BlogHer - BlogHer's live-blog of tonight's VP Debate: Gov. Sarah Palin, Sen. Joe Biden and Moderator Gwen Ifill - Comments

Double post

topsyturvy86 — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 14:36:39 -0500

Double post ... sorry

Being Intelligent Does Not Equal Being Elite!

Gena Haskett — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 21:18:30 -0500

We have had eight years of stupidity in the White House. Yeah, I said it! I'm thinking you might disagree. Fine. That is a feature of this great land of ours that we disagree.

No matter who gets elected president that person is going to face incredible challenges. There will be no honeymoon period. This person will face international and national issues and will have to speak to the nation and the world.

We are in deep debt. We have soldiers fighting in multiple situations We have rush to commit a fiscal act that liberals, conservatives and everybody in between agree should not have happened and most of us do not know or understand the full ramifications of this act.

Now if a candidate for VP wants to talk directly to the American people I see nothing that is standing in his or her way.

If her respective staff has not heard of web video and alternative forms of presenting a message directly to Americans that is not my problem.

M$M cannot be blamed for the perception that she is being prohibited from speaking directly to the American people. Palin understood that the nature of the debate was to respond to question and provide an answer somewhere in the neighborhood of the question.

She openly refuse to do that. I don't have a six pack either anatomically on in the refrigerator. Palin needed to talk to all Americans not just the ones she sat in the bleachers with on Saturday afternoon.

If we hate educated people so much why do we ask our children to become educated? Why do we want the best and the brightest to come work for our companies? Do you really want a dumbass doctor when you go to surgery? You want a correspondence school lawyer who cheated on an open book exam? Being smart is not evil and we need smart people in the White House.

Gena - Out On The Stoop

Yep.

Nordette — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 20:02:28 -0500

I would say more, but I'm tired of talking about Palin too. She bores me and if she ever comes to real power in this country, God help us all.

Nordette is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link.

Thomas is a unique character

Kim Pearson — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 19:13:09 -0500

The range of reactions that he incited among black intellectuals was fascinating. There was a great special issue of Black Scholar that captured a lot of the debate. Your reaction reminds me of the late Judge Leon Higginbotham's stunning "An Open Letter to Justice Clarence Thomas from a Federal Judicial Colleague." (.pdf) A stinging piece of argument if there ever was one. I find this part of his letter particularly relevant at the moment:

Black Ivy League alumni in particular should never be too impressed by the educational edigree of Supreme Court Justices. The most wretched decision ever rendered against black people in the past century was Plessy v. Ferguson.11 It was written in 1896 by Justice Henry
Billings Brown, who had attended both Yale and Harvard Law Schools. The opinion was joined by Justice George Shiras, a graduate of Yale Law School, as well as by Chief Justice Melville Fuller and Justice Horace Gray, both alumni of Harvard Law School.If those four Ivy League alumni on the Supreme Court in 1896 had been as faithful in their
interpretation of the Constitution as Justice John Harlan, a graduate of Transylvania, a small law school in Kentucky, then the venal precedent of Plessy v. Ferguson, which established the federal "separate but equal" doctrine and legitimized the worst forms of race discrimination, would not have been the law of our nation for sixty years. The separate but equal doctrine, also known as Jim Crow, created the foundations of separate and unequal allocation of resources, and oppression of the human rights of Blacks.
During your confirmation hearing I heard you refer frequently to your grandparents and your experiences in Georgia. Perhaps now is the time to recognize that if the four Ivy League alumni--
all northerners--of the Plessy majority had been as sensitive to the plight of black people as was ustice John Harlan, a former slave holder from Kentucky,12 the American statutes that sanctioned racism might not have been on the books--and many of the racial injustices that your grandfather, Myers Anderson, and my grandfather, Moses Higginbotham, endured would never have occurred.
The tragedy with Plessy v. Ferguson, is not that the Justices had the "wrong" education, or that they attended the "wrong" law schools. The tragedy is that the Justices had the wrong values,
and that these values poisoned this society for decades. Even worse, millions of Blacks today still suffer from the tragic sequelae of Plessy--a case which Chief Justice Rehnquist.13 Justice
Kennedy,14 and most scholars now say was wrongly decided.15

