Letterman vs. Palin -- More Media Sexism or Just Tasteless Humor?

If you want to argue that Letterman should watch what he says overall for the sake of humanity and as a stand against sexism that damages society, then you've got a winning argument.  If you start throwing in the kids have access to everything argument , you're opening the door to arguing for a speech-controlled world in which nobody should ever say antyhing unless it's suitable for Sesame Street's demographic.

Finally, I don't think Letterman's most recent apology was lame. He admits he's made a living by taking cheap shots and that he crossed the line.  

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ).

Sorry I was out of town this weekend and wasn't able to chime in until now on this conversation following my post.

Humor is an individual thing, but in some sense sexism is not. While putting yourself on a national stage of course makes one a subject for jokes, it does not, in my opinion, make it OK for the jokes to cross the line into sexism. Sometimes that's a hard line to see and sometimes it's pretty easy.

In this day and age of 24/7 media and when things get played over and over again in prime time, I just don't buy any argument that something wasn't intended to be shown at a time when younger kids can see it -- access is everywhere no matter how hard we try to keep things from our children.

As for Palin, I'm no fan and I would be happy for her to fade into the Alaskan sunset. But I deeply believe that when sexism is at issue, we owe it to each other as women -- regardless of our political persuasions -- to speak out for one another.

Even if one argues that the Palin family has been hypocritical in how they present themselves, it's still no excise for the kind of jokes that Letterman told or for the lame and half-hearted "apologies" he has issued.

I have really really enjoyed reading your POV on this subject. Specifically, the Palin joke is not something I've invested much time in.

You have an insider's, and behind the scenes perspective that I have not be exposed to.

Being able to make fun of people with "more advantages" than you was frequent in Last Comic Standing's Jeff Blue's work. He was hilarious. He really made people look at what we laugh at, why we laugh at it, and when/if it's okay to laugh.

Anywho, I would think that Alex Rodriquez would stand just as much of a shot at being upset and angry over the Letterman joke, implying that he can't control himself around a 14-year-old girl. (is that something based on facts I haven't heard of? Highly possible, as distant as I keep myself from these things) But I haven't heard anyone outraged for him, or his honor, or hispanic males, or sports stars or etc....

Thanks for giving me something to kick around! Congrats on the up-coming birth of your daughter!

Letterman's taken the easy way for a very long time. I hope his joke writers work a little harder in the future.

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

Flamingo House Happenings ( http://www.flamingohouse.net/ )

More than anything, I think Letterman is guilty of lazy comedy . Really, taking pot shots at teen girls, oneof who got pregnant ( hee,hee!), is just lazy comedy by a guy with a roomful of Emmy's and a roomful of male writers. He went for an easy laugh, not a well-earned one.

Then... it spilled over into creepy for me. Older guys making jokes about the sex lives of teen girls is creepy. I don't care if its a politician's daught, Brittany Spears, the Olsen twins or the cast of HIgh School Musical. I think if Dave watched himself back on tape, he may see how creepy it sounded. Or his wife should tell him.

Following the route of Imus and countless media personalities before,  a joke about sex is always the easy way out. Dave took it, got caught, and earned all the backlash. Maybe now, he and his well-paid staff of middle-aged men will try a little harder on the monologue and stay away from people's daughters. 

Keep it up, PunditMom.

 all the best, Lian Dolan

SatelliteSisterLian

www.satellitesisters.com ( http://www.satellitesisters.com/ )

www.chaoschronicles.com ( http://www.chaoschronicles.com )

I had started to include some thoughts on why Rodriquez doesn't seem to have any real stake in this discussion, or rather that he doesn't seem to be actively participating in it.

Does Rodriguez "deserve" to be joked about this way because... he's a man? he's a sports figure? Because he's had some errr relationship issues?

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

Flamingo House Happenings ( http://www.flamingohouse.net/ )

As I said somewhere in here my issue isn't so much with Letterman - he is who he is or is who he has evolved into being.

My issue is really with how some people have given Dave a pass because Palin deserves it, Bristol deserves it... due to their sexuality, their political and social opinions or anything else.

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

Flamingo House Happenings ( http://www.flamingohouse.net/ )

Thank you, Mata. 

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ).

I've seen some posts on this topic, how women tear down women, including the Hillary issue and the Palin attacks. But you're right, it's not talked about as much.

