How much is too much - what to tell and not tell

It seems that we all--including our children--have issues to deal with in our lives. Perhaps that "dealing" is the point of life itself. It wouldn't have mattered if we stayed in the marriage, or were widowed, or divorced later or earlier, or sick for years, or away in Iraq, our children would still have to step out of the fold and into their own cloth. My older daughter had a pretty idyllic childhod for many years. Her behavior is hers. How she took what she was given is hers to decide. And you never know what they experience in school or on the bus or on the walk to school. There are just so many variables that a divorce is just part of the mix for kids.

Nature or nurture. Their nature seems to determine what part of the nurture is accepted, and how it is transformed.

Laura (www.RebelliousThoughtsofaWoman.com ( http://www.rebelliousthoughtsofawoman.com/ ))

 I can see that the best thing is to stay true to yourself and not stoop to a lower level, how challenging the other party might be with their behaviour.

 In the end what you say and what you do are indeed th things that will speak for themselves eventually.

The problem is that the children have their own story about what has happened and as a father the ex has of course a different place in their lives that we cannot see as we are not in the children's shoes.

All I  decided to do was to get on with my life as best as I could,  not to focus on the guilt and the past and not wait for my children's approval either.
I made the decision and I owed it to everybody to make the most of my life from now on and show no regret.
That sometimes felt callous, as if I didn't mourn over the loss and upheaval I caused, my oldest daughter found it really hard to see me happy while she dwelt in her victimhood.
However whatever I did would not have made any difference to her feelings. I just was there for her, accepted her negative point of view about me, I didn't fight that or defended myself, but also didn't let her drag me down either.
It felt bad sometimes but I am so glad I was clear that I did make the right decision, I just have to accept that it takes time to have it all fall into a place where everybody is settled again.

Wilma Ham

www.wilmasblog.com ( http://www.wilmasblog.com/ )

I am determined to not let his behavior change how I act or react. That is, for me, what gives me strength: that his perverse behavior has neither changed who I am fundamentally not temporarily. Thanks so much for reliving some of your pain to help me keep my positive focus.

Laura (www.RebelliousThoughtsofaWoman.com ( http://www.rebelliousthoughtsofawwoman.com/ ))

Divorce sucks, and when you have children and one parent insists on acting like a child himself/herself, it just sucks even more. There's just no way around it.

When my first husband and I divorced, I simply could not fathom how we would keep it amicable because it was so awful at the beginning and we had a three year old daughter at the time.

But I have to say, we managed to do it but it wasn't easy, especially the first couple of years when our emotions were still raw. There were times when I almost bit my tongue in half to refrain from just screaming about the unfairness and unjustness of it all, and I'm sure he felt the same way.

Eleven years later, we've got a great relationship. But if you had asked me back then if I thought this day would ever come, I would have called you insane.

I don't know if this will eventually happen with you, if your ex will ever come to see how detrimental his actions will be ... I hope so, as I see how awful it can be when one or both parents insist on using their kids as sounding boards or bargaining tools. And if your ex continues to behave in this manner, you just have to find the strength to be the consistent one, the one who doesn't drop to his level, the one who will always be remembered as calm, cool, mature and a good parent. ANd know that it may be many years before your kids come to realize what a good example you set, but it will be worth the wait.

Andrea

The Creative Junkie

http://www.thecreativejunkie.com

As bad as the divorce has been (and my lawyer says that my ex is in a category by himself), it has done nothing but reinforce this move--for my daughters and me. If I hadn't finally stood up, they would have thought that I agreed to the marriage and how I was treated in it. That would have been worse, I think, than being exposed to the bitter battles.

Glad to hear that the tunnel has an end and that there is a light there. 

Laura, blogging at www.RebelliousThoughtsofaWoman.com ( http://www.rebelliousthoughtsofawoman.com/ ).

I know when I made the decision to get a divorce several years ago it was the most difficult, fearful and painful thing for me to do.  It was most painful because of the children they were very close to their father and were angry at me. Their father was not around very much after we separated  and they felt it was my fault. When I was divorced there were support groups so that we could share our fears and frustrations.  Today it's so healthy for you to learn from each other via this blog. Keep up the good work. 

Today me and my adult children are very close. It was a long and sometimes bumpy road.  I wouldn't change it for anything.  We are such good friends.

I teach, and I am always amazed at the things that some kids remember. They might not remember the homework assignment that I repeated five times, but if I say something harsh or unexpected, they remember. We are always on-stage with kids, our own and others', we are always an example. Makes you assess how you comport yourself and how you state things. Makes you want to be as good as you can be--always.