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor|Professor Kim|

Wow Prof Kim

Southerngirl — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 15:37:29 -0500

I think I am getting a girl crush on you and Maria. It is a blessing to be able to dialog with such intelligent and informed women. When Thomas was announced I was the only person in my circle that had ever heard of him. One guy I worked with told me that only I would know this kind of stuff. I had to read some of his peices for my debate on affirmative action in college. He gave me such a headache and heartache. I read whatever I could find on him after that because he fasinated me in a morbid sort of way. Going to an HBCU you get that we are all so very differnt but he was too different for me. Then I also grew up in the town where the first of the Brown cases was brought. My family still attends the church those meetings were held in. Justice Marshall has a place in my history and my heart. Without him and others my education would have been sorely lacking. Seeing him replaced by Thomas was a bit much for me.

Michelle

I blog at http://www.mommycan.blogspot.com/

I covered the Clarence Thomas hearings

Kim Pearson — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 15:11:09 -0500

It was the American Bar Association that initially raised questions about Justice Thomas' qualifications. Two of the 15 reviewers said that he was not qualified --something that was unprecedented up to that point, and since. Some committee members thought Thomas' answers to questions about natural law and separation of powers displayed questionable logic. Even before the Anita Hill episode, the vote on the Judiciary Committee was divided. Obviously, the Senate decided he was qualified.

As for seeing Palin's nomination as a sign of progress for women, clearly women are divided on that, as are men. Personally, I am still not sure why McCain didn't go for someone like Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison.She is 65, but that is the same age as Biden, and only five years older than Hillary Clinton. No one would have questioned her qualifications or conservative cred. And Katie Couric would have had a harder time.

I'm not sure what Michelle Obama has to do with this conversation, but by your logic, I suppose that you want Todd Palin to explain his relationship to the Alaska Independent Party over and over too.

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor|Professor Kim|

"Real," apparently, is in the eye of the beholder.

Lisse — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:32:45 -0500

I thought Palin held her own. The bar was set so low, that if she got her facts straight, she'd come out the winner. That merely requires memorization, not experience, or thoughtfulness, or analytical skills.

I am a Soccer Mom, literally and figuratively. She was certainly not speaking for, or even to, me. Most of the people I know are not that vapid and chatty, and if they are, I avoid them. What some people are calling "real" and "genuine" is striking me as contrived and shallow.

While it's common for politicians to avoid or skirt around some questions in debate, for her to announce that she was going to do so seemed arrogant and dismissive, as was her travel comment with Couric. She's been on the ticket for five weeks or so, she's had plenty of time to talk to the American people, but her campaign has been keeping her away from the microphones.

Personally, I want the candidates and leaders to be smarter than me, Palin isn't. Condoleeza Rice would have made a fine VP candidate. And she's at least been to Russia.

I'm getting really tired of this elite vs. normal or real Americans. It strikes me as a cover for intellectual laziness and a disinterest in bettering oneself, and it speaks poorly for our future. No, not everybody gets to Harvard, not everyone even gets to college, but that doesn't mean they are not smart.

Sadly, one is left with the impression that "real Americans" don't value learning, have no curiousity about the world beyond their own sphere, and don't wish their worldview to be challenged by people with different experiences.

Millions of real Chinese, Indians, and Russians do value learning and do wish to better themselves. They outpace us in academic acheivement, are more informed about the world than most Americans, and they'd like, or in some cases already have, our jobs.

Resentment of the "elites" is misplaced. Turn off FOX News and do your homework. Maybe Palin will grant you extra credit.

