Dating the Atheist Male

Sounds like this guy needs to grow up a little. I grew up an evangelical Christian, became an Atheist at 25, told my parents, got shunned for it, met my wife, and now we're happy. I understand the fear involved in telling your parents, but honestly your guy needs to get over it and tell them.

Bottom line, not all atheist males are the same, just like not all "spiritual but not religious" people are the same, just like not all Christians are the same. We're not all hunkered down, hiding the fact from our parents and avoiding the holidays. On that note, I find it really strange he doesn't recognize that Christmas is largely secularized. In fact, the only thing that really makes Christmas special are the secular/pagan elements of it. There's no reason any atheist should object to celebrating it.

Dear Liz,

From one spiritual but not religious girl to another, try to date someone with similar beliefs and leave the "poopy" atheists alone.  :)  Seriously,  I just got out of 2 year relationship with the first atheist I have ever dated and I know I won't date another.  It will be one of the first conversations I have with future men that I date.  I did not realize how many ways being an atheist can affect your life (as in being poopy).  Trusting in God and the universe's abundance is definitely a wonderful thing.   Not having faithruns over into so many areas of your life.  Denying god is just one of the many forms of denial that I believe atheists do.  Without faith in something greater than yourself is really just sad and complete denial.  I mean how much synchronicity have you had in your life?  

I hope A LOT and I do Bless you and all of your endeavors.  Just try to date a guy with similar beliefs and see how it turns out.  It may work out and it may not but life is short so why waste it with someone that thinks something you want to do and appreciate is poopy?

That is all I have to say about that!  

Liz, I was wondering if the boys you are picking are just strongly tilted to the T-J axis of their Myers Briggs typologies. TRy dating a F-P atheist and I think you'll find it a whole different experience. The F part will give you a more considerate lover, and the J will make him less strident with his opinions.

OK... for a start, I'd like to thank Liz for linking to my site.  Thanks, Liz!

 Just out of the gate, I'd like to give a little background about myself.  For the record, I'm an atheist.  Have been since around the age of eight.  Came out to my parents at the age of 14. I have been exploring the god/no-god landscape most of my life.  I married a quasi-agnostic deist at the age of 25, separated at the age of 34, and divorced her at the age of 37.  Since then, I have "seriously dated" a "recovering Catholic" and two atheists. I turn 40 next month.  I recently endured the death of my father.  I own my own home, and live with a dog and 2 ferrets.  I have no children, and don't want any children. I am currently in a relationship.  I don't know what any of this proves (if anything) but it may give you some context for the rest of my remarks.

 Next I'd like to clarify my position on the difference between being "non-religious" and atheist.  A person can believe in one or more "gods", immortal souls, angels, faeries, afterlives, and so on,  without subscribing to ritualized community worship, tithing, prostration and other practices common to virtually all religions.   Such a person could correctly refer to him- or herself as "non-religious" or "spiritual but not religious".  

 If someone holds no belief in gods and the attendant "spiritual" accessories, then that person is more than likely an atheist of some stripe or another.  If such a person engaged in the rituals of one or more religions, then that person would be a hypocrite.

 There are strong atheists, and there are weak atheists.  the distinction may seem subtle and esoteric.  A strong atheist holds the opinion that there are no gods (or "believes" there are no gods).  This is a positive affirmation.  A weak atheist does not believe in gods.  This is not a positive affirmation.

 I won't get into the arguments supporting the atheist position, here.  Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens and  Richard Dawkins (among a great many others) have stated them far more eloquently than I can, and I don't necessarily think this is the forum for that discussion (feel free to hop on over to my atheism v. religion blog (http://www.ursuspacificus.net/blog/?cat=5), read and comment if you like).

 Next:  Christmas.  Yes, Christmas started as a pagan celebration of the winter solstice, and got hi-jacked by the early Christians.  Whether you celebrate the solstice, or the birth of Jesus of Nazareth (who by some accounts was/is the incarnation of the spirit of Yaweh, born of a virgin and messiah to the Jews), it's a religious celebration.  If you celebrate the commercialized, sanitized "Holiday Season", then you're still engaging in a religious ritual, except the god or goddess has been supplanted by the almighty Dollar.  In any case, Christmas is a religious holiday, and I don't celebrate it.  I don't put up a tree.  I don't decorate.  I don't exchange gifts.  To do so would be hipocritical, don't you think?

