Liza - Thanks for reading and commenting, and offering those links - to your writing as well. I discovered you a couple of days ago but have been so overwhelmed that I have nearly 250 tabs open in Firefox and I STILL think I'm going to find a way to write about them all - even though they're slowing my computer down horrifically!

Another aspect anyone who seriously wants to consider how to end the violence, permanently, should think about is what the two more or less cohesive populations have done to self-organize. We talk about a democracy being a government through which the vote is how you show what you support and don't. Now, I hav a lot of criticism for the coalition gov't style - it's way too unstable for my tastes. But the fact that Israel has not fallen apart completely, internally, over 60 years, with so many factions, is very telling about the strength of the country and society as a whole.

On the other hand, Fatah, Hamas and what other factions within the Palestinian population have achieved how much and when?  They seem, from where I'm sitting (so I AM in need of correction from those who know more - or have some good resources at hand), to be incapable of putting together ruling governments with multiple perspectives - because they welcome or want multiple perspectives. I see this as part of what Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia fight against as well - they recognize the lack of homogeneity and seek ways to keep their societies together without demanding allegiance to on single way of life. Iran, on the other hand, seeks to do the opposite.

Now, if there's to be any global influenceon that part of the world, it seems that we get back to this one state or two state solution question, but not only that, I wonder - how can Hamas, or PAlestinains, truly want one state when that one statecould very well be one that demands homogeneity in culture and religion? There is something very oxymoronic about democratically electing people into leadership who do not want to govern democratically.

And yet - if that's what people want...?

Clear as mud. :)

Stay safe there.

Jill Writes Like She Talks

Are not all that different in some ways from those of the Israelis and Palestinians. 

What is so important to never forget is that the macro problems the media and all of us are susceptible to being distracted by are mostly fabricated - the violence? It does not have to exist. It exists as a tactic, pure and simple, to shroud, give over for other equally or in this case more violent tactics.  But they all become blue smoke and mirrors that obscure what are, in fact, if we were to be honest, intractably different desires.  Sadly, it is those intractably different desires - one-state versus two-state - that cause me to get rather hopeless.

Jill Writes Like She Talks

(Jeff is a personal friend and wonderful Ohio-based blogger.)

I do recall that now, thanks for the reminder. 

What do you think, then, about this distinction re: how our cultures view martyrdom and the roll that plays both in strategy and resolution?

I think it is part of what makes the desires of Hamas or so-called Islamists (I'm still really uncomfortable with that word because I'm not 100% sure of its distinctions - I need to do more learning on that) so incompatible, at this stage, with any desires that differ from theirs because of what valuing martyrdom does to your "toolbox" of tactics.

I've been crying in the car all afternoon as I've been shlepping my kids. I am incredibly sad and angry as Israel's ground troops enter Gaza.

Jill lWrites Like She Talks

I think the way you state it is perfect, "The only solution seems to be a national policy which seperates Church
and state as well as a dramatic change in the hearts of the people
which allows for co-existence and tolerance."  But...part of why Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan do not support Hamas (nor does Fatah) is because of Hamas' support of inextricably tying state and religion.  Egypt et al prefer a more secular straddle and, in fact, don't we see how Turkey and other countries are struggling with this - Iraq and Iran for that matter.

I still think that the U.S. represents one of the better incarnations of what the separation of church and state look like, but we have many problems with it too.

Ok- someone needs to give me some HOPE!! :)

Jill Writes Like She Talks

You are of course right - there are leaders of many nations who rule in ways that violate the humanity of their own people.  

I also agree for the most part with your description of the intractable nature of the conflict we're discussing. In fact, it's why I ask for someone to spin this toward hope because frankly, it seems to me that radical Islam - or whatever the form of ideology it is that's being embraced by Hamas and possibly Gaza's residents & other Palestinians, has no room for compassion outside of...I'm not sure how large the swath of compassion goes.

I believe that the main restraint on Israel until now has been public opinion, compassion and the belief in itself as a democracy. But in fact it's that last that I most often fault Israel - it needs to develop the nationality of being Israeli - something it's been trying to do and has succeeded in part at - and not as a solely Jewish state - in order to pass muster for me as a democracy.

This is also why I'm scouring my sources for news of what's happening with the 1.7 million Israeli Arabs right now - because I believe that the level of support or disintegration we see in that population's identification with Israel will be very telling about the future.

JillWrites Like She Talks

This blog has a few notes about different Israeli Arab incidents -none in the area you mention - one or two at least in The Triangle but I think from yesterday and/or the day before - not 100% recalling which.

Now - the better off than Arabs thing - I can't offer an opinion on that - how could I.  What I've written, however, is based on what I heard directly from Israeli Arabs and Israeli Jews who work w/groups like Givat Haviva , and that is that they have said that they (the Israeli Arabs) would prefer to be in a democratic Israel than a Palestinian-run country. Now - if you want to debunk that, I can understand - there are several studies in the last 10 or so years that have come up with similar stats - all something like 65-95% from what I've seen.  Certainly a variation but still a very clear majority.