-Lisse

@ Home in the World

Sorry to dissapoint

Southerngirl — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:15:32 -0500

Sorry to dissapoint you but Thomas DOES have a degree from Yale. I can tell you that I do not share Clarence Thomas nor Sarah Palin's veiws but do I think they are qualified? Thomas...yes. I do not in any way shape or form share his circular logic that your bias of me has to do with affirmitive action and not the fact that you may just simply be a racist. Sarah Palin as Gov of Alaska has done a good job apperantly. As mayor not so much. But as VP not by a long shot. If this was Hutchingson, Rice or any of the other VERY qualified women whose veiws I do not agree with I would be OK. The thing is she is just not qulified not because she does not have a law degree but becuse she does not have a knowledge base from which to draw. As a woman it saddens me. I have VERY high standards for my daughter. When she reads sbout this in American history it will not be kind. We have a non-intellectual in the White House now, how is that working for you? Look I get that Obama is very smart but my goodness that should be what we want in our leaders. Smarts not to have a beer with them.

Michelle Obama was born in America just like you. You, nor anyone else gets to decide who is a REAL american. This is our country not my country but OUR country. No she should not have to explain it and she is being waaaaaaay nicer than me about it. I would flat out say to hell with all of you, and never answer that question again. Because I suspect that those like you have already decided she is not worthy to be American. After all the chick worth 100mill can definitly feel your pain.

Michelle

I blog at http://www.mommycan.blogspot.com/

clarence thomas and sarah palin

davet. — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 11:10:43 -0500

it is sooooooooooo easy to attack folks like clarence thomas and
sarah palin. both are very qualified individuals, but because you don't
share their views on many issues, they are somehow mindless or not
qualified.

if someone doesn't have 3 degrees from harvard,
yale and oxford, they are somehow dumb and not qualified to run the
country. i guess we all should have aced our SAT's and left school with
perfect 4.0 GPA's to make anything out of our lives.

as a
pro-choice republican, i obviously disagree with my party on abortion.
i do, however, find more than enough in common with mc cain and palin
to vote for them.

whether you agree with her on the issues or
not, the fact that a woman has made it this far should make most women
happy. it is progress any way you cut it. if mc cain had picked a white
guy who had been in the beltway for 20 or 30 years, those on the left
would have screamed that the GOP knows nothing else.

and
michelle obama should explain time after time why she said that for the
first time in her adult life she was proud to be an american. i'm not
always happy with what my country does, but it didn't take me getting
into my 40s to finally be proud to be an american.

palin did hit the issues

davet. — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 10:58:33 -0500

we must have watched two different debates....

i heard palin say what a
mc cain/palin ticket would do in regards to iraq, taxes, health care,
energy, dealing with dictators, israel, etc. you may not have liked the
way she framed it, but she hit those areas.

the problem with the
"crowds" in san francisco and the like is that many of them already
made up their minds before palin even uttered a word.

not all, but many
on the left won't give you the time of day unless you had a 4.0 GPA,
have a master's, doctorate, went to harvard, spent time at oxford, etc.

while i certainly don't think everyone in the united states is "joe
six-pack" by any means, there are a lot more of us "everyday" people
who do not want to be lectured by an elitist president who would rather
run the u.s. like europe.

You are soo right

Southerngirl — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 10:50:07 -0500

I remember having to read Clarence Thomas' position papers for debate class in college. I thought is this man really Black? This has got to be a joke. Then when he was annouced as a replacement for Marshall I actually cried. I knew he is the ultimate angry Balck man. Many people have it in their minds that is the kids with his pants hanging and hip hop blaring from his tricked out ride. This kid has no power but Clarence Thomas is the one we should all be afraid of. The thing with freedom is that each has his right to exsit and prosper no matter what the rest of us think.

Dang isn't the word I'm thinking but I feel you.

Michelle

I blog at http://www.mommycan.blogspot.com/

I find the "normal" comments disturbing

madeintaiwan — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 09:40:28 -0500

What does that mean -she appeals to the normal person?? You're only normal if you're a white soccer mom? I'm from Asian descent and I'm not a soccer mom yet so I'm not normal? One time I went to a wine tasting (!), and, hey, I am also looking hard for a job to support my family. What's with the boxes?

The Risk We Took in Fighting For Our Rights and Freedom

weemsrj — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 09:29:02 -0500

...is that we were apt to get a Clarence Thomas on the Supreme Court and a Sarah Palin on a Vice Presidential ticket.

