MINDING YOUR OWN BUSINESS: Your Blog Can Make You a Social Media Marketer


AUGUST 6, 2011

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>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: Good morning, everyone. Thank you for being here. We tried not to start to bright and early this year because we've learned our lesson after a few years of all the stuff that goes on. So I hope you all feel you had a great time last night and had a little time to recover this morning. How are you feeling?
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: Awesome. There's so much going on today, including all the way to 1:00 a.m. with the after party of all after parties, the CheeseburgHer. I'm Elisa Camahort Page. I'm one of the cofounders of BlogHer. I'm here to moderate this session called "How Your Blog Can Make You a Social Media Marketer." I'm just going to say a few words about why we decided to do this panel. And then I'm going to let each of my fine panelists, Jessica, Marcy and Melissa, introduce themselves and tell you a little bit about their path either from traditional marketer or social media marketer or from blogger/writer to marketer because we do have different paths represented up here. And we're going to go through and we have a variety of things we want to talk to you about. But I do also want to say that sometimes you guys are going to have answers we're going to ask you. We're just discussing something that we think probably of some of you have better answers for you than we do. You don't have to wait until the end. Kristy is back there in that lovely tunic top there. She's here, she will get to you, put your hand up. You don't have to wait until the end. Just flag her down and we'll ask questions as we go. So I come from I have a checkered career. I've done four different things in my life. Before going into the world of blogging, social media and the Internet, I was more of a traditional product management and product marketing person in the high tech industry. I learned all this on the job. Before that I was in the commodities industry and ended up, because I worked for very small companies, doing brochures and helping design their booth and representing at trade shows and ended up doing marketing. So when I decided maybe I should give this high tech thing a try because I lived in Silicon Valley and it seemed to be hot, which is back in the mid '90s, I decided marketing was the place I would go see if I had any aptitude for it. And ended up being in marketing in the high tech world for about 7 years before I moved over to the Internet. And this was traditional product management working with engineering, being the sort of go between engineering and sales on product development and promotion and getting it out there and marketing. And product marketing which was more about messaging and positioning to our customers.
I started blogging as a personal endeavor. I had a personal blog. That's how I started. I still have that poorly neglected personal blog and I had a chocolate peanut butter moment where I realized blogging to be an important tool for marketing. Of course, it has become very mainstream and, of course, you and some of the many, many people here have developed very popular blogs, very large followings on Twitter and Facebook. And, to go with that, a lot of companies, brands, and agencies are learning that they have to be in social media and they want to get into social media more. And so they're looking for people who help them do it. And Marcy really had a much better title for the session which was "blog to job." Not to mention that we're at a point where the job market is still kind of sucky and there are opportunities here to leverage what you're doing. However, having your own great blog and having your own quantity of followers and fans doesn't always translate into understanding what companies want from branding people or marketing people and understand the language they speak, to understand how they value things, how they measure value. And so the purpose of this panel really was to say you have a talent and you have some skills. Now let's shape it into what will translate to the company that you're going to be sending your CV to or the person you're going to be pitching saying I'd be the great person to work with you on this. Saying you have 2,000 Twitter followers isn't what's going to get you the job, it's saying you know how to leverage that and help them take that and hit their goals is really what's going to help you go from blog to job and that's what this panel is about. So, if you weren't I like to spell that out right in the very beginning so you know what we're going to be talking about for an hour and 15 minutes and I hope that meets your expectations of why you're in the room and if not, we'll not be offended if you check out I'm upset, I programmed myself against the international activists and other great panels. So that's what we're going to be talking about and we will not be offended if that wasn't what you thought. And with that I'm going to go down the row here and ask each of these fine ladies to talk about their path as it relates to this. And I'll start with Jessica Kirkwood.
>> JESSICA KIRKWOOD: Hi, I'm Jessica Kirkwood. I'm vice president of Digital Strategy and National Nonprofit called Points of Light Institute. We promote volunteering in America and abroad. And chances are if you have a volunteer certainty of such and such county or HandsOn something or a large volunteer organization in your town or city, they're probably part of our national network. I've always been a nonprofit executive. I started as a volunteer manager.
And moved to fundraising and nonprofit communications. 5 or six years ago I started a personal blog, it was a mom blog. I felt like I wrote through the experience of integrating the motherhood identity and who I already was in a community of women and found that really powerful and life changing. And the blog became somewhat popular, popular enough that the community was a bigger size than I could sustain after a while. I could no longer sort of read all the commenter's posts and keep it reciprocal and it was bigger than I felt comfortable with and I sort of moved away from it and became interested in how social media might be leveraged for social good where I work and convinced them to create a job around social media and to start experimenting with it. How could we used social media to inspire and equip and mobilize people to change the world? So sort of a traditional marketer and a personal social media experience that led to me working in social media at a for the purposes of this panel, it might be interesting to think of the nonprofit similar to a brand.
