BlogHer - Blogging & Social Media - Comments

At this time of anniversary celebrations at the Brandenburg gate

Kim Pearson — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 08:49:28 -0600

It's so important to keep the spotlight on places where people don't have the right to freedom of speech and conscience. The bloggers you highlight deserve admiration and support for their courage. I can understand why their assailants were afraid, and I am sure the leaders who ordered their brutality are afraid as well. They should be. History has taught us time and again that you can kill a person, but you cannot kill an idea - especially one whose time has come. But Cuban authorities are wrong to think that they can stifle dissent by shutting down bloggers. After all, copying machines were one of the major contributors to the demise of the USSR. Radio was essential to the revolutions in Guatemala, Cuba and Egypt. Raul Castro should know that media censorship failed under Batista, and it will ultimately fail in Cuba.

A Luta Continua.

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor|KimPearson.net|

Soul Travelers 3, please reread my post.

Pam — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:01:50 -0600

I think you are missing my salient points which are, briefly, as follows.

The tone of the conversation was spoiled by a few vocal participants who behaved badly.
Because of bad behavior, the opportunity to discuss an important issue was wasted.
Attacking individuals is not a good approach to meaningful online conversation. Claiming superiority is also not effective.
The cruise line missed an opportunity to participate in a valid conversation.

Well presented, thoughtful discussion is always welcome, even when the topic is confrontational. The valid discussion of environmentalism quickly veered away from being well reasoned and thoughtful to insulting and personal.

The question isn't the subject matter, it's the behavior of those in the conversation and the tone with which they chose to forward their agenda.

I think your comment contains the negative, defensive tone I found in the #followmeatsea discussion and I am sorry to see that here.

Nerd's Eye View
@nerdseyeview

I got invited for this and I

nomadicmatt — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 22:28:07 -0600

I got invited for this and I would have gone if I wasn't already going to Thailand. I think you make a lot of valid points and it has been dissapointing to see that Princess has let this hashtag go buck wild. They made it, they should be involved with it. I think it would have had more of an impact in making this experience more successul for them as well as giving them a chance to present their side of the debate so to speak.

Overall though, most of the attacks have turned personal and while I am 100% for good strong environmental policies as well as a legit discussion on the cruises and the environment, saying you are a better traveler than someone is sure turn the debate sour.

Having met many of the people on this trip, I have faith in them that they are going to inquire about the environment as well as not be paid mouth peices. It's dissapointing that some other people have so little faith in their friends. I don't think the travel community is as snarking as you, I just think a few people like to get everyone else worked up.

Overall though, I find a lot of fault with princess cruise for not working harder to make the debate more civilized or using this as a great chance to talk about their brand. They just let it go. Clearly, unlike you, they aren't social media experts :)

Eye Of Beholder

soultravelers3 — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 21:10:25 -0600

"I'm curious about how the PR folks feel about some of the language coming from those on board. You pay for someone to attend your trip and then, they get into a brawl while they're on it."

I'm really glad that you brought this point up Pam, because these things do not happen in a vacuum and MANY tweets from LOTS of different people (in and out of hashtag) criticized the oft repeated name calling, snarky,"junior high"-like cliqish behaviour and abusive, escalating argumentative behavior of several of the "guest" travel bloggers on this freebie press trip.

It takes two sides to tango and judging who is "right" or "wrong" in this varies greatly depending on the eye of the beholder. Perhaps every one involved...even those "eating popcorn" on the sidelines tweeting about it or sending juicy DM's.

MUCH of this whole problem goes back to the #twethics issue and thread. So many travel writers (who DO freebie press trips) argue vehemently that they are not the least influenced by the freebies, but of course that is not true and one could see it very clearly in the #followmeatsea hashtag (and blogs).

And it's not just these particular bloggers or even just travel writers. Media affects us all and who is paying the writer (via advertisement or freebies like press trips with lots of perks, etc) DOES color what is said/written! LOOK at the pattern on #followmeatsea and it GLARES at you.