There's a similar discussion in the black community and among other minorities regarding how hard people of the group are on members of the group who excel beyond the tradtional group boundaries, and it's sometimes called "the crab mentality ( http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cra... )." When Oprah was on the rise, black women were very hard on her at first.

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ).

Yes, Denise. You're a very high profile Palin supporter. I stand behind all my "somes," using the modifier precisely because I'm aware of people like you, but I'm far more aware of the Palin supporters who defended the ugliness of her racist rhetoric during the campaign and have defended anything she says no matter how ridiculous, who scream her critics are sexist even when those critics are merely criticizing her policies and hot mess who probably never even used the words "sexist" or "sexism" until they wanted to get McCain/Palin in office.

And yes, I'm aware that there are "some" progressives who can never admit when their own cross the line.

Some Palin supporters only see sexism when it's Palin and every other woman be damned.  I like you, but not some of the politics you support. I don't like Palin period. Yet nothing I've said gives David Letterman a pass, including the fact that his audience is not children.

Should have clarified that the "eye for an eye" is in reference to the continued calls for Letterman to lose his job even after Palin's accepted the apology.  Are you on that train? 

BTW, Letterman's slut joke, saying Palin dresses like a slutty stewardess--would it have been sexist if he'd said she dresses like a Barbie Doll?  I need clarification on this because, you know, is it like a black thing--racist if a white person says it but not racist if a black person says it: Sexist if a man comments on Palin's clothes but not sexist if a woman says it? Come on, somebody give us a score card!

When a woman says it is it self-hate or honest commentary? What if the woman who said it is a fashion expert?

I'll be glad when I'm dead and don't have to deal with all these "isms." 

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ).

I like your essay.  I think it makes some excellent points and I agree that the joke was in poor taste.  I appreciate Letterman's apology.

That said, it is not just the media, conservatives, men that are guilty of promoting sexist comments and jokes.  During the election I was apalled by the number of liberal, FEMALE bloggers who ripped Palin apart at a very personal level.  She was described as that bitchy woman who takes away your husband, is overly aggressive, and the popular girl we all wanted to pull down.  In many posts there were few references to her actual political agenda.  It was all about personal attacks.

I've seen conservative women do the same to Hillary for years.  Any woman who shows political ambition gets ripped apart on a personal level in a way men are never subjected to.  And more often than not it's women doing the attacking.

If we as women cannot refrain from this kind of attack, how can men, media, etc. be expected too.  It frustrates me greatly and is an issue I have not seen addressed (except in the context of Republican women being disrespected and bullied by their own party.  Not the same thing.).

Now, please, when will Sarah Palin go away? She's bouncing checks at the 15 Minutes of Fame Bank.

Nordette, there are moments that your turn of phrase makes me stand back in awe.

~~ Contributing Editor, Mata H. also blogs right along at Time's Fool ( http://timesfool.blogspot.com )

You open that kids shouldn't be watching Letterman... I would agree, to a point. A 14 year old girl babysitting on a Friday night will be up watching Letterman.

And for those kids who aren't up watching Letterman, we all see Dave's top 10 lists the next day. We all see his Stupid Human Tricks in the paper, hear them on the radio, etc. Letterman's jokes don't just stay in the late night TV.

Some people who are Palin fans do care that Letterman's making jokes about Octomom. And some Palin fans will yell ageism. And some Palin fans are appalled by the gorilla joke (particularly this Palin fan from S.C.)

As for Palin's supporters, they've got this eye for an eye thing down. Clearly they've read the Old Testament a lot. Palin's accepted Letterman's apology, but her supporters won't let it go.

Palin supporter here, I know that still puzzles folks. ;-)

I'm not an eye for an eye kind of person, though I have read a good bit of the old Testament which is probably why I'm not a Christian woman now that I think about it. Hah.

I'd be happy to let it go when I stop hearing folks within my circle say things like "she had it coming"...

;-)

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

Flamingo House Happenings ( http://www.flamingohouse.net/ )

My only objection to your argument is that any parent who has a child up late at night watching David Letterman needs his or her head examined. Unlike the Burger King commercial, Letterman is targeting the adult funny bone not selling products to kiddies with a kiddie icon.

