BlogHer - Here's A Way To Help Revive America's Economy: Should Poor Women be 'Offered' Sterilization? - Comments

Mothercrone--yes, and yes, but also . . .

Kpvega — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 02:14:30 -0500

I am sorry about the loss of your baby. I lost a daughter to anencephaly, we chose to carry her to full term, but I know that it is devastating whatever choice you make.

Yes, one of the reasons they want you to wait is because Catholics believe babies are a blessing everyone should want. And yes, those who feel bad for you think a new, healthy baby would make you happy and make it better. I've since had two healthy girls while on high doses of folic acid, but I didn't have them to "replace" the baby i lost. It doesn't work that way, but people don't get that unless they've been through it.

But also, six months out from a loss like that can still be an emotional time for some. Especially since it is still considered within the window for post-partum depresion. OBs are careful not to take measures like that with post-partum women.

If you truly don't want a child, they'll listen eventually. As for the genes, I think part of the evil of eugenics is deciding that some beings deserve weeding out. Clearly, weeding out by race, or gender, or sexual orientation is evil. But some of us believe babies with birth defects are also children of God, worth our love.

Kristi Vega BabyPhilosophy.com -- diapers, slings, & babythings

Wanna hear something almost as weird?

mothercrone — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:06:10 -0500

I asked for sterilization and was denied it. Truth here.

Our daughter had hydranencephaly. I was at huge risk of uterine rupture and she was "nonviable" as they so bluntly term it, so cesarean was scheduled four days after we found out there was a problem. Testing showed that I have a genetic mutation that caused her birth defect, likely caused my son's medical condition, and likely caused the miscarriage. I requested tubal ligation at the time of surgery.

I was told I had to wait at least six months to be sterilized. Now I'm being "counseled" to reconsider the possibility of pregnancy in the future since "it's highly manageable" with heparin and nutritional support (heavy, heavy doses of folic acid). But here's the thing - I know I'd be passing these crap genes on. However, since I'm 26, (to the eye) white (always remember you can't tell someone's race by looking at their skin), and married, with an insurance plan, it's assumed I should want to have more kids, others know my mind better than I do.

Six months out from my daughter's birth and death, I still don't feel a strong desire to have another child, and I'm still being told I should wait and see. I am getting pressure from all sides to procreate, my family included. How long can I hold out? Well, probably as long as my OB/GYN can keep the Depo coming. Is this because our local hospital is a Catholic institution, or is this just because everyone thinks I can replace my daughter and that will make it all ok? If we've got reproductive choices, why aren't women allowed to make those choices without undue pressure that's dependent on their situation?

how much should we pay attention to this bulls*it?

Nordette — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 12:47:41 -0500

Yes, that is the question, Laina. Everytime it comes up we need to pay attention to make sure it doesn't sneak up on us and end up in passable legislation somewhere. It's possible that Louisiana would pass something like this if no one were watching and if LaBruzzo actually provides his so-called "research" in the right packaging later. Some of our legislators are chomping at the bit to do something like this under cover of building a bigger, better tax base.

In addition, those who know about Louisiana politics also know that LaBruzzo is a Metarie politician. That's a locale that absolutely loved the late Harry Lee, a man who defended decisions like preventing black people from New Orleans from leaving the city via his parish during Katrina. He pretty much said their lives were less important than the houses in his parish that he assumed they would vandalize as they walked through.

People don't speak up because they think an actual state eugenics policy won't ever happen "for real" but it can happen and has happened before in the guise of other programs to "help" society's poor and afflicted or under cloak of medical science. It's amazing how it comes off so sweetly that "we care for you so much that we'll make sure your kind's not ever born again."

I like the quotes around "offered" in your headline. LaBruzzo's idea is not an offer as much as it is a bribe to the most desperate among us. Tricky, nasty dirty tricks. And if we let it go and write him off as a looney, southern politician, then we're the idiots he takes us for. There are lots of people, even people who should know better, that agree with him and so he could gain a following.