Why do you think the press trip bloggers felt they had to CONTROL the hashtag? Why didn't they think it was their host's job to defend the environmental impact issues of Mega-cruise ships in the hashtag?? Why was/is it so scary to admit that Mega-cruises are the least sustainable of all travel methods? (Something regularly written in Media).

They even tweeeted:

1) Total fabrications like saying it was against Twitter rules to post (which it was not...everybody was talking about mega-cruise ships not sex!) and acted like a hashtag BELONGED to them! (Yet, IF it was a RT of possitive fluff from cruise industry or cruise loving tweeters - or their own multible accounts RTing themselves- or other travel bloggers doing serious butt-kissing tweets begging and asking for their own freebie Mega-cruise....those were perfectly acceptable!)

2) Some "blocked" ANYone who said anything that they thought was negative about cruising (many were peeps who only posted only 1 or 2 tweets in the thread or anywhere).I posted many, but often answering questions and acquisations from many! I normally have a heavy tweet pattern (as did others on the hashtag).

3) They even called a friend (Yes, the one who won two 2009 Lonely Planet Travel Blog Awards including one for Best Microblog & is featured in the latest edition of the 4HWW!) - whom they had known well for over a year and done several collaboratve online projects with (ie Notable Travelers, Experts on Travel Videos etc) and linked to them on their blogs, done articles about this person etc.... a "troll" "spammer" "STFU" etc etc.

4) Did lots of behind the scene email campaign to encourage other travel writers to join the junior-highish conformity contol pattern.

Before I entered the discussion in this hashtag, and questioned the enviromental impact of Mega cruise ships (based on our direct experience of visiting popular tiny, ancient ports for months at a time, talking to locals and seeing much damage first hand on our open ended non-stop world tour which began in 2006) there was nothing but endless, boring, fluffy tweets absolutely gushing.

I am not against press trips and think writers should be paid for their work, but I also hope that citizen journalism can move us out of the last century of corporate controlled media into something that is more honest, REAL discussion and allows every voice to be heard.

I find it hard to believe that so many that write about travel don't know about or care passionately about sustainable travel. Are we not aware of how many travel places are disappearing and shouldn't we try to educate the public,, instead of pretending a lie is true? (The press doing such things due to financial influence is how we ended up in Iraq and in this financial crash.)

As one cruise enthusiasts admitted, Mega-cruises are "not green" travel (even if it is the world's most green ship). I can respect that kind of honesty. People all make their own choices, but when one person's choice heavily impacts on another (like Mega-cruises or smoking) we have a right and duty to speak up. The Cruise industry CAN be changed and it has a long way to go.

I may be more passionate on this particular topic (based on our unique experiences as few travelers get to spend months at a time in MANY popular ports) but I'm not alone in seeing how debate was squashed into a fake, forced conformity. The travel community can be so controlling, punitive and overly sensitive on these issues that many are afraid to express what they feel. Trying to silence people will not work.Not on a place like Twitter and that's part of it's value!

Here are just a few who had the guts to speak out in a real and honest way which added greatly to the discussion.

RT @kevinlukemay: Me thinks the eco-debate was actually the only interesting thing about #followmeatsea. Gushing tweets about beaches = yawn

travelrants The cynical in me will be thinking; are these people just saying it because they are on a press trip, I can't help it :)

travelrants but problem with blogging/journo trips is its often one-sided. (positive)

minnemom

While I'm sure #followmeatsea folks are enjoying the cruise, I hope to read some balance in tweets, not all rosy.

SheilaS

For me, main turnoff to 900 foot, 3000 person #followmeatsea ship is that you're basically on a fancy bus trip, with thousands. Just not me.

SheilaS

Set up a #FollowMeAtSea column on TweetDeck. Tweets so far = 1) Wow, this is great or 2) What about environmental impact of such ships?

whoisJudy

appreciate Twitter as platform for valid discussion & debate, especially when involves our environment. keep sharing tweeple! #FollowMeAtSea

The main cruise industry even admitted that there are problems in over crowded ports where several Mega-ships can leave off up to 30,000 cruisers in tiny towns (via a local in Dubrovnik who has been trying to fight that) . Most of these small sites have several Mega ships at once in high season.

