Going to Restaurants With Kids: Let Parents Leave the House!

I'm a Canadian living in Turkey, and there is such a difference between the two countries in restaurants- When we take our two year old out to a restaurant here, she is generally very well behaved, but if she isn't, there is never a problem. It seems like in every restaurant we go to, (family style or not) there is always a waiter who will distract her and play with her, or an older couple giving a sympathetic look or another child who wants to play with her. In this country a child is seen as a child and allowed to act as such. We've only been back to Canada twice since she was born, (both flights when surprisingly very well considering how long they were) but during both trips, everytime we went out to eat with her, we could help but feel a difference in the attitudes towards bring a child into a restaurant. But how can a child learn to behave in a restaurant if parents can not take them to one and teach them?
Lori

www.afamilyslife.blogspot.com ( http://www.afamilyslife.blogspot.com )

As a single, no-baby lady, with no plans on ever becoming a mommy - I can see both sides.

Having said that, I have changed my intolerant ways (a bit) lately. Of course, I didn't see my intolerance until a close friend had a baby of her own. Now, through her, I've experienced the anxiety prior to taking a baby on an airplane, and trying to eat somewhere without getting the stink-eye.

At the same time, I think a lot of parents have babies, and then can't remember what it was like to be at the restaurant without kids. A few years back, a restaurant opened in my city that was the first of its kind. It was a classier place and did not allow children. Immediately parents were up in arms at this discrimination. (Within a year it did start allowing children - but even now, it's mostly kid-free.)

Now, maybe I'll face backlash for this - but why is it such a big deal? It's one eatery out of hundreds that won't allow you to bring along children. There are plenty of nice places in town for you to bring your offspring, if you so choose. So why be angry at the places that discourage families? It's my understanding that they're so very few and far between.

If the ignorant adults who don't want to spend a meal with children want a place to go, why not let them have one? Or two? Why should childless people have to duck into the Lounge side of restaurants so that they can avoid loud kids?

Sure, adults can be just as bad. We've all witnessed some douchebag treat a waitress terribly. Or some loud jerk regaling the whole room with his latest escapade. The difference between adults and children? You can tell that adult to stuff it, or keep it down. Could you imagine an adult walking up to a kid and telling them to try to keep down the volume?

I'm not saying parents should stay locked away at home because they've decided to have children. Definitely not. I think parents need to go out there, and bring their children, so they can teach them how to act in public. They can teach them how to order for themselves, not stare at fat people, and countless other life lessons. Should you bring your still-too-young-to-understand child to a nice restaurant? Especially when they're teething? Maybe not. I'm not saying you need to regulate yourselves to Denny's, but try to put yourselves in our shoes.

And I'll do my best to remember where you're coming from, the next time your kid projectile vomits in the restaurant.

No really, that happened.
(And for the record, I felt so bad for the parent. How awkward a moment is that?! I still can't eat Hot and Sour Soup though...)

As someone who does not have children, I wanted to address the other side - not all of us DO immediately cringe at the site of children out in public! Unfortunately, my response got a little long-winded so I posted about it here ( http://www.girlyfight.com/?p=364 ).

Really? Do some people think parents with children should stay home? Are they the owner's of the businesses in question? This is way out of line. If you are so delicate as to require an unsullied atmosphere, dine in private. Having said that, I do think it is only kind to make sure your offspring are up to the task of dining out - timing matters as do expectations and sometimes plain old luck. If everyone is considerate of one another this should all work out.

I agree totaly with Shannon. When my daughter (now 23) was young I was always prepared to keep her busy. Some days that was just not going to work. At that point it was time for me to be an ADULT and respect those around me by removing her from the area. No threats as I love to hear...."Johnny if you don't stop we're leaving" as a running commentary that is never fulfilled. What are you teaching the child other than that as a parent you can not be trusted to live up to your word. If removing her once did not work, then we where doggy bagging the meal. It only took once for that to happen and she was aware that even if Grammy was there she still needed to be a socially acceptable little person. Additionally when she was old enough to understand if she chose to throw food on the floor, I pulled out my little plastic gloves, an empty plastic grocery bag, and set her to cleaning up her mess off the floor. That also only happened once. She is a well adjusted woman who worked her way thru college and has graduated with honors. She didn't suffer trauma, she learned to be responsible for her actions, and to trust what her parents told her.