It makes you wonder as a black woman whether it was worth it all.

Of course, it was. But it makes you shake your head and say, Dang, Dang, Dang.

Read Renita's Blog Since She Spends Way More Time on It Than She Should: http://www.somethingwithin.com/blog.

I missed it!!!!!

Suzanne Reisman — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 08:38:55 -0500

So, I went to visit my friend in Florida yesterday. My itinerary put me at a 6:30 arrival - plenty of time to grab a bite then watch the debate with my pal. It was extremely frustrating, then, when I missed my connecting flight by 10 stinking minutes, then the next flight, which was supposed to arrive in FL at 9:00, was delayed by 90 hours. Soooooooo mad. This better be somewhere online.

Suzanne Reisman, Contributing Editor - Feminism & Gender
Campaign for Unshaved Snatch (CUSS) & Othetr Rants

Not Angry

Southerngirl — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 07:59:42 -0500

I don't think I am angry anymore. I admit when all of the stories about her first broke I was damn angry. Now mostly my head and heart just hurts. I was one of those people during the primaries that even though I did not like Hillary and wasn't supporting her I could not bring myself to do the Obama yard sign or bumper sticker. I would have been more than Ok with Hillary being the nominee. She is an intelligent articulate woman. I did get a bit polarized after the primaries were over because of her behavior. She was a girl and I was happy and proud of that. I am sad becuse the bar seems to be set soo low for the top jobs in our country that we would elect her becuse she is just like us. Here is the thing she would be great in the cabinet or even as a Senator but a VP no way. She not only does not have the knowledge base to draw from she doesn't even seem to want to get it. Honestly I think I have read more than she has. I know of several supreme court cases even if not by name but by what they dealt with. This woman has a journalism degree and could not even name a magazine or newspaper she reads. As a woman she makes my head hurt that we want a level playing field but then we pick someone who should not even be on the field to represent us?

Then there is the thing of race. I used to be of the mindset that your racism or bais is not my problem, its yours. This election is proof to me that others biases can effect me and big time. If these 2 are elected .... I can't even finish that. I will just say that I will be praying for McCain's health and strenght daily. If Barack's daughter were pregnat it would still find a way to loop enlessly through the news. Michelle Obama has given hundreds of speeches and one phrase has been looped over and over thoughout the news. She can't be interveiwed without still having to explain that comment. They somehow have to prove their patrotism. This current administration is proof positive that we do not need someone like us in office. But here we go with this mess again. If Condi Rice had come out on that stage and acted like Palin last night it would be lights out!

Michelle

I blog at http://www.mommycan.blogspot.com/

BlogHer's live-blog of tonight's VP Debate: Gov. Sarah Palin, Sen. Joe Biden and Moderator Gwen Ifill

Lisa Stone — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 08:18:13 -0500

UPDATE: See the bottom of this post for a live-blog of the debate, starting soon...

Here we go! In song and in art, the BlogHer-sphere is roiling over tonight's televised debate by the candidates for vice president, Democratic Senator Joe Biden and Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin.

Join us here at 9 p.m. Eastern on BlogHer.com as we live-blog the debate, moderated by PBS' Gwen Ifill. And there's plenty to discuss in advance: After a week of watching CBS' Katie Couric interview Gov. Palin, many bloggers are focused on Sen. John McCain's running mate -- as well as her tactics, techniques and who will win. I'm not finding too much about Sen. Biden.

I opened up the Christian Science Monitor site yesterday to find a piece by Andrew Halcro, who ran for governor of Alaska (as an independent) and lost to Palin. Halcro wrote, "When he faces off against Sarah Palin Thursday night, Joe Biden will have his hands full...Her ability to fill the debate halls with her presence and her gift of the glittering generality made it possible for her to rely on populism instead of policy."

I found Halcro's piece and many more citations of the lack of specifics in Gov. Palin's responses to reporters in a wrap-up by Julie Pippert on Momocrats.com. "Palin seems to have a great difficulty specifically and knowledgeably answering foreign policy questions, and also misunderstands the essential boundaries for security," Pippert blogs. "Then she cries foul when she goofs and quickly blames journalists or others around her, for her gaffe."

