BlogHer - Kyla Ebbert - Comments

It is discrimination, and

LizaWasHere — Wed, 12 Sep 2007 14:54:09 -0500

It is discrimination, and IMO it is wrong.

Whether it is illegal discrimination is a separate question; it is true that 23 year olds and blonds are not protected classes under any US civil rights law. And whether SWA was completely within it's rights is also a complicated question. I expect that it will depend on the fine print in the ticket purchase agreement, but that document probably does involve SWA saying that the customer agrees that the airline can refuse service under fairly broad discretion.

Having said that, it does seem strange that a company as casual as SWA would suddenly decide to unforce a passenger dress code. I would have been much less surprised if Saudi Airlines declined to allow a female passenger in such a short skirt to board a flight.

Liza
Founder & Coordinator, LesbianFamily.org
Personal Blog, LizaWasHere

Actually, you're wrong

eljeffe — Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:19:25 -0500

Calling this discrimination, at least in any legal sense, is simply wrong. There are very specific "protected classes" which may not be discriminated against; blond 23-year women are not included unless you believe that this was done specifically because of her gender. That, of course, would fly directly in the face of common sense given the tens of thousands of women who fly Southwest every day (none of which I've ever seen wearing anything quite like this). I personally hope they would do the same thing to any 23 year old male that decided to wear a thong on board.

You may disagree with Southwest's policy or handling of the situation, but the fact is that they were completely within their rights.

This is the way I look at it...

sassymonkey — Tue, 11 Sep 2007 10:26:51 -0500

If there was ever an emergency and the plane had to be evacuated I'd prefer not to get friction burns on my butt on the way down the slide. Therefore I would never wear that on a plane. But if she was ok with it hey, why not. If there are dress requirements they need to post them.

Personally I'd prefer they do something about cologne than short skirts.

Sassymonkey and Sassymonkey Reads.

No Italian Girl Under 30

Pam — Tue, 11 Sep 2007 10:06:06 -0500

Genius. Hilarious. True.

Honestly, my outrage levels are tapped out. Air travel is such a trial, it really is, that this is just unsurprising to me.

It is, however, sexist (I'm imagining that guy in the tiny cutoffs and the cutaway tank top in this conversation, you know, the one with the hockey hair), absurd, and one more thing to complain to your airlines about. There's isn't a dress code, it's not a private club, and airlines don't set the stage for what's "acceptable dress."

There's a whole 'noter issue around "young women are dressing trashier and trashier" but I fear that those are the words of every generation, and I'm just not going there, I don't have the tools or the desire.

Judith, I'd be outraged if I had any left. I would. I'm gonna have to leave this to you.

Nerd's Eye View

Yep

kperfetto — Tue, 11 Sep 2007 09:22:41 -0500

Although no one will admit to it, there's definitely racist overtones there. I said this on another topic, but there's a mall where I live that prohibited bandannas and "do-rags."

I as a thirty-year-old white woman have been in that mall wearing a blue bandanna, and no one asked me to leave.

Five Dollar Camera & Five Dollar Radio

Why aren't we outraged?

Judith in Umbria — Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:43:27 -0500

No one, not even the airline PR department has said that she was flashing anyone. They DID remove her from the plane like a dangerous criminal. They did try to make her change clothes. They did create a situation that I wouldn't tolerate. So she pulled up her tank and pulled down her skirt.

Basically, no Italian girl under 30 could have gotten on that plane.

I hate these too-tight, too-expository fashions, but it's what girls are wearing. Everywhere. This girl was selected to be humiliated because she's dressed like a hooker, but 80% of the girls I saw on the streets this summer were dressed like hookers.

http://www.judithgreenwood.com/thinkonit/

We had the knee rule

Elana Centor — Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:13:06 -0500

As part of the last generation that had to wear skirts to school, our principal made us take the knee test. if we bent our knee on a chair and you saw skin, you were sent home. Somewhere around the end of my senior year, the mini skirt became popular and I broke school policy -- at the time it was the most rebellious thing I did.

elana
Blogher Contributing Editor,Business&CareersFunnyBusiness

Finger Tip Rule

kimber30 — Mon, 10 Sep 2007 18:58:21 -0500

When I saw the picture of Kyla Ebbert, it made me think of my 16 year old daughter and most other girls between the age of 16 and 25. Nothing more, nothing less.

The guideline that my daughter was given at school is the "finger tip rule"; when she hangs her hands down at her sides, the hemline must be below where her fingers end. A fashion adviser visiting their school advised that an ensemble will not look trampy if a "balance" is established: if you show legs, cover shoulders/chest/back; if you are wearing a tank top, longer clothing on the bottom.

Kyla seems to have fallen within these guidelines albeit barely. If someone was able to get a glance of panties, it was still less than he would see on any "family" beach.

The point is, they are guidelines, not laws, not company policies.