>> Hi, I'm Marcy Massura. I have no marketing background. I have no PR background. Never got a degree in advertising. I have no traditional training in any of that. But what I have and had is experience. I'm currently a community manager for Weber Shandwick. I manage Oscar Meyer and Lunchables, two brands you may have heard of as well as working strategy on other brands as they're brought to me and as there's a need. I started as a blogger. It was a 4:00 a.m. sort of whim. I'm going start a blog, that would be neat. I started a blog. Glamorous life association, it grew and grew. Eventually I did Twitter, I have Facebook, Google +, everything that everyone in this room is doing right now.
It wasn't long before I realized I was more attracted working with the brands than I was anything else. It fascinated me. I loved it. Not from a monetary gain. But I liked the power of social media and I liked the respect that it gave to my blog to be able to work with brands.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: May I ask what you did. You weren't from marketing, what was your background?
>> MARCY MASSURA: I was a fashion designer and I worked for 20 years in apparel and became a process consultant which Mead that I had visibility to some of the world's largest apparel companies. And I mention that I'm glad you asked. I mention it because that is something that has also been very helpful in my transition to my job, to my position. I understand business. Just making money. And how you do it. It's pretty universal. You know, no matter the industry. And that's you know for me today the biggest message is that you already know how to do all this. You're doing it. So I'm happy to be here.
>> MELISSA LION: I'm Melissa Lion. My background is as a writer. I have two novels published by Random House. I was a freelance writer for a long time, transitioned into freelance writing, wrote for the Daily Beast, Barnes&Noble.com. But freelance writing is a really scary, scary world. You're constantly on the hustle and trying to get people to pay you and at that time the economy tanked and suddenly everybody was willing to blog for free but I still had bills and electricity running to my house that I had to keep on and realized that I needed to transition into a job that would pay me a regular paycheck. So I started looking at writing and social media and I had a blog since 2004. And sort of looked at my skills as a blogger and as a writer and realized that social media is all about content. And so how do I stop calling myself a writer and a blogger and start calling myself the right names that hiring managers are looking for so that I can, you know, write the electricity bill check. Check bill, whatever. And keep lights on.
And so I looked at what hiring managers wanted. I looked at what I was already doing. I supplemented skills, learned things on my own and then went out into the corporate job market looking for work. And landed at CMD agency in Portland, Oregon. It's about 160 people, sort of a mid sized agency and we work with a lot of high tech companies like Microsoft, HP, Intel. So now that's what I do.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: Great. Thank you. So I'm just going to spend five minutes and just talk about all the other things that marketers think about in a brand or company besides where social media kind of falls which is promotion on the one hand and also customer relations on the other.
So when you're talking about marketing in a traditional sense, they're also talking about a commercial product what a customer will buy whether that's consumer B2B, they're thinking about how to price that product. What competitive landscape is looking at. How to position it against their competitors. They're also thinking about distribution, how to get that product out there. Are they going to go retail? Are they going to go eCommerce? This all falls under in general those companies the marketing umbrella. I bring this up for one reason. The promotion and customer relations part of marketing, particularly the PR and promotions and that kind of external marketing is a pretty can be a volatile business. You can see a lot of turn over, attrition. It can be very client related. So you lose a big client and you lose a lot of funding and that was impact on employees, that's why you see attrition and turnover. I bring this up because you can take skills you have now and do one kind of job. But personally, I would recommend starting to expand what you know, look for other opportunities to learn and grow into other areas. Chunk by chunk by chunk because it broadens your hirability. The broadens your expertise, it broadens the next job you can move into. This is a great example with Jessica where they basically crafted a job that would start to implement the skills she had in that direction. But you can go the other direction which start as a social media marketer and begin to learn about brand management and end up morphing in a different way. So the entire universe of marketing is bigger than just this one aspect. And there's a lot you can do to learn that. I had no education in marketing or business at all either.
You know? And everything I learned was on the job. And you just kept growing and taking on another chunk of responsibility.
But that also brings up that the marketing world has gotten a lot more complicated for companies. We're going to talk with what we like to call or at BlogHer we talk about the sandbox. It used to be really clear. There was a digital agency there and a creative agency here and a PR agency here and a brand buyer and a buyer here. And they all stayed in their boxes and there's still a lot of that. But now there's a lot of barriers breaking down and people are doing different agencies are taking on and it's all about trying especially in an economy like this one, it's all about trying to add more value and have more ways someone can hire you and have more ways someone will pay you money. So starting with Melissa and then coming back this way, I'd love to have you guys explain a little bit about first of all, what your agencies do, where the boundaries are drawn. And then to talk to Jessica from the perspective of an internal person, what they do in house, what they outsource and you know how those stand boxes are kind of evolving.
