BlogHer - People of Size - Comments

Do you have fat co-workers?

Elana Centor — Sat, 10 May 2008 00:22:00 -0500

Allysa,

I just wanted to say that I take you at your word that you did not intend tosay that fat people were lazy, stupid , etc.

Where I disagree with you is that its a lifestyle choice. I am not convinced that obesity is a lifestyle choice. I think if someone could figure out what really causes obesity and Ido not believe its because people eat too much --then they would have a billion dollar solution.

The reason I wrote about this issue is that as a society we seem very comfortable discriminating aginst fat people.And, I wanted to have a discussion on how fat people are treated where you work.

The fact that companies are sending out the message that fat people are a drain on the bottom line is just the side bar conversation. It is an indicator that when it comes to discrimination fat people are fair game.

While many people have responded about not discrininating against fat people, I haven't seen much of a conversation about fat people on the job.

would you hire a fat person to promote your business? Do you subconsciously think that fat people are undisciplined.

Chances are you won't share those answers because it would not be PC to answer them. So if you can share obdservations of the treatment of fat people in your workplace that would b beneficial.

Just curious.

elana
Blogher Contributing Editor,Business&CareersFunnyBusiness

Sorry, but you did imply that obese people are inferior.

lauriewrites — Fri, 09 May 2008 16:22:38 -0500

Your opinion is offensive because it's trying so hard to be delicate, when what it means is clear: fat people are costing YOU money. Right. And depressed people cost me money (wow, I cost me money twice!), and single parents, and parents period, and single people, and drug addicts, and George Bush. Is there no special condition in your life that might cost money? There but for the grace of God go you.

If I sound pissed, I am. I am because I believe that fat prejudice is one of the last remaining acceptable judgments in our society, and I hate it. I also know the plight of many people in this situation - who are not, trust me, blithely sitting there making a "lifestyle choice" any more than people with super high metabolisms who can eat a gallon of ice cream and not gain weight are - and the very suggestion that they should be further discriminated against in the workplace is so bothersome to me I can't censor myself.

As Maria stated, I've been overweight for most of my life. I have also, for most of that life, been active in exercise, travel, walking, constant fidgeting, any number of things that should have helped me keep t his weight down. I've "worked on" my weight so much it's made me crazy, which used to make me eat more, but now I just try to live sanely and hope it all evens out and that my days of having to buy bridesmaid dresses are behind me. Turns out an inactive adolescence was enough to seal the deal for me.

Make no mistake, this is one of the great pains of my existence, and one that I will continue to work on not because I care about my employer (I mean, I do, really), but because I care about ME and my family. And I also like to rock cute clothes. And it irritates me to NO END when people who have not ever been overweight (I guess?) make judgments about overweight people, particularly those that suggest we exist to make life difficult for YOU.

If I were all of us, I'd be more concerned about an economy where benefits are steadily disappearing for all of us, fat or thin.

Then again I get pissed when a bigger person sits next to me on the plane and bumps into me, but it turns out that little people? They do that too! Imagine. Smallest woman ever sat next to me on the way back from New Orleans last month. Couldn't keep herself to herself.

Suggesting that a group of people are less rightfully employed because of their physical condition means that you consider them inferior. What happens when no work exists? Situations like West Virginia, where people are poor and therefore heavy in many cases. What, pray tell, are heavy people supposed to do if they can't WORK?

I've worked with some really thin, really messed up people about whom no handy statistics exist. Grouping people by body size means very little to me.

Finally, I believe that anyone who is prejudiced against overweight people and considers us a homogeneous group should live as an overweight person for a month, for a variety of reasons.

My five dollars. Sorry. This is a rough one. Too often heavy people are silent on the matter - it's not an easy situation, it can be embarrassing - so I speak up when I feel like I can.

Laurie

What happens when...

MommaMary — Fri, 09 May 2008 14:13:11 -0500

This isn't just about people being judged for being overweight. Soon, healthcare is going to say "Let's check your DNA" Oops, looks like you have this gene, which means you have a 60% chance of having a heart attack. We're not going to cover any expenses relating to that.

