BlogHer - constitution - Comments

Education is so much more than school

alyssaroyse — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 00:36:03 -0500

I'm also a big public school advocate. (went to them, taught in them, have a kid in them.) It seems to me that is should go without saying that an education population generally has a better shot at being able to sustain themselves - and I believe there are statistics that illustrate the relationship between education level and over all cost / benefit to society.

That said, those things are very dry and very one-dimensional. I worry that our definition of success has gotten too rooted in the acquisition of titles, money and things. I worry that we have forgotten that, for centuries, people learned trades and were respected for them. That for many people, being a chef or a house painter or a farmer or.... are all wonderful, fulfilling and successful careers.

I had a conversation a few months ago with one of my daughter's friends who wanted, at the time, to be a photographer when she grew up. She insisted that she needed to go to an ivy-league school to learn this trade. I explained to her the basic cost benefit analysis of an ivy-league education compared to the salary of a photographer and the likelihood that the ivy-league education would help anything in that career. And she just said, "but I have to go to a good college."

I think we've ost sight of the fact that an education should teach kids how to think, how to be themselves as adults, how wo be an engaged part of the world. And that for every person that's different.

It's a complicated subject. We actually just released the September Issue of JUST CAUSE Magazine, and it's pretty much all about education, Back To School Issue. (Link to FREE subscription: http://www.zinio.com/justcause)

____________

Alyssa Royse

Just Cause It: A Web Site To Save The World

READ the magazine

Yes, and you are taxed very

audreyh68 — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 18:36:30 -0500

Yes, and you are taxed very heavily to maintain the NHS. 11% I believe, on top of already outlandish tax rates, and then throw in the VAT on top of all that which is a stifling 15% right now but will increase to 17.5% on Jan 1st.

I immigrated to the UK in 2003 and am married to a Brit. Having lived there and experienced the NHS first hand, it was one of the driving reasons I came back to the US and immigrated my husband here.

The US can not afford to do things the way the UK has and is currently running things. My husband is chomping at the bit to reply to your comment, but out of respect for Gena and to keep things on topic, I'm not going to let him...not in this thread anyhow.

My bottom line, education is a right. Our founding fathers knew this. I don't see it as being socialistic when I'm paying for my own child's education, as my taxes have done so, for several years.

Gena, When I have the time,

audreyh68 — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 18:28:45 -0500

Gena,

When I have the time, I'll find the link about not being able to opt your children out of certain classes involving sexual orientation in CA. And I'm not ready for a fight. I have no dog in this fight as it were, in CA. I went to both Private and Public school out there and am better for both. However back then, my mother had the option of opting me out of certain classes without it affecting my GPA and I know for a fact, in a lot of districts down there, that is not the case. She's fighting very hard for two families with children who were punished because they were taken out of class on certain days when material their parents objected to was presented in class.

And it IS germane to the discussion because it has to do with what is being PUBLICLY funded in our schools!

In the end Gena, this isn't a fight. It's a difference of opinion. And for the time being anyhow, you and I are still allowed to freely express those and frankly, whilst I might not agree with you, I'd take up arms to assure you the right to remain free to express your opinion.

Socialist Medicine?

Roxsie — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 12:22:21 -0500

Just a small comment, I live in Britain where we take "socialist" education and healthcare as a matter of course. We managed to set up the NHS right after we'd left the second world war, a war we'd been fighting for a lot of time pretty much on our own. We were heavily in debt to the US (in fact we've only just finished paying off our WWII debts) Our infrastructure had been bombed heavily, we did not have enough housing, food was still rationed and in short supply. And yet we managed to afford to create our welfare state where healthcare was, and still is, free on point of demand, a unemployment benefit sceme so that anyone who is looking for work is still able to meet their bills, social housing for those who cannot afford their own home (not as good as it used to be), education for all which is paid for by the government.

If Britain could afford all that while on the verge of bankruptsy and have manage to maintain it for 60 years surely a richer country such as the US should be able to do the same.

