Bio
Rita Arens authors Surrender, Dorothy and Surrender, Dorothy: Reviews. She is BlogHer.com's senior editor.  Her parenting anthology and BlogHer'...
 
 
 
 

What’s Hot on BlogHer.com

Does Everybody Really Hate Mommy?

  • Share This Post
  • submit
  • 31
  • Sparkle (
    )
     

Lynn Harris of Salon lit up the blogosphere last week with her article "Everybody Hates Mommy." In it, she writes particularly of white, urban, upper-class mommies and the unique venom they engender in the childless, a venom she attributes to the feminine, to the mommy:

But I still say that when it comes to mother bashing, there's more going on. Something deeper, more venomous, even more timeless. The level of vitriol is so high, its target so clear and consistent.

Does everyone really hate women? Does everyone really hate mommy?

Harris' article vacillated between agreeing that some mommies are really annoying and expressing shock that anyone would vilify them. In it, she strives to put her finger on really what is so annoying about mommies. In Harris' view, it's the space they take up, especially with their damn strollers.

Yes, the lowly stroller. It has come to represent all that is thoughtless and space-hogging in America. It seems the stroller, and by association, the mommy, is taking up just a little too much room on America's streets, in her malls, and in her headspace. The strollers are too large for city sidewalks, just as minvans and SUVs are too large for its streets and its parking lots. This hogging of space in and of itself represents a lack of concern for the space others need in order to live their lives. The stroller is an inanimate manifestation of parents who bring their undisciplined children out of the nursery and into the public sphere, not at playgrounds or library reading rooms but in coffee shops and workplaces and the grocery store. And these mommies? Not only will they encroach, but they will do it without mercy.

Sadie Stein of Jezebel writes:

This is really it in a nutshell: the sense some of these parents give is that they'll have it all, on their terms. There will be no concessions made: instead, the world will concede.

And ... I get it. I know, I'm a mommy and family contributing editor at BlogHer, a mommyblogger at Surrender, Dorothy. I should so totally be taking the mommy side here, right? But, no. While I love me some mommy, I think it's possible to be an ass whether or not you have kids.

And: I think this discussion is bringing out the worst in all of us.

I was disconcerted by the level of vitriol I saw in the comments on Harris' article on both sides of the stroller. I've written for a variety of comment-ready online periodicals, and I know that if you're going to put an argument out there, you're going to attract some haters. But this -- THIS! Was beyond what I've seen before. In the space of time it took me to start this post, eat dinner, and come back to it, the comments shot up from 152 to 470 on Harris'post. Here's a sampling:

We don't need mothers to reproduce to shore up our dying populations. Having children these days is something that highly uncreative women do to fill their lives. PERIOD.

And while you're letting that one rattle around in your head, try this one on for size:

if I had a dollar for every time I've had to deal with some entitlement-minded mommy or the utterly undisciplined fruit of her womb, I could likely afford to build my own rocket ship and leave this sad planet and it's breeding-to-their-own-extinction primary species.

But lest you think I take the side of the mommies, they are just as bizarre with their comments:

It's not the mothers being too demanding, it's the whiny, boorish self centered, self righteous, non-breeders being upset that mothers and children are upsetting their vision of a hip rugrat-free urban landscape.

Well, then. Aren't we all pleased with ourselves?

Before I was a mommy, I was childless. (This is the adjective I prefer for myself.) I swear the entire time I was a teenager, I thought my own mother was an alien from another planet. (I've since changed my mind.)

After I became a mommy, I was schooled in how annoying mommies can be by my child-free sister and an entire department full of child-free co-workers. Initially, oy, it burned. But after a few years on the mommy job, I realized that it's not about whether or not you have kids, it's about whether or not you consider if what you're doing, what you're going on about, the space you're taking up -- whether it's interesting or enlightening

  • 31
  • Sparkle (
    )
     

Comments

Post comment as twitter logo facebook logo
Sort: Newest | Oldest
Gina Carroll 5 pts

I don't think this debate is really about the kids, bless them. It's about mothers and our intolerance for people who use motherhood as a weapon. This debate makes me sad and frustrated because it goes hand in hand with all of the other ways we mistreat and judge each other-- like the ridiculous working mom vs. stay at home mom tension. This is a debate that is utterly misplaced because most women work and they work becasue they have to. And many of those with out jobs want and need them.