I argued with Yvette on my post from the premise that it may actually be better for Salazar (the 20-year-old mother the judge told to stop having children while on 10-year probation) if she doesn't have children for a time, as the judge's order instructs. But aside from my asserting the wisdom of her waiting to have children until she's strong enough to handle herself, a child, and to avoid abusive men, which is something a counselor might advise to her, I think the judge's ruling is scary. I was suprised that Yvette was the only person to speak up on that post for zero tolerance of eugenics and zero tolerance for the right of the state to tell people to have or not have children.

I think it's because the circumstances of the case, knowing that a child was beaten severely by her father, Salazar's boyfriend, clouds the issue of the state being presumptuous enough to tell citizens how and when to reproduce. And I confess, I played the Devil's advocate going for all the emotional reasons why it would be okay in some circumstances. The public is easily swayed by emotional arguments. If anyone doesn't believe that they only need to look at how we ended up in Iraq and review the Bush administration's talking points.

The truth is that it's never a good thing for the state to decide who should and shouldn't reproduce because it opens the door to broader policies. And offering an incentive to be sterilized is tampering with genuine choice, which is why I included in my post the program that pays crack addicts to become sterilized.

We should speak out whenever we hear even the hint of such things.

Nordette is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link.

Education and Information are Key

JC — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 20:04:33 -0500

This is such an alarming thread. I recently finished a course in cultural geography where we studied population trends and different state-mandated birth control programs such as those offered in China and India.

What we found in our class was that education is the key to empowering women. Education and access to information is what can empower a woman to take control of her own life, and in some impoverished countries, women are given micro loans to start their own businesses. When the women have their own business and are not dependent on a man (and not under his thumb), they'll naturally take control of their own lives and, as a result, have fewer children.

Perhaps we as a society can focus on education and empowering poor women. Poverty is not a crime, but sometimes it sure feels that way.

JC of StoryRhyme.com

Spread the Joy!

http://www.storyrhyme.com/jcsblog

OMGoodness, Megan!

Nordette — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 10:14:27 -0500

Thank you for giving me the first laugh of my Monday. :-)

Nordette is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link.

Not Just A Louisiana Issue

JessSanders — Sun, 28 Sep 2008 14:04:42 -0500

The women on this post are amazing, I continue to be inspired by you.

The legislation that John LaBruzzo is suggesting affects not just women within the state of Louisiana but women in EVERY state. We need to let him and other legislators know that we don't think it's OK.

You can contact LaBruzzo and the Louisiana House of Reps here:

http://house.louisiana.gov/h_reps/members.asp?ID=81

You can contact your own federal and state elected officials here:

http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml

Tell them you don't agree with eugenics and the implied racism and classism that it represents, and that you vote. Better yet, give them alternative ideas to eugenics that you would like to see enacted to help individuals rise above poverty like social programs for at-risk parents, youth mentorship groups, and increased access to technology.

Jess Sanders (http://www.jess-sanders.blogspot.com/)

It isn't new, which makes it worse

Tacomamama — Sat, 27 Sep 2008 16:19:13 -0500

In the 90s the big scandal was mandating or paying low income women to get Norplant or Depo.

Aside from the racism, eugenics, and all around horrible public policy behind those cases, Norplant turned out to have so many side effects it was discontinued in 1999 after paying out some massive settlements. This solution seems to rear its head every so often and the collective cultural amnesia about it is distressing.

Tacoma Mama

Kitchen Table Issues

Attention Must Be Paid Before It Gets Traction

Gena Haskett — Sat, 27 Sep 2008 13:34:33 -0500

And most importantly, how much should we pay attention to this bullshit? Part of our challenge in living in the USA is to knock down stupid, vile or inhuman ideas.

This isn't new. The new wave of racists have learned to package their ideas in acceptable forms of identity focused code words and concepts. Something like:

Personal responsibility = if the actions of your government before and after a natural disaster impaired your ability to leave town and caused you to suffer it is your fault.