This Isn't A Debate about Sex Ed - Here Is My Proof

Gena Haskett — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 07:24:52 -0500

Really, it is not. I'm not disrespecting your point of view. I try very hard not to say things I cannot prove. I can prove you or any other parent has the right and the option to pull your child out of CA Sex Ed classes. This is from the CA Dept. of Education's Frequently Asked Questions about HIV and Sex Ed:

******************

http://www.cde.ca.gov/ls/he/se/parentnotice.asp

http://www.cde.ca.gov/ls/he/se/faq.asp

15. Do parents and/or guardians need to be informed if their child is to receive sex education or HIV/STD instruction?

Yes. The law recognizes that while parents and guardians support the teaching of medically accurate, comprehensive sex education in schools, they have the ultimate responsibility for teaching their children about human sexuality; they may choose to withdraw their children from this instruction.

EC sections 51937 and 51938 explain that parents or guardians must be notified (passive consent) by the school at the beginning of the school year about planned comprehensive sexual health education and HIV/AIDS prevention education, be given an opportunity to review materials, and be given the opportunity to request in writing that their child not participate in the instruction.

In addition, to facilitate the collection of data needed by researchers to evaluate the effectiveness of sex education and other teen pregnancy prevention efforts, the law has modified the parental consent procedures governing student assessments. This law permits schools to administer anonymous, voluntary, confidential, age-appropriate surveys or questionnaires in which students are asked about their health risk behavior, including sexual activities and attitudes. Parents must be notified of any planned assessments, be given the opportunity to review the assessments and, in grades seven through twelve, and be given the opportunity to request in writing that their children not participate. Prior to seventh grade, parents must give their active consent in order for their child to participate.

These parental notification and consent policies apply only to sexual health education, HIV/AIDS prevention education, and related assessments.

***************

Do with it as you will. I'm kinda sorry I'm telling you this because I do think you ought to hear other ideas and perspectives that you may or may not agree with but you seem so ready to have a fight.

I am not. I believe in the exchange of opinions and points of view.

Gena - Out On The Stoop

I Will Find the Link...

audreyh68 — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 23:54:36 -0500

Gena, I will find the link to the ongoing discussion in CA schools about how you can NOT opt your child out of sexual ortientation classes. They are classes designed to introduce GRADE SCHOOLERS to issues regarding homosexuality, etc. Second and Third graders who have little, if any, comprehension of intimate human relationships to begin with, are now being taught the subtle intricacies of same-sex relationships. I live in one of the most liberal states in the union and we don't even "go there." It boggles the mind that this is NOT left up to the parents. BOGGLES THE MIND.

My mom is an attorney down there (CA) and my dad a Sheriff and they are the ones who brought it to my attention. Having a brother who is in a long-term gay relationship, these sorts of issues get brought up all the time in our family and even he agrees that this sort of education is best left up to parents and not educators, most especially NOT grade-school educators. My mom has represented two families in cases involving not being able to opt children out of certain sex ed classes and as a result, those children were given failing grades because they were not present for more than 65% of those classes.

Where I live, we can not opt our children out of Sex Ed classes, only days when certain things are to be discussed and depending on what exactly that ciriculum is covering, I may or may not remove Gaby from school that day - when the time comes, just as I did with my 19 year old twins and my 16 year old son. My husband and I want to be the ones, in the context and setting that are appropriate, to teach her about these things and discuss them as a family...the way it should be. I vehemently oppose my tax money going to some of the material and discussions our children are being spoon fed in the public school system.

Sex ed, as it is taught now, in this country, doesn't work. The numbers prove it. We have similar age of first sexual intercourse as countries such as the Netherlands and England, yet they have far lower incidences of STD's and teen pregnancy than we do. Even with that fact shoved under our noses, its still the parents, and not the schools that need to be the ones doing the educating.