ExpertCruiser

#followmeatsea Yes, there are problems with overcrowded ports.

Maybe we should read more Emerson on the value of nonconformity or at least follow David Foster Wallace example in telling deep truths in entertaining ways?

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.To be your own man is a hard business... But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." Kipling

Kerfluffle

Pam — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 18:15:54 -0600

I just want to applaud your use of the word kerfluffle, a term that doesn't see daylight enough. Other than that, I've nothing to add.

Nerd's Eye View
@nerdseyeview

Ahoy from Crown Princess

Nancy Brown WhataTrip — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 18:09:36 -0600

Ahoy Pam,

The seas are calm today, both on the Crown Princess and #FollowMeAtSea.

In case any of you missed it, I did write a post asking your thoughts regarding Cruise Ship Environmental Impact, http://bit.ly/r6MQk before I boarded the Crown Princess.

Perhaps social media and Twitter can be compared to the anonymity one feels when driving in a car? Some people have no problem ranting and gesturing at a fellow driver, while in person, standing face to face, one would hope they would monitor their behavior more closely.

Nancy D. Brown

http://www.nancydbrown.com/

http://twitter.com/Nancydbrown

echoing the sentiment

krysleigh — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 17:42:18 -0600

I got invited on this trip, as well, and while I'm not big on cruises, I declined because I'm currently en route to Israel on an assignment instead, not because I'm against the concept by principle. To be honest, I was intrigued to go on a Twitter press trip after reading about the inaugural trip of the same to Hawaii last summer. While I missed a lot of the kerfluffle to which you refer, I'm going back and reading the 1,764,283 Tweets I've missed so far, and I must say, I'm quite happy I didn't go, too. That 5.5-hour inspection Kim referenced already has me exhausted from afar! I may Tweet a lot, but those Tweeters have not stopped for a moment to enjoy themselves. (I get it, that's the point, but still.)

Also, like you, I get terribly seasick, so cruise + hurricane does not a happy traveler make.

Bar Fight!

Pam — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:20:16 -0600

Thanks for your comment, Marc. I can't take any credit for Ida's calming, any more than I can for the debate calming. I figure the most wound up bloggers/twitterers went to bed -- and I did see some did publicly state that they'd knock it off, already. Let's thank them for that, I think they may have realized they were out of line.

It's still a messy experiment though. I'm curious about how the PR folks feel about some of the language coming from those on board. You pay for someone to attend your trip and then, they get into a brawl while they're on it. This is NOT the same as someone openly and sincerly offering a critique. Instead of saying, "I don't really like this free cocktail!" they engage in a bar fight. Oops.

Nerd's Eye View
@nerdseyeview

Well Said!

4suitcases_marc — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:12:17 -0600

Thanks for the timely post, Pam! Though hard watch, Sunday's little debacle made for an interesting case study in twethics, twetiquette - or whatever you want to call it.

As Crown Princess sails into calmer waters, it appears the discussion on #followmeatsea has leveled out, too. I guess they have you to thank for that!

I was also surprised that Princess didn't respond to its critics on the hashtag, but for what it's worth, their manager of media relations did contact me directly regarding my blog post (thanks for the link).

I suspect the cruise line didn't quite know what they were getting themselves into with this particular foray into the social media - hopefully they're learning a lot.

Perspective

Arrietty — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:00:18 -0600

Thank you for a sensible post on an issue that has been dividing our community. It's been more than a little hairy on Twitter these past few days!

I wrote my piece about the environmental impact of cruising for Blog Action Day before I'd even heard of the #followmeatsea cruise. (Thanks for the link!) When I first started seeing tweets about the cruise, I thought it was a good opportunity to highlight the post and suggest that writers going on the trip could promote the petition to get the Clean Cruise Ship Act passed by Congress. I left it at that.