>> MELISSA LION: Yeah. So it's very interesting. Before I started at CMD, I had no idea, you hear other big brands like Microsoft and hear of people working with Microsoft and you think oh, that's probably just one agency, one brand. But there are dozens and dozens and dozens of agencies working with one brand and often in my experience with my clients, I'm on the phone with three other agencies at a time working on the same project and our client won't even be on the call. So not only are we working directly with our client. But we're working with other partner agencies who are also billing hours to the same project. And then within each company, there are all these stakeholders and they can hire their own individual agencies too, whoever they feel comfortable with. So there's tons and tons of opportunities for you to find your place within an agency and then within sort of a larger brand. Our agency is an integrated marketing agency and so we do video production, we do paid advertising. All kinds of stuff. We do even event activations, all kinds of stuff you can imagine related to marketing, we do it. Creative. Everything. And even within our agency our silos are breaking down. So for example we have a paid media team. I'm on the earned media team. That's all digital. Twitter, Facebook, blogs. Even my team is sort of straying outside of our bounds. Technically we shouldn't be paying for my sort of media coverage because we're earned media but we head up Facebook ads, we do BlogHer sponsorships. So we do some paid work as well.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: Does everyone know this paid versus owned versus earned media? Explain it. Okay, paid media traditionally has meant advertising. You're paying for presence next to media. It can mean advertorial where you're paying for content that is exposed as it's the special advertising sections in a magazine or "New York Times" or whatever. That's paid media. Owned media is your own site, your own Facebook, you're creating, you're paying, people are come to you. Earned media is what they're doing blogger outreach trying to get. Trying to get to you organically talk about a brand or a service or a product. Did I miss anything.
>> MARCY MASSURA: No, that's right. So one thing I wanted to sort of as part of the educational process of the session. But understanding that I know there's a lot of bloggers out there that are continually saying they want to work with brands. In their mind they're thinking they're going to call the brand and the brand is going to say awesome, I want to work with you. I think that's a huge misunderstanding. The majority of brands, large brands, you do not work through the brand itself. You work through an agency. And as was explained, there's multiple agencies involved. So you're going have a PR firm frequently. And you're also going to have an advertising company and then you may have a digital agency. And the digital, just to let you know generally is about the architecture, building tabs, building Web sites, building the code if you will. Weber has capabilities to do all of that but we do not do all of that for each client. It depends on the clients needs and who they want to work with. So to give you an example, we handle traditional PR for Lunchables. We also handle all the digital social media for them. And just let's just break it down. So that means like I write the Facebook updates. I reply on Facebook. I do the Twitter activation. That's what that means. Maybe writing a blog post, taking photos, that's what that means when they say I do the social media for them, that's really and it sounds familiar, right? It's exactly what you're doing right now. That's why I say you already know how to do this. You're doing it. So that's that side. And then, of course, the advertising, that's all of the paid agencies. So again, when we're working and trying to work with a brand, it is a team effort with your competitors. So it's an interesting interesting part of the business.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: Yeah, I'll just say it. It's interesting because everybody is trying to retain as much a part of the overall budget as they can. So you have this weird weird vibe where you know people are working about recommending plans and making recommendations that involve some of it is going to have to be farmed out. It's a really interesting environment. Jessica, maybe you can speak about it from the client point of view. You're the one United Stating these agencies.
>> JESSICA KIRKWOOD: It's like you said, Marcy, we have a PR firm, we have a number of different firms writing campaigns in Facebook, writing social integration into our Web sites and so forth. We do all of our owned social media in house. So we write all of our own blog posts, all of our own Twitter and Facebook feeds. And you know, as a nonprofit I was the one who did that at first. And I will say the one thing that isn't exactly like what you're doing now. When I'm writing my blog I'm writing content as me. Authentic voice is really easy to find because I happen to be me. But suddenly any time I posted it was going to have my company logo instead of my face and it was a little bit challenging to find the voice of the company. Now, I had happened to work there for, you know, I've worked there for 20 years so it was a little easier for me than it might be. But imagine you walk into brand X and suddenly you're supposed to be brand X in social media and be authentically the voice of that logo. That takes a little bit of time and I was fortunate they were lenient about it. And this is a little bit tangential but it occurs to me that there are many nonprofits that don't have the resources to hire a social media marketer. So, if you want to gain corporate social media experience, you might volunteer for a position doing it with a local nonprofit. But otherwise, in terms of outsourcing, we do a lot of what you were saying.
