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It's Nothing Personal. Its Political.

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I feel like suddenly Dave Matthews has crawled out of nowhere to peddle his influence in the political sphere. Now, honestly, I thought we'd gone beyond this nonsense. Unlike more reputable celebrties with less of a commitment to mediocre elevator music, Dave Matthews seems inequal to the task of really getting into the meat and potatoes of politics. Sure, he might have been on the Rock the Vote tour in 2004, and sure he might now be an expert in environmental policy after he dropped all that waste from his tour bus off the Kinzie Street bridge onto a Chicago tour boat, but, yeah...

First, it became abundantly clear that not only is he John Kerry's choice for campaign band, but he's Kerry's running mate, John Edward's choice for a wedding band. Or, at least that's what he promised his mistress. Danielle Crittenden at New Majority has the details and a playlist he should request.

Leaks from a tell-all book by a one-time aide to John Edwards reveal that Edwards and his mistress, Rielle Hunter, made plans for a wedding to be held after Elizabeth Edwards died. These plans included a rooftop location in Manhattan and, for dancing, the Dave Matthews Band.

“Pig,” “What Would You Say,” “Too Much,” “I Did It”

And then, perhaps given that introduction, decided to wade into the debate over whether disagreement on Obama's policies is motivated by a deep-seeded racial prejudice.

CNN: President Carter said he thinks that a lot of the animosity directed toward President Obama is race related.

Dave Matthews:
Of course it is! I found there's a fairly blatant racism in America
that's already there, and I don't think I noticed it when I lived here
as a kid. But when I went back to South Africa, and then it's sort of
thrust in your face, and then came back here -- I just see it
everywhere. There's a good population of people in this country that
are terrified of the president only because he's black, even if they
don't say it. And I think a lot of them, behind closed doors, do say
it.

And that's where it really went off the rails.

Repeatedly over the last few weeks, conservatives have had their views classified as "racist," stealing any legitimate points from their arguments before they even have the chance to make them. It seems that, despite a long history we have in this country of vocal opposition to our elected leaders (a history that Reason Magazine chronicled in an article today), particularly those who have just started their terms, opposition to President Obama is immediately classified as racism.

Are the people opposed to universal health care and massive new government programs that spend the taxpayers money at a time when they have a lot less racist? I don't know. I can't possibly know what's in everyone's mind. But racism is a hefty charge, and there are plenty of other viable explanations to be exhausted before you make the Jimmy Carter Jump, an event that the New York Times Kate Phillips recently discovered has set off a war of words across the blogosphere and the country.

By stepping
into the debate in such an explicit way, Mr. Carter used labels that
the White House and others have clearly tried to avoid in the wake of
Mr. Wilson’s remarks and last weekend’s angry demonstration on the
Washington Mall. White House aides and some lawmakers had earlier
deflected or dismissed questions centered on whether a racially tinged
prism was underfoot, in what seemed a concerted effort to try to stay
above the fray.

In a television interview on Sunday, Mr. Wilson, who was officially rebuked by the House on Tuesday,
dismissed suggestions that his actions were racially motivated. One of
his sons sprung to his defense after Mr. Carter’s remarks were
publicized, saying his father didn’t have a “racist bone” in his body.

President Obama has not followed in the footsteps of past Presidents in making himself seem more moderate than the programs he proposes, substantiating some fears that he's more liberal than he let on during the election. He's assuming the office of President at a time when the population is terrified of economic collapse, unable to see the light at the end of the tunnel, and honestly scarred by a previous administration that, according to most Americans, overstepped nearly every one of its bounds in relentless pursuit of its own goals. The Office itself isn't the same as it was before Bush and Clinton took control; Americans have seen what it can do. And as Reason Magazine observes, "He took over

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Nordette Adams 6 pts

First I will apologize to you for one thing and that was my saying when I first responded to your comment with the following:  "All I got from this was ..."

That "all I got" statement was inaccurate because I read a lot more of what you said and was only speaking of the final paragraph. I saw that you condemned racism, etc. To say "All I got" from that long comment was that you don't know the difference between insulting an ethnic group and a political group was misleading and insensitive to the time you took to write so much to Michelle that I believe was from the heart as an olive branch.

Moving on, while you may elect to turn my criticism of your words into a personal matter by accusing me of "twisting" people's words, I will stick to what you said.

 The conservative could say that they condemn racism and it has no place-ever-in their party. They could acknowledge that there have been racist signs on the news and for the stray crazies that are responsible, there is no excuse. But they could say, as Eric Cantor and I did, that we haven’t seen it with our own, alert, open eyes. And that conservatives are being maligned as a party of racists when that is not true. Then the liberal could say that they are appalled at the people with racist signs as well, and don’t condone racism on either side of the aisle. They could say that they feel only pity and contempt for people who judge Obama for anything other than his political policy. But that lumping conservatives into one racist category is false and wrong. And that liberals need to calmly accept and be ready for rhetoric that may make them angry, just as they asked conservatives to do during the Bush administration when they did the same thing. Then they could French kiss and make up and we would all live happily ever after. I know, I know. Not gonna happen. Could you hand me a beer?

In the above segment, you begin speaking of how wrong racism is and then, perhaps without realizing it, you do what some conservatives have done consistently when attempting to tackle race relations in the age of Obama, which is to remind anyone who will listen that conservatives are being "maligned as racists" and you assert that this is "false and wrong." I see this kind of argument all the time in forums, statements which go like this, "It's just as wrong to stereotype conservatives as it is to stereotype black people." The words "just as" equate insults against a political party or group with insults against an ethnic group.

This false start on conflict resolution goes back to schoolyard thinking, "Johnny called me a name," and then Johnny says, "She called me one too." So both children get a time out. However, this thinking cannot be applied to racist rhetoric versus political rhetoric. While we may agree that name calling is wrong, we cannot agree that calling someone a "nigger" is the same as calling someone a "racist."  If you are a human then to be called "racist" you have usually taken some action or said something that may classified as racist.  Anyone who calls you racist simply based on your ethnicity is prejudiced. However, if you've said something that is racist or expressed some racist belief, then that person is not calling you a "name." That person is classifying you based on what you've said or done and if you don't want to be classified as a racist, you can change your attitude and thinking.