Our state governments have already introduced legislation to allow the collection, storage and ownership of our children's DNA of our children (specifically MN). So, when we can tell people "you're fat, so we're not going to cover your expenses, you're fat, so you're not good enough" that's just the first step on a really really dangerous and scary path! It won't just be about who's overweight, who's obese, but who has the genetic predisposition.

Bing obese is not equivalent with being OK

ebareeba — Fri, 09 May 2008 13:46:12 -0500

Here is my $0.02:

Firstly, there is a difference between being
overweight and being obese.

Secondly, being obese is a huge problem for the
people who are obese and as well as, through extension, for the rest of the
people.

The US society is a very relevant exemplification for
this serious problem: see the economic impact of this problem on the overall
population, the related social taboos (who lead to discomfort and dysfunctional
behavior), the related diseases and the cost of care associated with these
conditions, the amount of resources some people consume to satisfy their “special
needs” while some other people around the world suffer of hunger, the T-shirts that
scream "I'm proud to be FAT" -- all sorts of abnormalities.

Let me raise these 2 fundamental questions:

1. How many old obese people
have you seen around you? Compare this number to the number of old but not
obese people you see around you. Did you wonder why?

2. How many people are fat due to their genes? Did
you ever asked yourlself this question? If you did not, start googling this on
the Internet and you'll find out the answer.

If you are still not convinced, pack few things and
take a trip to Europe (but not to UK)
or Asia and let us know how many obese people
do you see around and why do you think that there aren't so many obese people
OUS?

Come back to US and start thinking rationally once
and for all.

On the other hand, let me attack another bothering
behavior some people make use of in excess: it is unacceptable, in any normal
contemporary society, for some people to hide from any real observation and
open minded conversation behind the fact that they are being
"OFENDED" by these conversations.

Those who get OFFENDED easily ........, please make
sure to lock your doors (after you get in) and never go out in the real world.
If we continue to deem OFFENSIVE all the things we do not agree with, how are
we ever going to have an open minded dialogue and stop the increasing number of
frustrated, frustrating, depressed and depressing people around us?

Think about it. Do us all a favor!

Of course there is a problem

h.e.eigler — Fri, 09 May 2008 12:30:21 -0500

Yes, obesity is a problem in North America. There are industries out there who market only to them. But until we can put some standards in place for decency we aren't going to get anywhere...take this Extra Gum commercial for example. When we look at society as a whole, I'm pretty sure there is more money made in making the obese feel like crap than there would be saved if the health issues suddenly went away.

And I'm out too

debontherocks — Fri, 09 May 2008 11:52:47 -0500

It's just that the standard of "admit your lifestyle mistake and deal with it so it doesn't cost the country" is not applied to anything else. It presumes that you can determine when obesity is and is not a health issue and is or is not caused by lifestyle variables within one's control.

Yes, knees get blown from carrying too much weight. Or skiing, Or playing football. Or running. I don't see those things getting attention as poor lifestyle choices. Bulimia and dieting leads to osteoporosis. Stress leads to chronic illness. We "pay" for all kinds of people's lifestyles--many of which were not choices at all. And the place where this argument matters to women is that other "lifestyle" choices in some people's eye also means STDs, unintended pregnacies, having too many children, late life high-risk pregnancies, AIDS, not choosing to work where you can get health insurance....all expensive problems that people would love to discriminate and legislate against.

Yes, we should have the discussion, about the root of societal nutrition, work style, activity and stress health issues. Yes we can and should provide the healthiest of options for all. But the heat is coming because of the "lifestyle" comments. The point is, you can not make employment decisions or policy decisions because of "lifestyle" without adding your own bias to the discussion. Your bias shows.

Deb www.debontherocks.com when life throws you on the rocks, it's time to get your rocks off

Against my better judgement

Lisse — Fri, 09 May 2008 10:22:03 -0500

I'm going to "weigh in" on this one.

First, I think we can make a distinction between "overweight" and "obese."

Second, when you travel to lots of different parts of the world and never see elsewhere the levels of obesity we have in this country, it's time to admit this is a problem.

Mentioning this problem seems to draw out a lot of responses on the order of "That's offensive, therefore it's not really a problem."