Interesting article in the WaPo: "New baby boom fosters culture clash: Parents vs. public space."

http://bit.ly/cm7Eo0

Pop Culture C.E. for BlogHer
Blogs at: The Grub Report ( http://www.grubreport.com ) and KQED's Bay Area Bites ( http://blogs.kqed.org/bayareabites/ )

Oh, yes, it's a great piece by Michael. Thanks for linking, Shannon. My dad's an attorney in Minneapolis and he's constantly telling other lawyers in meetings to stop playing with their Blackberries and listen to what he's saying.

It's unbelievable how rude and stupid people have become.

Pop Culture C.E. for BlogHer
Blogs at: The Grub Report ( http://www.grubreport.com ) and KQED's Bay Area Bites ( http://blogs.kqed.org/bayareabites/ )

This is very much my point: "So let me just say this: you don't know that family's story."

We really have no idea what is going on in any individual family, so we all really could stand to exercise a little more tolerance and understanding than we do on a regular basis.

Pop Culture C.E. for BlogHer
Blogs at: The Grub Report ( http://www.grubreport.com ) and KQED's Bay Area Bites ( http://blogs.kqed.org/bayareabites/ )

Stephanie, you've probably already seen your co-Bay Area Biteser Michael Procopio's rant about rude diners & their Blackberries/iPhones, but just in case your readers haven't - it's delicious:

http://blogs.kqed.org/bayareabites/2008/04/04/wher... ( http://blogs.kqed.org/bayareabites/2008/04/04/wher... )

Shannon Des Roches Rosa
Squidalicious.com ( http://www.squidalicious.com ) parenting first, autism second
CanISitWithYou.org ( http://www.canisitwithyou.org )
real tales of schoolyard terror and triumph

We can and do dine out politely with our kids, in nice restaurants with grandparents, with my boisterous son even. We have a game plan for keeping them engaged that tapers off as they get older and are expected to be able to join in the conversation - either materials like the My Busy Kits (www.MyBusyKits.com ( http://www.MyBusyKits.com ), a local mom's business, fantastic auntie/friend gift), or books, drawing paper, iPod Touch if we get desperate. And we have an entire backpack of activities for my son. The amount of redirection depends on the extent to which the kids are expected to talk with us and our guests - and, again, their age.

Many times those screaming kids are unhappy about being in the restaurant in the first place. We usually have extra activities, paper, etc. to offer in those cases; you'd be amazed by how often the kids just want something to do. Restaurants are boring!

Personally don't tolerate any screaming at all. My kids scream, they are outside - instantly, until they stop. Then we try again. More screaming, we go home. And I avoid families with small children if my children aren't with me. :)

Shannon Des Roches Rosa
Squidalicious.com ( http://www.squidalicious.com ) parenting first, autism second
CanISitWithYou.org ( http://www.canisitwithyou.org )
real tales of schoolyard terror and triumph

I've encountered more obnoxious adults out and about than children--and children actually have an excuse of still being a social apprentice. Adults, on the other hand, should know better than to talk loudly on their cell phone in a restaurant or have an argument in a restaurant or cheer loudly in the bar area of a restaurant while they watch a game, making it impossible for people at nearby tables to talk. And, at the same time, I don't have expectations that my time out of the house will be anything like my time in the house. When I step outside, I expect to encounter obnoxious adults and loud, rambunctious children. Hence why I go to the restaurant with the bar and expect that it will not be a relaxing meal as it would be at home. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

The way we berate children (and the parents of said children) would be unacceptable if we used the same terms to describe another section of the population. Could you imagine bitching about wheelchairs in the same way people bitch about people clogging up the aisle with strollers? Or rolling our eyes at someone with hearing aids and complaining that they speak too loudly in the same way we talk about a child's voice? There are reasons why children act the way they do, and it's not always under the control of the parents.

Just my thoughts as someone with naturally quiet kids who luckily doesn't get many people annoyed with me in public, but who also knows that those quiet kids are the luck-of-the-draw and not something entirely within my control.

Melissa writes Stirrup Queens ( http://stirrup-queens.com ) and Lost and Found ( http://lostandfoundandconnectionsabound.blogspot.c... ). Her book is Navigating the Land of If ( http://thelandofif.blogspot.com/ ).

I appreciate this article very much. My son is usually the loud one at a restaurant. Happy, but loud. And generally he is well-received. He is also sometimes that child who is hitting, kicking, throwing, and even to my horror, jumping into the booth next to us on our last trip out.

The thing is, he has Fragile X Syndrome -- mental retardation, autism, ADHD, and sensory disorder. Yes, it would be easier to leave him home. But one, I have no money for a sitter, two I like spending time with him, and three, I think it's important for him to learn how to behave in places like restaurants and stores.