If you are born black you may be called a "nigger" simply because you were born black. You have done nothing but been born. If you don't want to be called "nigger," then you have to tell people don't call you "nigger" but they may look at you and say, "Why not? It's what you are. No hope for you."

Honestly, I hate using the example of "nigger" because from what I can see some people in America only recognize this kind of blatant racial slur and anything else, such as a pundit saying "black people are in a 30-year plot to turn their children against America" or a white mayor sending out a picture of the White House after Obama as a field of watermelons, they don't seem to understand is also racist. And a crowd that applauds a man tearing up a Rosa Parks poster ( http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/12462/lowlife-... ) at a health care reform town hall meeting is only expressing its opinion against health care. Consequently, it does not seem odd to them that the white man who tore up the poster is allowed to stay and the black woman who had the Rosa Parks poster is escorted out by police.

When I read what you've written, I read it within the context of not only American Princess's post here and comments but also within the context of media reports and my personal experience. Your paragraph continues and near the end of the quoted segment you say "liberals need to calmly accept and be ready for rhetoric that may make them angry, just as they asked conservatives to do during the Bush administration when they did the same thing."  

Given what is being discussed here, the charge that some conservatives use racist rhetoric, a charge with which you do not agree, then are you suggesting that if liberals perceive that something some conservatives are saying about Obama to be racist then that is something that they should "calmly accept" as "rhetoric that makes them angry" because they did the "same thing" when they criticized Bush?  

Please keep in mind that you've already said you see no evidence of racism among conservatives while liberals/progressives and people of color are saying the evidence is clear.  If you say that conservatives do not use racist rhetoric and people of color say that they do, how can this disagreement be resolved? How will a blanket statement of "we condemn racism" help anything if conservatives don't seem to know what kinds of statements people of color consider racist and why?

In your comment that contains the paragraph I've quoted, you've very neatly absolved conservatives of actually using any racist rhetoric, which minimizes the hurt feelings of black people who say they've heard it with their own ears and read it with it their own eyes,  and you promote the belief that if there are racists at conservative events or people who call themselves conservatives and carry racist signs at public events, then it's just some loonies on the fringe that the media's found (and I'll agree that there's probably some validity to the idea that reporters seek the most sensational images); however,  I could give you a list of instances in which prominent conservatives, not just some yo-yo nobody knows at a protest rally, have used racist rhetoric. (I could supply links, but most people don't follow them to see if the rhetoric referenced is indeed racist anymore than they pay attention to the examples given when quoted directly in the passage. They just keep arguing their points while ignoring facts.)

What usually happens is a black person supplies a list of comments that people of color consider to be racist made by prominent conservative pundits and conservative commenters brush them off with statements like "Oh, he's just an entertainer." or "I don't see what's racist about that." or "Stop being so sensitive. It was a joke." So, why bother supplying a list?

Later in the quoted segment, as you whittle down to the thought that liberals need to accept rhetoric that makes them angry the way conservatives had to accept nasty rhetoric during the Bush administration, you move from racist rhetoric, which you do not believe "real" conservatives use, to a discussion of insulting conservatives. So, you have put the two types of insults on equal footing.  (I'm still trying to figure out how this is a discussion about liberals when the insulted group is black people. I get the impression that if some conservative makes a racist statement and someone who's classified as "liberal" points it out, then conservatives declare whatever was said not be racist but political usually with the phrase "playing the race card.")  

I agree that people can't go around constantly apologizing because sometimes folks just misspeak and mean no harm. However, frequently they say exactly what they mean. You can usually tell who actually means harm, who doesn't give a damn, and who spoke in ignorance and meant nothing by it by their reactions when confronted. The people who really mean harm or who just don't care that they've insulted you either deny that they said whatever it is or they try to tell you that what they said is no big deal and you should get over it. The people who sincerely don't mean to harm anyone want to listen honestly to learn why the term, saying, policy, essay, or argument was declared offensive.

Perhaps your intent is not to equate ethnic group with political group. If so, I understand that, but I read what you wrote within the context of the overall discussion that what most conservatives have said and done is not racists or at the very least you don't accept any classification of anything that may have been said or done as being racist because you have not personally witnessed it.

You say you wish that both sides would stand up and agree racist rhetoric is wrong, but that seems odd since "liberals," as you call them, have been maintaining racist rhetoric is wrong for decades. The term "bleeding heart liberal" is associated with "liberals" becuase of how they've shown sympathy for minorities, a tendency disdained by conservative pundits and politicians. So why should "liberals" also make apologies for an issue that primarily presents a public image problem for conservatives? Again this is schoolyard conflict resolution applied to a more serious matter that adults should address as mature humans.

You seem to be saying that since conservatives have been maligned as racists that they too have been injured and deserve some kind of mollification from "liberals." Aside from the fact that I don't believe all conservatives are being maligned as racists, what I see is you think this perceived affront to conservatives is equivalent to the affront a person of color experiences when hearing racist rhetoric.  

If you do not think this is the case, then why imply an apology is due to conservatives, an apology which you suggest is unlikely for political reasons?  

Furthermore, those protesters who seem to be racially-motivated, even if on the fringe, do not exist in a vacuum. They reflect views similar to those we hear from conservative media mouthpieces; however, the image of conservatives as racist has been going strong since the 50s and 60s. Do you propose that the image of conservative as racist is something thrust upon them by "liberals"? Such a statement must necessarily ignore historical facts.

As to the twisting of words, it intrigues me that when given the opportunity to clarify what you mean, you resort to an accusation of some supposed twisting of words. All I'm doing is telling you how I understood one paragraph of your comment.  

If it's not what you meant, then why not simply say, "That's not what I meant"? Why resort to complaints about what it is you think I do to other people? 

This is a forum. The only way anyone has of gauging what you mean is by evaluating your wording.  Clarify what you said or don't clarify what you said, but please don't assail me with your perceptions of who I am as a person. I have called you no names. I simply said I disagree with something you said and now I've explained why. How can you propose that any type of reconciliation between people of different ethnic groups is possible without also advocating that people try to listen and understand what the person they may oppose has said?

