished, and the hungry...It's because the average tax payer is being forced to pay more in taxes because our government is letting multi-million/billion/trillion dollar corporations avoid paying taxes.

Don't be mad about how much of your tax dollar is going to help needy Americans...Be mad about all the tax dollars that are NOT being collected from corporations making millions and billions and trillions each year that could be reducing your taxes and subsidizing programs that could be helping the needy among us even more than we already do (which isn't enough).

This report does not even include all the millions in tax credits our government is giving out to huge corporations (such as oil), or corporate welfare.

This is were the anger needs to be directed, not at each other.

From Marketplace...

Lemme get your reaction to something here for a second. If I told you there was a report out today showing two thirds of all Americans didn't pay any income taxes, would you be surprised? Outraged, maybe? If you are, calm down. There's no report saying that at all. But there is a study out today from the Government Accountability Office saying something similar. It finds that between 1998 and 2005, two thirds of companies in this country had at least one year where they didn't pay any federal income tax. So, back to the outrage. Where is it?

(AP) Two-thirds of U.S. corporations paid no federal income taxes between 1998 and 2005, according to a new report from Congress.

The study by the Government Accountability Office, expected to be released Tuesday, said about 68 percent of foreign companies doing business in the U.S. avoided corporate taxes over the same period.

Collectively, the companies reported trillions of dollars in sales, according to GAO's estimate.

"It's shameful that so many corporations make big profits and pay nothing to support our country," said Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D., who asked for the GAO study with Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich.

An outside tax expert, Chris Edwards of the libertarian Cato Institute in Washington, said increasing numbers of limited liability corporations and so-called "S" corporations pay taxes under individual tax codes.

"Half of all business income in the United States now ends up going through the individual tax code," Edwards said.

The GAO study did not investigate why corporations weren't paying federal income taxes or corporate taxes and it did not identify any corporations by name. It said companies may escape paying such taxes due to operating losses or because of tax credits.

More than 38,000 foreign corporations had no tax liability in 2005 and 1.2 million U.S. companies paid no income tax, the GAO said. Combined, the companies had $2.5 trillion in sales. About 25 percent of the U.S. corporations not paying corporate taxes were considered large corporations, meaning they had at least $250 million in assets or $50 million in receipts.

*Here is another interesting site on where your tax dollars are going, and how the government is trying to deceive the public about the real numbers.

Contributing Editor Catherine Morgan
at Catherine-Morgan.com, The Political Voices of Women, Care2 Election

While I sort of agree on SOME points...

Crunchy Carpets — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 18:30:40 -0500

stuff like this bothers me.."Every bit of everyone's efforts count in this war, and this IS a vital war, and WE MUST WIN."

It is not a war. A war would consist of two equal sides duking it out.

Right now...it is what....who is the enemy in Iraq?

I agree that it must not be another Vietnam, but again....this "war" has nothing to do with the troops losing their lives and limbs and all about big politics and politicians finding themselves in something that they had NO CLUE about and no real idea on how to handle.

Iraq had nothing to do with safety and security..it was all about OIL and making a US stronghold in the MID East.

But how do you get out..how do you back out when the people ...won't stop fighting.

Honestly, I wouldn't WISH Iraq on Obama....McCain should be the one to clean up the disaster that that is.

Focus should have been kept on Obama, Al Queada and Afghanistan and Pakistan...where they are all hiding out...all hiding there and sending people and munitions to Iraq.

Focus should be on the Saudi's who while smiling away at the US are happily building terrorist schools all over the world.

Focus should be on the business behind the oil..OPEC and so on....

There is NO victor in a war of attrition....

There will be no sudden end and dancing on the streets with this one.

Look for me at http://crunchycarpets.com or check out the ladies at www.wetcoastwomen.com

Clarify

Denise — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 17:34:00 -0500

BlogHer doesn't have "moderators" per se... we have contributing editors and some staff members (like me!) and none of us asked for this discussion to stop or move back in another direction. It looks like the only CE in the discussion is Virginia and she made the first comment. :-)

It probably is a good idea to start a new blog post and carry on there, but sometimes discussions get hijacked accidentally because they're important to have. It happens and that's ok.

:-)

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

Flamingo House Happenings

-deleted-

shelleyp — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 16:02:02 -0500

-deleted by author-

Elusive

L16 — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 15:13:07 -0500

"Being able to have better jobs and more affordable schooling are not even the third or fourth layer up!"

