BlogHer - abaya - Comments

I have to remind myself, too, that it was 60 years ago

Kim Pearson — Wed, 28 May 2008 14:01:15 -0500

Hi Suzanne,

I know what you mean. At the same time, I remember that even in the West, women were being pushed back into the home after WWII. When I was in high school, it was routine to hear people say that men should be given a preference in hiring over women, "because they have families to support," and women presumably didn't, or had husbands. So the historical context of Qtub's observation is relevant too. Now the fact that there are people who still think that way is another matter.

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor|Professor Kim|

Exactly what makes it so difficult

Suzanne Reisman — Wed, 28 May 2008 13:42:14 -0500

Kim, I think you hit the nail right on the head as to why it is so difficult for Western feminists to make more effort to understand other cultures and work within their framework versus just demand change. Reading that passage is so alienating to me, I want to scream. In some ways, it is just too frustrating to set aside my own biases when it is clear that other people are not interested in doing the same. To me, Qtub's interpretation of why women work is so slanted and irrelevant, and yet, the important thing is to read between the lines and understand why he thinks that way. It is just easier to throw up our hands in defeat, and of course, that is exactly what we should NOT do. Listen and learn, and we can make better progress according to what people want and need, if that makes sense.

It's also interesting that a completely separate discussion of this post took place over on one of the blogs sited in the post. They people who posted there had some very interesting points, and in many ways I was discouraged that no one chose to make them here in conjunction with the post. Again, if people don't feel like their views are welcome for whatever reason , it's hard to find understanding because we aren't even engaging each other.

I'm really interested in how feminism manifests itself across cultures (both within and outside of the western world), and I hope that this conversation continues. There's a Birds of a Feather session for feminism & gender at the BlogHer conference, and I'd like to address this topic if others are interested in it.

Suzanne Reisman, Contributing Editor - Feminism & Gender
Campaign for Unshaved Snatch (CUSS) & Other Rants

Misread perhaps..but a fascinating look at

Crunchy Carpets — Sun, 25 May 2008 12:48:08 -0500

what we consider the norm or us fighting for equality...

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Reading and misreading a culture

Kim Pearson — Sun, 25 May 2008 11:22:04 -0500

Suzanne, I understand you to be saying that we can strive to understand other cultures on their own terms without abandoning our own moral compass. On this point, I completely agree. Even when it comes to horrifying practices such as female circumcision, we can't engage others constructive if we can't at least understand why people who participate in them find them not only acceptable, but commendable.

It's also important to remember that Islam and Islamic culture ar no more monolithic than Christianity, Judaism and the cultures they influence. I came across an interesting article that describes two competing strains of Islamic revivalism, each with a different view of what's good for women. It's both horrifying and fascinating to me that the intellectual godfather of al Qaida, Sayyid Qtub, began turning against the West when he studied literature in Colorado from 1948 to 1951.

Reportedly, he was alienated not only by the racism he experienced, but also by what perceived as the rampant sexual exploitation of American women. He asserts that women work in the US because men don't live up to their responsibilities to support us.

In my Race Gender and News class, we read a brief excerpt of Qtub's writings on women and discuss it. Here is the passage that always gets a reaction from them:

And while today we watch the material West preferring women to men in
some professions, particularly in commerce, in embassies, in
consulates, and in information services such as newspapers and the
like, we must not forget the regrettable and unsavory significance of
this advancement. It is a form of slavery and servitude in an
atmosphere of the smoke of incense and opium. It is the employment of
the sex instinct by the tycoons and potentates of the merchant world;
and similarly the government sends women into embassies and consulates,
and newspaper editors send women to glean news and information. All of
them are merely attempting to make use of women; and they know what
success a woman can have in these fields. They know, too, what she must
give to achieve her success. And even if she gives nothing -- which is
an absurd supposition -- they know what hungry passions and eager eyes
are on the watch about her body and about her reputation. But they take
advantage of women's hunger for material gain, and for some slight
success; for humane and noble feelings are far, far from them."

Last fall, one of my students who had gone on exchange in Egypt pointed out that from what he saw. males and females live largely sex-segregated lives there. He suggested that men such as Qtub probably had little casual interaction with women outside of his family, and even that contact would probably have been constrained by the larger culture. That made it easier to understand why Qtub could so easily misread our culture.

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor|Professor Kim|

I don't know if it was an overreaction in France

Crunchy Carpets — Tue, 20 May 2008 12:29:25 -0500

Europe is facing many problems based on race and religion and there is a battle for control going on....

France decided that the safety of women and women of a certain religion etc was in danger and also a focal point of many problems and that was the action that was decided upon.

Canada and the US has not seen the HUGE influx of immigrants legal and illegal from many muslim countries that the UK and Europe has.