To recap, your paragraph in question implies that rhetoric that is critical of Obama that "liberals" perceive to be racist is something they should get used to and accept because in your opinion conservatives do not use racist rhetoric, the "liberals" were equally nasty to Bush, and it's the same thing. If you were not speaking of the perception of racist rhetoric and charges that criticism of Obama is motivated by race, then please tell me what you meant instead.

If you sincerely feel that your words have been twisted and you have in some way been maligned personally, then please report your concern to Denise Tanton, the community manager.  I, however, will not report your personal attack on me. Thank you.

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ).

NOfreelunch 5 pts

read my last paragraph and try to explain to me how I equated conservatism with an ethnic group. I can't understand how you have come to that conclusion after reading the paragraph over. Either way, that's the furthest thing from what I think, and it's ridiculous. I would never try to state or imply that conservatism is anything close to an ethnic group.

I'm not participating in one of those "discussions" that you have with some people on this website in which you twist their words every which way to make them seem like something they are not, or say something they clearly have not said. People who are trying their best to be polite and rational to you while you bash them. Try it on someone else.

Nordette Adams 6 pts

In your final paragraph you treat being a conservative as though it is the same as being from a specific ethnic group. They are not the same. You are incorrect in the same way someone who writes 2+2=11 would be incorrect. This is not a matter of opinion but of fact.

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ).

NOfreelunch 5 pts

I gave my opinion, you gave yours.

Nordette Adams 6 pts

All I've gathered from this is that you don't the difference between insults against a political group and insults against an ethnic group and you speak glibly about something that perhaps you do not understand. 

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ).

NOfreelunch 5 pts

While I think what Schultz (a former Republican as late as 1994, when he was considering a run for Congress as a Republican) said is laughable, he has the right to pop a vein and sound as moronic as he wants to. I don't think what he said calls for an apology. Because if everyone of every political bent demanded and received an apology for everything they found offensive, people would just be apologizing all day long and nothing would get done. I think there are some inflammatory and ridiculous statements made by conservatives. I also think there are inflammatory and ridiculous things said by the left. The Supreme Court has always given a wide berth for people to say inflammatory and sometimes even hateful things. They even declared it legal for losers like Neo Nazis and the KKK to assemble and spout their b.s. But I think us reasonable people should be allowed to listen to the vast majority of the b.s. out there, uncensored, and make up our own minds who we think is a jerk and whose opinions we discount.

As far as I'm concerned, there's no place for what legally qualifies as hate speech at any time, much less in any political debate. In my opinion, if an elected official says something offensive, it is the job of the people to vote that person out. Not the job of everyone who doesn't like it to demand their apology. In the Politico article you placed under the "experts" link, it included the following:

“In the United States, experts say, political violence is more likely to come from deranged loners than to come from any specific political group…Potentially violent loners, though, can be influenced by the atmosphere around them. Some of the security experts said angry rhetoric and images in the culture can agitate and inspire those loners to cross the line from anger to violence.”

Well no shit. They mean to tell me that mentally ill, violent loners may be influenced by their environment? Shocker. But our legal system doesn’t buy it. Whoever commits a violent act is not excused from what made them mad enough. In my opinion, Nancy Pelosi is making a subtle attempt to discredit people who are legitimately having meaningful discourse and learning at these Town Halls but disagree with the proposed bill. She’s doing so by implying that people objecting to the bill are all psychos “inciting violence.” I think Nancy Pelosi is a private jet slurping, money hungry, greedy elitist who wouldn’t go to bat for the poor, minority or disenfranchised for a split second if it meant she would be one penny poorer. I also think she and President Carter and a lot of these racist-crying white peeps wouldn’t know racism if it came up and said “BOO” to them in their fancy, white bread neighborhoods that they never leave--so they really sound stupid mouthing off about it. I DO think Nancy’s in another world, but that’s all just my opinion. Yours is probably different. Technically I think someone could make an argument that what Schultz, Pelosi and Carter said could just as easily incite violence from some psycho as the things that some people on Fox news say. It goes both ways.

One thing I know that we agree on, Michelle, is that we are tired of this crap and we want to get past it and work toward a better world. Sure we may disagree about the ways to go about it. But we both absolutely condemn racism and hate speech and we think there should be a zero tolerance policy for it. That’s why I think it would be great to see a high ranking conservative together with a high ranking liberal make a public statement. The conservative could say that they condemn racism and it has no place-ever-in their party. They could acknowledge that there have been racist signs on the news and for the stray crazies that are responsible, there is no excuse. But they could say, as Eric Cantor and I did, that we haven’t seen it with our own, alert, open eyes. And that conservatives are being maligned as a party of racists when that is not true. Then the liberal could say that they are appalled at the people with racist signs as well, and don’t condone racism on either side of the aisle. They could say that they feel only pity and contempt for people who judge Obama for anything other than his political policy. But that lumping conservatives into one racist category is false and wrong. And that liberals need to calmly accept and be ready for rhetoric that may make them angry, just as they asked conservatives to do during the Bush administration when they did the same thing. Then they could French kiss and make up and we would all live happily ever after. I know, I know. Not gonna happen. Could you hand me a beer?

Southerngirl 5 pts

I appluad you for sticking with this becuse that really is the only way we get beyond it.  We cannot just take our toys and go we have to talk.  When we talk openly and honestly we get to a place where we can work together and find the solutions we need.  The thing is no one works well with someone they do not trust.  Even if we disagree when we know where the other person is coming from we can figure out a way around it or we can truly agree to disagree.  ALL of us have way more in common than we have differences.  And when those differences are respected they can cause each of us to grow.

I hope we can all take something away from this tread.  I know that I now get the frustration felt by many for being called racist.  But I also hope someone can get why it is soo hurtful when you don't say nope that crap was wrong and state your point from there instead of instantly making excuses or turning it back to well they did it too!  Because yeah it is in fact personal.

Michelle

I blog at http://www.mommycan.blogspot.com/

Southerngirl 5 pts

I just read this today ( http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/0909/Sch... ) on Politico

"Furthermore, Speaker Pelosi should take a stand and condemn this unacceptable rhetoric, especially since she voiced such grave concern last week over the possibility that such inflammatory language could ‘incite violence.’”