Likewise, much of what we do as mothers with our children in public, we must do. We cannot keep them holed- up at home while we go about our daily tasks. We mothers really should be the last to take part in this growing intolerance for children and this long history of blaming mom. We all know better. We know that at some point, because of what we are dealing with in a given moment, we are that mom who has imposed herself and her brood on others. So we really can give the other mom in her moment some slack. And we can put habitually obnoxious moms in the obnoxious person catagory and leave it at that.

( http://www.proactiveblackparenting.blogspot.com/ )

Think Act: Proactive Black Parenting ( http://www.proactiveblackparenting.blogspot.com )

KatieBeez 5 pts

This is the world.  And as a community, hopefully, we see that we are all "in it" together.  Short, tall, young, old. 

Leighbra 5 pts

Hee! Megan, you are serious about parenting! Read your last sentence in a mobster tone ;)

Leighbra 5 pts

Thank you Amber, I think this is part of the perspective I was missing from the comments...

Kids have to go out in public, it's a fact of life. If they start acting up, we deal with it. It happens sometimes. If they don't go out in public, they never learn how to BE in public.

I am sick to death of entitlement, and I see it happen on both side of the childbearing line. We've all got our heads up our ..... right now, in one way or another. We're hurried, we're distracted and we're ALL rude to someone at some point, just because we're so inside of our own heads.

The comment above:

if I had a dollar for every time I've had to deal with some entitlement-minded mommy or the utterly undisciplined fruit of her womb, I could likely afford to build my own rocket ship and leave this sad planet and it's breeding-to-their-own-extinction primary species.

made me laugh, because to me, that poster is yet another "utterly undisciplined fruit of someone's womb" and I think that should get me a dollar, dammit! lol

Not only do I think that people forget that they were once kids, I think that a lot of mothers forget that their children were once young as well. No good can come from all the harsh criticism, it's really not even helpful. If a woman is in your way with her stroller, and that irritates you, maybe you didn't even notice the fact that you dropped the door in her face not 30 seconds before.

We all have to learn to LET IT GO, and spend all that energy we're projecting outward as anger on thinking about how WE are acting and treating people.

Leighbra 5 pts

I just wish many of the parents out there were able to stand behind their child-raising choices and make better judgement calls. Does it happen? Not very often.

99% of the time, I think we see what we WANT to see, and the rest doesn't even enter our peripheral vision.

Meaning, I think, no, I KNOW that many parents DO stand behind their choices and make better/good/decent/acceptable judgement calls. For every rude child that sticks out in your mind, you've totally missed the 50 others that quietly bussle on by with their parents. That's the rub, you don't even notice them because they're quiet and not entering your field of vision.

Secondly, on your point about not taking the kids out in public, that's the very reason I do take my children out in public. How will they learn to behave around people of all sorts without being in all sorts of situations?

My children eat in 5-star restaurants right along next to me, and have since they were infants. I give them the tools they need to function in the setting, and have had countless people pat me on the shoulder as they're leaving and comment on how nicely behaved the kids are. My son has scored us more free desserts with his polite charm than I can count. They CAN eat at these restaurants because I have taught them HOW. This is something passed down to me by my parents.

Point being, there are tons and tons of parents out there making perfectly acceptable choices in regards to child-rearing, and even the ones you are choosing to dwell on here may have children that are delightful every other time they're out. We ALL have bad days.

(Edit: I realize that my comment here might add fuel to the fire because it might be read as smug, or bragging, but it's not meant to be taken that way. A lot of hard work has gone into being able to take my children places, and that work is constant. I am quick to remove them from the restaurant if there's a problem, and when we're all under control again, we come back. I'm trying, in a clumbsy way, so point out that our perspective is a big share of our response to people's actions. I *am* proud of my children, but don't think they are perfect or can do no wrong, then again, none of us are.)

Megan Smith 5 pts

I didn't think of that until I read the comment later and said I missed the opportunity for a great joke!

I would have added: "They need to be taken out.  And not in a Godfather kind of way--in a leaving the restaurant kind of way." 