The American Princess disagrees, saying that the biggest challenge for the Democrats is the news that Moderator Gwen Ifill has written a book, "The Breakthrough: Politics and Race in the Age of Obama." The result, AP blogs, given that the McCain camp is expressing surprise at this news, is that:

"Gwen is now toast. She has no choice but to be as careful as possible about how she treats Biden and Palin or risk having the entire debate discredited as a partisan show. No matter what she does, even one slip will result in her being painted with a broad brush as nothing more than an Obama sympathizer who tried to tee one up for the campaign. She’s being watched and she will be excoriated. I’m sure she’s not unfamiliar with the concept. If she doesn’t, then the very first thing out of the mouth of the McCain campaign tomorrow is: the debate was nothing more than a farce and Gwen Ifill is nothing more than a partisan hack. Lets try this thing again."

IMHO? Having watched Gwen Ifill moderate debates for years, I have seen no indication whatsoever that she will do anything but an impartial, professional job -- she's been much better on holding candidates to their allotted time than most moderators. My understanding is that her book is about black politicians who are using techniques like the Obama campaign -- not a book advocating Obama as president. That said, I haven't read it. But I think she's a journalist of the highest caliber, and that's why she's on Jim Lehrer's NewsHour.

Which leads me to terrific questions, both for the candidates AND for you, the viewers. Nanette Fondas hits policy hard with "Mothers’ Five Questions for Palin/Biden Debate. And Politics4Moms wants to know what you think -- and I do too -- about these questions, which I have paraphrased:

* Is it a conflict of interest for Gwen Ifill to moderate tonight's vice presidential debate?
* What matters more to the McCain/Palin ticket: Palin's showing tonight or her interviews with Journalists Couric and Charles Gibson (ABC)? Editor's note: While Politics4Moms think Palin did not perform well in the interviews, other bloggers, such as RightWingSparkle, think Palin did a terrific job with Couric. More here.
* How will Biden do? Does he need to be concerned about insulting Palin and how would that affect your opinion of him and the Obama/Biden ticket?
* Will the outcome of this debate have any real bearing on the election?

So... what do you think?

=======LIVE BLOG=======

Ifill: Welcome to the first and the only vice-presidential debate...Tonight's debate will be divided into domestic and foreign policy issues...(She explains the coin-toss and rules, no applause or outbursts)

APPLAUSE (Biden: Blue tie, lapel pin, Palin in black suit.)

Ifill: The first question will ggo to Biden. The house of Representatives didn't pass it. Was this the worst of the Washington or the best of Washington?

Biden: ...It's evidence that the economic policies of the past eight years are the worst we've ever had....excessve drregulation, seeing Wall STreet run wild, this is the evidence. The Barack Obama laid out four criteria for a rescue plan
- Oversight of Sec of Treasury
- Focus on homeowners, Main Street
- Have to treat the taxpayers like investors
- Make sure CEOs don't get rich
Here's the fundamental difference (between the tickets).

Palin: Has this been a good time or a bad time, go to a kid's soccer game and ask them, how are they feeling about the economy, arand I betcha you're going to hear some fear. Fear about are we going to be able to send kids to college, Fear about their investments. Our economy is hurting and our federal government has not rovided the sound oversight that we need to that end. John McCain sounded the warning bell two years about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mc. Others (gestures to Biden) didn't. He

Biden: Two weeks ago John McCain said the economy was strong. Later he said there was a crisis. That doesn't make John McCain a bad guy. But (that's not the case)...

Palin: John McCain was talking about the American workforce. That's a positive that's encouragement and (winks at the camera!), that's a fundamental.. Barack Obama of course has voted primarily along party lines. That's why I think we need to send the Maverick from the Senate to the White House and I'm happy to join them there.

Ifill: Gov., Sen. Neither of you really answered that question I raised, so we'll come back to that.

LAUGHTER.

Ifill: Who's at fault with the sub-prime mortgage debacle?