 On to saying, "bless you"... Well, this is just one of a long list of words, phrases and idioms I've expurgated from my vocabulary.  Firstly, the practice of saying, "bless you," when someone sneezes (by some accounts I've heard) arose during the time of the black plague, when a sneeze may have meant the grim reaper was right on your heels.  Another take on it I've heard is that some people believed, a long time ago, that when a person sneezes, his or her soul would exit their body along with the aeorsol spray of saliva and mucus, and the"bless you" was a quick prayer, urging the god du jour to return the soul to its body.  In any case, saying "bless you" when someone sneezes is a knee-jerk cultural tic which serves no real purpose to someone who doesn't believe in gods or souls.  Further, it's a reminder to atheists, like myself, that religious influence is practically everywhere, and of the cultural bias favoring religion.

 Next:  Poopyness.  If you feel comforted by calling me a poopyhead, because I don't celebrate Christmas, well... so be it.  I'm not averse to exchanging gifts, but I don't feel the cultural obligation to stand in line for hours with all the other culturally obligated folks at a certain time of the year.  I think that if you're going to be a generous person, you should be generous year-round, not just when the Marines are loitering outside Target seeking toys for tots.  To me, Christmas, as it is celebrated in America today, is a manifestation of the excesses, loneliness, inadequacy, and greed of American culture, cloaked in sanctimonious selflessness.

 In the end, whether you're a Christian or a Pagan or an atheist or anything else, you're either true to yourself, or you're not.  If you're true to yourself, and dating people who aren't you're bound to be disappointed.  If you're not true to yourself, you don't know the difference when others are lying to you, because you're constantly lying to yourself.

 I'm not entirely sure, but the impression I get, Liz, is that the bulk of the atheists you've dated have not been the sort who arrived at their atheism through reason, but through rebellion, nonconformity, or by way of some unfortunate circumstance that caused their faith to be shaken.   The atheists you've described are not the atheists I'd be likely to associate with.

 Might I also suggest that the atheists you're most likely to connect with (being that you bill yourself as "spiritual but not religious") are the ones who are not really "into it" but like to wear the hat because they think it makes them look cool.

This is a painful topic at times.  I have a man in my life who I dated briefly.  We care for each other a great deal and he won't date me because he thinks I am too religious.  When I tried to cast it aside, he would let me.  He also said he felt like he was taking advantage of the choir girl because of my level of innocence and inexperience.  The more I get to know him, though, the more I like him.  It's difficult.

www.SavvySingleChristian.blogspot.com ( http://www.savvysinglechristian.blogspot.com/ )

Catch the Christian Schadenfreude

Loving it!

Vered - I was thinking the other day that even with all the crap women so often have to deal with it would actually be so much worse to need to feel superior to someone to love them. How horrible.

Susan - Yeah, the arrogance is so annoying when it's really just so much lack of respect for other people's opinions and beliefs.

Judith & April - Hit 'em with humor; works almost every time.

April - Thank you!

Insolentmuse - Well, a little pagan, too. :)

Denni - Years ago when I was little I knew some Jewish people in a less Jewish area that did a Christmas tree, but in South Florida I'd say most of my Jewish friends just celebrated Hanukkah.

Nordette & Jessice - Yeah, agnosticisms always been the thing for me. Acknowledging that we don't know everything and that's OK.

Christy - Thank you. Sometimes, only "poopy" will do.

AstronomersWife - Your husband sounds great. And I know that so many people have struggles during wedding planning - It can be horribly tough. Here's a random thought - if it's bothering you, maybe at an upcoming anniversary you can renew your vows with a more secular ceremony that involves readings and songs that are meaningful to the two of you?

Thanks, everyone! :)

Liz Rizzo ( http://blogher.org/blog/liz-rizzo )

I blog at Everyday Goddess ( http://everydaygoddess.typepad.com/ ).

Hi Kazari,

I laughed when I read your comment - Years and years ago my now ex-fiance and I went back and forth on the Bless You thing, because I didn't say it. We ultimately decided that "bless" wasn't Christian, but could be meant more generally as good wishes.

I've said it ever since! :)

Liz Rizzo ( http://blogher.org/blog/liz-rizzo )

I blog at Everyday Goddess ( http://everydaygoddess.typepad.com/ ).

My husband's a scientist, but he has a deep, almost religious appreciation of the universe.  Still, he thinks that attributing anything unexplained or mysterious to God is an intellectual cop-out.  And he has no patience with creationists, and his reaction to fanatics of any stripe--Christian, Muslim, extreme Zionist, etc.--who try to hold communities or nations hostage to their religious agendas--is generally pretty profanity-laden.