When will the calls for FOX and Eric Cantor to take a stand get answered?

 But here ( http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/27461.ht... ) is what Republican leadership had to say in response to her statement about violence.  But here ( http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/27566.ht... ) is what the experts think.

Michelle

I blog at http://www.mommycan.blogspot.com/

Southerngirl 5 pts

I thank you for understanding what I am saying.  It pisses me off that when you say this the only response you get is well they don't represent me.  Well if they don't then call them on it.  There is some sh*t that we do not need to do over again because it has been done and we KNOW nothing good will come from it.  We do not have to go back as far as the 60s we can take a look at our recent history to see that hate can cause a campfire to become an all consuming inferno.

 I myself would like to see a high ranking conservative come out and condemn all racist acts and apologize on the behalf of any freaks for any signs of racism (if that hasn't already happened)

I assure you that it has not already happened.  We have Senators and Reps ELECTED officials talking about the President's birth certificate, and death panels or my favorite is Eric Cantor telling the woman to just find some charity to help her.  This is crazy.  To work on a goverenment contract I had to be background checked to the point of turning all documentations so we truly believe that the guy who gets to RUN our country has not been checked?  Really now? I think Colin Powell is a pretty credible source on this matter of the hate speech.

The other thing is to AP this may not be personal to her but when you attack the PRESIDENT based on his race what does that say for how my sons or brothers can be treated?  If you do not stand up for the President then how can I expect anyone to stand up for my kid?  See it is personal because my kid may not ever have anything in common with President Obama BUT the color of their skin.  This as a mom, sister, auntee makes me very angry and I take it very personal. Because I can still see the men in my family face down on the side of I-95 in MD as the police seacrh our cars on our way to SC from NY  for Christmas because did you know it is a big drug corridor? A car load of Black men in a nice car with presents in the back can only be heading out on a drug run. They actually pointed their guns at us when we stopped because I guess my Grandma and Auntees look very threatning. That picture of Prof. Gates still brings tears to my eyes.  This stuff is hurtful in ways that cannot fully be explained it is a soulful hurt and when you are subjected to it over and over....well.  As AP said many people will walk away from the debate but I will not even bother to show up because how do I know I will be safe? 

It sounds like an excuse, but it's true. You know what I noticed from the large Tea Party? The news coverage of it was full of toothless, sweatpanted wonders stammering into the camera and saying things like "It Ain't Right. It just Ain't right." When in actuality, for every person like that there were hundreds of people who were dressed nicely, had seen a dentist/brushed their teeth in the past 20 years, were politically informed and could reasonably articulate why they were there.

This gave me a very pollitically incorrect laugh.  I would say now that you know how lots of Black people feel when they show Sha ne ne on the news in her pjs @ ( http://twitter.com/ ) 2pm with that dirty baby on her hip and those damn rollers in her hair speaking some known only to her version of the English language :)

But AP this was a very good topic maybe now you can understand why it is personal and we can all work together becuse just as you may walk away many will not show.  But I do say to conservatives just take a moment to listen because no one is saying that all conservatives a racist but what I am saying is that if you cannot acknowledge it and shut that part of the coalition out then I will assume you agree and not even hear anything you have to say.

Michelle

I blog at http://www.mommycan.blogspot.com/

NOfreelunch 5 pts

Michelle, I can see your point. You think that conservatives in high ranking positions should come out and denounce the few freaks who are walking around with those elusive "bone in nose" signs. I can understand how you feel that their silence is an affront to your experiences with racism. I agree, the crazies need to "be shamed into going back into the hole they crawled out of."

I would definitely love to kick the living shit out of ANYONE who had any kind of racist sign, muttered one racist word under their breath or anything of the kind. Because it's those assholes that are giving some people the wrong impression about the millions and millions of good people like me and my friends and relatives, all of whom strongly believe in equality and love for every race, religion, gender and sexual orientation.

But I've said it before and I'll say it again. Maybe I have a skewed perception because I live in a metropolitan area that is delightfully full of people of color--but I have attended 2 town hall meetings (one I just stood outside of) and two tea party events. One tea party protest was very large, thousands of people. I'm very into photography so I went around that whole crowd, walking around and around and through it. I'm telling you the God's honest truth that I did not see ONE racist sign or hear ONE racist comment. And I was paying attention, because I was taking pictures of the signs. Most of them didn't even mention Obama at all. Mostly they talked about big government, Congressmen/women, taxing and spending, Nanny States, deficit, etc. I walked all over that protest for at least an hour and a half. I stood behind groups of people and heard what they were saying. They were mostly cheering on speakers and saying "Yeah!" and the usual rally kind of stuff. Then, at the town hall meeting, like I said, the only racial thing that went down was the beating and berating of a black man by "progressive" black thugs. There again, I did not see one racial sign or hear any racial comments. But you can bet your ass that if I would have, someone would have to hold me back. And I can't tell you how many people I know that feel the same way.

I'm not saying your experiences with racism are not true and are not still happening in this country. Of course I don't see it, because no one I ever encounter in my city ever says anything like that around me. Maybe they know not to, and I'm sheltered, I don't know.  But I'm begging you to understand that the mainstream media is trying to paint the situation SO much worse than it is. As soon as they get to these protests and rallies, they literally set off in search of some nutbag freak to interview about his White Power. Because I'm telling you, by and large the mainstream media doesn't like anyone who isn't a Democrat, and they will fall all over themselves to make conservatives look bad. It sounds like an excuse, but it's true. You know what I noticed from the large Tea Party? The news coverage of it was full of toothless, sweatpanted wonders stammering into the camera and saying things like "It Ain't Right. It just Ain't right." When in actuality, for every person like that there were hundreds of people who were dressed nicely, had seen a dentist/brushed their teeth in the past 20 years, were politically informed and could reasonably articulate why they were there.