Full apology transcript is below from a Huffington Post article that makes the point that other comedians have joked about Bristol often, but this is the first time any of them have gotten this kind of flack, and that assertion supports your case, PunditMom, that we let these kinds of jokes slide too much. We should not defend Letterman's bad joke just because we don't like Palin any more than those who support Republicans should excuse Rusty DePass's "joke" about Michelle Obama and gorillas ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com/2009/06/gop-gorrillas-... ). Palin's a woman too, and we'll never forget it. I do believe that was the point of McCain selecting her as his running mate. "Vote for me because ain't she a woman too."

Neverthless, I'm fairly sure that some people who are Palin fans would care less if Letterman, who has an Octomom joke almost every show lately, made this joke about some other unwed mother ( http://www.blogher.com/bristol-palin-hypocrisy-ove... ) or, for that matter, another girl Willow's age from a family whose politics they don't espouse. We may also consider that because we wink at sexism and have a tendency to blame young women for their pregnancies as though no male was present, if Willow had not been at the game, only a few people would be talking about Letterman's joke because most people would have assumed the joke was about Bristol and not been so outraged.

Here's Letterman:

"All right, here - I've been thinking about this situation with Governor Palin and her family now for about a week - it was a week ago tonight, and maybe you know about it, maybe you don't know about it. But there was a joke that I told, and I thought I was telling it about the older daughter being at Yankee Stadium. And it was kind of a coarse joke. There's no getting around it, but I never thought it was anybody other than the older daughter, and before the show, I checked to make sure in fact that she is of legal age, 18. Yeah. But the joke really, in and of itself, can't be defended. The next day, people are outraged. They're angry at me because they said, 'How could you make a lousy joke like that about the 14-year-old girl who was at the ball game?' And I had, honestly, no idea that the 14-year-old girl, I had no idea that anybody was at the ball game except the Governor and I was told at the time she was there with Rudy Giuliani...And I really should have made the joke about Rudy..." (audience applauds) "But I didn't, and now people are getting angry and they're saying, 'Well, how can you say something like that about a 14-year-old girl, and does that make you feel good to make those horrible jokes about a kid who's completely innocent, minding her own business,' and, turns out, she was at the ball game. I had no idea she was there. So she's now at the ball game and people think that I made the joke about her. And, but still, I'm wondering, 'Well, what can I do to help people understand that I would never make a joke like this?' I've never made jokes like this as long as we've been on the air, 30 long years, and you can't really be doing jokes like that. And I understand, of course, why people are upset. I would be upset myself.

"And then I was watching the Jim Lehrer 'Newshour' - this commentator, the columnist Mark Shields, was talking about how I had made this indefensible joke about the 14-year-old girl, and I thought, 'Oh, boy, now I'm beginning to understand what the problem is here. It's the perception rather than the intent.' It doesn't make any difference what my intent was, it's the perception. And, as they say about jokes, if you have to explain the joke, it's not a very good joke. And I'm certainly - " (audience applause) "- thank you. Well, my responsibility - I take full blame for that. I told a bad joke. I told a joke that was beyond flawed, and my intent is completely meaningless compared to the perception. And since it was a joke I told, I feel that I need to do the right thing here and apologize for having told that joke. It's not your fault that it was misunderstood, it's my fault. That it was misunderstood." (audience applauds) "Thank you. So I would like to apologize, especially to the two daughters involved, Bristol and Willow, and also to the Governor and her family and everybody else who was outraged by the joke. I'm sorry about it and I'll try to do better in the future. Thank you very much." (audience applause)

I added the bolding.

For a while now, long before this incident, Letterman's been poking fun at himself as the doddering, forgetful old man. (Anybody going to scream ageism when he moves from his age to another person's age?) So, I believe that he didn't know Bristol from Palin or that either daughter was at the ball game. And I think he owns up to it being a horrible joke either way when he apologized to all three Palin females.

I agree that Letterman should not have made the joke and it was sexist. However, I also think that Palin placed Bristol on the altar of ambition. She had to know the spotlight would blister the teen. But just like I don't think men should be allowed to grope a woman whenever they feel like it with the excuse she was wearing a short skirt and a plunging neckline, I don't think we should let people slide when they make sexist remarks. Still, people laugh at what they feel is funny and that's their right.

Now, please, when will Sarah Palin go away? She's bouncing checks at the 15 Minutes of Fame Bank.