Other than that, he's pretty respectful of others' religious beliefs.  I was a main line Protestant and regular church-goer when we met almost two decades ago, and he's never given me a hard time about it.  And Christmas is a big deal at our house.  We have all our own traditions, including listening to the yearly BBC broadcast of the Christmas Eve service of carols and Scripture at King's College Chapel, Cambridge.  He appreciates that the sacred can be beautiful.

I think if he were arrogant and supercilious about religious beliefs--mine or anyone else's--i'd have ditched him a long time ago.  As it happens, I really regret now making him marry me in a church just to keep my mother happy.  He was an incredibly good sport about it at the time, but I still feel bad for having been so young and cowardly and unable to stand up to my parents.

Your comment about agnosticism being the most logical position (for any religion, including Christianity) is very insightful. I couldn't agree with you more.

In Between Words

http://jessicaschafer.wordpress.com

i simply cannot wait to tell someone to get off their "high poopy horse." 

fantastic!

He used to get narky when I said 'bless you' when he sneezed.  really!

He's mellowed somewhat.  But we celebrate Christmas (it's all about family for us)  and his parents certainly know about him being a non-believer.  We got married in church, because I wanted to, and his mum was very happy about that. 

But one of the reasons I love him is he's never poopy about anything!  Well, occasionally astrology.  But if I said 'hey, we're going to a solstice celebration' or a japanese candle festival or a weekend retreat at a buddhist monastery - he'd say cool, can i come?

and he's finally accepted people blessing him.

I am a Christian, but I also know my Christian history and Christmas is not a "Christian" holiday in totality.  The church absorbed the solstice celebration or adopted facets of it, including its date, as the church became as much a political as spiritual organism, seeking converts in big numbers.  That doesn't mean I hate Christmas.  It's can be a fun time.

My only issue with men who think being athiest is logical is that I believe the most logical position is neither atheism nor belief.  It's being agnostic, a doubter.  You can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God, at least not yet ( http://www.catherine-morgan.com/2008/09/13/underst... ).  I own that faith is irrational, but my belief does not make me an irrational female.  I've had life experiences that inspire faith and challenge it.  How I choose to live and as long as I don't hurt others, is my business, and that's a freedom I believe all of us should enjoy.

BTW, we do Christmans in my household, but it's not the outrageous big deal it is with some families.  No manger scenes on my lawn.  It's just a time to enjoy and I told my children early on that it's more a pagan holiday that Christians adopted to keep folks happy when the big festival was afoot.  Some Christians who know the truth about Christmas choose not to celebrate it.  That's okay too.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).  Most recent BlogHer Post at time of this comment, "Hurricane Season: Peace after Revolution ( http://www.blogher.com/hurricane-season-peace-afte... )."

( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette )

...Gets even more more interesting among secular Jews. Trust me on that one.

------

"I don't care what is written about me so long as it isn't true."

http://www.nectardesign.com

LOL, I thought I was the only one who did this!  My line is actually "I was raised Catholic".  But close enough :-D

April

www.AprilsLittleFamily.blogspot.com ( http://www.AprilsLittleFamily.blogspot.com )

 Same here - with a coupe of Universalists thrown in. When I don't want to come out of the Pagan closet with certain people - okay, nosy people who ask my religion, I tell them I am a recovering Catholic.  That usually ends the conversation.

Remember, life is a journey, not a destination. Here's to Living Well! www.themadgoddess.blogspot.com ( http://www.themadgoddess.blogspot.com/ ) & www.lwbms.blogspot.com ( http://www.lwbms.blogspot.com/ )

 Once upon a time being Republican had nothing to do with religion

 Good god indeed!  I grow so weary of reminding zealots that our country was founded on, among other things, religious freedom.  Almost as weary as I am at having faith based opinions shoved down my throat at the hands of elected government officials.

 Truly, my sincere gratitude for your comments.

Remember, life is a journey, not a destination. Here's to Living Well! www.themadgoddess.blogspot.com ( http://www.themadgoddess.blogspot.com/ ) & www.lwbms.blogspot.com ( http://www.lwbms.blogspot.com/ )

I don't think there is even an argument here; she's strictly speaking about the secular version of Christmas. Not Pagan, not Christian, but the Santa Slingin', Carollin', Tree Decorating Christmas, which people from all belief systems celebrate.

Sometimes the simple explanation is the proper one.

I just fell in love with you.

April

www.AprilsLittleFamily.blogspot.com ( http://www.AprilsLittleFamily.blogspot.com )

"I am more comfortable with honesty in a dating relationship (and elsewhere) than pretense." Of course, I wouldn't want anyone to fake it! That's definitely an excellent point.