So when Progressives/Democrats are making the assumption that no one cares if some inbred losers show up with racist signs, how are they able to make that assumption? Were they there? I wish the same people who think these tea parties and many conservatives are racist would actually show up to a few of these protests and town halls. I believe then they would be so much less disturbed than by watching msnbc broadcast the most hideous signs they can find in a country this large. I wouldn't even bat an eye if I found out that a member of the media made a racist sign and handed it to the nearest homeless person.  Because I can assure you, the vast majority of the good people of this country will be on those racist creeps faster than flies on shit, and they will be hurting. Don't underestimate the goodness of conservatives just because of the lunatic fringe. And don't assume that just because someone is standing across the road with some terribly hurtful sign and no one else even sees them that they would not call them out if they did see them.
     I myself would like to see a high ranking conservative come out and condemn all racist acts and apologize on the behalf of any freaks for any signs of racism (if that hasn't already happened) and stand up for the rest of us.

NOfreelunch 5 pts

"I feel like suddenly Dave Matthews has crawled out of nowhere to peddle his influence in the political sphere."

Where's a can of pesticide when you need it?

Nordette Adams 6 pts

I think GWB is a dumb hick whose only saving grace is that he KNEW he was dumb as bricks so he surrounded himself with people who could help him look coherent.  BUT he should not have been booed at the inauguration, and I would have been just as mad if he was heckled at a joint session of congress.  

Booing him at the inauguration was so tacky. Otherwise, thanks for the laugh here caused by your bluntness. :-)

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ).

Nordette Adams 6 pts

If we get health care reform this presidential term, we're going to end up with some mix 'n match FUBAR so-called reform that everybody hates. The right will say, "We told you so." And the left will say, "It's a right-wing compromise." I've given up on health care reform this term.

If Americans really wanted good health care reform and understood what was at stake, they wouldn't be so easily swayed by pundits doling out misinformation and ex-governors slinging around phrases like "death panels.".  If Americans really wanted good health care reform, they'd decide it's better to read the longest ever bill themselves and not let some political operative spin it for them.  It's either that we don't really want it or we're a nation afflicted by low reading comprehension and poor analytical skills.

I figure should I be fortunate enough to live to my 80th birthday, which is very unlikely, and we still don't have health care reform, I'll curse myself watching folks literally die in the streets. That's pretty doom and gloom, but I have no faith in people working together as long as the ultimate goal for average politicians is holding on to political office rather than doing right by the nation and the pleasure of the people with the money is to lobby those politicians to vote their way.

And I guarantee that nobody who opposed reasonable health care reform will look back and say, "I was wrong" even if the U.S.A. is hit by a plague proven to be the direct result of people having inadequate health care. Once humans commit this passionately to being against something, they rarely ever admit they're wrong.

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ).

Denise 9 pts moderator

I don't take it personally.

I would really just like to focus on health care reform for the sake of health care reform. Or education reform for the sake of education reform.

Not that the issue of racism isn't important, it is. It's huge and that we've made so little progress in the last 50 years is ridiculous. (Look at the comment to Gena's post about the rebel flag and Dixie, Lord... what is wrong with people.) I would just like to find some way for all of us to work together to find a good solution to health care. 

I said last fall that I didn't think we were going to see any real progress on health care or education with an Obama administration and I don't really want to be right. In fact I want to be very very wrong.  I'd like to work in a positive way to help make myself wrong. (Does that even make sense? The day has flown by and I'm exhausted, lol.)

~Denise BlogHer Community Manager
Flamingo House Happenings ( http://www.flamingohouse.net/ )

Nordette Adams 6 pts

Oh, and, Denise, I accept your comment. I do believe you want civil discourse and you can see more than just one side. I'm simply sharing with you how I read the post, and the paragraph in question, and why I found your first comment disturbing.

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ).

Nordette Adams 6 pts

What does that mean, "the problem with staying on the racism train"?

Is it true that conservatives aren't allowed to defend their points or is it true that when they refuse to denounce those who mix conservative points with racist rhetoric or pretend the history of the Republican Party as the sanctuary of segregationists since the 60s and white flighters never happened or that they haven't used the southern strategy as a tactic before and some of what we've seen in the health care reform debate resembles that all while they refuse to speak ill of conservative talk show pundits who definitely inject race into political issues that it's then that people tune them out? 

Try this in your personal life. The next time somebody complains about something that you've done or do tell them that they are mistaken, that you've never done what it is they said you did even if they have pictures and then try to change the subject. See how that works.

Please consider the following.

When a newscaster interviews a self-identified conservative and shows a series of video clips from Town Hall meetings or conservative rallies that include protesters waving signs with racial slurs or Obama as an African witch doctor with a bone through his nose and some guy standing next to a statue he's made of Obama in chains, and the newscaster asks, "Do you think conservative opposition to Obama's policies are motivated by racism?" people with functioning brains may evaluate the response.

Instead of saying, "I see no evidence of that and that's just Obama supporters playing the race card," why not say, "If you're asking me did I see people in that video clip using racist images instead of talking about health care reform, then what can I say but it's true some humans are racists. However, if you're asking me are all opponents to health care reform racists, my answer is 'no.'? There are good reasons to object." Then enumerate those reasons.

Why do they take the route of "see no racist" until somebody piles so much evidence on them that they look like idiots and then all they do is whisper at the tail end of the interview, "some people are racist."  It's too late then. They've already lost credibility because viewers saw the clip in the beginning.

They lose credibility the same way George Bush's administration lost credibility when they said they needed confirmation that New Orleans was under water while the world sat at home watching people in the water on CNN.

I've tuned out conservatives who deny they have racism in movement. Give me one good reason why I shouldn't.

If you're going to lie to me about what's slapping me in the face, then you'll lie about other matters as well, and certainly you're no friend of mine if you let people slap me in the face while you say nothing.

The proof in the pudding is conservatives don't care if black women tune them out. If they did, they'd be proactive rather than reactive about the people at the rallies with the "you voted for that nigger" signs and they'd speak out against instead of on behalf of their most vocal pundits who injected racism into the health care reform debate long before former president Jimmy Carter opened his mouth or Dave Matthews shared his ineffectual opinion. 

But they refuse to address racism directly. They won't talk to the people in their own camp who make conservatives easy targets for a racism charge. They'd rather tell the people who their brethren offend, "Why don't you stop talking about racism. Shut up and get over it" even when it's recent on last night's news. They lack the moral backbone to speak up and call out their own people on racism, and I mean blatant racist rhetoric, pictures, and signs.