As for Palin's supporters, they've got this eye for an eye thing down. Clearly they've read the Old Testament a lot. Palin's accepted Letterman's apology, but her supporters won't let it go.

The video below is edited. I think HuffPo has the whole thing ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/15/letterman... ).

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ).

Hi Kristy...

I think it is a wavy line, yanno? I would say that it is unkind to deliberately hurt someone, and not funny to me.

I think, for example, about ethnic or racial "humor". Sometimes someone might think it funny to hear a joke about "stupid -fill in the blank here-" Stupid Mexicans, Polish people, whatever...I think that humor is bigotry in disguise. I guess, now that you ask, that intent is the line -- a "joke" which has as its intent (consciously or not) to humiliate or hurt someone isn't funny because it feeds some ugly stuff out there.

~~ Contributing Editor, Mata H. also blogs right along at Time's Fool ( http://timesfool.blogspot.com )

Palin annoyed me from the outset by making her kids such a huge part of her campaign. I know the Obama girls were also covered in the media, but for the most part they stayed in school and didn't accompany their dad all over the place until the end. Palin had that tiny baby up on stage way past his bedtime (and don't tell me no one would babysit), and much was made of the whole Bristol situation. (And who couldn't have guessed that they would break up as soon as the campaign was over.)

Letterman's comment was crude and disappointing, but when Bristol puts herself on the cover of People and otherwise continues to seek media attention (for whatever reason), she puts herself out there - and risks being the butt of a variety of jokes.  I firmly believe that Letterman wasn't talking about the younger daughter, and I DO think that makes a difference. If Palin had had a son who fathered a child out of wedlock, and who was dragged around the country as part of the campaign, I have no doubt that he too would have been subject to similar comments.

And let's not forget that Palin sees herself on the stump in three years. She has to love this coverage and is certainly making it last.

I agree completely, and that was part of my obscured point. If you even TRY to begin a "who deserves it" argument, you will paint yourself into a corner in no time. There is NO WAY for anyone to fairly decide who does "deserve" it and who doesn't. Not without making arbitrary value judgments that would ultimately be indefensible.

But? And?

If I had to answer my own question (and this is the sort of thing Ish and I end up discussing ad nauseum):

Generally, I think audiences are okay with comedians who make fun of people who are perceived to be LIKE the comedian or MORE advantaged than the comedian.  So for ex, I think it's okay for women to make fun of men in the workplace, but it's not okay for men to make fun of women in the workplace (since men are still paid more, promoted more, in higher-level positions overall). 

This is a changing dynamic, and not one I think is "right" but simply one I've observed over and over. 

So while I don't think that "sexism" should be taken off the table as far as what's okay for comedians to talk about, I think a lot of it has to do with who's telling the joke. Who has the power.

No one complained about Letterman telling jokes about, say, Spitzer.  Rich white men making fun of rich white men? Sure. But a rich white man making fun of a female teenager's sexuality? HOLD THE PHONE.

I'll stop ranting now.

But I will say - if there were a young female comedian making fun of the sexuality of rich, old white men? I would probably laugh my ass off.

---

Kristy blogs (sometimes) funny stuff at She Just Walks Around With It ( http://shewalks.blogspot.com )

Hi Mata,

It sounds like what you're saying is that it's never
really okay to make fun of anyone.  My gut reaction to that is to
disagree and say but, but, but - it's an entire genre of humor, and
lots of people do find it funny.

Does that make it okay, though?  I don't know, and I'm conflicted.

I think my particular issue with respect to Joanne's post is that she finds fault with Sexism As Humor. I just get uncomfortable with this because I think it's a really broad stroke. Where do you draw the line?

---

Kristy blogs (sometimes) funny stuff at

She Just Walks Around With It ( http://shewalks.blogspot.com )

---

Kristy blogs funny stuff at

She Just Walks Around With It ( http://shewalks.blogspot.com )

I'm not going to pretend that I don't laugh at and make my own off-color, non-politically correct jokes. I do. I admit it.

I am also not someone who feels the need to tell Letterman that he needs to apologize or call for his resignation. All the yelling in the world isn't going to stop us from laughing at stuff that really isn't funny or that is in some way harmful to another person (fat people, black people, disability etc...)

What angers me is those who have come along and said his joke was fine because "she asked for it..." because she's pretty, because she has some sort of sex appeal, because she took a stand on sex, because she wears this that or something else or simply because she is a public figure.