Deb:

The truth is obesity is a complicated issue. There is mounting evidence that it is depression related, which makes sense, because depression is very highly correlated with being oppressed. So if behavioral issues or genetics cause a child to be heavy, and then they are bullied, depression creates a cycle of overweight. It also leads to inactivity--children and adults do not want to expose themselves to more ridicule and begin to believe they can't do physical things.

I think we can agree on this, and agree that it's a problem.

I think we can agree that poverty and obesity are often seen together, not just for African-Americans either.

I think we can agree that poverty leads to more unpaid ER visits which drive up the cost of healthcare for everyone. Are those illnesses related to a poor diet?

For the two obese people I worked with, it was blown knees - down time for surgery, recovery, cortisone shots, physical therapy. They were out enough for it to be noticable. Interestingly, I also noticed that though they were fat, they were both extremely disciplined in most other aspects of their lives, so while I see where that assumption comes from, I don't buy it.

Using a stomach staple, lap band, or gastric bypass to lose weight? More power to you. Part of any personal or professional growth is knowing when to ask for help.

Discriminating for obesity seems akin to discriminating for pre-existing conditions, something I'm very much against. But we still have to address the national obesity problem somehow.

-Lisse

@ Home in the World

OH MY GOD!

alyssaroyse — Fri, 09 May 2008 09:04:21 -0500

Maybe I'm not out.

Of course obesity is complicated. So is anorexia. So is religion. So is.... you name it, it's all complicated.

ASking to discuss the roots and repercussions of it is not bigoted, it's scary as hell and it's saying "can we talk about the problems rather than call names and get defensive so that we can solve the problems?"

AGAIN - i did not say fat people are bad. I did not say that they are stupid, weak, worthless or anything else. I did not say the should be tossed aside and starved until they meet society's ridiculous standards of superficial beauty.

i DID say that IF A LIFESTYLE CHOICE is causing chronic health issues that are having a negative impact on a larger circle than just the individual, we need to look at it and weigh the costs and consequences.

Of course it's complicated. It's wrapped up in poverty, education, the healthcare system, our food supply chain and everything else.

But if every time some says, "can we look at it and talk about it" they are lashed and called bigots, then the conversations are not going to happen.

And if the conversations can't happen, then the bigotry will get worse. As it is now, it is ILLEGAL to ask about a potential employees health history. So, given the numbers on obesity costs, if we aren't' allowed to talk about it, then you are right, employers are probably more likely to just not hire fat people. Is that productive? NO!

If we are not allowed to talk about the fact that more children now than ever before have type 2 diabetes because they are obese - often because of lifestyle choices - without being called bigoted, then the conversations will not be had, and neither will the systemic changes that need to take place.

If the name-calling and defensiveness can get someone like me - who has built my entire life around fighting for social justice, change and dialog - to ant to throw my hands up ans say "screw it, there's no hope here," then imagine what it does to the people who do not have the same genetic need to help people "get along" that i do.

This is the problem.

How many times do i have to say that just because someone is fat does not mean they aren't smart, worthwhile, a fabulous addition to any family, workplace, conversation or relationship? Do i need to keep saying it so that people will hear that i said it?

But why are we not allowed to look at the facts that there is an epidemic of obesity in this country and for SOME PEOPLE it is a lifestyle choice that has far reaching implications on their lives and the economy. And why aren't we allowed to talk about it? Of course it's complicated. That's why we need to talk about it, and not call people names and not make accusations about our intentions as human beings.

And again - I am not talking about genetic predisposition to diseases. (As you mention in the case of African Americans.) I am talking strictly about the related healthcare costs of lifestyle choices that SOME people make and are the cause of obesity for SOME people. It's very complicated - but we can't get to the root if we can't talk about it.

I don't know what the PC way is to ask for the conversation. But I do know that attacking people isn't the way to do it.

(It's funny, I have read enraged posts in the past and wodnered why people kept going back in to defend themselves - like Dana with the Isreal post and Suzanne with a pro-life post. Now I get it. I really think I'm done responding, I'm just making it worse for myself. i do hope that somewhere this conversation can be had. There are millions of us killing ourselves with our lifestyle, but we can't discuss it. okay, i get it.)