He's not going to grow out of being hyperactive or autistic, so we both have to find ways for him to manage IN society -- not outside of it.

He does not sit and color, but he will sit and play with playdoh, so I carry that in my purse along with a few other small toys. And I have a magic option on my phone to let him watch cartoons if things get really bad. He loves salad, too, so I'll order him one with our drinks and that keeps his hands busy while he waits. It's a learning process.

The hard part is that he looks like a typical kid, he looks too old to be doing some of the things he does, and people pass judgements. So let me just say this: you don't know that family's story. And if you see a mom REALLY, truly struggling, maybe you could ask if she needs help.

http://www.theotherlion.blogspot.com

If I had been on your plane, I would have tried every way I could to help you and the babe.

I'm resolved to do that in the future. If I can't help, at least I want to tell other parents, "Hey, you did good. Don't worry about it. Hope you get some rest tonight." (Those that deserve it, of course. I'm not talking about the ones who clearly don't give a shit what their kids are doing.)

Solo cross-country? You're seriously my hero.

Pop Culture C.E. for BlogHer
Blogs at: The Grub Report ( http://www.grubreport.com ) and KQED's Bay Area Bites ( http://blogs.kqed.org/bayareabites/ )

One of the greatest gifts kids can receive is the understanding of anothers personal space. And how to respect it. Along with indoor/outdoor behavior and voices. Oh, yes.

One Friday night, I loaded up my life and headed out... ( http://isledance.blogspot.com )

I returned last night from a cross-country solo trip with my 1 year-old. The way out was relatively smooth, but coming home, my overtired baby had a screamfest that lasted about 45 minutes.

I was mortified and exhausted, but nothing I did could calm him down. And yes, I had plenty of dirty looks and eyerolls.

Anyway, the timing of your post couldn't have been more perfect... thanks. I needed to read that today!

Kayleen
www.chipandbobo.com ( http://www.chipandbobo.com )

I can really relate to Dee's comment on this one. I lived in Spain for years and both my kids were born there. Kids are so accepted there, in all types of situations, and family and community is paramount. Now I'm in North America I see a real difference. Hate to say it but I think it's a knock-on effect of the me, me, me, attitude. As in MY comfort and convenience is more important than that of a child/infant/anyone else. In more collective, less individualistic cultures, there's a lot more tolerance, understanding and appreciation of children and families living their lives, out in the community along with everyone else (by which I guess I mean the single and child-free, who don't necessarily have more right to live their life than someone who just happens to be producing and raising the next generation).

Karen Banes  (@writeandchange ( http://twitter.com/writeandchange )) blogs at ChangeTheWorldWithWords.com ( http://www.changetheworldwithwords.com/ )

And I still don't want to hear ANY crying or fussing. Take them out. If they can't sit and be good they have no business in public at all. This is just like all the rudeness in general that has become ok. Playing you car stereo so everyone has to hear your music, talking loud on you cell phone so everyone must hear your conversation, talking in the movies etc etc. People used to believe in consideration of others. The entitlement generation has ruined all that. One is entitled to be in public with thier child that can't behave.

I definitely have a much different opinion now that I'm a mom. A little crying or fussing isn't going to make me look askance but parents who totally ignore their kids' meltdowns or allow them to run around in restaurants are complete assholes. I mean, really. It's obviously a subjective issue but you should know when your kid is ruining everyone's meal. Some people just don't care and they give the rest of us a bad reputation.

Like the parents of a toddler on a recent flight I took. I know full well that tantrums are hard but this kid would not get out of the aisle and into his seat so the plane could take off. And the parents were not doing anything to help. The flight attendants were warning the parents that they would all have to deboard if they couldn't get him under control. It sucks but I think that in this case, physically picking up the 2 year old and strapping him into his seat would send him a message. Sometimes they do just have to do what they're told.

Still, I try not to take my kids out to fancier restaurants unless absolutely necessary. Not for the sake of other diners but because it's just not a lot of fun for me having to wrangle the two year old through cocktails and several courses. Or pay for food that they're probably not going to try. I don't enjoy it much so until he can behave as well as his six year old sister or try more varied foods, he's better off with a sitter or at home. I've heard many different opinions on this, for example, my mom keeps telling me that I need to take him out more so he "gets used to being in restaurants." Fine, except my husband and I don't go out to eat much so I don't see the need to make special trips just to socialize my kids.

http://www.superdumbsupervillain.com/

Give the NYC critic a giant Huzzah --
Adults are WAY worse than children in many (*most*?) situations that involve good manners and civility.