People don't "ask for it" and thus "deserve it" for any reason at all.

The Clinton's didn't ask for Letterman's brand of humor because of the cigar and the blue dress or because Hillary isn't a quiet back seat kind of woman.

Palin didn't ask for it by being who she is or standing up for what she believes.

Say it's funny. Say it's funny but misogynistic or off color or not politically correct. Say nothing at all but do not say "she deserved it" for any reason.

When people say that, I get grouchy and have to take stand. :-)

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

Flamingo House Happenings ( http://www.flamingohouse.net/ )

First, I think one group should get taken off the table for sure --- kids. Children in the public eye are just not fair game because their parents have visibility. I recall the many hurtful things said about Chelsea Clinton, for example. Palin's kids can have flaws from here to the moon, and they do not need them paraded across anyone's humor page. Growing up without the nation laughing at you is tough enough.

Secondly, It is one thing to find humor in a situation, and another thing to "make fun of" a group -- you ask is it OK to make fun of fat or stupid people. Well, I'm overweight, and it always puzzles me why comedians think my struggle with weight is funny, or why it makes me a buffoon in their eyes, or someone a man should laugh at. Some stuff is just hurtful.

Its such a big world, and a world full of humor waiting to be seen. I just can't imagine why people have to be hurtful thinking that is funny. Hurting people just isn't amusing.

~~ Contributing Editor, Mata H. also blogs right along at Time's Fool ( http://timesfool.blogspot.com )

[Just to set the stage, I'm not a mom yet, but my daughter's due any second now. I'm also a raging liberal, as is my husband...who is also a stand-up comedian. We discuss what is and isn't okay for him to joke about ALL the time.]

I think it's important but really difficult to have a good conversation about What Is Funny. (The last Letterman post/comment thread touched on a a lot of it.)

I don't have a blanket answer, but I am interested in what you think, Joanne (and Diane and Denise).

What IS okay for Letterman to poke fun at? If remarks rooted in sexism aren't fair game, what is? And why?

We'd collectively freak out if Letterman waded into racist waters. Or made fun of the mentally or physically disabled.

But! We seem to be okay when he makes fun of stupidity. Obesity is likewise fair game. White-trashness also seems to be generally acceptable.

Where/how does that line get drawn?

Sometimes I think comedians are only "allowed" to make fun of the things they could be or have been guilty of doing themselves. As an older, smart, wealthy white male, we're okay with Letterman making fun of dumb things rich people do, or white males do, or white male tv personalities do...but we START to get uncomfortable when he makes fun of people/things who don't have his advantages, i.e. women, people of color, those with disabilities.

The point I'm inefficiently trying to make is: If we take sexism off the table (because it's hateful, damaging, low-brow, etc.), what do we leave? Are fat or stupid people still okay? I don't see how. But then if not, honestly, what's -- or who's -- really okay to make fun of?

People who are "asking for it"?

How do you define THAT?

[Most of the time, my husband just makes fun of himself. It's the only thing we can agree won't be too controversial.]

---

Kristy blogs funny stuff at

She Just Walks Around With It ( http://shewalks.blogspot.com )

And in my opinion, there's something horribly wrong with this reasoning:

Letterman's remarks were fair game because Palin somehow brought this on herself because she injected her sexuality and her views on abstinence only education into her political persona.

Really?

A woman who has the guts to be who she is and take a view on a subject she cares about opens herself up to being called a slut?

Really?

So if she didn't look the way she looks and had the opposite point of view, she wouldn't have been open to being called a slut?

Really?

I'm with you Joanne.

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

Flamingo House Happenings ( http://www.flamingohouse.net/ )

Okay, I'll be brave and comment on your well written, thoughtful post. As a Mom to two teenage daughters we have had several discussions about Letterman's comments. Regardless of our viewpoints, whether conservative or liberal, to me it comes down to respect. How can we expect people to respect women when we as woman say it's okay for Letterman to make these sexist comments about another woman just because she is a conservative politician?

As women, if we ever hope to truly be treated as equals, we need to begin with treating each other equally. It is my hope as my daughters grow up and move into the workforce they are treated equally, fairly and not discriminated against due to their beliefs or their gender.

Diane

lost 150 pounds and talks about it at:

www.fittothefinish.com/blog ( http://www.fittothefinish.com/blog )