Another issue that makes me see red when it comes to public education is the fact that my tax dollars are SUPPOSED to be going towards the education of my children NOT the indoctrination (which I said earlier) of my children. Another example of this is all of the volunteer programs that are going to be started throughout our public school systems. Volunteering is a wonderful thing and the impetus for that should be from ones own willingness to help his fellow human beings...not because they risk failing a class/grade because they aren't signed up for a service project. If you want to draw a parralell between public education and socialism, that right there absolutely smacks of it! When you force someone into volunteering or service and make it mandatory it takes away from the entire experience. I wish I could recall the name of the legislation that passed earlier this year, but in short, this is what it does. We're paying for this. If I'm going to pay for this, I damned well better get to vote on it and I didn't get that. Rest assured I will raise hell if any educator or school administrator tries to tell me that if Gaby doesn't volunteer, she won't pass a class. I want her to serve her fellow man because it's the RIGHT thing to do, not because someone is telling her she MUST do it, or else!

We have as of yet to decide whether or not we're going to put Gaby (our youngest who is three) into the public education system or try and swing a private education for her. If she does go into the public system, you can bet I will be standing there reviewing everything she's learning and being an active particpant in her education and not just sitting on the sidelines. I want her educated in the issues that matter - and while it's cliche, it still holds a great deal of value...the Three R's. Those are things that will get her the furthest in life. Other things regarding morals based issues need to be handed back over to families, where it belongs.

Audrey at Barking Mad!

Contributing editor at New England Mamas

It Was An Intentional Kumbaya Decision

Gena Haskett — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 19:56:32 -0500

Much of the division in this country has come down to who is more American, who it upholding the rights and responsibilities of the founders and who is not as American as the other.

I had the opportunity to pick up both copies of the Constitution at a national library convention. Except for the color of the cover and the information relating specifically to both organizations, the Constitution is the same.

I could have snagged a copy from the Hoover Institute as well. I got the distinct impression I should not approach the table. The ACLU and the Cato Institute welcomed me and there was a pleasant information exchange. I visit both organizations websites from time to time to make sure I understand various points of view.

I suspect that citizens have more items that are in common than those that current separate us. I wanted everyone who so chose to read the post. If seeing the letters ACLU and Cato caused folks to check it out, so much the better.

If I got a few more to read the Constitution, double score.

I can only speak for my local CA school district. There is a form that parents can request to opt their child out of sex education classes. I have seen this form so I'm know that it is very specific; you can opt out of any sex ed class or classes that with a topic you do not want your child exposed to.

This might be a district specific. If you feel that strongly I would suggest, if you have not done so, to contact the district administrative offices or visit the school districts website.

I don't know you so how can I label you as anything? You seem to be concerned about your child's education. There are other parents that wish to opt out for a variety of reasons.

I wish sex education could have been left at home. The fact remains that too many parents slacked on their duty or did not have the ability to talk to their children about sex.

If it was just the coupling maybe we could make the case that parental privacy and instruction should have been maintained.

But sex education is more than coupling, isn't it. Otherwise why did we spend all that money on abstinence only education? Why do we want to prevent teen pregnancies? I could go on but hey, not every parent step up to the duty. The information needs to be transmitted. Totally, from Abstinance to Safety, in my opinion.

You don't have to like it. But you will have to deal with your child being exposed to sexuality outside of your home and school. Prepare them as best you can.

The initial battle about having public education was about indeed about the expansion of government into areas that had not been considered by the Founding Fathers. There were vested interests that did not want to lose profits, child labor or provide services to girl children, the poor, non-white or immigrant classes of students.

There is a continuous struggle to find the proper balance between what citizens want, what is needed and how to preserve and advance the country forward.

Oh yeah, how to pay for it. Because whether you do or don't there will always be a cost.

Gena - Out On The Stoop

A Couple of Questions

audreyh68 — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 19:09:06 -0500

I haven't had time to scan through all of the comments before mine, so forgive me if this has been asked, but why did you feel it was neccessary to mention where you obtained your copy of the Constitution from? For some reason that statement struck me as a bit unusual and perhaps unneccesary.

My other comment about our public education system in general, and this is my own observation tinged with a very heavy opinion, is that I do not want to pay for the public education system to indoctrinate my children on matters of sexual persuasion, sexual education, etc. I should be able to opt my own child OUT of those programs yet I am unable to. As a homeowner who pays some of the highest property taxes in the nation, this irks me to no end.