In McCain's speech he said this:

"Education is the civil rights issue of this century. Equal access to public education has been gained. But what is the value of access to a failing school? We need to shake up failed school bureaucracies with competition, empower parents with choice, remove barriers to qualified instructors, attract and reward good teachers, and help bad teachers find another line of work."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=94302894

I disagree that education is the civil rights issue of this century. I believe health care is. I did a ctrl-f of health care on McCain's speech and it is only discussed in vague terms, and mentioned 8 times in his almost hr long speech. His website has a page where he talks about offering $5,000 per family to obtain health care from existing providers but that doesn't address the fact that Americans spend over $6,000 per PERSON on health care right now (according to the post at the top of this comment listing).

You make some good points above. Obviously if one doesn't think Obama is fit to properly end the Iraqi war then they would be foolish to vote for him. My support for Obama is based on the previously arrived at decision that he can adequately end the war in Iraq. After that issue, I look to domestic issues and health care jumps out as being very important. Education is not the civil rights issue of this century like John McCain said. You agree. While McCain may be good in foreign affairs I don't trust him with domestic issues. This is another quote from his site, for one of his proposals:

"A one-year spending pause. Freeze non-defense, non-veterans discretionary spending for a year and use those savings for deficit reduction. "

http://www.johnmccain.com/Issues/JobsforAmerica/reform.htm

Your comments indicated that Obama would be susceptible to the views of his advisers. I think that this is a good thing and believe that Obama would allow people of McCains's pedigree in foreign affairs to be one such adviser. It is possible to win the war in Iraq and have a country worth coming home to, under Obama in my opinion.

This has absolutely nothing to do with health care

Tacomamama — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 15:02:30 -0500

and I do not believe that Barack Obama is "weak" or will simply tell everyone to go home the day he is elected.

In regards to the Iraq war, the situation is extremely complex and I have confidence in the very smart people surrounding Obama (as well as the man himself) to carefully weigh all the issues. Don't forget, it was the former democratic president who told our current Commander in Chief that he would spend much of his time preventing terrorist attacks, and it was a Republican who chose to ignore those warnings, go on vacation, and pile more money into missile defense.

Democrats and Republicans are both capable of making terrible judgments in matters of military strategy and national defense. I believe General Ulysses S Grant was the highest ranking member of the military ever to serve as president, and he is roundly acknowledged to be one of the worst presidents in American history.

I am not willing to throw away every issue important to me on the domestic front out of fear for our international security, particularly in the absence of any actual evidence that McCain will perform better in this capacity.

Anyway...not at all related to health care. Except to say that I would like some, and I am tired of the "be afraid" argument getting in the way of anything our country might actually accomplish.

Tacoma Mama

Melanie, each of thinks

shelleyp — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 14:50:45 -0500

Melanie, each of thinks those who don't agree with us are ignorant. That's why we debate, rather than spend our time doing other, most likely more worthwhile tasks.

"Founding Fathers" and Originalists don't really go together, do they?

As for our founding fathers...

In the interest of political expediency they denied women the vote

Many were slave holders, and supported slavery

Many believed that only property holders should have the right to vote or hold office

Framing Constitutional decisions based on the views held by the Founding Fathers means you want to give up your right to vote, Melanie, because our right to vote only came about later, via Amendment.

As for my accusations at Queen, she has implied that those of us without health insurance are lazy and undeserving, that the only problem with the health care system is it provides too much, and that her grasp of Constitutional law is vastly superior to my own. If I said what I really wanted to say to Queen, I would be banned for life from Blogher.

Again, I must apologize for going off topic. However, the issue of universal health care really is focused on how one views the Constitution, and what type of society our country will be going into the future. It is the tip of the iceberg of a much broader topic, and debate.

Healthcare or Safety First?

elusivelise — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 14:46:21 -0500

We must not elect a weak leader in this time. We have troops in Iraq right now fighting to serve our country. Don't let this be another Vietnam. Don't let our nation be turned over into the hands of someone who, though sincere, is sincerely misguided, and is, what I believe, a blank slate in the hands of puppeteers who would propel this nation into DEPTHS of darkness, and entrench us in corruption and danger we can't even begin to fathom nor understand. For those of us who still believe in the necessity of, the sacrifice in, and the commitment to VICTORIOUS wars - We MUST WIN!!! We MUST act now!!!

We have two heroes on the ticket - and only two. I see the good heart in John McCain, and the willingness to truly serve, even though differentiating from the conventional "party wisdom" (I truly do NOT agree with him on every point). But I am glad that he still retains some of that old school "get-it-done", "don't-give-up-even-through-unbelievable-opposition" attitude that has stuck out to me in a man, whose lifetime of experience, sacrifice, and perserverance have crafted a warrior.

