BlogHer - What does it mean, to "sell out?" - Comments

Alex, that is a great comment

Elisa Camahort — Fri, 04 Aug 2006 14:05:00 -0500

And, further, I think men can be not only pro-feminist, but actually feminists themselves.

I have had a post brewing in me for ages about money. I'm heading off in a few minutes to a quarterly executive board meeting for the California Democratic Party, where I represent my assembly district. I am often really unhappy with the vibe I get at such meetings when it comes to money.

It's very "money is the root of all evil" (and coming often form folks who are pretty well-heeled.) And it very often has this patronizing attitude that "working class" people are somehow ennobled by being less well-off than wealthier people.

I really think it's possible to be paid to do something you believe in. I really think money doesn't always corrupt.

And some day soon I hope to have some money and prove it!!!

(And some day I'll write that long post about money too.)

Elisa Camahort
BlogHer and Worker Bees
elisa@blogher.org/elisa@workerbees.biz

Can't Decide Either Way

alexauxier — Fri, 04 Aug 2006 12:35:01 -0500

When I became the vice president of a web development firm I knew I would be forced to "sell-out" on many issues, primarily helping to market a company which has stated its main main goal as "taking over web design." This job status has required me to act in a manner becoming of a vice president (so I essentially sell the company at every turn). Often I feel as though I AM the job, the job IS ME. But you know what? If I take this to heart I can accept my new role because that means I am passionate about what I do. There is nothing wrong with passion. If I was complaining constantly about the role this corporation has in my life, but I was still helping to market and sell the brand, then I would be at fault. I would be the definition of "sell-out." But as it stands, I enjoy this company more and more everyday, especially since I notice the change I can effect in our operations, and thus I consider myself I part of the company at the very core.

So Wendy and everyone else struggling to define themselves through their work, more power to you!

Alex (vice president of www.webmastersintl.com)

I am not a woman, but I consider myself pro-feminist and my significant other would oblige.

about fitting in the urban outfitter M shirts

toy — Thu, 03 Aug 2006 17:32:42 -0500

could be im just losing muscle (sigh) and/or fat (yeah) mass...

totally self-indulgent swag marketing

toy — Thu, 03 Aug 2006 17:30:17 -0500

at my shows
i sell both the medium and large teeny tiny shirts
i love em and here in nyc
i see TONS of latina women who are way bigger than me
who dont have body issues
and wear those XS teeny tiny shirts
proving that they are way stretchable
and if youve got breasts and ass FLAUNT IT!

having said that
being a swimmer and a girl that plays with swords all day long
my arms dont fit in most of the gap baby doll shirts
thats why i make my swag in M and L
so i can wear my own shirts!

btw
today i found out
that my arms CAN actually fit in an urban outfitters M for females
and im figureing out that stretch marks in the tshirt is pretty cool

Point Well Taken

Kalyn Denny — Thu, 03 Aug 2006 16:59:22 -0500

Yes, Denise I do see what you mean. And certainly others are free to do whatever they want, and it's not up to me to decide whether they are selling out or not. I should have worded it more carefully. I am only saying that for me personally, I would not write on an extended basis for a site that makes money without expecting to be paid.

Kalyn Denny
Kalyn's Kitchen

You don't think....

Denise — Thu, 03 Aug 2006 16:52:36 -0500

You don't think that it's possible to write, as a volunteer, for any commercial site without selling out? It isn't possible that you might believe in the topic you're writing about? Want to make your voice heard or send out your message to a different or broader audience.

Let's think about some examples. My book blog is sitting in Blogburst right now. It's a blog I enjoy playing with but I don't do any serious bookblogging. The Statesman picked it up and I don't get a dime for it, and a little traffic but not a lot. I write the bookblog because I enjoy it and I leave it available to The Statesman because I'd like to tell people about the books I'm reading (I read a really wide range of genres). So I'm selling out because I'm not getting paid for this?

If, oh let's see, I don't know Johnson & Johnson called me and asked me to write a lesbian homeschooling blog as a volunteer, I might consider it because how often do you see lesbian homeschooling blogs? On corporate sites? I'm not all into gay activism, but there is a possiblity that under the right circumstances, I'd do it.

As for iVillage, I was a volunteer in their communities for more years than I even want to admit to. If I had not been a volunteer, I can safely say that I would not be where I am today - getting paid the money that I am making today. Through volunteer networking, I became employed - met Lisa Stone, met the person who hired me where I am currently employed (and umm met my partner). I believed in the communities of women I was working with and for - and for a long time I believed in iVillage the company. (I don't anymore, but that is another story entirely.)