Laura (www.RebelliousThoughtsofaWoman.com ( http://www.rebelliousthoughtsofawoman.com/ ))

I think that is a very important statement.

No matter what the age of the child, they pay more attention to our actions and our words than we ever give them credit for.  They have ways of looking like they are ignoring us.  They practice starting about age 2 years old and perfect it somewhere in their tween years. 

I have a quote posted in my home:  "Our children are watching us live.  What we are and how we conduct ourselves speaks louder than anything we can say." 

They listen.  They watch.  They keep it all. 

Donna

PokaDotzPlayHouse.com ( http://pokadotzplayhouse.com/ )

I think the best any of us can do is lead by example.  An abuser will always be an abuser.  And if the ex is mean and nasty with you then they will be mean and nasty with their kids too when things don't go as they choose.  I have already seen this with my ex.

Last year my son decided to quit football, his dad was the coach.  His father told him he was fat and lazy and a quiter.  He went on and on and I just sat by and watched my son get crushed.  Then he hung up and looked at me and said, "what kind of a father would talk to his son that way?"  I am certain they know.  It's just that their dad is their dad and figuring out how to love someone and still see their faults and decide what is good and what is not takes time and maturity.

Both of my kids have been in and out of counseling since I told them about the divorce.  It gives them someone to talk to other than me.  They won't criticize him to me, but they will talk to their therapist about it.  And he asks them the types of questions that make them stop and think about each of us and the examples we are setting for them.

All we can do is lead by example and have faith that everything is always unfolding in God's perfect timing...and have patience.

Karen

 Yeah Laura, I like the molting idea.

And I feel that all I now can do is being great myself, I owe it to myself and them.
The great stuff is that it makes me feel good while doing the best thing I can.

I refuse to be in the victim seat, I did what I did and all I want now is living a life I can be proud of and then one day...who knows..... AND do you think it is in their genes, his family doesn"t sound too crash hot either :)

Wilma Ham

www.wilmasblog.com ( http://www.wilmasblog.com/ )

My parents have been married for 53 years, and his for 46 years. I'm hoping that they have been presented with enough good examples of how a husband and wife should interact that they know that this is not the only option.

I guess it's better that your daughter is taking her time and not rushing into a relationship without being properly prepared within herself. Maybe she's molting: shedding the bad feathers, preparing herself for her new protective layer.

Oh, and his family, which I knew for about 24 years, since I first landed in Israel, never even spoke to me after I filed for divorce. My parents have tried to be kind to him, but after last weekend, when my ex yelled at my father, they are done. My daughter heard that, how I hope it made her realize that he is not a person deserving of any respect.

Laura (www.RebelliousThoughtsofaWoman.com ( http://www.rebelliousthoughtsofawwoman.com/ )

 @Laura

It is interesting though. You never know who your children will copy.

My youngest who was always been the shy and quiet one, is now blossoming and talking to me BUT I am still not allowed to talk about her father. That is frustrating as I so want to correct her point of view on men.
She hasn't got a relationship, only 22 though and does not want one.
She knows however she has been bullied by both her older sister and her father and yet she is fearful of losing them somehow as her sister and father both use the threat of disowning anybody who disagrees.
The funny bit is , his family is also disowning me....so they not only learn it in their immediate family, it is in the extended family as well and in their genes perhaps?????

I don't know what the answer is......

Wilma Ham

www.wilmasblog.com ( http://www.wilmasblog.com/ )

The hardest thing for me to deal with was when my daughter, who has seen her father call be b* and stupid and ugly and a leech, say that she has more respect for him than for me. All I could think about at that moment was for her to see how she is acting--not me or her father. For her to think about being the person who insults the one she loves; about her being in a relationship where she rips apart all that has been built. God, it's tough. These kids, unfortunately, lose the opportunity to have a balance, a blend of parents, and not one or the other, as it seems to be for now.

Laura (www.RebelliousThoughtsofaWoman.com ( http://www.rebelliousthoughtsofawoman.com/ ))

 Oh Karen,

The biggest challenge has been to keep my mouth shut when I sooo wanted to just tell them what has been going on.

We didn't fight, I just withdrew.
He plays mind games and sometimes I wished I had had black eyes to show.

He is playing mindgames with them against me and they cannot see it and theya re not stupid.

I am so pleased for you that your son is noticing, it is healthy for him as well.

The saddest part was that my husband was the househusband and they feel he has been sacrificing himself for them oooh the irony of that......

My biggest fear is that my girls will chose a husband like him, after all that is how they think a male should behave.....

That would make me feel guilty......

 Ohh how frustrating.