I would be much more comfortable on an airplane sitting next to this clean, stylish lady than the un-showered, bad-breathed, coughing, obviously cramped person who I usually spend 4 hours with; watching him grow over the armrest into my space.

The airlines seem to have no problems making the seats smaller with every "improvement" on their airplanes but they are now citing concern about the comfort of their passengers in the form of a short skirt.

Nice.

Kim
http://whats-next.typepad.com

Flight Service or Fashion Police

Pam — Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:58:45 -0500

I think there are a lot of behaviors on airplanes that warrant "adjustment." I can't bear it, for example, if someone is soaking in perfume or aftershave on a plane. That's pretty offensive. And if Ms. Ebbert was indeed flashing the passengers, well, yeah, someone could have politely tipped her off.

"Miss, you're displaying your goods" discretely whispered in an ear would have done the trick. Instead, we're reading about a scene complete with walk of shame. Ms Ebbert's indiscretion in her choice of travel clothes is bad, but the airlines response -from an organization that's supposed to be providing travel service, not fashion advice, is a lot worse.

Nerd's Eye View

Not kicked off

jewelmcjem — Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:40:50 -0500

Here's the thing. She wasn't kicked off. She was asked (privately) to adjust her skirt so her stuff wasn't hanging out. I don't see that as so awful or ridiculous.

--Gem

Bloggin' away at My So-Called Homeschool

It's about consistency

Elana Centor — Mon, 10 Sep 2007 06:04:57 -0500

I don't think companies have the right to refuse business to anyone--that would be called discrimination and I do believe we have some laws against that kind of behavior.

Companies, within reason, can set parameters --like the saggy pants and backward caps but as Laurie shared, in her experience "saggy pants" is code for young black men and that would be discrimination.

If Southwest Airlines wants us to start wearing our Sunday Best and white gloves then tell us. We will decided if we want to fly their airlines.
What I didn't include in my original post is thaton the flight home , the flight attendants at SWA complimented her on the exact same outfit.

I wasn't there.I have no idea what her skirt was and wasn't revealing. Where I strongly disagree with you is that companies need to make the policies known ahead of time. I nor Kyla Ebbert can conform with a dress code unless we know about ahead of time( see the vatican).

This incident follows on the heels of the flight attendant who forced the woman with the crying child off the plane --- I truly didn't know airlines could do that. If airlines removed every crying child from the airlines there would be a lot more available seats.

For me, the real story is that Southwest didn't apologize and seems to be defending its actions which does seem out of character for its corporate personality.

It's not okay to single out one passenger,on one flight where other passengers on other flights wearing very similar outfits are allowed to board without incident.That is discrimination.

elana
Blogher Contributing Editor,Business&CareersFunnyBusiness

I disagree. No apology needed from SWA.

Melanie Nelson — Sun, 09 Sep 2007 20:00:58 -0500

I have to respectfully disagree with your post. I don’t believe that SWA owes this woman an apology for anything. I think all businesses hold the “right to refuse service to anyone” and she fit that bill--whether the dress code was posted or not.

If you look at her picture you can see that where she has the skirt (after she pulled it down) would have to be about the middle of her butt. In response to your comment above, I think no matter what your angle was you’d be treated to some sort of view (before she pulled it down).

As for calling SWA hypocritical because of what attendants wore 20 years ago, I think that’s reaching. SWA’s policy has clearly come a long way and now they would like their patrons to show the same respect. Besides, in the picture you show, I’d bet everything that those hotpants are STILL longer than that skirt before she pulled it down.

Chilihead
Don't Try This at Home

My 23 year old son wears sagging pants

Elana Centor — Sun, 09 Sep 2007 17:30:39 -0500

It's a style I just don't get, but then I'm 56. My son who is college educated and some might say privileged is a devotee of that style -- because of that I think of it as generational. Eager to hear what others have to say.... I just thought some places are sick of looking at these guys underwear.

elana
Blogher Contributing Editor,Business&CareersFunnyBusiness

on a different note

laurie — Sun, 09 Sep 2007 15:16:06 -0500

When a sign says, "no sagging pants and ball caps forward" what are they really saying. My spouse and I saw a couple of signs like that in Chicago and interpreted it as, "no young, black men."

Does anyone else feel there are some racist overtones here?

laurie
www.notjustaboutcancer.blogspot.com

Your Post is Spot On

Elana Centor — Sun, 09 Sep 2007 12:41:54 -0500

The real issue is not knowing "the rules" or as they say in corporate america - the policy. a policy is nothing more than a decision made ahead of time . When a person breaks the rules, its assumed they knew the rules in the first place.

Just tell me the rules. If I don't like them, I'll give my business to a company that bettermatches my tolerance for their rules.

elana
Blogher Contributing Editor,Business&CareersFunnyBusiness