Must have been a Freudian slip.  :-)

Megan
BlogHer Contributing Editor, TV/Online Video ( http://www.blogher.com/blog/megan-smith )

My Personal Entertainment Blog: Megan's Minute ( http://www.megansminute.com/ )

Twitter:@MeganSmith ( http://twitter.com/MeganSmith/ )

phdinparenting 5 pts

Rita you said:

What I'm reacting to mostly is the passion with which each side is defending itself, as though it is possible for one side to be right and the other wrong.

When we are talking about appropriate and inappropriate behaviour I can have a calm and pleasant discussion with someone who I don't agree with. When the conversation turns to "you do not have the right...." the passion comes out...in droves.

PhD in Parenting - http://phdinparenting.com ( http://phdinparenting.com/ )

phdinparenting 5 pts

You said:

you do not have the right to take your children in public until they can display appropriate behavior

Actually I do have that right. My kids have that right. With all due respect, just because "nothing peeves you more..." does not take away that right.

Nothing peeves me more than when I am paying for a good meal at a restaurant and:

- The person at the table next to us orders fish

- The woman at the table next to us has an annoying laugh

- The man at the table next to us is expressing political opinions that I find offensive

- etc....

Just because something peeves you, doesn't mean that person has less right to be in that space than you do. My kids love the art gallery and benefit tremendously from being exposed to real art at such a young age (not just "kiddie" art). Sure, they may occaisionally exclaim their joy at something they have seen a bit too loudly and I remind them to be quiet, but I'm not going to stay home until I'm 100% sure they won't do something inappropriate. My dad likes to have our kids come along for his birthday dinner. He doesn't want to eat at Chuck-E-Cheese, so my kids go along to the fancy restaurant and they/we do our best to get them to behave, but just like there is no guarantee that the woman with the annoying laugh won't end up sitting next to you, there is no guarantee that my kids behaviour will be perfect every time.

But they do have the right to be there, whether you are paying for a babysitter or not.

PhD in Parenting - http://phdinparenting.com ( http://phdinparenting.com/ )

AmberS 5 pts

I think that being rude crosses the have kids or don't line. Just lilke it crosses age and size and class barriers. No matter our position, though, we need to remember that kids are people, too, and they have a right to be in public. I am not an idiot, I take my kids to primarily kid-friendly spaces. But even in those spaces, and sometimes even when they're behaving themselves, I've had people take umbrage at their presence.

I totally understand that kids are inconvenient, I get that. But you know what? I need to live my life. I need to buy groceries and run errands and so on. I will do my best to be considerate, and keep my kids from getting in your way. Sometimes, in spite of my best efforts I won't succeed. And that has to be OK. The fact is, that we were all children once, getting in someone's way or behaving inappropriately. So I think it behooves us to cut the next round of kids a little slack.

~ Amber

www.strocel.com ( http://www.strocel.com )

feMOMhist 5 pts

<!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} h3 {mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; mso-outline-level:3; font-size:13.5pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} @page ( http://twitter.com/page ) Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} -->

I think Suebob made an excellent point in The stakes are high ( http://www.blogher.com/does-everybody-really-hate-... ).  Motherhood has always been high stakes, and goodness knows blaming mother has a LONG history, but we are at even more points of transition in gender roles right not (highest rate of childless ever in the U.S., Clinton/Palin presidential runs just to name two big ones).  Still beyond the academic feminist analysis, here’s the thing, and I say this as the parent of two fairly rowdy kids, you have the right to make decisions as a parent about how you will treat your child and where/when/how to discipline, but you do not have the right to take your children in public until they can display appropriate behavior.  A mall food court is a far reach from a nice restaurant.  A kiddie museum is not the same as an art gallery. Nothing peeves me more than when I am paying for a babysitter but I am disturbed by someone else’s child.   

InkAndPixelClub 5 pts

I agree with the idea that a lot of this has to do with courtesy and is much bigger than just parents and non-parents.  There are a lot of cases where we have strongly held beliefs that sometimes are so strongly held that we see any dissenting opinion as an insult.  Religion is a good example.  I know that the majority of people can feel secure in their own religious views while still being OK with the fact that not everyone shares them, but their are some who see the mere aknolwedgement of any other faith than their own as an affront to their beliefs.  As in the mommy debate, they tend to get more attention because they yell the loudest.  So how do we have firmly held convinctions - about faith, having children, politics, or whatever - and not let it get under our skin when other people don't agree?