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If western ideals are

writergal8 — Tue, 20 May 2008 10:52:37 -0500

If western ideals are "shoved" down other cultures' throats, then I guess to you, people in Hong Kong have now been "brainwashed"? I recall lots of students from Hong Kong at my alma mater, most as boarders. Some of my alma mater's traditions are based on those of boarding schools in the United Kingdom. Many parents actually prefer such a school than public, as it's closer to the traditions back home.

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very true

mashadutoit — Fri, 16 May 2008 07:06:14 -0500

"The measure should be what would happen to the woman if she decided not to do it. "

I could not agree more. And you are perfectly right that there is the world of difference if women are living in places where they face violence or phsycological abuse if they dont follow certain dress codes.

In Cape Town a girl was recently beaten up at a taxi rank because she was wearing a short skirt. The men justified this in terms of "she was not showing respect to our culture" - black women should not wear short skirts.

All in the name of culture.

But I think its also important to remember those not so obvious aspects of mainstream western culture that also keep women "in their place". We might not be in purda, and a lot of it is self imposed - but isnt it also very harmful?

The key is "choice"

MMarquit — Thu, 15 May 2008 18:08:35 -0500

If a woman wants to wear an abaya, more power to her. In Saudi Arabia, though, it isn't her choice. A woman must wear an abaya, regardless of what she wishes, or face very real legal consequences. In Saudi Arabia, a woman cannot drive, whether she wants to or not, because she is a woman. The choice is not there.

I agree that banning headscarves in France was an overreaction. That takes the choice to wear them away from girls who want to express themselves and their culture in that particular manner.

Sure, we can ask what it means that a woman wears certain things or subscribes to certain practices. But that should not be the measure of whether we tolerate it as "right." The measure should be what would happen to the woman if she decided not to do it.

For their own good?

mashadutoit — Thu, 15 May 2008 14:35:19 -0500

I agree with you, Suzanne, about being careful of kneejerk reactions when it comes to judging the culture of others.

For example the banning of headscarves in France, for muslim girls. To me that verges on the racist. It is an intollerant reaction born out of ignorance and an unwillingness to understand context or the feelings of others. As soon as you find yourself saying "it is for their own good" you need to get worried!

In our neighbourhood there are many women who wear a type of burqa outfit that cover them complete - even sometimes a veil over their eyes. The fabric is brightly coloured and patterened and (judging from their husbands) they are black muslims and must be from some northern african country. I am too ignorant to know which one!

They are strange to me because so much of our comunication is through body language and facial expression. And often you find them in Woolworths shopping for lingery wich is a little surreal for some reason.

In a world of jeans and t-shirts, coca cola and 50cents, its so precious to find people who are proud to display their difference.

I find the whole female circumsition thing horrific though. And what about cultures who consider the environment to be theirs to exploit? I can think of some "western" cultures who have no problem poluting and poisoning with no thought to the people who share resources with them. And is it OK for our sangomas to slaughter endangered owls, baboons and hummingbirds for muti?

There are no easy answers here.

Better understanding = change

Suzanne Reisman — Thu, 15 May 2008 12:51:38 -0500

Yes, I agree with you that something that is obviously abusive is not acceptable. However, I think that without better understanding of a culture, it is hard to create change. The most effective and permanent changes in any society generally come from within. If people shut out others, who despite good intentions, come off as arrogant and judgmental, it is not going to allow for success.

I think a good example is the abaya. Many women like wearing the abaya because they feel protected by it. Without it, women say men stare at them and make them uncomfortable. Of course, in my mind, men have no inherent right to harass or ogle women and the solution is not to hide women for their own safety, but to change social attitudes. That type of change can take eons, so it is important to hear what women are saying about feeling unsafe and find ways to address that while also doing what needs to be done to change broader attitudes. Just telling people, "You shouldn't do this," without figuring out why it is done is just not going to accomplish anything.

Plus, understanding our own culture is critical. It's not like early Western feminists overnight adopted the attitudes we have today! As we learn more about others, we also need to learn more about ourselves and why we have certain beliefs and assumptions. But you are right that it's not OK to say, "well, in their culture, they beat women, so we have to respect that."

Suzanne Reisman, Contributing Editor - Feminism & Gender
Campaign for Unshaved Snatch (CUSS) & Other Rants

When a culture is deeply abusive

Vered — Thu, 15 May 2008 11:56:56 -0500

Perhaps cultural relevance is important as a means to get the Western message of human rights across, but some cultures are so barbaric, so cruel and abusive, that I don't see what's wrong with labeling the Western culture as "better" or more just.

I don't see why we need to make an effort to "understand" a violent, discriminating culture. Unless you think it will make our message better heard and accepted. That’s the only reason I can think of.

Vered DeLeeuw
www.momgrind.com