======(Sorry fell behind on this one, here's a summary)

Palin: It's time to say never again. It's time for every soccer mom and Joe Six Pack to say never again and get back to how we were taught

Biden: John McCain

Darn right we need tax relief for the taxpayers. Barack had 94 times to side on the people's side and 94 times he voted to raise taxes. We do need the private sector to be able to save more of what we earn and produce. Barack Obama even supported raising taxes for families that earn 42,000 taxes a year.

Biden: That charge is not true. John McCain voted exactly the same way. It was a ...John McCain voted 477 times to raise taxes. The governor did not answer the question of deregulation.

Palin: I may not answer the questions the way that you or the moderator want to hear but I'm going to speak directly to the American people want to hear. As to John McCain's pushing for harder and tougher regulation, I want to talk about what I did to (lost the rest)

Ifill: Gov. are you interested in defending

Palin: He's recommending a $5,000 tax credit for families. That's tax neutral and it doesn't cost anything. Unlike Barack's plan, which involves the government taking over health care, which I don't think we want the Feds running anything.

Biden: 95% of the small businesses in America, their owners make less than $250,000 a year, they would not be charged one penny more in taxes. John McCain charges every one of you through your employer to give you the $5,000 plan, which his Web site points out will go straight to your insurance company. You're going to have to replace a $12k plan with the $5k you got and 20 MM are going to be dropped. I call that the ultimate bridge to nowhere.

And for those of us who prefer an old-fashioned IRC chat, Obama supporter Dave Winer has one up. If anyone knows of a McCain-backed IRC chat, I welcome the link.

Biden: We are going to have to slow dow the double foreign assistance. We are not going to support the $300 BB tax cut they have for the very wealthy, and the tax cut for Exxon Mobil. We cannot slow up on education, that's the engine that's going to give us the growth and competitiveness we need. We're not going to slow up on health care. We're going to eliminate the wasteful spending the...The $100 BB tax dodge that allows people to take their post office box offshore. I call that unpatriotic.

Palin: The one thing I can assure you abou John McCain is that he doesn't say one thing to one group and one thing to another group. I had to take on those oil companies and said no, any of the greed there that has been Conoco Excon Mobil and Phillips. I had to break up a monopoly up there and say we have to make sure that we have to get value going to the people. It was Barack Obama who voted for the energy plan that I had to turn around as a governor

Ifill: So there's nothing you would take off the table, Governor?

Palin: No. How long have I been at this five weeks? ...There's nothing that John McCain has promised that he would take away, and nothing that I would either.

Ifill: Let's talk about climate change. What is true and what is false about he causes of climate change?

Palin: As the nation's only Arctic state, Alaska feels the change. I am not one to attribute every activity of man to the changes in the climate, there are some cyclical changes. There are changes in our climate. We've got to work with other countries. We've got to become energy independent for that reason also. Conserving our petroleum products and clean up this planet and deal with climate change.

Biden: I think it is man-made. If you don't understand what the cause is, it's virtually impossible to come up with a solution....John McCain has voted 20x in the last decade and a half to ... Barack Obama believes in investing in the solution. We should export the technology by investing in clean solutions. John McCain has voted 20x against clean solution.

Ifill: Clear something up for me:

Barack Obama and Sen. Biden, you've said no to every attempt. You've even called the shelf as "raping"

Ifill: Do you support capping carbon emissions?

Palin: I do, I do.

Biden: My record is clean, (Rope line comment is taken out of context). McCain

IFill: Do you support granting same sex benefits to couples?

Biden: Absolutely. No difference between same sex couples and heterosexual couples. It's what the Constitution calls for, as relates to their property rights, visitation...

Palin: Not if goes closer and closer to redefining marriage as differnt from one-man to one-woman. Choosing their partners, I am tolerant and I have a very diverse family and group of friends, and even in that circle you would see some very close friends. No one would ever do something to oppose visitation in a hospital. I don't support defining marriage as anything other than between one-man and one-woman.