 Wilma Ham

www.wilmasblog.com ( http://www.wilmasblog.com/ )

I too did the leaving, the most painful decision I ever had to make.  And I too have been blamed as he played (plays) the victim.  Of course, you cannot begin to tell the children all...why I left, what he did, how he too is wrong...

But my 11 year old, after two years, is coming around.  He fights my boundaries, but wants to be with me more and more...especially when his father is bashing me or acting out.  He doesn't say much, but his actions speak to the fact that he is seeing more clearly what is going on and choosing to stay away from his dad when it is unhealthy. 

My 9 year old daughter is not there, she defends her dad and can at times attack me angrily.  I have been told it is also the age when girls are connected to their dads and boys to their moms.  Thankfully her and I have a wonderful relationship and we can talk about things once everyone cools down.  But it is a huge challenge for me.

As much as I think they are not paying attention to who is the caring parent, small gestures make me realize that they feel what is going on, and recognize where they are truly being cared for. When they repeatedly forget to ask their father something, it shows. When they only ask me to take them places or go shopping with them, it shows. When they stay in their rooms when he is home, it shows. The only thing I am truly afraid of is that my older daughter will be like her father, abusive and controlling, in her own relationships. But this, this recognition that she might be subconsciously avoiding him makes me pause for hope.

Laura (www.RebelliousThoughtsofaWoman.com ( http://www.rebelliousthoughtsofawoman.com/ ))

 It is really hard to protect your children when the other party wants to play a game with their mind.
My daughters were 14 and 17 when I finally said enough is enough. Their fatehr was the most dramatic one and played his victim role very well.
I had no leg to stand on as I was the one who left.

After 7 years they still don't want to hear my side of the story. I can wait and show them my love and wait, while they eventually will see his mindgames.
I need to remember how good he is at that game; after all he played it with me for 27 years until I saw it for what it was.

Wima Ham
www.wilmasblog.com ( http://www.wilmasblog.com/ )

With all thats going on in this world , must we really make it any harder for our children?
Being a father of two boys and divorced over 19 years, I have come to realize that it truly does matter what we say and do in front of them. I always made it a point to watch what I said and never say anything bad about the children's mother in front of them. I would always keep it to myself, no matter how mad I was, and believe me there have been time where I was MAD AS HELL!
Just recently my oldest son (now 22) sat down with me and talked. He was telling me how he remembered all the fun things and places I took him and his brother to. He thanked me for it and then asked me, DAD' when we were growing up and lived with mom, she would always have bad things to say about you, but you would never say anything mean or bad regarding mom! Why? You would always say that she may have had a bad day at work and was upset. Your most famous line was, I am very grateful for your mom because without her, I would never have had you and your brother. I never thought he was listening to me when I spoke no less remembered this. I now know that the relationship between the kids and their mother is not the greatest.
Please keep in mind that they may not show they are listening or even let you know they care, but it truly has an effect on them and you will see it when you least expect it. They are the minds of our future. If we take that away then what do they have? You don't have to like, care for or even want anything to do with your ex, but if children are involved you must have respect! Respect yourself first and never lower yourself to their level. Two wrongs never make a right! Then respect them (your EX)for your children's sake they depend on it.........
Guy Goldsborough

But know that they grow up and come to appreciate you for trying to protect them. 

My daughter was 2 years old when her dad and I divorced.  She was about 15 or so when she started remembering things from her past and looking at them with more mature eyes.  It was then that she started questioning me about things that had happened when she was a younger child.  I answered her questions as best I could without complaining or giving more information than was necessary but still letting her know the facts.  Her dad was not always the most supportive parent.  She was upset that I had lied to her about so much (like saying her dad was sick instead of telling her that he had a change of plans for the weekend and could not take her.), but I think she really understands why I did it. 

She never came out and said thanks for what I did or didn't do...but I didn't expect or want her to...that was my job.   She had a change in the way she spoke to me, about her dad, about her past.  It was as if she had this new and almost depressing realization that her Dad was not the hero she had always wanted him to be.  I may have done things differently, but in the end I think she can look back and know that I always had her best interest in my heart and efforts. 

Keep up what you're doing. You are doing such a great job with them and they will realize soon enough that your unconditional love and your willingness to always listen and help is what brought them through these chaotic years. 

Children should never be used as a tool for inflicting emotional pain on your former spouse. In the long run, he's going to lose out on this because sooner or later, he'll start doing the same thing to them. I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. It's probably a difficult enough situation without it. 

Mary, mom to three

http://confessionsofacraftaddict.com

I know it doesn't help a lot now, but please know that your kids will remember all of this when they've grown up and can see things with more mature eyes.  They'll remember you were the one who was responsible and loved them enough to spare them the gory details.

www.mybitofearth.net ( http://www.mybitofearth.net )