Now a sane person would say WTF, A natural disaster & the government had the resources it refused to employ & also physically prevented other people from assisting those in harms way and you blame the victims?

So if you package the idea that you can diminish the number of "poor people" by not allowing them to reproduce by demonstrating it as a long term cost saving measure. Then it no longer seems a racist or women hating idea but an economic one.

Just one hitch - we are creating more poor people by fiscal mismanagement. Let this idea gain traction and you might find whole communities targeted based on their collective income levels.

And Boomers and Elders, don't get too smug that this won't be reconfigured as a means to control health care cost in the near future. Just saying...

Gena - Out On The Stoop

Snip, Snip Baby!

Gena Haskett — Sat, 27 Sep 2008 13:01:34 -0500

Can you see it? The Wall Street forced march to the State Hospital where they would be treated like any other person without health insurance (the word despicable comes to mind).

Put them in those tacky hospital gowns and have them wait 4+ hours before a first year intern comes in and gives them the fix.

That I would watch on Fox News if I had cable and an air sickness bag. Make it a mandate of signing away billions of dollars and look how fast an alternative plan would be found.

Gena - Out On The Stoop

I Just Saw This Bozo On CNN

Megan Smith — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 14:00:56 -0500

Since LaBruzzo is so worried about government welfare being doled out, before we give all those Wall Street bankers their welfare check of 700 billion dollars, they should all have vasectomies.

I think that suggestion is just as reasonable.

Megan Smith
BlogHer Contributing Editor, TV/YouTube
Megan's Minute: Quirky Commentary Around The Clock

Hope and Despair exist side by side

Candelaria Silva — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 13:35:12 -0500

This is a powerful response to a powerful post. I had forgotten in the front part of my brain about the forced sterilization of Puerto Rican women that I'd read about some years back. Thanks for the reminder.

As for hysterectomies, I actually have more friends and family members who've had them then haven't had them. I've been the big hold out and it has caused some definite suffering even after trying an alternative method.

The #s of women I know who've had hysterectomies is frightening.

We are blessed that we can tell each other the truth via these vehicles even when the powers that be suppress the information.

blog.candelariasilva.com

Good and plenty!

USA wrote the book on eugenics, but YOU write the Book of Hope

Catch the Dream Express — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 13:17:51 -0500

Dear sisters,

While we are blessed to live in this country in many ways, there are some sad truths that have been kept away from the people for a long time. This is why many people in this country could not understand the rage that led to 911. After that terrible attack, people began to ask more questions.

But those of us who come from other countries originally, have known these truths for a long time. For example, the United States government conducted a campaign of massive sterilization of Puerto Rican Women in the 1950s. These women were not told what the doctors were really going to do to. They were not offered a choice. They were not even paid to do it.

Even before this, we may remember that the books and theories that Hitler and his followers used to justify eugenics were written in the United States!

This country, it is sad to say, has kept its children in the dark, like an alcoholic parent who is drinking and behaving immorally and abusively, but tries to keep it a secret from its children. Some children will SEE. Others will accept the cover up because it is too painful to see.

The cover up is a myth: The USA's democratic zeal. In reality, this country has rarely supported democratic governments in the world. In truth, it has supported dictators, like Pinochet. The murder of democratic president Salvador Allende, remember, also happened in an 11th of september!

I agree with most of what you are saying, but simply want to add that the myth of democracy is just that, a myth. It would be unfair to say that there is no real democracy in this country. What is more accurate is to see that, if we compare our country to third-world countries with dictators, while yes, we have more democratic rights, of course.

We have a degree of freedom of speech here that is not allowed in many of these countries. (Although this seems to be seriously threatened in the current climate.) It is also true that women in our country can vote and do not have to wear a veil, that we can work and we can walk freely on the streets.

But it is also true that we earned this with our blood, thanks to the Suffragets and other feminists who some young women now put down! Not one of our freedoms has been granted voluntarily by our government. Not one has come easily. Not unions. Not women's vote. Not the right to have an abortion. Not one.