Biden: No. We do not support redefining marriage. She supports no

Ifill. Wonderful, you agree. Let's move on to foreign policy. Governor you'd like to see a real clear plan for an exit. What does that mean?

Palin: I know that the other ticket opposed this surge and even opposed funding for our troops in Afghanistan. (Says Obama voted against those troops.) We cannot afford to lose against Al Qaeda. It would be a travesty if we quit in Iraq now.

Biden. Ma'am, with all due respect I didn't see a plan. Shift strategies, move . John McCain voted against funding the troops because the amendment had a timeline in it. And John said I'm not going to fund the troops if there's a timeline. We've got to shift funding to the Iraqis. We will end this war but for John McCain there is no end in sight. Fundamental difference.

Palin: Your plan is a white flag of surrender in Iraq. That is not what our troops need right now. We'll know when we're done in Iraq when the Iraqis can govern their people and our generals will tell us when that time comes. Barack Obama though, any one who can cut off the troops, is something different.

Joe Biden: John McCain voted against the troops. John McCain voted ... against the funding because he said the amendment had a timeline in it and he didn't liek that. John McCain and Dick Cheney said we would be greeted as liberators. John McCain said there would be enough oil. . John McCain has been dead wrong on the fundamentals related to the war.

Ifill: A nuclear Iran or an unstable Pakistan, which is more dangerous and be specific why?

Biden: They are both dangerous, they would both be game-changers. John continues to tell us that the central front is the war in Iraq. If a threat comes, it'll come from the hills. Right now that is in Pakistan. We need to support them...we need to compete for those hearts and minds. And by the way, that's where Osama Bin Ladin is and we will find him.

Palin: both are extremely dangerous. ...Iran cannot be allowed to have nuclear weapons...referred to Israel as a stinking corpse. Achmadinejad, the Castro brothers, Kim Jung Il are leaders a statement like that is downright dangerous.

Ifill: All secretaries of state have offered some level of engagement with

Palin: No, Dr. Henry Kissinger and I had a good conversation about this and he should. Those who try to limit our freedoms, Diplomacy is very important. Diplomacy is hard work by serious people.

Biden: That is just not true about Barack Obama. He did not say that he would sit down with Achmadinejad. Five secretaries of state have said we should sit down. Our friends and allies have said sit down and talk. Look what President Bush did. He finally sent a high-ranking diplomat to Europe to meet with high-randing diplomats.

John McCain said a few weeks ago that he wouldn't even sit down with the government of spain. A Nato ally. I find that incredible.

Ifill: What have they done wrong with Arab-Israeli conflict?

Palin: A two-state solution is the solution. SEc. Rice tried to forge that peace. Israel is our strongest and best ally in the peace. We've got to assure them that we will never allow a second Holocaust. They succeeded with Jordan, they succeeded with Egypt. In a McCain Palin administration.

Biden: No one has been a better friend to Israel than Joe Biden. This administration's policy has been an abject failure. The president insisted on elections in the West bank. Big mistake. he legitimized them. Now Hezbollah is a legitimate part of the government immediately north of Israel. Speaking of freedom on the march, the only thing on the march is Iran. We will change this policy with . You must back Israel and stand with them not insist on these failed policies.

Palin: No I do not believe this policy has been an abject f Political change is coming.

Biden: The issue is, how different is John McCain's policy going to be different from George Bush's? Israel? Iran? Afghanistan? Pakistan? It may be, but thus far it is George Bush's? We are going to

Palin: The surge principles that have worked in Iraq would work in Afghanistan.

Biden: With Afghanistan facts matter. Our commanding general said today the surge principle won't work in Afghanistan. Not Joe Biden. Our commanding general said that. We spend more money in three weeks on Iraq than we have in seven years in Afghanistan. With regard to arms control and weapons, John McCain voted against the nuclear test ban treaty.

Palin: Oh Man, it's so obvious that I'm a Washington outsider. You're one of the one's who said if you voted for it tell us why you voted for it. America is so hungry for those plain answers. You had supported John McCain's military strategy pretty closely.