Again - I visited West Bartaa which is the Triangle and met the mayor his own words were that his son, who is in his 20s, identifies "100%" as an Israeli but works and seeks everyday, in life, to achieve parity with Israeli Jews - legally and on all fronts.  Those are the father's words - he is a man in his mid to late 50s I would say.

About that religious-secular thing - you are not kidding! That deserves an entire post of its own.  Having not been there for 23 years, I was in shock at just how the religious were in Jerusalem - it was really unsettling.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts - I hope you will write more, perhaps in your own entry? Hint hint.

JillWrites Like She Talks

For those interested (like me) in reading Laura's post about this, here it is (I think that's the right one!).

Also - I agree - they are not a barometer of public opinion for Israel.  I sense them to be a barometer, however, of the tension on nationality v. identity which is a critical dynamic in nation-building when you do not have a homogenous society.  Culturally, Arabs and Jews native to the area (from the Semitic countries as opposed to being in the Diaspora for generations) are not so different.  But the religion and the nationality - these complicate the allegiances.  So I am curious, interested in how that is holding, or not, for the Israeli Arabs.

Thanks again.

Jill Writes Like She Talks

Thank you for taking the time to comment and add those resources.

And of course it's so easy for someone like myself who is in a warm house, with plenty of food, doing mundane things like avoiding doing laundry while the world is literally being fought tooth and nail over there.

Without getting all and overly existential, it sometimes feels to me like God is just watching these two siblings continue to try and figure this out.  And God is not playing the parent role in terms of stepping in and saying you must share the one land you have because in this situation, there is nothing to go out and get so that each side can both have their own Tickle Me Elmo.

Would that it were that simple.

Jill Writes Like She Talks

Kim - I don't know much more than you do but I can give you a few sentiments on the group and the settlements.

Peace Now's website has this resource page up for the current conflict and here's an article about their current effort in Israel, from Associated Content. And here's their site about the settlements - but you are right - it doesn't seem to be updated with anything since late November. (I found that link through this site - Addicted to War - which is bit more left of me but appears to have a long and good list of resources.)

I know that Peace Now was involved in organizing some of the library kind of discussions that have been occurring in NEOhio in the last week - I would guess they're doing the same around the country.

Peace Now, from what I know of discussing its efforts with people in Israel and Conservative branch Jews here (as opposed to Reform or Orthodox, not as in liberal-conservative), is that it is considered somewhat fringe.  I personally don't think it's so fringe at all - it is not, let's say, fringe in the way Meir Kahane was fringe in the other direction, or Neturei Karta is absolutely fringe (and they are the fringe of the fringe on the far right, the Orthodox Jews who say that Israel should not exist at all - and shouldn't have become a nation - because the Messiah isn't here yet - it's a whole other thing!).

Anyway - I believe that we must have efforts like Peace Now - I don't think they are fringe to the point of being detrimental (i.e., inciting violent resistance - their names is after all Peace Now) - because they pound away at the misery caused across the board.  They humanize without exaggeration or hyperbole.  I have found what they offer in terms of information and approach to be reality-based - not an appeal to cultish religious ideals but rather more of a one planet, we have to share it kind of thing.

As for the settlements, I've always been against them. I do not believe in such provocation - at all - as a negotiator in any setting.  Provocation is to be used only at the most critical times and in the most restricted of settings with the most specific of goals and with parties who absolutely know one another (this is part of why I cannot hold Hamas or the Palestinians blameless for the cycle - no matter how much of everything else I agree with in regard to Israel's culpability - and I do hold the Israeli gov't culpable too).

What continues to baffle me, however, is the failure for anything positive to have transpired since the 2005 disengagement.  How long do we allow a population to blame for all the years before? Now - is it reasonable? Can all the history really be what has prevented Gazans from doing much since disengagement? Or has a lot gone on and we've not heard about the progress? I completely am open to that possibility because I have not gone looking on my own.

But that is really a digression.  I don't like the settlements, I don't like the attitude of the settlers, in general not all of course and I support dismantling some of the ones on the W. Bank.  I say some because there are some on the West Bank that in fact are so integrated with their Arab neighbors there that to pull them out would completely destabilize the economies, truly. Efrat is one such settlement and is one that I spent time visiting when I was in Israel in August.

So - as a general rule, I agree w/you and Peace Now re: the settlements.  But disengagement would still need to be done in a planful way - we are still talking about thousands of people and families - AND...although it shouldn't matter to Israel re: disengaging, as a foreign onlooker, I would really PREFER to know that Fatah has some specific, funded plans for what they will do with those areas once the Israelis are gone.

I hope that helps a little.

Thanks for asking. 

Jill Writes Like She Talks