Sara

www.inkandpixelclub.com ( http://www.inkandpixelclub.com )

Megan Smith 5 pts

Blondie Chicago has made an excellent point.  Part of this has to do with city living.  I live and work in New York City and I try to be as patient and helpful as possible if a mom is trying to get her stroller out of the door at Starbucks or if she needs a hand getting a stroller down the subway steps.

However, I have also been treated to the moms who take up the whole Starbucks entrance with their double stroller while talking on the cellphone and ignoring their kid kicking the heck out of the sandwiches in the display case.  Or the four women walking side by side on a crowded sidewalk, with four strollers, as the rest of the pedestrians have to walk in the street to get by.

The stroller is kind of a city representative of all that's rude and obnoxious about commuting and working in the city.  There are many childless people who are also rude.  To me they fall in the same category.  It's a matter of at least trying to be considerate.

And in the city, all space is at a premium so that's why the stroller and whoever's pushing it--often not the mom at all, but a nanny--get a big part of the blame.  As far as restaurants, if the kid is under control, I don't have any problem with them being there, no matter what kind of restaurant it is, but if they're not, they need to be taken out.

Megan
BlogHer Contributing Editor, TV/Online Video ( http://www.blogher.com/blog/megan-smith )

My Personal Entertainment Blog: Megan's Minute ( http://www.megansminute.com/ )

My Review Blog:  Meg's Rad Reviews ( http://www.megsradreviews.com )

Twitter:@MeganSmith ( http://twitter.com/MeganSmith/ )

Rita Arens 7 pts

I agree with all the commenters who are calling for a rise in civility and an attempt to stop criticizing others, at least out loud. I have to say I don't think there's any sort of moral no-no to criticizing mothers in this culture or they wouldn't be portrayed in the same neurotic light as all other characters in our television, film and literature. We wouldn't see the media criticizing the female politicians for their parenting skills (or lack thereof). My point is that parents and nonparents are both critical and parents and nonparents are both annoying, at times. People are people whether or not they procreate.

What I'm reacting to mostly is the passion with which each side is defending itself, as though it is possible for one side to be right and the other wrong.

Rita Arens writes at Surrender Dorothy ( http://surrenderdorothy.typepad.com ) and BlogHer and is the editor of Sleep is for the Weak ( http://tinyurl.com/9pg62e ).

Bridgingjones 5 pts

...probably your kids are much better behaved in public places than the 30 year old jackass, or the "entiteled parent" progenie...

ahahha, thank you for making me laugh!

phdinparenting 5 pts

I think everyone criticizes others in their head.

But while I do that, I also recognize that the people I am criticizing in many cases have just as much right to be in that public space as I do. While I may be annoyed by them, maybe they are annoyed by me. If everyone who could possible annoy someone else stayed home all the time, then public spaces would be pretty empty.

Some examples of non-child related public annoyances (that I ACCEPT because I know that they have as much right to be there as I do, even if they annoy me):

- Incessant throat clearing

- Talking loudly (especially if voicing opinions that I find offensive)

- Showing body parts I do not want to see

- Public displays of affection that go a bit too far

- Ordering fish at a restaurant (the smell makes me want to puke)

- Walking slowly

- Wearing an ipod or similar device that is audible to me

...and I'll stop now before I start offending people.

I'm not saying people have to be happy about my child making noise at a restaurant, but please know that I'm doing a lot more to try to control and manage that then the average 30 year old jackass mouthing off about the topic of the day is doing to control himself.

(oh and the annoying person doing the incessant throat clearing that I mentioned...it is often me)

PhD in Parenting - http://phdinparenting.com ( http://phdinparenting.com/ )

Bridgingjones 5 pts

I applaud your capability not to pass judgement, but because of the way I am wired the only thing I can control is whether I criticize out loud or just in my head. I understand my limitations, and while I wish I could lay off the criticism I just can't. That doesn't make me intollerant- I accept other people's choices, but that doesn't mean I approve all of them!