And now we've got this clever thing going on where you can't even bring up the Holocaust, not even to discuss racism, when if ever there was a case study on how racist rhetoric ignored has horrific consequences that's it. And you can't bring up slavery. And you can't bring up lynchings. And you can't mention the KKK. And now you can't even call the man who tears up the Rosa Parks sign a racist lest you offend all conservatives? What can be concluded but that perhaps even the ones who don't tear up the sign would like to do so since they don't see anything wrong with the one who did?

If you can explain that to me, if American Princess can explain that to me, I'd be shocked. And yes, I do use the same examples over and over again because their open cases until they are addressed by a conservative with with as much clout as a Limbaugh or a Beck or an O'Reilly.

Hell might freeze over before that happens. They'd see it as political suicide the same way President Barack Obama knows it's political suicide to talk race since the Henry Louis Gates incident.

The climate on race is thick with conservative denial and political posturing that seeks to sooth the conservative beast. I guarantee you that if I posted a blog at BlogHer tomorrow critiquing Rush Limbaugh, some of the same people who run through the site declaring "I'm not racist" would drop by to defend Rush Limbaugh all the while ignoring the examples I select that indicate he pushes hate speech.

And I further guarantee you that if one of them defended him and then said they wanted to debate conservative objections to big government instead and I said my post is not about government it's about Rush Limbaugh, somebody would say I'm unfair because I don't want to engage conservatives on government spending and that someone would never address the person who defended Limbaugh directly and ask them why do they want to change the subject, why do they assume that I as black female is obligated to talk about what they want to talk about instead of the post itself, which happened to be clearly about race?

Why is that?

I'd bet money that there's somebody reading my comment here right now and seething, who wants to say "I'm a conservative and I'm not a racist."

My question to that person is "Then why are you more angry at me instead of the people carrying the nigger signs? Why are you more threatened by the acknowledgement of racism in conservative groups than you are by clearly identifiable racism? Why is a comment about some conservatives being racist flipped in your mind to mean all conservatives and followed with an intense need to deny the language, the deeds, the imagery of racism as racist? Finally, why do you swagger by and tell me glibly to accept it all for the good of the what? The peace? My family? The nation? The discourse that winks at racist rhetoric but tells me it's not personal?"

It's understood that the voice of white conservatives are more valuable than mine simply because the solution to the racial conundrum in the health care reform debate is for me to get off the "racism" train because if I don't those conservatives leave the room. If the word racism was "sexism" and we were talking about a group of men at a rally with "Little woman go home signs" or "Bitches, please!" I doubt any woman who calls herself a "feminist" would say the answer is for the women to shut up. But the people who claim they are not racist want me to shut up this time. Hmm.

You applauded that paragraph in American Princess's post but the words and concepts in that paragraph covered a lot of emotions, concepts, spin, and comfort in the knowledge that white conservatives are the preferred political customer, the ones people don't want to anger. 

If you feared that all groups will walk away from the table, I didn't get that based on the paragraph you chose to quote and applaud.

Why did you applaud a paragraph that essentially says shut up about racism or my people are going home?

Get off the racism train indeed.

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ).

Southerngirl 5 pts

This is what starts the yelling.  Saying that when I call the crazy guy on AC 360 or that birther lady or the guy with the witch doctor sign a racist I am calling every White person a racist.  Don't stick your finger in your ears listen to what is being said. I do not remember reading anywhere that all of this critisim is racist.  It is not what former President Carter said it is not what I said it is not what is being said.  But What I do say is we need to call it out and dump it when it is.  Nothing disinfects like a little sunshine.  These crazies need to be shamed into going back into the hole they crawled out of or bad things truly will happen.

Michelle

I blog at http://www.mommycan.blogspot.com/

ezwriter1957 5 pts

Every president since George Washington has been criticized.  So if anyone dares to question or criticize Obama or his policies they will be deemed a racist?  That's pretty darn extreme.  We can no longer be objective if this is the case.  I'm against labels and stereotypes of all kinds and that includes the stereotypical catagories that can lump all conservatives into a box with a pretty bow on top.  It's wrong.  If we are to move on in this country we need to find some common ground and end this type of reactionary name calling.  It's uncalled for.     

Denise 9 pts moderator

That's another thing that makes me angry, I'm glad you linked it (even if it sends my blood pressure skyrocketing.)

Look at that list, and what are we doing to change things? Not enough.

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

Flamingo House Happenings ( http://www.flamingohouse.net/ )

Denise 9 pts moderator

Acknowledging that folks are going to walk away from the table and are already walking away from the table is just that - an acknowledgement of it happening.

And when I said bad things are going to happen, that is my personal opinion that we cannot resolve anything without all players at the table. When one group walks away, things just get worse.

My point is that we have to find a way to talk to each other and listen to each other. Without finger pointing, without attacks, without alienating each other. I did not indicate that any one group or party or person needs to do all of the work or carry all of the responsibility in this.

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

Flamingo House Happenings ( http://www.flamingohouse.net/ )

Nordette Adams 6 pts

considered to be too passionate, that people think I chew up folks and spit 'em out sometimes, and so I'll make a recommendation. Please find a white person who writes diplomatically on definitions of white privilege, someone who's studied the topic and is a recognized scholar on the subject who simply studies it like it's an amoeba under a microscope. Get him/her to dissect the referenced paragraph and answer does it reflect white privilege or not? What is the suggestion that bad things will happen if these people take their marbles and go home, to paraphrase the concept of their leaving the table, other than an acknowledgment that even in this age of the black president, it's the "hard working white conservatives" who've got the marbles that make the game possible?

Even better, get five people who write on the topic of white privilege to dissect it. Make it a meme and let people from all political leanings and ethnic backgrounds chime in.

I've got other issues with other sections, thoughts on linguistic games, but, you know, one paragraph at a time.

What better place to examine what's really being said on race in America than at BlogHer through posts by BlogHer CEs?

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ).