If we, however, compare our country to other First World countries, such as the European countries, we will be brought to shame in many regards: from education and health to the quality of life and the quality of the news.

There is a deep incongruence splitting this country's heart. We see ourselves as champions of Democracy and Freedom, and believe that the USA offers everyone a chance to succeed and improve.

This, in justice, is partly true. There is in this country so much opportunity, so many niches you can explore, that it offers advantages that other countries do not. I am grateful for these opportunities in my life. In this I honore this country. But I believe this honor goes to its people, not necessarily to its government.

On the other hand, our country has built its wealth on the heads of other smaller countries that it has colonized and rip off. It is also true that the values of this country have been slowly corroded by a government-corporate leadership that places money as the supreme value.

The myth of the incapable, passive, co-dependent poor has been created to cover up for the injustice that this greedy leadership spreads.

The result is that, in a country that believes itself to be the most advance country in the world, we have one of the worse health systems among the First World countries. Our health system is in shambles, a mine for greedy pharmaceuticals and for a powerful money-mongering medical lobby. Attempts to create a fair health system that is free for everyone have crashed against this lobby.

We also have ghettos were our African-American and Latino youth is systematically destroyed via drugs (that were introduced by design to de-gut the gangs that were getting political) and via the building of Rap Sheets that send our brilliant young men and women into the jail system, seldom to recover. They are deprived of scholarships and educational opportunities and when they see this country's obsession with money and how money is the ONE thing that brings respect, well, what are they going to do? Put their brilliant minds into getting quick, big money selling drugs. But even the ones who are not doing this risk getting the Rap Sheet for just being around in a raid, or even being killed. Our young poor people are so angry that our neighborhoods are bubbling with toxic rage.

Public housing is terribly neglected. There is asbestos in those apartments, for example, and this is covered up. Now there is a plan to get the poorest out and turn public housing into coops. This plan was drafted back in the 60s, mind you. The Think Tanks in this country systematically planned the design of Manhattan as a rich, luxury, highly modernized architectural wonder, and they have been systematically implementing this plan.

And when the angry, desolated, neglected poor people seek help, they are then seen as scumbags. I have personally had to go to welfare twice in my life because of emergencies. In my third emergency I said: "I'd rather starve than go to this de-humanizing system" -and thank goodness that God helped me recover.

I feel your indignation and shock. But for me, it is more of a sadness that I have carried for a long time, for I have no delusions about this country. I do not see the USA as the saviour of democracy, which is the image that the media and the government have painted. I have seen our Shadow for many years.

I believe, however, that the PEOPLE of this country have a big heart, and that when they open their eyes to the real injustices perpetrated by this country on other countries and on their poorer citizens, there will be change.

And we should include our children, disable and elder in this boat, for this country seems to subscribe to the survival of the strongest and neglects both its future and its past. It is a shame how old people are living in this country, after working their entire lives to build it.

And then, let's not forget women! We are often the ones purchasing and working the most, but ironically also earning the least. Women have already been massively sterilized in this country, as another sister commented, via hysterectomies. 99% of the histerectomies performed in this country are unnecessary. I was repeatedly told by dozens of doctors and hospitals that the only way to deal with a fibroid I had was a hysteroctomy. And in one trip to South Africa, I got it routinely extirpated via a simple operation that our doctors don't even know about here. Who cares? They are women. Specially poor women. Let's sterilize them. Little research has been done to advance women's health in a male-dominated medical system.

Gee, this is a lot of grief to digest.

Knowing all of this, however, I still have faith and joy in my heart. How is this possible?

Because I hear sisters like you, truthsayers, and my heart soars. I know you will spread this truth in your families and communities. I know that women's power to generate change is awesome. We are doing it, sisters.

We are doing it through these blogs. We are doing it by manifesting our Personal Dream and not letting anyone stand on our way, including ourselves. We are doing it by seeing the truth, speaking the truth, waking up from the Sleeping Beauty trance and becoming the co-creators of the life we dream for ourselves and our descendants.