I think I have a different viewpoint on how to raise a kid, but I don't have any, so I really just shut up for the most part. What I ask you as a parent, though, is to respect the fact that I want to eat in peace just as much as you do, and believe me, I understand that caregiving makes you have the short end of the stick. Just like I expect the lady in the security line to give herself a head start if it takes 15 minutes to take off her shoe, I expect parents to make good judgement on whether their children can handle relating to other people in public places. So, I am only suggesting limiting outings to parents because it's them we are talking about. It's not that I don't understand your challenges, I just wish many of the parents out there were able to stand behind their child-raising choices and make better judgement calls. Does it happen? Not very often. Do I hate parents? No. Do I criticize them inside my head? Often. Do I voice my disapproval out loud? Very rarely, if ever. Why? Beacuse it's easier to tell the lady in line to get a grip than it is to tell a parent.

phdinparenting 5 pts

Rather than trying to figure out why it isn't okay to criticize a mother, maybe we should be asking why we think it is okay to criticize other people so frequently for little things. I think we should all embrace the diversity of the human experience, loosen up a bit, and save our criticism for the places it is truly warranted (significant wrongdoing of one kind or another).

PhD in Parenting - http://phdinparenting.com ( http://phdinparenting.com/ )

Pamela Jeanne 5 pts

You raise some excellent points here.

I, too, have observed that it's A-okay to criticize non-moms (we're selfish, unnatural, etc.), but by and large moms are off-limits, a "moral no-no" as you say. It would be interesting to do a study to look further into why "criticizing a mother carries with it a stigma that we feel we need to justify" ....

Pamela

http://www.SilentSorority.com

phdinparenting 5 pts

In reading your comment, what struck me is that you started out by explaining all the different types of people that you criticize. However, the only ones you suggested should limit their outings so that they are not imposed on other people are the mothers and children.

I run into lots of people every day who could make me want to pull my hair out. For the most part, they have as much right to be in public as I do. I could list all of the things that bug me that people do in public that I think are worse than most children, but it won't make me happier to do so. Instead, I've tried to learn to relax and not let it bother me so much.

PhD in Parenting - http://phdinparenting.com ( http://phdinparenting.com/ )

Bridgingjones 5 pts

<!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font ( http://twitter.com/font )-face {font-family:Times; panose-1:2 0 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:3 0 0 0 1 0;} @font ( http://twitter.com/font )-face {font-family:Cambria; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:3 0 0 0 1 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Cambria; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} p {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family:Times; mso-fareast-font-family:Cambria; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Times; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page ( http://twitter.com/page ) Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} -->

Well, this is a touchy topic, and a very interesting one. As a non-mother, I never really realized this tendency to criticize mothers, but I think there is something more than envy, intolerance and rudeness.

For one, mothers cannot be criticized. As a person, I stand in the way of being criticized every day, but if you're a mother you are somehow infallible and criticizing you is a moral no-no. I find that mildly annoying. I do not think mothers are criticized more than other people, or "hated" more, it's just that criticizing a mother carries with it a stigma that we feel we need to justify, aka this post on why we do it. I am skeptical of my co-worker's choice of a husband, of my friend's fixation with cellulite, and of my friend's lack of skills in disciplining her kids. Do I take it on mothers more than on others? No. However, there needs to be a better reason for me to criticize a mother from a social acceptance point of view. Is that logical? Raise your hand if you've never had a strong feeling toward someone without her carrying a stroller. You can catch me frowning upon the 60 years old with new breast implants, the person who cuts in front of the line, the old lady at the security line taking forever to take her shoes off. We are short-tempered with other people's interference with our plans, no matter whether they are parents or not.

The second issue in my opinion is that we moved from a child raising philosophy centered on discipline to one centered around nurturing, forgetting (in my opinion!) that neither one is the holy grail, and that children need both affection and boundaries to be able to function properly in society. That has created an entire generation of out-of-control children that should not be imposed on other people. I understand that each one of us will adopt different child raising techniques, but if your child is not socially skilled to be in an environment where other people are present without making them want to pull their hair out, then you're better off limiting your outings. If you choose not to teach them the concept of boundaries and respect for other people (and yes, that means by disciplining them), then you also choose to limit their interactions with the "outside world". If you want both, and cannot stand the criticism, it seems you might want it all, and as you should very well know by now, nobody can get it all.