I can do volunteer work for a corporation and not feel like I'm selling out. I think it's an individual thing, everyone needs to choose their goals and their path and I'd just like to be careful about using the word sellout for someone other than yourself. :-)

~Denise
Daily Dose of Denise and Fast Times @ Homeschool High

I Don't Mean Volunteerism

Kalyn Denny — Thu, 03 Aug 2006 16:30:47 -0500

Denise, I'm not talking about volunteering for a cause you believe in. Of course that's a good thing. I'm talking about sites that recruit bloggers to write content with no pay, when the site has ads and is obviously aq commercial site, and is making money. They get people to do it by telling them it will bring traffic to their own blog, which maybe it does, but to me this type of blogging for free is a sell out. This is quite common in the food blog world, but maybe not so prevalent in other blogging topics.

Kalyn Denny
Kalyn's Kitchen

It's a fine line...

Kung Foodie — Thu, 03 Aug 2006 14:40:25 -0500

I can agree with both Denise and Kalyn. It's a fine line to walk...there are a lot of things happening behind the scenes. Some people are happy simply to have the chance to write even if it's for free, either because they're new writers or because they want their voice to be heard, or maybe just for the recognition of being part of a large site.

On the other hand I think it's great that bloggers are learning the value of content and demanding payment. A few years ago 'writing for free' was a standard...but bloggers have the ability to change standards by simply making requests and not backing down. If you want a professional pay rate, then you have to start thinking of yourself as a professional.

It would be good to see more advanced business oriented sessions at future Blogher conferences; such as how to negotiate contracts, understand copyrights, and setting payment terms for writing and design. I know that a lot of the day one topics were targeted towards beginners...but I think Bloghers are ready to hear more about how to take it to the next level.

That said, I do think there is plenty of room for people to volunteer...but it's always best if you can do that from an educated perspective.

~Kat
Kung Foodie

Yes, YES!

eselfhelp — Wed, 02 Aug 2006 13:30:10 -0500

Hear Hear Jory!

It's taken me a long time to get to the point I am at in my life - that I feel like I would be selling out if I did NOT do everything within my power to ensure I am laying a strong foundation for financial success in my life. (Of course, keeping integrity in line, as you so rightly point out). Of course, with the blog and site so young, I'm not raking in the dough. But my financial goals are driving my business decisions as long as they don't compromise my ultimate goals - contribution, adding value, and making a difference.

I feel like I would be selling out to my limiting beliefs, my insecurities, my fears of lack and failure, and would push away all of the gifts this life has to offer us if I didn't put my foot down and ask for what I am worth - and I'm thrilled to see that you have done the same with your book deal.

With great power comes great responsibility - and you have responsibilities to this community as well as to yourself. If you cave on either you cave on both!!

Thanks again for putting a critical topic front and center for us!

Wendy

Founder of eSelfHelp.com and eMomsatHome.com.

Passionate about self help, adding value, and living a balanced and extraordinary life.

Great Question, Denise

Maria Niles — Wed, 02 Aug 2006 12:47:44 -0500

Interesting question and it is making me realize that I make distinctions. I gladly have donated a great deal of time, effort, energy and talent to the BlogHer community because I believe in it and because I am hoping that by volunteering I can help BlogHer grow to the point where it becomes a profitable, money-making venture that can employ women.

If it were a funded, established business that built community as part of its business model (like iVillage) I would be more hesitant to donate my time so that profit could be made from my work without compensation to me. That would feel like I was undervaluing myself and "selling-out."

And you are absolutely right - I think the value of communities to corporations is a fascinating topic and one that should be explored much further.

Thanks!

Volunteerism is a sell-out?

Denise — Wed, 02 Aug 2006 07:37:29 -0500

While I agree, women should be paid for their contributions, do you really believe that volunteerism is a sell-out? Look at community leaders at iVillage, are those women selling out simply because they volunteer huge amounts of time, effort, energy and talent to their community - a community making money (well sort of) and making it because their communities of women are so solid and loyal? (Which brings us to a spin-off someone should be doing, somewhere, about the value of community to companies - and the value of volunteers within communities and corporations.)

~Denise
Daily Dose of Denise and Fast Times @ Homeschool High

Very thought provoking.

Kalyn Denny — Wed, 02 Aug 2006 07:17:40 -0500

Very thought provoking. In my opinion the bloggers who are really selling themselves out are the ones who are willing to blog without pay for sites that make money. I see this a lot on food sites, and it makes me feel those bloggers are undervaluing themselves. I had a site that "offered me a position" as a writer and when I inquired about pay they seemed shocked that I would expect to get paid.

Kalyn Denny
Kalyn's Kitchen

Jory - fantastic post

mothergoosemouse — Tue, 01 Aug 2006 22:27:06 -0500

I especially like what you said about working with the companies who want to learn how to use social media to their benefit. It's those sorts of relationships that really afford us an opportunity to instigate change, particularly in areas where it would be least expected (and perhaps, most welcomed).

mothergoosemouse

not selling out, but moving on to the next phase

mbenet — Tue, 01 Aug 2006 20:22:21 -0500

I wrote a lengthier comment here praising your post Jory, but for some reason it didn't appear. Anyway, I just wanted to thank you for a great post and for articulating what my post on Alembic meandered on about.