Alyson
www.commonsense-dancing.com ( http://www.commonsense-dancing.com )

Well that was certainly worth the price of our pasta dish right?

I agree with the points in the Salon article as well (although I don't have enough experience with Upper West Side kid so I'll pass on that one) - it comes down to the parents. I wonder if they're the same ones who were the rude, boorish, drunkenly loud table in the restaurant who ruined everyone's meal back in their single days. Inconsiderate is inconsiderate whether you've spawned or not.

Interestingly, whenever we're in restaurants in the city and we see children permitted to run around after the meal, the parents rarely seem to be American. It's generally some well-dressed, laid-back European couples who just wants to enjoy their demi-tasses of espresso in peace while the kids get their crazies out underfoot of the busboy. Is this a cultural thing? Or maybe my limited experience?

Since becoming a parent though, I'm less annoyed by it, and more worried about the safety of the child. Those plates are hot. And heavy.

Making millions at Mom-101 ( http://mom-101.com )
( http://coolmompicks.com )

Cool Mom Picks ( http://coolmompicks.com )

I myself have no kids, although I absolutely adore children. I have worked in restaurants for years, and I'm ecstatic when people bring in their babies because it brightens my day. There are, however, two issues that are very serious, from my perspective, that need to be addressed when dining out with kids.

1. Most important is SAFETY. It is not only bad parenting to let your children sprint around the restaurant; it is extremely dangerous. Just tonight, we had a child run face first into a cabinet because her parents ignored her running around. Also, waiters carry very heavy trays laden with steaming plates and beverages, and we can't always see the smallest kids running underfoot. It's annoying to other patrons, and it's a very real threat to children's safety.

2. Wait times: My restaurant routinely quotes an hour+ wait times for large parties. When families come in hungry and agree to wait an hour, they have no idea how long that will actually be. Then, they visit the hostess every five minutes to ask how much longer it will be "because the kids are getting restless." Of course they're restless, they're starving and have to wait over an hour to eat! Feel free to bring some snacks for them or to say "no thanks" to the wait-list; but please don't blame us for making you wait exactly as long as we said you'd wait because your kids are starving and cranky.

And other than that, honestly, I don't think we have any biases against people bringing kids in! We're happy for all the business we can get in this economy, and we love smiling at your adorable children. We just want them to stay safe and happy. And if the children are well-versed in saying "please" and "thank you"? It honestly turns any bad night into one of the best nights ever.

Ooh, this one is a hot button issue for me for sure!

From day one (or day 5, if you want to be exact), we've taken our kids out to restaurants, movies, and various other places that so many new parents seem to think are no longer options for them. I have very strict expectations for my kids when we go out like that, but we definitely DO go out. The result? Kids who have learned how to behave in nice restaurants, without disturbing me or other diners.

I admit I don't have much patience for ill-mannered children in restaurants or elsewhere, but I would rather see them out and TRYING to teach their kids how to behave instead of going crazy staying home!

-- mom of 2, life insurance writer ( http://www.americalifequotes.com/ ), avid restaurant diner!

Yep, that's pretty bad behavior.

However, I would hazard that parents that are late with kids were also probably the people who were late sans kids. Those are people who are perpetually late and make no excuses for it other than, "That's who I am." I'm willing to bet that even without kids, they've made planes of people wait for them a time or two.

There definitely are parents that would make me fear for the
human race they are bringing up, but there are plenty of non-parents that make me fear that, too. I've witnessed a lot of rude flyers or restaurant patrons, but they don't make me think that *every* (or even the majority) flyer or restaurant patron is going to talk loudly on their cell phone or get drunk on the plane or abuse the waitress or flight attendant.

That's why the idea of "some bad parental apples make the rest of you look bad" sucks so hard, because I don't apply those same strictures to rude non-parents, so why should bad behaving parents garner less tolerance just because they are parents?

Pop Culture C.E. for BlogHer
Blogs at: The Grub Report ( http://www.grubreport.com ) and KQED's Bay Area Bites ( http://blogs.kqed.org/bayareabites/ )

Steph, I totally agree with most of what you are saying here. As a single, parentless, child-loving adult, most of the issues you discuss here don't bug me. Babies crying in restaurants? Usually don't bother me in the least. Kids talking loudly while waiting for their food? No problem. I'm usually happy to see kids in restaurants for the exact reasons that Sietsema cites.