BlondieChicago 5 pts

It's totally interesting to me that now that I live in a small, farming community, I am no longer highly irritated by what I perceived to be the "entitled" mommies of the city (Chicago). I'm starting to think that perhaps the distain is actually CONNECTED to city life. Living in cities is hard, especially when Junior runs you over on the sidewalk with his Big Wheel while Mom is on her cell phone. I don't experience this kind of space-encroaching madness in my small town. And the mothers here don't complete with each other for fancy strollers or space at fancy dinner tables. Do you think it might simply be a social thing based on wealth (on display via giant strollers/SUVs)? Jealousy that Junior's daycare costs more than your rent? Hmmm. Interesting...

Also, as your sister, I can tell you that you have changed. At the beginning, you didn't even ask about my life, but only talked about the baby and her and you and how hard it all was. I think that also contributed to my "I don't care already!" phase. But now that you are steaming along in mommyhood, your eyes have focused outward to the world again and I don't even notice when you Talk Mommy to me. I actually enjoy it. We have both grown and changed and morphed our relationship into something different. I hope all women can learn to grow WITH each other, too.

I think the commentor above hit it on the head--rudeness is just plain rudeness.

lauriewrites 5 pts

Only a fool or a very misguided person would prefer that you physically discipline your child or verbally abuse them in public. I am more uncomfortable with and upset by a parent yelling than a child crying or doing normal kid things. What I do see sometimes and am confounded by is kids allowed to run buck wild with no limits - none. I saw it a lot when I worked in book and music retail, stuff like two little girls playing jump rope with the cord to the headphones in the music department while the father laughed, kids left to trash the kids department while their parents shopped, that sort of thing. Recently I was nearly knocked over by a boy doing a cartwheel in the library checkout area. The library. His father thought it was awesome. My father would not have thought so, actually. I still can't believe it happened. 

I can tell the difference between ignorance and lack of consideration for others and a person trying hard to do the right thing with a developing child.

As a college teacher and counselor I see a strange microcosm of the effects of parenting, education and everything else that forms a human being in the long term. I honestly feel sometimes that the (very basic) limits I'm setting in my classroom are news to my students. They are very upset with me, often, for my insistence on allowing others to speak uninterrupted, on not using their phones and iPods at will, etc. I have a number of e-mails in which they address me more like a peer than a teacher. Yo? No. I may wear jeans to class but I am still grading you. That said, I'm in professional meetings with people who act worse than some of my 18-year-olds. Maybe we're resetting ourselves as a society. I am more irritated by people yapping on their cell phones in crowded spaces than rowdy kids.

I see many, many parents setting limits for their kids, acknowledging unfortunate behavior and demonstrating respect for others at the same time. It may not be easy - parenting is a difficult task. And it's my way as a human being to extend respect and a reasonable level of compassion as well. (I do, I think. At least I try, and I'm very kid-friendly. Kind of like a Labrador Retriever. ;)) What gets to people are the extremes like I mentioned. The father in the bookstore chewed me out because I asked him NICELY to have his girls stop destroying my equipment. Even if I'd been a parent at the time, I'd have had a problem with what they were doing. But I have to believe that he was the exception to the rule. Like this post illustrates, it's about basic common sense and civility in human behavior. I believe that the vast majority of parents are trying very hard to impart this to their kids. I just like it when they don't think the worst of me as a person without kids who occasionally has what may be a viable opinion about how we can all co-exist in a good, productive way. (And a lot of times? I'm totally on the kids' side, if we're picking.)

Laurie

LaurieWrites ( http://lauriewrites.typepad.com )

Photos on Flickr ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/rubyshoes )

Morgan Shanahan 6 pts

Having just become a Mom myself, (although it seems not quite a "Mommy" yet based on the parameters set forth - we're still in the at-home-hibernation phase of parenting) I have to admit this debate is a little terrifying - while I'm sitting at home trying to reconcile my own ambitions and projects , and the fact that I have this new little life depending on me completely, who isn't necessarily interested in whether or not I get to finish the pitch I'm working on, or try out that new recipe for rustic bread pudding.