Blessings to you all,

Maria Mar

The Dream Alchemist

Helping women manifest their dreams

& helping women writers meet their readers.

Women of color and reproductive rights

Liz Henry — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 12:25:14 -0500

Another book suggestion for readers -

"Women of Color and the Reproductive Rights Movement" ( http://www.amazon.com/Women-Color-Reproductive-Rights-Movement/dp/081475... ) has a great overview of the 60s-80s struggles for reproductive rights, and specifically, black and latina interventions to try to redefine what "reproductive rights" mean.

-----------------
Liz Henry
lizzard@bookmaniac.net
Contributing Editor, World and Latin America

Thanks for the books

Candelaria Silva — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:22:29 -0500

I am forwarding your comments to several friends. This is an important topic and we should never forget how women and particularly poor women of color are viewed in the U.S. Woman as vessel!

blog.candelariasilva.com

Good and plenty!

Laina, thanks for continuing

Yvette Perry — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 08:08:26 -0500

Laina, thanks for continuing this topic. First, I do want to mention that Canada had its own compulsory sterilization programs. It was not the first such effort (the US was) or the most infamous (Nazi Germany) but it still happened in your general neck of the woods, too.

Second, a few other books to add to a reading list of this topic are "Medical Apartheid: The Dark History of Medical Experimentation on Black Americans from Colonial TImes to the Present" by Harriet Washington and "Better for All the World: The Secret History of Forced Sterilization and America's QUest for Racial Prity" by Harry Bruinius. "Mothers in Law: Feminist Theory and the Legal Regulation of Motherhood"(Eds. Martha Albertson Fineman and Isabel Karpin) contains several relevant articles, while "Barren in the Promise Land: Childless Americans and the Pursuit of Happiness" by Elaine Tyler May is instructive for approaching the subject from the other end--the efforts to encourage reproduciton of middle class married Whites.

I will not repeat here the points I made on the other thread since they are there for anyone to read, if interested. I'll just reinterate that for me the sad part about this is not the actions and words of "conservatives" or those on the "religious right," but the relative silence of progressives and pro-choice advocates.

FInally, I want to note to kazari and others that it really should not be so surprising that this kind of thing pops up every so often in the USA. This country was the first to institute such legal policies. And it is interesting that some of the exact same arguments were invoked in times past. One can almost swap out today's newspaper quotes for those of the 1920s. For example, Justice Holmes said, in his famous opinion in Buck v Bell:

We have seen more than once that the public welfare may call upon
the best citizens for their lives. It would be strange if it could not
call upon those who already sap the strength of the State for these
lesser sacrifices, often not felt to be such by those concerned, in
order to prevent our being swamped with incompetence. It is better for
all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring
for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can
prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The
principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover
cutting the Fallopian tubes. Three generations of imbeciles are enough.

Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast

Here's A Way To Help Revive America's Economy: Should Poor Women be 'Offered' Sterilization?

lainad — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 20:27:26 -0500

Before writing this, I first checked Blogher to make sure that none of my fellow CE happened upon this story and to my surprise I found a post that Nordette posted on a similar issue in Texas. Unfortunately, we might be seeing a trend of the re-emergence of government-sponsored sterilization for poor women and women of color. Now who said that Eugenics was a dirty word??

Recently, Louisiana Representative John LaBruzzo(Rep) announced that he is researching a plan to offer poor women $1,000.00 to have their Fallopian tubes tied. His argument is that it would reduce generational welfare dependency:

LaBruzzo said he worries that people receiving government aid such as food stamps and publicly subsidized housing are reproducing at a faster rate than more affluent, better-educated people who presumably pay more tax revenue to the government. He said he is gathering statistics now.

"What I'm really studying is any and all possibilities that we can reduce the number of people that are going from generational welfare to generational welfare, " he said.

He said his program would be voluntary. It could involve tubal ligation, encouraging other forms of birth control or, to avoid charges of gender discrimination, vasectomies for men.