Kids on planes don't bother me when they are fussy or wriggly or generally kid-like travelers. I'm generally pretty dang tolerant of all of that.

However, there are some parents who ruin it for the rest of y'all. These parents make my blood pressure rise while traveling. I travel a fair amount, and in the past 6 months I have been witness to:

1) Legions of parents who are the last on the plane, arriving late with children, babies and all their gear. I *know* that not all these parents had an emergency that caused them to arrive late. They just refuse to adjust their schedules and arrive early so that they can get settled in and make for a more comfortable experience for their family and all the other passengers.

2) A woman who had a middle seat, cross country, with an infant who berated me for not wanting to change my aisle seat with her middle seat because I was single and she had a child. She didn't know anything about me, why I needed to sit in the aisle, or care why I wouldn't switch seats with her. Instead, she saw a single person who should be sitting in a middle seat for 6 hours because I was childless.

3) Parents of two children who *yelled* at a flight attendant this week for refusing to ask other passengers to move so they could sit together, held up an hour-late flight even longer so they could get the passengers to move themselves, and seemed to hold themselves in higher regard than all the other passengers who arrived on time, pre-set our seats, and handled flying in an orderly manner.

You can see that I never complained above about the children on those flights -- they were all fine. It was the parents in each and every situation who were unbearable.

Traveling with kids takes a little more planning. It means you're going to have to make reservations in advance to get the seats you need, arrive early, and be a little more prepared than all of us.

You would never be a passenger like this, and neither are any of my friends. But there are very legitimate reasons that some of us squirm a bit when we see families getting on a plane.

--

Jennifer J Maiser

Life Begins @ Thirty | www.lifebeginsat30.com ( http://www.lifebeginsat30.com )
Eat Local Challenge | www.eatlocalchallenge.com ( http://www.eatlocalchallenge.com )

"You can vote with your fork and you can do it three times a day." -- Michael Pollan

I really liked the compliment that couple gave in the Mom 101 article you linked to too. I've had to travel alone with my baby daughter twice, and was filled with dread just like you, but I was pleasantly surprised by how nice many people were to me. Sure, I had a few people who didn't look pleased to see us, but I had one guy tell me after the flight that I was doing an excellent job as a mom, and other people tell me that my daughter was so well behaved and cute, etc. And it's not like she was a silent angel the whole time!

Since becoming a mom, I go out of my way to compliment people on their parenting skills or the behavior of their children. My daughter is very high energy and can be hard to contain, so I know how nice those compliments can be.

I don't go out to a restaurant and pay my hard earned money to experience anyone's poorly behaved kids. When I was growing up children were not taken to restaurants nicer than Denny’s. As I look back I think there were several reasons for this. First of all I think people spent their money differently then and they didn’t spend it on children in a nice restaurant. If they had the money to go to a nice restaurant it was like date night or a get together with adult friends. Secondly I think it was understood among adults that “I want to enjoy a nice restaurant experience without kids, I won’t bring mine don’t bring yours.” Also back then if a child acted up anywhere you took them out, out of the coffee shop, out of the grocery store or out of Wal-Mart, immediately if not sooner. It was a commonly held belief that you didn’t impose your crying acting up kid on other people out of nothing more than common courtesy and consideration for your fellow adult. In my experience, it only took one or two times, next time you just said “do you want to go outside” and problem solved. Not a lot can be done about a baby on a plane but anywhere else take the baby out. Parents that can’t get a child older than a baby to behave on a plane don’t have any control over their kids anywhere and have no business taking them on a plane and subjecting the rest of us to their children’s poor behavior, stay home. The judgemental looks parents are getting is the result of the many lazy parents that let thier kids cry/act up and ignore it and expect the rest of us to also.

I hate that parents are relegated to family-style restaurants with crappy food.

I make an effort to keep my children in their seats and well-behaved in restaurants, but some days are better than others, and I'm always gratified by the patience of those around me.

However, when we brought our first child home from Russia, the child crying for nearly the entire 8 hours was mine. The dirty looks we got made we wonder if people thought I was making him cry.

At one point I got him calmer and quieter and nearly asleep and the flight attendent stuck a lollipop in front of his face without asking me. Once he was done with the treat I had to start all over again.