As for the silliness of the Be Janes adn teeny T-shirts ... I bet that performance is not likely tobe repeated next year. We are learning, and the sponsors are learning, too.

awesome

Mom101 — Tue, 01 Aug 2006 20:03:20 -0500

Really Jory, great post. It's like damned if you do, damned if you don't. I heard that woman stand up in the mommyblogging panel and shriek that advertisers hate us! They're ignoring us! And yet when they pay attention, we've all "gone commercial."

You can resent the advertisers or you can wield your power. I say, buy more Dove soap, ladies.

mom101

What does it mean, to "sell out?"

Jory Des Jardins — Tue, 01 Aug 2006 14:26:23 -0500

Jory Des Jardins also blogs at Pause.

Of course I've been reading the many reports about BlogHer, and a huge topic seems to be the growing commercialism (or recognition, depending on how you view it) of the event by mainstream advertisers. I don't think it would be fair for me to use my forum as a BlogHer Business Contributing Editor to defend or argue any points regarding BlogHer's decision to have these sponsors represented. What I'd like to focus on is the concept of selling out, because I think that's what is the real issue at hand, and one that I've often thought about as a blogger and writer. It's also a key concept to achieving your most meaningful work.

I was blown away by Alembic's post on this topic. She looked at how women's blogging, as it was represented at BlogHer, is maturing into more commercial ventures for some, but more globally into making change happen via one's blogging. And she points out that aligning with sponsors doesn't necessarily translate into buying into that sponsor's messaging; it could mean partnering to effect change. I felt she nailed a key distinction that I like to make for myself when I'm on the cusp of a decision to play ball or stay small.

For example, as a consultant that introduced social media best practices to companies, the clients I often wanted to work with were the criticized stalwarts, the orgs whom the public perceived as not "getting it" but who really wanted to better understand social media. I don't feel like a dweeb saying that these kinds of clients are a pleasure--I get to open a new world to them and potentially leverage their corporate muscle to promote technology that facilitates greater authenticity. I don't believe that independent bloggers are the only forces that can emanate authenticity. If we effectively partner with forces larger than ourselves and know what we untimately want to achieve with that partnership, then we're leveraging great resources to effect change.

I think of Dove Soap's "Real Beauty" campaign. It's possible that someone at their ad agency said, "Let's do a campaign that puts regular-sized women in the spotlight in order to get regular women--our customers--to think highly of us." It's possible that there was no deeper meaning behind that campaign than to sell more soap. But can you argue with the results of growing de-stigmatization of realistic body types in the media? It's a step in the right direction, and one that I would support.

Likewise, if a company wants to better understand a community/idea/notion that I support, even if it's because it wants to make more money, not for some higher purpose, I will still consider that company as a partner if it will help me get my message out.

So then, where would I draw the line? When that partnership detracts from me transmitting my message.

My quintessential example as a writer is my still impending book deal. I want one--I won't lie. And I want to be paid well for one. In fact, I turned down several offers that I felt wouldn't pay me enough for the time that I knew it would take me while I was building a business with little to no pay. Money is important. But as I was going down the road of shopping my book and making alterations that the bigger houses required to make it fit more within parameters they were comfortable with, I started to feel conflicted. I knew that the end result wasn't going to be my best work, or my most important work, but rather a dilution of my concept, one so severe that it would conflict with what I wanted to achieve in the first place. I decided to go back to the drawing board, to re-establish my bottom line. Where am I willing to go to get my work out to the world? And when will I scoop up my marbles, say "thanks, but no deal" and go back home to my blog? I'm not certain yet, but I do know that in many cases bigger isn't the only way.

In addition to practical concerns I felt that taking a low-paying offer would have said, in effect, "Don't bother paying me much; my message is not that important." I understand that wasn't any publisher's intent, but I really do believe that our search for meaningful work is deserving of a higher advance, because it would translate to a higher promotional budget and getting the book into more people's hands. As a writer, and as a WOMAN, I think that getting paid is a message in itself. So many women throughout my working years have knowingly taken lower-paying work, discounted fees, no advances, initially as a means to something better, but then eventually as a way of life.

Commercialism isn't inherently bad, provided you know how to work with it. I think about the musicians/directors/actors who wow the public with their originality and then have sophomore slumps because they glommed onto the first major deal offered. On the other hand, I think of the legends who seemed to have dumbed it down or gone commercial, gone "soft rock" on us, and I'm not offended. With age comes change; some of us mellow, some of us move to the fringes, that doesn't mean we don't want to be paid to do what we love.

Whether you earn money by blogging or not I'm cool with it, as long as you're getting your message out and as long as you're not stifling your growth by insisting on not selling out. That's not being authentic; that's being a martyr.

(Image Source: www.plexiswireless.com)