ONE LAST TIME - there is nothing inherently wrong or unworthy about fat people. Many people are just fat because that's their genetic make-up. HOWEVER, there are some people who - due to lifestyle choices, unequal access to healthcare and healthful food and education about healthy lifestyle choices - are obese because of lifestyle choices. That is what we need to discuss from a perspective of access to education, information, food and health care so that it does not continue to drain our economy and justify the Draconian and bigoted policies that are increasingly popping up.

I don't know how else to say it.

-sincerely, from your apparently bigoted Blogger trying to engage in conversation and YES, save the world through engaged dialog about things that are really hard to talk about.

___________
Alyssa Royse
JUST CAUSE: A Web Site To Save The World

Start Her Up: A blog for Women Entrepreneu

What Outrageous Judgements

debontherocks — Fri, 09 May 2008 08:39:52 -0500

I recently consulted on a managment project in this area, and train on diversity issues, so this conversation really drew me in.

It's amazing how bold people think they can speak judgement and discrimination about this issue. How can this be okay?

Yes, it's common, but I have to say it's pretty shocking to hear some of Alyssa Rouse's bigoted comments given her "just save the world" tagline.

The truth is obesity is a complicated issue. There is mounting evidence that it is depression related, which makes sense, because depression is very highly correlated with being oppressed. So if behavioral issues or genetics cause a child to be heavy, and then they are bullied, depression creates a cycle of overweight. It also leads to inactivity--children and adults do not want to expose themselves to more ridicule and begin to believe they can't do physical things.

That same depressive cycle increases risk for many diseases. Other oppressed groups including African Americans, also have elevated health expenses--research says that the stress of bigotry and a reluctance to seek help from a medical industry that blames you are some of the reasons.

Also, the yo-yo diet industry leads to disease for many overweight people who have dieted throughout their lives, been preyed on by diet product salespeople and have cost themselves heart tissue and strained their organs doing so.

Truly, if you want to do something about the crisis you perceive, work on your own offensive bigotry. Nothing changes with distain, fear or hate. But better yet, don't think you have to make change. It's fantastic people are different. They aren't costing you anymore than you are costing them. I'm sure if we analyzed any one person's behavioral and life choices we could tote up a bottom line that makes them look like a pariah. Just work on yourself and that would be great.

Deb www.debontherocks.com when life throws you on the rocks, it's time to get your rocks off

I'm out...

alyssaroyse — Fri, 09 May 2008 08:23:46 -0500

I have said a thousand times that this isn't about being fat, it's about chronic illness.. I tried to say as many times that there are lots of fat people who aren't chronically ill, this isn't about them.

That's why this discussion can't be had. maybe I'm saying it wrong - apparently i am. i am NOT saying that fat people are bad, stupid, a drain on society or anything else.

I am saying that when people make lifestyle choices that cost society that it is not wrong to ask them to be responsible for them.

I DID NOT SAY THAT OVERWEIGHT PEOPLE ARE BAD, STUPID, OR EVEN CHRONICALLY ILL.

I'm sure I'm going to make it worse for myself here, and maybe get myself booted out once and for all here, but..... What about a woman who is a drug addict - and refuses treatment and change - that is hurting the productivity of a company and the by-product of her behavior is increased costs that the company can't afford. Should all of that be the responsibility of the company? Does that mean all women are being discriminated against?

No. It is saying that the BEHAVIOR and its ASSOCIATED COSTS are not the responsibility of anyone but the drug addict. Now, if there are no costs, no productivity loss, no problems..... then great.

As I said, this isn't about being fat..... It's about being chronically ill. And NOT ALL FAT PEOPLE ARE CHRONICALLY ILL. It isn't about fat people.

Further, there is a difference between chronic illness that "just happens" and chronic illness that is the direct result of a lifestyle choice.

I've learned my lesson. I don't know how to speak clearly I guess....

And YES, PLEASE, let's tax the living daylights out of people who produce highly processed, sugared, salted and chemical filled "food." And lets use those tax dollars to get fresh, whole natural food into the hands of people who can't afford them otherwise, and to fund education classes that will help people eat better, exercise more and avoid excessive use of all manner of drugs. GREAT!