Southerngirl 5 pts

If it is I will answer.  I never said that there were no protests against Bush but I asked where were the Tea Party protesters agaist Bush?

I never said that the crazy man ( I will not breath his name) was the Tea Party leader.  This article ( http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/12/tea.party.r... ) did AC 360 did but I did not. 

How did you come to the conclusion that Rev. Wright speaks for all Black peopple from what I wrote?  I said he is denouced by our leadership but NO ONE in the Republican leadership denouces the crazy coming from that side of the debate.  That has to be done.  We all all of the civilzed amoung us have to say enough! I have to say it to the crazies around me and you need to say it to the crazies around you.  We ALL have to denouce this as what it is.  Stop giving me this batsh*t crap that it was only a few people, or Mark WIlliams is not elected. It was WRONG no ifs ands or buts about it.

What I am saying as direct as I can that if ACORN is defunded so then should all of these companies ( http://www.contractormisconduct.org/ ) be as well. including Haliburton.  The rules should apply to all not just those who work for the poor.

I think GWB is a dumb hick whose only saving grace is that he KNEW he was dumb as bricks so he surrounded himself with people who could help him look coherent.  BUT he should not have been booed at the inuguration, and I would have been just as mad if he was heckled at a joint session of congress.  He was still after all my President.  Just as my toothless, crazy cousin is still my family. I can laugh only so long before I say OK she is family.

A racist attack on one person IS ABSOLUTLY ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came... ) an attack on all of us. What does all of this Muslim crap say to that little Muslim kid out there looking at this? or to the mom of this Muslim ( http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/krkhan.htm )? Calling everyone a racist does not help but not calling people on it is even more dangerous. I do not want some brown kid out there or even some Grown person who is thinking of and capable of doing great things not to becuse they are afraid of this kid of craziness coming their way.  We all lose if we let that happen.  I want the best and the brightest running our country, companies, hospitals and teaching.  So should we all.

I do what is right as a reflection of my character.  I do not expect to live on easy street.  But I do expect that if I go to work and do what I am supposed to then the other guy needs to as well or there should be some consequences for him just like for me.

Again I say what are the solutions to the problems we face coming from this debate?  Maybe I missed them but I do not hear nor see any concret solutions I hear and see a lot of yelling a lot of nos but no this is the direction we need to go and here is why.  Our country's healtcare system cannot be overhauled with a 20 page document.  It does not need to be over a 1000 pages but a few more than 20.

Michelle

I blog at http://www.mommycan.blogspot.com/

Denise 9 pts moderator

I was and still am livid about Joe Wilson and the atmosphere in SC that encourages this type of behavior and belief.

Many of my fellow South Carolinians (and I still consider myself a South Carolinian though I have not lived there since I was 17...) are so angry over the illegal immigrant issue that they cannot see straight.

I have a friend who refuses to go to one of her local big box home repair stores because the illegals hang out there looking for day labor.  She wants them rounded up and put on a slow boat to any country that isn't ours. I have no doubt that she cheered when Joe Wilson opened his rude (and in my opinion wrong) mouth and called our President a liar.  That makes me angry.

There are a whole slew of people in my home state who cheered because they HATE illegal immigrants and they aren't all that fond of our President either. They will tell you that it isn't the race of the individuals that they hate. They will say that it is the policy and the issues that arise because of illegal immigrants in their communities but their speech and their behavior don't always reflect that. Their speech and their behavior points to racism and hatred of individuals rather than anger at poor policies or the political and economic issues within their community. That makes me angry, too.

I do not tolerate hate speech directed toward anyone, ever, for any reason. I do not condone Joe Wilson's behavior. I do not condone the behavior of my fellow South Carolinians who patted him on the back (and sent him money.) 

We need health care reform.  I don't think President Obama's plan for health care reform, so far, is quite the right solution and I've said so. I also admit that I don't know what the right solution is.

We all need to be able to discuss important issues without hatred and without name calling.

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

Flamingo House Happenings ( http://www.flamingohouse.net/ )

Denise 9 pts moderator

I don't condone the taking the marbles and going home aspect, I simply acknowledget that this is what's happening and that if it continues, we're never going to be able to resolve the huge issues that we as a country are facing together.

I'm not really sure why you believe my acknowledging that this is happening is somehow an indication of my lack of self-realization or my lack of recognition of my own white privilege.

It is happening, Nordette. I'm not taking my marbles and going home because you pointed out my white privilege.  Others will take their marbles and go home and I don't want to see that happen. I'd much rather see us all find ways to work together to improve the world that we live in.

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

Flamingo House Happenings ( http://www.flamingohouse.net/ )

kdc521 5 pts

I don't think that every person who goes against Obama's policy is racist.  However, there are many who are.  My mom still lives in the South and has overheard White people say that they will never support Obama (or any Black person) for that matter as President.  I live in the North and have heard similar sentiments.

Do I think that we need to dwell on the racism? No. I would rather stick to the real political differences.

However, I think that it is not honest to say that racism doesn't exist and has not intensified the political divide.  The words that have been said and  the racially specific hate that has been directed towards Obama as a person demonstrates that.

Mr. Carter simply said what a lot of folks (Black, White and "Other") have been thinking and saying in their homes.  Was it helpful?  I'm not sure.  Is it true? Yes and no.

And that's where we're at in this "post-racial" (whatever that is?!) American society...

-Kimberly/Mom in the City

Nordette Adams 6 pts

This post, especially the concluding paragraph near the end of the post, is disturbing on a number of levels. The applause button pushed for the final paragraph in the first comment on the post is equally disturbing. I'm home ill today and wrote a long response that I elected not to share. I'm simply going on record in an effort to avoid an ulcer by repressing annoyance and saying the final paragraph and associated applause strikes me as the epitome of a lack of self-realization and awareness regarding white privilege. 

Ironically, the threat the paragraph encompasses and the associated applauding comment with similar acknowledgment, wears both the crown and mantle of white privilege fully. Very disturbing and revealing. 

Nordette @ Her411.com ( http://her411.com )

Erin White 5 pts

Wasn't it just a couple of years ago that people who voiced disagreement with the Bush administration were "not patriots"?  Today, people who disagree with the Obama administration are "racists". 