Speaking of conserving energy and rescuing the economy, check out the modest stage used at the DNC - it looks like it came straight out of Vegas. Now you know where your tax dollars are going. You won't have to worry about anything if we have a liberal, *ahem* socialist White House - the government promises to care of everything for you. If that's before or AFTER we get blown up with nukes, you'd have to ask them.

What IS important, is that we learn to conserve, be modest with spending, and take care for our decisions - build a fence at the top of the hill, instead of putting an ambulance at the bottom of the hill. Also, FOLLOW THROUGH - don't start out on something without the intention to finish it - and finish it right. DON'T LET OUR TROOPS COME HOME IN DISGRACE, as if their sacrifice has been an unavoidable mistake because of the president (oh, please). God forbid.

Every bit of everyone's efforts count in this war, and this IS a vital war, and WE MUST WIN. We must not switch horses mid-stream, switch plans, and decide to put better jobs, healthcare reform, and the lovely environment above COMPLETION and VICTORY in our worldwide battle for national safety and security. In a hierarchy of psychological human needs, safety and security are fundamentally at the base of the pyramid. Being able to have better jobs and more affordable schooling are not even the third or fourth layer up!

Our Health Care System is Fiscally Stupid

Tacomamama — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 14:30:08 -0500

Laying aside the issue for a moment (but I will get back there) of compassion and equal opportunity, let's just look at it from a dollars and cents perspective.

Lack of access to health insurance leads to:

- delayed (or no) preventive care

- ignoring or "sucking it up" through early symptoms of serious illness

- not knowing that you have basic, treatable health issues such as type II diabetes, high blood pressure, or heart disease

- delayed (or no) maternal care

When small problems eventually snowball into serious ones, patients either

- present themselves to emergency rooms with severe emergencies (which the state will pay for, and may never see a bill paid) leading to a big bill that can't be paid, negative marks on credit, and inability to buy/rent a home, buy a car, and participate fully in the economy

- die. Leaving families devastated and without a breadwinner

- Face years of medical bills for long-term treatment, leading to bankruptcy for their whole family (or divorce) and eventually medicare/medicaid

The end result? Lost wages, loss of economic participation by entire families, divorce, abortion, premature birth, infant mortality, chronic illness, death....and in the end the state pays for it anyway. Because at minimum we do still seem to believe it would be unacceptable to simply allow people to expire from painful cancers or injuries, in the street. Ultimately, it would cost less just to provide preventive and regular health care for all Americans. But I guess our lives would be less enriched by all of these wonderful Dickensian stories we get to tell.

Bottom line: there really is no point to continuing the system as stands now, unless you are part of an insurance or pharmaceutical company or hold some very questionable belief that caring for the sick is somehow immoral.

Tacoma Mama

Those Damn Founding

miteegirl — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 14:29:37 -0500

Those Damn Founding Fathers...what did they know, anyhow?

In general, the great can protect themselves, but the poor and humble require the arm and shield of law. -- Andrew Jackson, 1821

It is a reproach to religion and government to suffer so much poverty and so much excess. -- William Penn, 1693

To provide employment for the poor, and
support for the indigent, is among the primary, and, at the
same time, not least difficult cares of the public authority. - James Madison, 1820

I have no doubt that the misery of the lower classes will be found to abate wherever the Government assumes a freeer aspect, and the laws favor a subdivision of property. -- James Madison, 1786

"It is only in civilized nations where extremes are to be found in the
human species -- it is here where wealthy and dignified morals roll along the
streets in all the parade and trappings of royalty, while the lower class are
not half so well fed as the horses of the former. It is this cruel inequality
which has given rise to the epithets of nobility, vulgar, mob, canaille, etc.
and the degrading but common observation -- Man differs more from man, than man
from beast -- The difference is purely artificial. Thus do men create an
artificial inequality among themselves and then cry out it is all natural." - Robert Coram, 1791

Guard against the postures of pretended Patriotism. - George Washington, 1796

I have not found men's honesty to increase with their riches. - Thomas Jefferson, 1800

I wasn't trying to sucker-punch you

Queen1 — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 14:17:07 -0500

Queen1

www.whenwearequeen.squarespace.com

I was just aware that the moderator had intervened and didn't want to show her disrespect by continuing the religious debate at the expense of the original topic. We had ranged pretty far afield and taken the conversation in an entirely different direction. Which was fine with me--I'm really enjoying it, but I didn't want to be rude.