Again, I am not saying that being fat is an inherent problem. I was - and still am - referring to people who have chronic health conditions as a result of being very overweight. (I also think that society's definition of "overweight" is probably skewed to the ridiculously skinny, but that's another conversation, that I've made the mistake of chiming in on.)

Anyway, I'm sorry that people thought I was attacking fat people, and I can't say again that's not what I was doing. I am asking to have a civilized dialog about the very real impact of chronic obesity that is a result of poor lifestyle choices, and unequal access to nutritious food. ILLNESS, not FATNESS. There are a lot of numbers that illustrate the problem, but how can we address the problem if everyone feels personally attacked? This was never a discussion about all fat people, it was a discussion about health care costs of the chronically ill.

I never suggested that all fat people are lying in hospital beds being a drain on society, that was an unfair attack that escalates this away from any possibility of being a productive dialog about a very real issue that people don't want to discuss because it is wrapped in things that feel bigoted and scary. But if we never make it through the wrapping, the discussion will never be had. And given the numbers about people who ARE suffering from chronic illness resulting from obesity, we need to talk abut it - about out food supply, about health habits, health care, economy and yes, about accepting the fact that people come in all shapes and sizes, and about accepting responsibility for our actions.

___________
Alyssa Royse
JUST CAUSE: A Web Site To Save The World

Start Her Up: A blog for Women Entrepreneurs

My Fat Mother Was A Ballet Teacher

Elana Centor — Fri, 09 May 2008 05:02:04 -0500

Alyssa,

Growing Up my mother taught ballet. As a very young woman in Israel she was part of a professional dance troupe. Because of the line of her work she was told she was fat even when the pictures show she had a lovely figure as a young woman.

In her 3os she was pleasantly plumb and then she became very fat. She still is. She is 82. She is in perfect health.

She exercises every day which includes walking one mile to the Y, swimming 1/2 mile in the pool, depending on the day, stretching, or working out with weights and then walking a mile back home.

She has spent her entire life trying to lose weight. I thought it was important to share my filter on the weight issues.

I'm all for people having healthier lifestyles but I also think there is a genetic component as Maria shared and lumping people into a category as fat which conveys, lazy, undisciplined and weak is to me the key issue. I believe if we could change the mindset to see people's abilities rather than their size-- we'd all be better off.

As far as the health care costs of treating the morbidly obese...which is different than being 20 to 30 pounds overweight, why not tax food companies that are including addictive ingredients that are known to cause weight gain? ( I'm not really suggesting that but if you want to go to the root cause, let's really go to the root cause)

elana
Blogher Contributing Editor,Business&CareersFunnyBusiness

Wow

h.e.eigler — Fri, 09 May 2008 00:58:13 -0500

A lot of this is really offensive

I have several really good friends who are obese. I love them, I turn
to them in times of joy and sadness. They are some of the smartest
people I know. But I do not feel like it is my responsibility to cover
their excess expenses.

Do your fat, smart, lovely friends not have jobs? Do they not contribute to society? Do they not pay their taxes? I don't understand how YOU (and the average weight folk) are covering their expenses.

Yes, some overweight people get sick, but they aren't all lying in hospital beds eating cheetos.

Sadly, I think this is a no win dialog

alyssaroyse — Thu, 08 May 2008 23:00:42 -0500

I agree with everything that Candelaria said, including the fact that it's a slippery slope..... but does that mean we should avoid it? I think the fact that it's slippery means there is a lot we need to talk about....

I don't pretend to have answers - rather am willing to engage in dialog in the hopes of finding some.

But I do feel confident of a few things.

It is not necessarily right to impose increased taxes and healthcare costs on all people to cover the preventable health issues associated with lifestyle choices that some people make.

It is just as wrong to assume that just because someone is shaped differently, disabled, colored differently, speaks a different language or is any other way divergent from a non-existent norm, they are in any way less valuable or less capable of being brilliant, engaging etc....

There is a LOT of territory between irrational discrimination and the mandated acceptance of destructive behavior that places an undue financial burden on those who had nothing to do with the destructive behavior.

I would never suggest that anyone shouldn't feel strong, powerful and beautiful in their body. Never. But I would also never suggest that someone else should have to pay for the costly repercussions of my own bad habits.