It's all political posturing.  BOTH parties do this.  It's nothing new.

Erin

My Mobile Adventures *~*~* ( http://MyMobileAdventures.com ) - Mobile/photo blog | @BellTinkR

The Single Rider ( http://TheSingleRider.com ) - The fine line between "alone" and "free" | @TheSingleRider

Flightkeeper 5 pts

not only in our major cities but in foreign ones which carried signs and accused him of mass murder, genocide and everything horrible under the sun.  Or perhaps you agreed with it.

Pelosi and other government representative who accuse people of racism and being like Hitler carry more weight than Mark Williams and his Indonesian Muslim thug comment.  Williams is not an elected leader.  How he is perceived as a leader of the TEA rallies is beyond me because most of the people who participated came on their own.  You also equate the very limited number of offensive signs as representative of the whole group of people who don't believe in Obama. 

By your logic, I guess that hate preacher who expressed racist sentiments about white people whose church Obama went to for 20 years represents all black people.  Thank you for letting me know that.  The killings of Allen and Malvo of white people were done on behalf of black people.  I thought those sentiments only expressed the rants and actions of people who were a very small number but now I know it represents the beliefs of the entire black population of the United States. 

I guess your beliefs also about Halliburton, the Republican Party, etc. is representative of all black people since you think an attack on one is an attack on all.  The black population is apparently to you this giant monolith.

By the way honey, you are not the only one who did everything right and is suffering.  You do things right because that's an expression of the kind of person you are not because you think everything should be on easy street for you.

 (My blogs are http://flightkeeper.blogspot.com and http://cutefuncool.blogspot.com)

Southerngirl 5 pts

It is also ver telling to me that the same people who cannot agree with the Prsident on ANYTHING else agrees with him whole hartedly about this not being racsist.

Michelle

I blog at http://www.mommycan.blogspot.com/

Southerngirl 5 pts

Yes you are right that all of this opposition is not racist but where was it when GWB was doing all of this?  Then there is this thing that Obama or any Democrat for that matter has to come out and denouce people like Rev. Wright, Louis FarraKhan and the like but NO ONE in the Republican leadership says well maybe just maybe calling the president an Indonesian Muslium welfare thug ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fymdNxn82M ) might not be a good thing.  Or ask the question why would it matter if President Obama is a Muslim?  Then maybe you did not see the racist ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/16/10-most-o... ) and just plain crazy ( http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=h... ) signs but tell me what would you have done if you had?  Silence gives consent and this crap is being given very loud consent from all of you who stand by and say nothing!  His face on foodstamps,  Obama waffles at the value voters summit, the kid that was elected head of the young republicans?

I have always ageed with a lot of Republucan principles but truth is as a group the republican party is Skizo.  You must have that baby but don't ask for help when you can't take care of it.  We need small goverenment when it come to schools and social programs but lets spend whatever it takes to buy the lastest a greatest bomb, missile or weapon.  Lets spend every ounce of energy we have going after ACORN but haliburton is OK we can fund them even after their contractors kill.  Lets whip up the angry mob but take no responsibility when it gets rolling out of control.  Anybody thought about George Wallace lately?

As a South Carolina ( http://www.laprogressive.com/2009/09/16/rep-steve-... ) native I am going to say it out loud I think Joe Wilson ( http://www.southernstudies.org/2009/09/rep-joe-wil... ) was in fact comfortable doing what he did because President Obama is BLACK.  Not a racist bone in his body my big wide fat A**.  Is all of this rasist?  Hell. No.  A lot of this is fear of the unknown.  Esp when respected leaders are talking death panel nonsense.  But tell me, a working mom who has insurance but still cannot go to the Dr. reguarly beacuse my co-pays kill me, what is the answer?  We have to have some sort of reform ( http://cheapskate.blogs.time.com/2009/09/16/health... ). The start of Allergy season this year cost me $285 that wasin 2 weeksand I have what is considered great health insurance.  I live barely above pay check to paycheck.  I did what I was supposed to I went to college, had kids late, all that good stuff but yet it does not help. I did not get a raise last year but my premiums as well as my co-pays went up so in fact I got a decrese in wages.  I do have a job, for that I am greatful. I do not see any coherent messages coming form the leadership of the republican party.  What is their plan?

It is personal for me.  Becuse when you attack anyone just becuse he is Black you attack my kid, my brother, my uncle, the men I love and who love me.  So yes honey this is very personal.

Michelle

I blog at http://www.mommycan.blogspot.com/

Flightkeeper 5 pts

Those people do it in order to make sure that conservatives are deprived of any defense.  They know that crying racism can be one of the worst accusations given our history and will automatically shut down any type of conversation.  There's already a hardening us against them mentality among conservatives because of this.  The conservatives who participated in the TEA uprisings and marches know that they're not racists and are resentful of those accusations when hurled against them because it's unfair and untrue. 

The other thing about numerous accusations of racism is that it makes the accusation more trite and people face it with contempt when untrue because they know that they are being manipulated.  Frankly, those morons who keep accusing other people of racism are being stupid when they do it thoughtlessly.  It's like crying "Wolf!" Racism still exists, when it rears its ugly head and the accusation is truly merited, they might find the audience unreceptive, unhelpful and disbelieving. 

(My blogs are http://flightkeeper.blogspot.com and http://cutefuncool.blogspot.com)

Denise 9 pts moderator

I nodded my head through most of this.  You nailed it here:

The problem with staying on the "racism" train is that, as I said, it strips the conservatives of their legitimate arguments. Given no chance to defend their positions, and immediately criticized and characterized as things they know they are not, they will become increasingly polarized against what they already oppose. Instead of seeing legitimate arguments, they will see nothing but a hateful response. They will not want to converse. They will not want to discuss. Treated like children, they'll walk away from the argument. They'll become resentful. They'll avoid confrontation, and instead become more resolute in what their detractors believe is an ignorant opinion. And that's deadly to what little discourse we have left in America.

Conservatives are walking away from the discussion left and right and they're going to begin to not even show up. Bad things will happen if they stop showing up. Very bad things.

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

Flamingo House Happenings ( http://www.flamingohouse.net/ )