We will have to agree to disagree about "Christmas." It's my belief that in America we celebrate Christmas, whether as a Christian holiday or not. I can mark the actual solstice, but like it or not, here in America the December holiday is now called Christmas and celebrated on Dec. 25th. Santa doesn't come for Samhain, nor does he have anything to do with Christianity.

So I think Christmas can offer a multitude of deep and meaningful messages for us all. (Not to say that Santa is the deep and meaningful bit! But, you know, spirit of giving and all that.)

Cheers,

Liz Rizzo ( http://blogher.org/blog/liz-rizzo )

I blog at Everyday Goddess ( http://everydaygoddess.typepad.com/ ).

Just to clarify ...I did not :
1. suggest that you date someone with my belief set. That would be foolish on both sides.

2. ask you to give up your secularized version of what for me and for many is a meaningful and deeply important religious holiday.

Goodness, I am not above enjoying a Winter Solstice concert by Paul Winter at St John the Divine in Manhattan m'self.

I merely suggested that I am more comfortable with honesty in a dating relationship (and elsewhere) than pretence.

Just to get the history bit straight...Christians did not come around and convert something called "Christmas" to our own ends. While it may not be the (unknown) precise day of the birth of Christ, and was in fact placed at a time in the calendar with other , non-Christian traditions --- it is, as its name suggests, at its very least, a Christian-originated holiday. There are certainly plenty of other holidays around that date that are clearly pagan-originated, for example Samhain, Yule or the Solstice itself. I do not celebrate your holidays, but I do not disrespect them, either.

~~ Contributing Editor, Mata H. also blogs right along at Time's Fool ( http://timesfool.blogspot.com )

Obviously, I could never date someone that believes as you do. Finding these things out about someone are an important part of dating, and kind of my point.

I firmly believe in the celebration of the solstice and the secular pagan roots of the holiday that became Christmas when the church sought to convert pagans. I respect your right to celebrate a Christian Christmas, if that's what it means to you. We will have to agree to disagree.

But for me, to say "secularizing Christmas" speaks to ignoring the very real roots of the holiday. I'm not secularizing it; Christians added the religious component. When Christians say "Jesus is the reason for the season," then to someone like me, they are devaluing me and my history and my traditions.

And when atheists say that Christmas is a Christian holiday that they want no part of, I feel exactly the same way. There is a secular Christmas in America, and there is a pagan Christmas in America. It's not your Christmas, but it is mine.

And I'm not giving it up.

Liz Rizzo ( http://blogher.org/blog/liz-rizzo )

I blog at Everyday Goddess ( http://everydaygoddess.typepad.com/ ).

Once upon a time being Republican had nothing to do with religion. Good god (snarky pun intended) our founding fathers would be rolling in their graves if they could catch a glance at what has become of American politics. Heh.

April

www.AprilsLittleFamily.blogspot.com ( http://www.AprilsLittleFamily.blogspot.com )

In your statement about " that wonderful secular American and pagan holiday, Christmas. " you castigate an atheist man for not just secularizing it and pretending with you as you sing carols, etc. You tell him to start "getting off your high poopy horse.

Liz, there are many of us in the world who do not think of Christmas as either secular or American, let alone pagan. For many of us it is a holy occasion, one which is not centered on pretense, but on faith. Christmas matters to us in that category beyond the trappings of the secular, and its meaning is deeper, much deeper.

As for me, I'd rather date an honest athiest who said "thanks, but no thanks" (and I have) rather than one who devalued my family's and faith's traditions.

~~ Contributing Editor, Mata H. also blogs right along at Time's Fool ( http://timesfool.blogspot.com )

Great GREAT post, I so enjoyed it, and you painted such an exact portrait of many atheist men I've known! Bill's after-post insights are spot-on, and make me wonder if some 'atheism' isn't rooted in spiritual belief/nonbelief, but is just a PC label for Assholism.  

 I'm devoutly Roman Catholic, and I've gotten that 'don't worry sweetie, I'm just smarter than you and your religious friends' thing. Ok, but I'm a Mensan, so I don't think my religion is based in being dumb. I don't think ANYBODY'S belief system makes them superior or inferior to anyone else. And if you're a boyfriend who didn't get me a Christmas present, don't be walking through my door in January unless you want to meet Mr. Frying Pan.