IF health issues associated with obesity and smoking are placing an undue financial burden on businesses, and they ar preventable health issues that result from personal choices, why should the businesses have to pay for them?

That's really the only question. Shouldn't higher risk behavior be associated with higher cost of "insurance?"

And yes, obviously, seemingly healthy people die all the time, but the issue here isn't risk of death, it's cost of long-term healthcare for the treatment of chronic conditions brought on by lifestyle choices. It's not risk of death, it's cost of life.

___________
Alyssa Royse
JUST CAUSE: A Web Site To Save The World

Start Her Up: A blog for Women Entrepreneurs

A slippery slope

Candelaria Silva — Thu, 08 May 2008 22:37:30 -0500

There are moves afoot to ban people from work for all sorts of health reasons or to charge them more for habits like smoking. Now, I know women who are skinny largely in part because they smoke - should they be discriminated against in their place of employment? What about people who high blood pressure or arthritis and it has nothing to do with weight? What about someone who suffers from anxiety attacks?

If one can perform the job one should be a candidate for the job. I am a large woman - who has gotten a lot of jobs that require me to be in the public light despite the fact of my size. I know how to work my body and I carry myself proudly in the world. I grew up being accepted for my size. I love to eat and exercise and dance and write and read and volunteer and participate in life. I refuse to absorb much of this society's anxiety and bull-crap over size. As with women who are average weight or underweight there are a variety of ways and lifestyles to people who are overweight or obese.

What about someone who is fat and fit and is disease free? I have posted an entry called Lush, Voluptuous, Bountiful, Fat and I encourage you all to read it.

As for good health, the two friends in my circle who have died the youngest, exercised religiously, ate bountiful vegetables, didn't smoke and cancer still took them out of here. they didn't make it to their early 50s like me.

It's a slippery slope when one starts making employment decisions based on surface characteristics, including age. If you live long enough - you will get older, then old, and perhaps fatter and you will still have something to offer the world but people will not give you a chance.

I, for one, pick up my power and use it!

I don't know you

alyssaroyse — Thu, 08 May 2008 22:15:21 -0500

But i'm quite sure that I'd be totally comfortable around you, regardless of what size you are. I would also assume that you are smart, capable of anything you chose to do and an asset to any conversation, event, or workplace.

And I did say MOST for a reason. There are absolutely some people who are just bigger than "average," (whatever average is.) And some of those people are probably perfectly healthy, no doubt about it.

BUT, when you look at the statistics of health care problems and costs associated with obesity, it's pretty hard to argue that we aren't all paying for it. Not YOU, but the overall trend.

And it's pretty easy, in MOST cases to tie it back to poor eating and exercise habits. Again, MOST not ALL.

This is a country that is fed on highly processed foods that are high in calories and low on nutrients. A country that drives everywhere and is increasingly sedentary. You have to go out of your way - and have more time and money than most - to eat natural foods and get enough exercise.

We do not provide sufficient access or education about healthful habits and do not put enough emphasis on HEALTH rather than shape.

The statistics that were cited in Elana's post, and that have been discussed in terms of economic impact have to do with health issues, not shape. As such, they don't necessarily apply to you, since you are not having health problems.

But there is an enormous amount of research pointing not only to the problems but the cost of those problems associated with obesity. Again, not body shape, but health conditions.

I know it's a hot-button issue (which is why most people avoid talking about, and maybe i should have too.) But it's not an issue of body shape, it's an issue of chronic health issues that society pays for that are often exacerbated by obesity that is often the result of poor personal choices.

I regret that you felt attacked by me, but my point was about health issues not body shape. Clearly, you are NOT part of this problem.

And there is ample evidence that - just like smoking, drinking, drug use - for MANY people it causes massive health problems with significant economic impact. If those health issues could be avoided by making lifestyle changes, why should we all have to pay for them?

It's a question. I'm willing to take the heat for asking it.

Again, it has nothing to do with body shape, but with health. And very real consequences.

___________
Alyssa Royse
JUST CAUSE: A Web Site To Save The World

Start Her Up: A blog for Women Entrepreneurs