- Lisse

@ Home in the World: International Adoption and Other Travels ( http://homeintheworld.typepad.com )

Oh, do I have an opinion on this!!! I have 3 girls, ages 11, 9, and 4. I have never hesitated to take any and all of them to any restaurant, or anywhere else in public, including airplanes, and have been complimented many times on their behavior. Recently I took my girls and my parents to a local Japanese restaurant for dinner, and had my mind completely blown. My first clue that this was going to be a bad experience was the fact that there was a sign over every table stating: "We love children, but please make sure yours behave and use their indoor voices." EVERY. TABLE.
Then my father, who is as mild mannered as they come, mentioned that the owner was staring at us and making him extremely uncomfortable. And then, the kicker. My 4 year old had dropped EXACTLY 3 grains of rice on the floor in the process of eating. The waitress walked over DURING our meal and proceeded to pick them up. Feeling awkward, I stated that I would be happy to pick that up once we were done, and she ignored me, looked at my daughter and said, "You're a MESSY little girl, AREN'T you?" I almost lost it. I asked for the bill, we paid and left, and haven't been back since. The local reviews of this restaurant suggest that many others have had similar experiences. I know that most restaurants aren't like this, but I had to vent, and I am DEFINITELY a believer in family dinner outings. How do kids learn how to behave in public if they're never taken out in it?

I couldn't agree more. Parents deserve a meal out every now and again and they are entitled to take their children with them should the desire to do so. Additionally, children will never learn how to behave in a restaurant unless they are exposed to one.

Fortunately for us living in Vermont, we have many wonderful restaurants that provide a some "distraction" for little ones who just can't sit still so parents can catch up on more than just a few moments of uninterrupted peace:

http://blog.findandgoseek.net/2010/05/restaurants-... ( http://blog.findandgoseek.net/2010/05/restaurants-... )

Best,

Dana Freeman
Miss Magpie
dana@findandgoseek.net
802-233-9709
Vermont's Insider Guide to Kid Friendly Fun
http://www.findandgoseek.net/

There is only one kid in a plane story that I remember to tell. This is why it sticks in my memory: After about 20 minutes of a young kid (not baby) kicking my seat hard, non-stop behind me (like swinging his legs like a pendulum kind of kicking), I turned round and very politely asked the adults with him if they might be able to stop him from doing it. Their response floored me. "He can do what he wants. We can't stop him. He's a child". They didn't even make an attempt to teach him some respect for other people. That left me speechless.

Thanks for posting this Stephanie - it is a perspective we childless people can learn from.

As for being a perfect traveler when I was a kid? Well - that's a funny thought - my parents couldn't even afford a car for the longest time, let alone a plane ticket. I didn't fly until i was a teen. How things have changed. Now we all take flying more for granted, perhaps?

I can tell you I was probably a pain in the arse on long car journeys, though!

Becks & Posh ( http://becksposhnosh.blogspot.com/ )@Sixy
( http://becksposhnosh.blogspot.com/ )

That's really great to hear, Dee. Now if I could just get over getting on a plane, maybe we could make some use of that European goodwill!

Pop Culture C.E. for BlogHer
Blogs at: The Grub Report ( http://www.grubreport.com ) and KQED's Bay Area Bites ( http://blogs.kqed.org/bayareabites/ )

I know, right? I have to admit, I was getting scarily judgmental before the baby arrived and it's not that I'm without blame in that area now, I just am better about trying to have more patience and seeing people's lives from all angles possible.

Pop Culture C.E. for BlogHer
Blogs at: The Grub Report ( http://www.grubreport.com ) and KQED's Bay Area Bites ( http://blogs.kqed.org/bayareabites/ )

Enjoyed this read. I've traveled and dined with my two daughters, now 8 and 11, their whole lives. IMO, it is about modeling and expectations on the parents part, but it also takes practice and patience and many stressful experiences to figure out what works for you and your kids.

Your sentence, "The intolerance I see, hear, or read about makes me wonder if our society is more and more anti-kids or just completely without patience or understanding," hit the mark with me. If everyone just took a deep breathe and considered the parent doesn't want the kid screaming anymore than they do, everyone would be a little less stressed.

We just returned from a year living in Spain with our kids, and we ate and traveled our way everywhere with them, and with all of the locals kids too. In Spain and many parts of the world, kids are expected and appreciated and everyone enjoys.

Dee Andrews  Travel and Travails   www.travelandtravails.com ( http://www.travelandtravails.com/ )

I hear you! A little empathy with another person's journey would go a long way in this world.

Best,

Margee Moore

Blogger at www.moxiemom.com ( http://www.moxiemom.com/ ) and author of the iPhone app, Sleeping With the Laundry: Notes from the Mommy Track.  A five star star rated app.