Stopping to think...almost all of my friends are either Catholic or Pagan. But, we all respect each other, whatever the practice is, and that's the bottom line. If some of us are nonbelievers or nonpracticers, they're not yapping on about why that makes them better than the rest of us, and maybe that's why we're still friends.

 Thank you Liz! And thanks Bill for some laughs there!

Susan

stonyriverfarm.blogspot.com ( http://stonyriverfarm.blogspot.com/ )

www.carersgroup.com ( http://www.carersgroup.com/ ) 

I just love that one. 

I will never understand why so many men need to feel superior to women. All that garbage about "men are 100% logical while women are 100% emotional", so of course they are "better."

You are very lucky that your parents gave up on trying to change you.  

---

I blog at MomGrind ( http://momgrind.com/ )

I manage my kids' activities at UpToUs ( http://www.uptous.com/ )

April - LOL about voting Republican. And hooray for Christmas trees!

Judith - Wait, I want a hat! ;)

Zoe - Yeah, most guys out here have parents they only see once or twice a year - usually at Christmas. And I really can't understand what they're dealing with, since my parents gave up trying to understand/change me years ago.

Liz Rizzo ( http://blogher.org/blog/liz-rizzo )

I blog at Everyday Goddess ( http://everydaygoddess.typepad.com/ ).

I have dated more than one atheist guy who used his beliefs as an excuse for his lack of effort towards the relationship and respect for me and others in his life.

I will say that many of the best gifts don't cost a lot of money - if any. That's part of making a holiday noncommercial. :)

Liz Rizzo ( http://blogher.org/blog/liz-rizzo )

I blog at Everyday Goddess ( http://everydaygoddess.typepad.com/ ).

This athesist woman is out of the "atheist closet" to her uber catholic partents, but they are always trying to pull me back into the fold.  It's a battle over my soul for the last 18 years, I tell ya.  So, I can see why the athesist male might want to avoid having to deal with that with his parents. And if they don't live in near proximity, it is probably much easier to stay in the "atheist closet." 

It's kind of funny, I'd so much rather tell people that I'm gay than that I'm an atheist. Kinda weird, I know.  But people they do love their religion.   

 April,

Republicans that aren't Christian, science disavowing, fanatics?  JUST KIDDING.  But seriously, it is nice to hear a voice from that quarter.

And Bill - such honesty.  Also refreshing.  One might even say cool. At least if one were as old as I am.

Liz, great topic.  And as for Pagan practice and attending a church service now and then . . .  If candles, incense and transforming  bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus isn't a magic ritual, then I'll eat my witch's hat.

Remember, life is a journey, not a destination. Here's to Living Well! www.themadgoddess.blogspot.com ( http://www.themadgoddess.blogspot.com/ ) & www.lwbms.blogspot.com ( http://www.lwbms.blogspot.com/ )

What you're saying makes a lot of sense.  If a guy doesn't believe in anything, he's going to be interested in "smooth sailing".  Telling the truth to his parents is of no value to him.  What IS valuable is that they don't get on his case every time he contacts them, because now they feel they need to convince him out of his current way of being.

Same thing with holidays.  Not believing in them isn't the problem.  He doesn't want to come out of his pocket to buy you stuff "for no reason".  It's a typical 'trick' to pick a fight with a girlfriend before Christmas and get back together with her after the holiday, thus bypassing the necessity of spending money on her because the television told you it was that time of the year.  So, again, this is smooth sailing.  He doesn't waste his money and he feels good about himself not participating in rituals that he feels are garbage.

He's not going to like astrology because that would mean that something other than him had some control over his life.  He'd like to believe that it's all his fault that he works at the sock factory for minimum wage.  He'd HATE to believe that because of astrology, he was predisposed to not be very smart or successful.

Also, I see why you would get a lot of dates like this, but hadn't considered it before.  If a guy's religious and intends on living his life with and potentially having kids with someone who believes as he does, that's going to immediately restrict his dating options.  A Jewish friend of mine got dumped by her Jewish boyfriend because she wasn't devout enough.  You would think he would have known that before he started having sex with her, but... you know... first things first! :D

~ Bill ( http://billcammack.com )
I blog at billcammack.com ( http://billcammack.com )

Or, at least there was one. I snagged him; sorry. Admittedly, I got so very lucky. My husband is atheist, his parents are atheist (yay!) and he totally gets Christmas (although, oddly, his parents are poopy about our Christmas tree).

Now, if only he'd come clean to his parents that we vote Republican. *sigh*

April

www.AprilsLittleFamily.blogspot.com ( http://www.AprilsLittleFamily.blogspot.com )