I'm willing to step up and make sure (and yes I know, some parents aren't) and teach my children tolerance and teach them about responsible sexual behavior. It's not the "state's" responsibility to do that. Furthermore, I know for a fact that in CA you can NOT opt your child out of these programs.

And before you go and label me as homophobic, I can assure you that's not the case. The fact is, these are personal matters, that until the last three-four decades or so, have been left to parents to teach and discuss with their children. And that's the way it should be. Being someone who believes in marriage equality, I know for a fact there are others who don't support it and don't want their children taught that it's correct for whatever reasons they believe. It's not my place, as an educator, to override parental guidance. I mean, if I were an educator. However, my opinion stands...I'm not paying for my child, or others to be indoctrinated (and YES, some of what's being taught in PUBLIC school is indeed indoctrination!)...educated, yes. Anything else? No. Parent's need to step up to the plate and guide their children. Too much has been left to the education system in the last 25 years...issues and ideals that are not the realm of our public educators.

I think calling our society anything remotely socialistic due to the fact that our taxes and levees go towards infrastrcuture creation/maintenance/support, education, etc is misleading at best.

I think it's also a severe judgement call to infer that parents who aren't homeschooling their children aren't raising them. To infer that is to go back more than 150 years and accuse generations of parents of the same.

I just took a few minutes to read a couple of the comments above mine and I think Jen sums up my feelings rather succinctly...

"Public education also needs reform, giving children back to their
families, reducing class sizes so teachers have time to work with each
child, bringing back programs that reach children of various interests."

I only wish I could have articulated my feelings in the same manner.

Audrey at Barking Mad!

Contributing Editor at New England Mamas

I agree with you that children need to be fed

LucindaA — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 15:23:43 -0500

And I am not opposed to the programs that have been set in place. I think they are very important. I'm simply sharing what I have observed.

Teachers are now required to do so much more. Report child abuse, drug abuse, depression or suicidal tendencies, etc. And not on a voluntary level but on the -lose-your-job-if-you-don't-do it level.

Counseling groups, drug rehab programs, etc. are all being done through the school. After school programs to keep kids out of trouble because families are not taking care of it.

I'm not questioning the value of these programs. I'm simply pointing out that they go beyond the scope of education but are required by schools to provide.

Thank you for an excellent

SocalMom — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 14:42:30 -0500

Thank you for an excellent post - and alas, there are plenty of people who still do not think it is in their interest to pay for public education.

I understand that the point of this post was about education, but someone compared the estimated cost of universal health care to the cost of educating our children, and I feel I need to point out that the $1 trillion figure is a projection over TEN years, not the annual cost. It is still a lot of money -- but one-tenth of what that person was suggesting.

This article is genius

siditty — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 07:42:31 -0500

I have been saying to the opponents of healthcare that if they don't believe in "socialism" they shouldn't partake in our public schools, our roads, their local city's waste and water services, their public libraries, police, fire, and a host of other services used. They also need to attend private colleges and would never even think about community college or a state college or university. My parents for YEARS paid for me and my brother to have a private school education, while continuing to pay taxes for services they don't use. Me and my husband up until recently have been childless, but we pay a lot in property taxes and a big chunk of that money is allocated to schools. We don't complain, even if we aren't using it, because I want the children in my community to thrive, because in reality, these kids are who are going to be running things when I get older and I want them to be as smart as possible, as they literally control our future.

The current perception is that the lazy and poor will exploit the "healthcare" if it is socialized, what folks don't realize is that the poor and elderly are already covered by Medicaid and Medicare, it is the middle class and working poor who are without decent insurance.

In terms of people who feel they put their children in public school to get a bigger house or car, you aren't thinking about the single working parents or the working poor who aren't trying to get a bigger car or house, but rather keep a roof over their head. My mother taught in an inner city school for years, where there were kids who lived in homeless shelters, she had one child whose family lived in U-Haul truck. It isn't uncommon for a child to come to school for the sole purpose of so they can at least get two decent meals a day, because they might be all they have to eat. In terms of homeschooling, there are many cons to that whole concept as you have your wonderful homeschooling concepts and then you have others that are less than desired. For example our neighbors homeschool, their mother is homeschooling them to ensure their faith isn't questioned in school. The woman is high school drop out and the kids don't like math, so they don't study it. To me that is alarming. I'm not saying public education is perfect, but it far exceeds what some homeschoolers are receiving at this point in time. I know homeschoolers with mothers with Master's degrees who do a much better job than our local public schools as well. So I am not saying homeschooling is always bad, it isn't.