A few weeks ago I took my first outing with my [then] 5 week old infant.   I was accompanied by my sister, her two girls (2 and 4) and my Mom, who trust me, would be the first person to wag a finger in your face over an unruly tot.   My Mom was a rule-with-an-iron-fist Mommy, we never had a hair out of place if she could help it (she usually couldn't - contrary to commenters beliefs, my sister and I, both procreators, actually relish in our creativity) while my sister is a much more go-with-the-flow parent who's only concern is keeping her children healthy, happy, and collecting knowledge as they go.   And me?   Well, I'm not sure what kind of parent I'll be yet.  

Anyway - on the same trip to the mall where someone literally sneezed right on my newborn in the height of flu season (since we're talking about lack of consideration) we three versions of "Mom" sat down to lunch with three little ones, one *gasp* in a stroller next to our table, and two seated in the booth.   My four year old niece is very quiet, and therefore, goes over very well with the childless.   My two year old neice however, is a bit of a hellbeast, albeit an adorable hell beast, but she's the kind of kid who will stand up and watch strangers eat in the next booth while my sister quietly coaxes her to "sit down and face the table."   But let's be honest here - she isn't hurting anyone.   She's not even speaking to them, or touching them.   She's two.   She just wants to see what's going on at the next table.   And on this particular occaision, there were three very fancy lunching ladies who could not have been more put out or disgusted by our mere presence in the restaurant.    They stared at us the entire meal, heaving dissapproving sighs and shooting eye daggers at my little niece as she gave them her best grin, and quite frankly, I've never had a less comfortable lunch EVER.   My Mom was so mortified, she barely ate.   My Sister was so appauled by their being appauled she stopped encouraging her daughter to leave them alone and decided to let it ride.  My very first outing as a parent, and I spent it feeling self conscious for bringing my child into Bloomingdales on a weekday and attempting to enjoy a grilled cheese sandwich.    I haven't even commited the crime yet, and I'm already serving the sentence.

the818.com

Rita Arens 7 pts

Your comments are so thoughtful and courteous. If only the whole world were BlogHer.

Rita Arens writes at Surrender Dorothy ( http://surrenderdorothy.typepad.com/ ) and BlogHer and is the editor of Sleep is for the Weak ( http://tinyurl.com/9pg62e ).

phdinparenting 5 pts

I'm not a stroller mom, so I won't speak to that issue.

However, with regards to children "misbehaving" in public and bothering others as they do so, I think people should realize that a lot of parents are trying to parent for the long-term and not just for that moment.

If my child is being annoying in a restaurant, the quickest way to get it to stop may be to spank, yell, bribe or threaten my child. However, if I am trying to raise a human being who does not hit, yell, bribe and threaten people to get his own way, then I need to model that.

So many people talk about how kids get away with anything or feel entitled to everything. That very well may be the case with some families. But not with all. Just because I insist on treating my child like a human being in public (and therefore not hitting, yelling, bribing or threatening if I can help it), doesn't mean that I don't discipline and don't give my child any limits. Just because I do not feel the need to humiliate or mistreat my child in front of you just because my child inconvenienced you, does not mean that I am a bad parent or that my child is a brat.

Annie - PhD in Parenting - http://phdinparenting.com ( http://phdinparenting.com/ )

melaniek 5 pts

I don't understand why women are harder on other women, but when I was in the corporate world, I much preferred to work with men.  When I decided to be a stay-at-home mom, I was told that I was slapping feminism in the face (though I argue choice is the ultimate goal of feminism is it not?)  and even heard comments that I was wasting my college education (seriously when is education EVER a waste).  Its all so exhausting if you ask me,  I mean can we give each other a break, can we stop judging for ONE FLIPPING MINUTE.   We like to look at a parent with a child who we see as out of control, and immediately we put the blame on the parent, yet we know NOTHING of the child, parent or the situation.  

My daughter was born with a hemangioma "birthmark" on her forehead, if I had a dollar for every dirty look, for every wrong assumption that people made (ie that I had either harmed or let harm come to my child) I would have quite the little nest egg.  I learned a tiny bit what it might feel like to have a child with some sort of issue, perhaps its not obvious to the naked eye, but people, especially women are so ready to think the absolute worst of you.  Why can't we all just agree that ultimately MOST women and men, with child(ren) or without are trying to do the best they can?

phdinparenting 5 pts

"The truth is a rude person will just become a rude parent.  They do not magically get manners when they get kids. "

YES, YES, YES.