I have had no part in the subsequent hijacking of the #followmeatsea tag and in my opinion, it went completely overboard both in the volume and the tone of the tweets. It's as if these travel writers were discovered eating babies rather than simply going on a cruise! Perspective was sorely needed in this debate - and your post is a good start. :-)

I completely agree with you that the trip's hosts should have responded, but I'm sure they'll be doing so in some way on board. I just hope that hard questions get asked because, while there are many legitimate improvements and initiatives in the cruise industry, there is always plenty of greenwashing and spin going around in travel marketing.

cruise control

alistaircw — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:04:50 -0600

Nice post, Pam. Like you, Away.com was invited to send someone on this trip but declined, though can't claim for any particularly compelling reasons. Scheduling mostly. Seems like this trip has become a Frankenstein's monster of a case study for the good and bad around social media. You certainly have to be engaging and listening at all times, which the hosts clearly weren't. Agree, though, that the Twitter mob shouldn't be going after the participants for their decision to join, as we all make these calls for lots of different reasons. Reminds me of a 15th century mob baying for blood at a public execution!

Bingo

Midwest Guest — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 12:53:14 -0600

I remember you asking about that trip, and I'd been wondering if you were grateful you'd turned down the trip :lol:

You said pretty much what I've been thinking these past couple of days.

Tim actually went and looked on the cruise site and says the green initiatives are difficult to find there...so this -would- be an excellent opportunity for the cruise line to highlight those initiatives and/or point people directly to the info at their site. Their lack of engagement represents a real missed opportunity here for them.

I, like you, am waiting to see what the trip participants publish about their experiences and hope to see some answers to some of the questions raised about environmental concerns and initiatives.

I'm also curious about what the appeal of a cruise might be for a traveler like me (a question I asked over on Gary's Everything blog). What is there to do if you don't want to eat all day, drink all night, lay on the beach endless hours or gamble in the casinos. The idea of a big cruise doesn't appeal to me...is there anything that might make me change my mind?

Like Dave, I had the feeling of watching a train wreck...one of those things where you don't want to look, but can't help yourself.

This isn't the first time that one particular cruise opponent criticized the industry online. I had a short online conversation with them months back on the same subject. The conversation started with a blast of -all- cruises as environmentally horrid, and I pointed the critic to the site for the 12-passenger cruise we'd taken to Alaska ( http://discoveryvoyages.com/ for the curious) and that company's green initiatives. Maybe that's why included -small- cruises as "good" in their comments this time around?

www.midwestguest.com

Deja Vu

Corinne@HaveBabyWillTravel — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 12:50:14 -0600

This is identical to what happened to Nestle when they created the #nestlefamily hashtag and invited a bunch of bloggers to blog about their visit to Nestle HQ. I'm all for hijacking the tag in the name of activism, but it's a little unfair to single out Princess for the environmental damage caused by all cruises. (Unlike Nestle, which is the world's largest food company and arguably the worst offender when it comes to unethical business practices).

Princess Cruises was smart to not put their name in the hashtag, but their silence regarding questions is just as unsettling. I'm truly surprised that yet another large brand has fumbled in the social media realm so quickly.

Nice one

rtwdave — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 12:30:31 -0600

Great post Pam - I stayed out of the melee on Twitter yesterday, but it was akin to watching a train wreck.

"The host had the opportunity to use this discussion as a platform to highlight their work to mitigate impact -- if it exists. They initiated the conversation by inviting a group of well connected travel twitter folks to talk about their experiences, but they were not prepared for either criticism or to participate themselves in more than just the barest, self promotional manner."

You hit the nail on the head with this observation. They must know their social media on a cruise experiment could draw negative feedback, but when it broke out, they weren't there to represent themselves. They missed a great opportunity, while attention was galvenized, to send some really powerful messages to the online travel community.

Either they decided to take a purposefully hands-off approach by not getting involved with the hashtag discussions or they don't realize the true reach of their own marketing effort.

BlogHer - Blogging & Social Media - Comments

At this time of anniversary celebrations at the Brandenburg gate

Soul Travelers 3, please reread my post.

I got invited for this and I

Eye Of Beholder

Kerfluffle

Ahoy from Crown Princess

echoing the sentiment

Bar Fight!

Well Said!

Perspective

See Also!

cruise control

Bingo

Deja Vu

Nice one