Biden: The line that should e drawn is
a. Do we have the capacity to do anything about it?
b. When a country works against us
I never supported John McCain's strategy.

Palin: I beg to differ with you again. John McCain, who knows how to win a war, he's been there. He'll know how to win a war.

Ifill: The most common thing said about a VP is that they are a heartbeat away from the presidency. How would a Biden administration differ from an Obama administration? How would a Palin administration differ from a McCain administration?

Biden: God forbid...I would carry out the Obamaa administration policies for the working class, health care, get and capture/kill Bin Laden, engage our allies in making sure we were working on the same page and pre-empt the Bush Doctrine of pre-emption. Ladies and gentlemen, this is the most important election we have had. I agree with every major initiative he has proposed.

Palin: God forbid. What do you expect a team of Mavericks? Of course we're not going to agree on everything. (Winks again) I would continue to put govenment on the right road... I think we need a little reality from Wasilla Main Street so that people can understand how the average everyday working class family is feeling about government.

Biden: All you have to do is go down the street with me and ask anyone if they're better off... the people in my neighborhood get it. They know that they have been getting the short-end of the stick. The middle class has gotten the short end. The wealthy have gotten richer.

Plain: So Joe there you go again, pointing backwards. (Describes support for education as a national imperative.) Vice President Cheney has been the most dangerous vice president in the history of the United States. The only authority the Vice President has is to cast a tie-breaking voice.

IFill: Gov. Palin, it's said that you lack experience. Sen. Biden, it's said that you lack discipline. What are your responses to this?

Palin: My experience as a mayor and oil and gas regulator and an executive of a huge energy producing state. Even more important is that world view that says that we are a national of exceptionalism, that we are that shining city on a hill like Ronald Reagan said. It's a good team, it's a good ticket.

Biden: You're very kind, suggesting my only Achilles heel is discipline. I'll put my experience and Barack Obama's against John McCain's and anyone else's. The notion that somehow because I am a man, I don't understand taking care of children, I don't understand not knowing whether your child (chokes) is going to make it. They're looking for help. They're not looking for more of the same.

Palin: They're not looking for more of the same. That's why a maverick like John McCain is what this nation needs. Look at all his supporters -- we have got to win the war, we have got to get our economy back on track...change is coming and John McCain (is going to bring it).

Biden: He has been no maverick on the things that matter to people. He has not been a maverick in providing health care for people. He voted against the existing health care plan. He is not been a mvaerick on the war. He has not been a mverick that genuinely help people who sit around the kitchen table. So maverick he is not on the important issues that affect people.

Ifill: Can you think of a single policy issue in which you were force to change a long-held view?

Biden: Took me about five years but I learned that a judge's ideology made all the difference. That's why I led the fight against Robert Bork.

Palin: There were times I wanted to zero-base budget and cut taxes even more, but I couldn't because I didn't have the support. No, there hasn't been something that I've had to change.

Ifill: How do you change the tone, as VP, as #2?

Biden: I believe, John McCain, were he here, he would acknowledge what I'm about to say. I've worked across the aisle. Mike Mansfield said to me, don't question their motive. I've questioned their judgement. That's why I've been able to work in the United State Senate. Not questioning other peoples' motives.

Palin: You do what I did, appointing people of all parties.

Ifill: Closing statements

Palin: I like being able to answer thse tough questions without the filer of the mainstream media. I want to assure you that John McCain and I are going to fight for America. I've been there. I know what the hurts are and the joys are. I've always been proud to be an American too. We have to fight for our freedoms ... or we're going to spend all our time telling our children who is . There is only one man in this race who has ever fought for you and that man is John McCain.

Biden: Look folks, this is the most important election in your life. There's a need for fundamental change, on foreign policy and the economy. ...we measure progress in American based on whether someone can pay their mortgage or send their kid to college. ...In the neighborhood I grew up in, it was all about diginity and respect. That's why Barack Obama and I are running. It's time for American to get up together. You're ready, I'm ready. May God bless all of you and sefishly for all of us, may God protect our troops.

Ifill: Thank you Gov. Palin. Thank you Sen. Biden. And goodnight.