In terms of the "three Rs" they are still being taught in schools, but to prepare a child for today's world, that isn't enough. They need to learn science, they need to learn technology. They need more than the "three Rs" to be prepared for jobs and college.

We have to wonder why we would fight to protect children's education, but we wouldn't fight to ensure they get proper medical care. Some families go without health insurance because their jobs don't provide it, or if they do, they can't afford it, so we care the kids can read, but we don't care when they get sick, where is the rationale in that?

For those worried about those getting taxed for making more money, we get taxed pretty heavily in my family, but I realize that the tax rate still is NO WHERE close to the tax rate during the Reagan Administration and I refuse to think that it is horrible that my tax dollars go to help others and myself. I refuse to think that people are so inclined to be lazy, they will all avoid working hard and further their education to pay taxes.

I keep hearing this myth about insurance companies not being able to compete across state lines. Insurance companies manage to compete all the time with each other, they just don't choose to. Insurance companies have to be licensed or authorized to offer insurance in different states, and most are. CIGNA is available literally everywhere, so is United Healthcare, these companies do not exist in one state, and never have. The blue crosses of the world, even though they act as separate entities, they work together, trust me, I have inside knowledge of how they work, and I use them for my own insurance. That is a myth perpetuated to make it seem insurance has been limited to explain why healthcare costs are out of control.

All in all we need to wonder why we feel the need to comodify human life and let insurance companies control who gets treatment and who doesn't when one falls sick. We need to determine if we truly are against socialism.

I totally understand your

Leighbra — Sun, 30 Aug 2009 18:37:27 -0500

I totally understand your passion, but don't understand implying that parents who aren't homeschoooling their children aren't 'raising' them. I know so many super involved parents with children in traditional school settings. I was raising my children just as much before we started homeschooling last year.

I think maybe Gena was also talking about single-parent families not being able to homeschool. It's one thing for a 2 parent house to make the sacrifices to homeschool, but a totally different ball game for a single parent. I've known (online) a couple moms that make it work, but it is not an easy road by any means. One was homeschooling before her husband passed away and wanted to keep things as stable for her children as possible. There's only so much scrimping and saving a family can do with one parent, and both families rely heavily on outside support (including Social Security and state assistance).

ECE and ECPrevention is SUCH

Leighbra — Sun, 30 Aug 2009 18:20:20 -0500

ECE and ECPrevention is SUCH a valuable resource. Diagnosing things like speech, hearing, vision and nutritional problems as early as possible will literally change the entire course that a child is on educationally.

Across our state line into Oregon, one comminity's combination of migrant/American Indian children that were totally slipping through the cracks was heartbreaking. WIC and a good HeadStart program came in and the change was immediate. The community would still be where it was, without that state funding. You're gonna tell a child that no, you can't have dinner, because that's socialist?

Think of the great things kids could do in kindergarten, if they all showed up with even basic letter/number recognition and had been exposed to hand/eye coordination skills like using scissors or writing their names!

I Like Your Teacher Resource for Early Ed

Gena Haskett — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 13:59:48 -0500

I think you are on to something about providing a collection of ECE materials for teachers and parents. There are librarians who are doing this but to combine it with your ECE training gives a different perspective.

And, yes ECE is vital, home based or school based to help children make the most of there learning capacity.

I'll check out NAEYC, thanks for the heads. up.

Gena - Out On The Stoop

I believe...

TeacherLibrary — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 12:57:43 -0500

a good Early Childhood Education is the best prevention program to High School drop outs...

Have you ever heard of NAEYC

(My) Ms Amber's Portfolio: http://www.msamber08.blogspot.com (simple statements about education)