PhD in Parenting - http://phdinparenting.com ( http://phdinparenting.com/ )

suebob 7 pts

I think the stakes on parenthood have been raised incredibly high by several factors: 1) People can control their fertility, so the few children they have get a bigger dose of parental energy 2) The economy forces people to really, really consider whether to have children or how many to have - and most people have a very hard time affording more than two or three and 3) The incredibly difficult choices people have to make about whether to have a parent stay home with the kid(s) or not.

Where parenthood was expected and almost universal in the past, now it is seen as a choice, and therefore, if you aren't doing it right (in the eyes of those judging you), you must be a real loser.

If you choose to sacrifice a second income and stay home, that makes parenthood all the more important. After all, if you make that sacrifice and you aren't doing everything possible to enrich your child's every moment and you aren't just loving every bit of it, what are you doing? Why don't you just go to work, then?

Meanwhile, parents who are at work and who have to drop their kids off at daycare every day are determined to prove that they, too, are great parents. They try to keep up with the stay-at-home people and the stay-at-homes up the ante and soon parenthood becomes this incredibly competitive and complex thing.

As a childless person, I write this out of sympathy, not disgust. I see how hard parents are working and how frantic they are to make it all so great for kids, and I am amazed. I wish they could give themselves a break and not feel so guilty about the choices they make. The kids are all right.

Pamela Jeanne 5 pts

I hope posts like "Everybody Hates Mommy" prompts a look in the mirror. My own mother finds today's momminess over the top. The most exteme moms put her off by calling attention to themselves as if they're the first generation ever "to mom."  (is that a verb yet? it may well become one).

To be fair, not all moms prompt such a viceral response, but there are some who have earned the wrath. Clearly there's something afoot. A week or so before this post ran, I wrote this piece, which also generated lots of comments on Open Salon:

45 Years After Rossi, Mommies Propagate Prejudice ( http://coming2terms.com/2009/11/08/45-years-after-... )

Michelle, Lisse, Thank you for your honesty. My two favorite lines in your comments:

"It seems this is all really about courtesy and coexisting, things that most people seem to have forgotten since elementary school."

"I did not come out to eat with your kid keep him at your table not under mine not at my chair not standing in the booth picking in my hair."

Couldn't agree more...

Pamela Tsigdinos

http://www.SilentSorority.com

Southerngirl 5 pts

I think it is all about looking at the world from the other person's point of veiw.  I LOVE my children but that does not mean you have to.  I take my children to restaurants with the intention of eating with them that does not mean the guy at the table next to me did.  Same with your kid.  I did not come out to eat with your kid keep him at your table not under mine not at my chair not standing in the booth picking in my hair.  The strollers I don't get why people are so put off by.  I would rather deal with you and the stroller than to have the kid hanging from the racks in stores.  Although I have never really been a stroller mommie I understand that they have their uses. The truth is a rude person will just become a rude parent.  They do not magically get manners when they get kids.  People who are not rude will probally be the same as parents.  Children who are not taught that they are entitled to everything will become entitled adults and that likely will not change when they become parents.  They will spawn mini entitled brats.  Its a vicious cycle.

Michelle

( http://www.mommycan.blogspot.com/ )

Lisse 5 pts

and coexisting, things that most people seem to have forgotten since elementary school.

The profound sense of entitlement that people on "both sides of the stroller" seem to have is probably the greatest source of tension.

No, I probably shouldn't get special treatment because I'm a Mom, but I don't want to be relegated to cheesey, family-style restaurants with crappy food, either.  Let me have a decent meal without sneering at me and I promise not to let my kids wander the room unattended (truthfully though, I haven't really seen anybody allowing that since I was a child).

I have often wished that the mothers around me would talk about more than just their children and be more involved with the larger world. I think that's why I've enjoyed the blogging community so much. Sure, there's too much talk of bodily functions, but there's sooo much more that women are doing, thinking, and writing about, that oddly, in this virtual world we are more likely to experience the multiple dimensions of any given mom. 

- Lisse

@ ( http://homeintheworld.typepad.com/ ) Home in the World: International Adoption and Other Travels