However, there are more holes in his argument that a chunk of Swiss cheese. Okay, maybe not holes, but enough additions to the main proposal that belie his original argument that this is about taxes, not a passive form of cultural genocide.

It also could include tax incentives for college-educated, higher-income people to have more children, he said.

One can't help but look at the racial demographics at this suggestion. So it is okay for people who are more affluent to overpopulate the earth? Does it mean that there is a more than likely chance that their offspring will not become single parents dependent on welfare? Not particularly. Renee from Womanist Musings says that one of the major problems is what main beliefs that America is built on: That one's place in life is reflective of how hard they work to achieve it - if you don't work hard enough and follow society's expectations, you get what you get:

What Labruzzo and men of his ilk want people to believe is the lie that is preached in every single elementary school across the country; meritocracy. The streets are paved with gold, and if you work hard enough each person has an equal opportunity to succeed. If people are poor it is because they choose it and this is a choice that the government can no longer continue to support.

She also points out Labruzzo's constituency. Could this public announcement simply be a ploy to gain the respect of potential voters?

Labruzzo is living up to the legacy of his seat well. His riding is the same district that used to be represented by David Duke. The pupil has outstripped the sansei. We are to believe that there is no racial overtones to this suggested policy, when the government has a history of forced sterilizations of WOC? I wonder how much he sells swampland in Louisiana for? Racism is still a very big part in American society and therefore it would hubris to assume that it would not play a role in which bodies got sterilized.

According to the New Orleans Citybusiness, Labruzzo has made his reasoning quite clear:

LaBruzzo said he is only considering the proposal for now while he conducts research. But backlash from various groups was to be expected, he said.

“The black community will say this is some sort of race-based genocide. And there will be tremendous push back from the ACLU. They'll try to say these people are incapable of making such a decision when their life is in turmoil. That if you're dangling money in front of them, of course they'll make a decision that will affect them negatively.

"My argument would be if they’re incapable of making a decision whether to cease reproduction are they capable of raising multiple children to be good citizens? And if they're incapable, maybe Social Services should take their children."

Okay then! Some have tried to tie this into the recent problems with the economy, wondering if this proposal has anything to do with it. After all, the news broke as part of LaBruzzo's concern about the economic crises and how it would affect the state of Louisiana. F#$k Hurricane Katrina and the devastation that caused hundreds of thousands of people to flee the state - what about the amount of people reliant on the Government? Let's blame them!

"If someone doesn't have a car and needs to utilize city-assisted evacuation, that makes them a social burden? The fact that he feels so comfortable and entitled to make these statements is a reflection of our society, that we’re OK with the most vulnerable of our community being blamed for the social, economic and political crises that we’re experiencing,” (says)Sheila Griffin,(interim director of the New Orleans Women's Health Clinic) said. “If we really want to improve the lives of people in our communities we would think about raising the minimum wage, holistic health care, improving labor laws, employment opportunities for all people and the educational system.

"Instead he wants to use a form of medical experimentation and forced sterilization on poor women of color, using their economic status as a way to make them more vulnerable to the offer.”

According to Goddess Rising, the amount of abortions among Black and Latina women has actually risen. She also notes a really good book if you want to learn more about why these types of (stupid, racist, classist, Hitler-ish) public pronouncements have lead bloggers to make a clear distinction between LaBruzzo's classist remarks and systemic racism, read Killing The Black Body by Dorthy Roberts.

In my (albeit irrelevant) opinion as a Canuck, what bothers me is not what he said, but what brought it to public light. As mentioned above, are these pronouncements seen as more legitimate today, as America's economy is swirling down the drain? Are people, most often Republicans looking to avoid blaming the past eight years and trying to re-focus the blame on the downtrodden? And most importantly, how much should we pay attention to this bullshit?

However the scary part of it folks, is that just like the news item that Nordette blogged about, there are enough people in this world that actually agree with the likes of that judge in Texas and Labruzzo, whom is my age and quite frankly, Republican or not, should know better. But if you want to pander to your constituents you will say whatever you need to, to quench your thirst of power.