I posted a long piece on my thoughts about what you wrote over at my blog. You can access it there and post comments or I may try to get it copied over here on a different thread.

But for now, I have to find something besides frozen pizza to feed the masses tonight. There's a whole riff right there about trying to feed children something that doesn't come from a box and require a microwave.

I don't think what I wrote was incendiary. I do think there is much to discuss about your view of the Gospel and mine--just not right here.

Hehe, no not meant at you or

L16 — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 14:07:17 -0500

Hehe, no not meant at you or anyone Shelley - I got sucked into some general snark so I deleted it. I am the type to apologize for no reason. I have serious people pleasing problems :)

McCain and Obama: The Politics of Healthcare

Catherine Morgan — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 03:11:38 -0500

A new report is out about insurance and health care, and it's not good. If you think the cost of health care is high now, just wait...It's going to get even higher. Who would have thought that you could have insurance, and still not be able to afford healthcare? How is that possible? Only in America.

A few weeks ago I posted about the rising cost of prescription drugs, now it's copays and premiums that will be increasing. Even people who have insurance and prescription drug plans, still can't afford their medications. I thought insurance was suppose to "insure" we have quality and affordable health care? Not so much.

The United States spends more of its income on health care than any nation on earth, nearly $6,000 per person per year, more than 15 percent of our total income. In contrast, the countries of the European Monetary Union spend about $2,500 per person per year, less than 10 percent of their income.

The United States is very rich and we spend the most in the world on health care. We have a right to expect more for our money than a life expectancy outcome that places us thirtieth in the world, behind Singapore, Chile, and Costa Rica as well as Australia, New Zealand, Japan, and every Western European nation.

Our health care system certainly delivers innovations in pharmaceutical and other technologies. It leads the world in Nobel Prizes for medicine and physiology. But it does not deliver medical care equitably to all Americans. Those who can pay have access to the best health care in the world. Those with good insurance plans—a decreasing fraction of the population—get good, life-extending health care. The rest must make do. And the result is that enough people fall through the cracks to place us at the bottom of the rich country life expectancy tables.

Here is some of what other women bloggers are saying about the rising cost of health care.

From Green LA Girl...

Our health care system’s so fucked up that people are getting married — and considering divorce! — simply due to health insurance issues. In the NY Times: “For today’s couples, “in sickness and in health” may seem less a lover’s troth than an actuarial contract. They marry for better or worse, for richer or poorer, for co-pays and deductibles.”

From MOMocrats...

Under McCain’s Plan, Health Insurance Benefits Would be Taxed For The First Time, Resulting In A $3.6 Trillion Tax Increase On Working Families. McCain’s health care plan would eliminate the payroll deduction on health care benefits, which would have the effect of raising taxes on working families by $3.6 trillion. [New York Times, 5/1/08]
The Health Care Tax Credit McCain Offers Would Cover Less Than Half The Cost Of An Average Health Care Plan. The McCain health plan would give families a $5,000 tax credit to purchase health insurance. However, in 2007, the average family health insurance plan cost $12,000 – more than double the value of McCain’s health care tax credit. [“Employer Health Benefits 2007 Annual Survey,” Kaiser Family Foundation, 9/11/07; “‘Call To Action’ On Health Care Reform,” John McCain 2008 press release, 4/29/08; Wall Street Journal, 10/11/07]

From Just Random's presidential wish list...

Universal Health Care (or at least affordable health care) – Why is the United States the only modernized country with out some form of universal health care? I know an argument could be made for the U.S. having the best health care, but why can’t we have both, come on some one smarter than me make it happen. Every child in this country should have access to health care.

From Christian Liberal's Weblog...

Whatever the case, it’s surprising that so many self-professed Christians, and especially the evangelical type, are so eager to maul, mangle and manipulate those words, those lessons, so that it comes out as “every man for himself”, which of course is the exact opposite of the meaning and spirit of those teachings.

They’ll use phrases like “self-determination” or “market forces”, but it’s really just code words for “you’re on your own” and “don’t expect any help from me.” Likewise, they will use negative words to describe the concept. It’s been found that a majority of Americans favors universal healthcare, but if you change the language to “socialized medicine” the approval rating drops below 50%. And the greed-oriented apologists are quite expert at word-smithing.

The point is, any good-hearted Christian would not begrudge the care given to a needy neighbor.

Are you having trouble affording health care? Are you hoping if Obama is elected, things might get a little better? Are you worried, that if McCain is elected, things will get worse?

Contributing Editor Catherine Morgan
at Catherine-Morgan.com, The Political Voices of Women, Care2 Election