One other thing I wanted to mention is I'm very interested in outsourcing our blogger outreach program. One of the things that Points of Light Institute has is a brand out of New York called GenerationOn that specializes in volunteering with families and schools. And I'd love to have a blog ambassador program for parent bloggers who were interested in volunteerism. And I would more specifically like a proposal to come from the community itself so that it was the ambassador program was organized by the community and you know presented I would get a proposal that says here's our idea, here's what we think it would cost. Because I thought I would be more authentic and engage the community better. It's a little bit of a struggle for me because I'm not a brand. I can't necessarily wine and dine people in Florida. So I need something that respects that all the money we spend has been charitably contributed and we need to think through that. So that's something that you didn't mention that we're also interested in outsourcing.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: So you bring up two things we want to discuss here today and the first is this concept of you have a personal brand. How are you going to bring that to a company or an organization. The second is you're asking to be pitched. How can you, as a blogger pitch her? Which do we want to talk about first? The perm and professional branding? Who wants to talk about how you pitch and make yourself valuable? Let's try that again. Who wants to talk about personal versus professional. Weaving those together? And who wants to start with how you pitch what you're doing? It's totally equal. I think it's heavier on the second. We'll get back to personal and professional. But let's just go right into this idea of how do you quantify the value you're going to bring a company or a nonprofit organization because you're a talented blogger that has grown a community and developed lots of fans and followers. So you just said I want to be pitched from the community. What's going to be compelling to you?
>> JESSICA KIRKWOOD: So I'm interested in how many fans and followers you have. But that's really not my primary area of interest. It's something, but not the most interesting. At companies we're fortunate to have access to tools that will aggregate the performance of some of our social media tools so we're tracking or reach which is sort of like media impressions in traditional marketing. Once you calculate the overall number of tweets and retweets and you sort of add audiences together, what was the overall reach of any given piece of content. So I'm interested in your reach. But I'm also interested in your engagement. These tools also track how many times did someone like it. How many times did they comment or retweet it or share it on their own wall or e mail it. Any time someone does something with your content, that's an active engagement and I'm very interested in what your engagement level is. So I'll tack activity. That might be the number of posts you do across all your social channels, what your aggregated reach was for a month and then what your engagement was in that month and then I'm looking at activity to engage many ratio and reach to engagement ratio and we have paid tools and before this started we were thinking wow, there are probably free ones where you can piece this together and we might bounce back to you to share with each other what some of those free tools are. It's a little more work if you don't have a program like spread fast or Omni rich or something that does it for you. But the other thing I'm interested in is maybe you have fantastic reach and engagement but on what topic are you influential? So I've been watching sites like clout which are starting to track what sort of topics you're influential on and I'm interested in clout. I don't think they've necessarily solved the problem because for example, my clout score says that I'm influential on the topic of the Beastie Boys, which I think is awesome but it's really not at all true. But I'm willing to go with it because I totally rock.
>> MARCY MASSURA: And you just mentioned it so there you go.
>> JESSICA KIRKWOOD: It's absolutely not true, but it's funny though. Yay me. I rock! There is a product coming out soon called spot influence that if it works well we'll be able to I would be able to say tell me the top 10 most influential people on the topic of volunteerism. And bam I'd know who my key influencers are. They might have a small following but their engagement on my topic would be sky high. Think what that would mean to a social marketer if I knew which 10 of you care most about my topic and go right to you. That would be incredible. So I'm very interested in that. So, if you have any way to figure from your Google Analytics, for example, you organic search, on what topics are you influential? On what topics is your audience engaged with you? And then when you're pitching yourself to brands, bring that up too. Here's my activity, my reach, my engagement, the ratio of those topics together. And then here are the kinds of topics I'm influential about. If you're a food blogger, your audience is very engaged on food. You might be looking to work with a brand who be interested in reach the foodies where you're influential and all that.
>> MARCY MASSURA: All that, ditto. I will say this, there is a difference between pitching to an agency for a job for a than pitching to an agency to work with you and support you on your brand. That's what I call the I'm awesome pitch. Like check me out I'm so awesome, I'm so popular. You're kind of you're talking about reach but you're talking about things that we're always working on every day. You can be I'm not the most influential person on the Internet. You can be a good consistent blogger. Somebody who is consistently and broad in the space, social space, multi platforms, you're using them consistently well. You're providing good content. You're a good writer. That is part of it. And you can land a job. So your proposal to the agency, if you don't come to it with this I'm awesome kind of approach, you know, if you don't come to it as the prom queen of the Internet, you can still market yourself in your pitch about what you do bring to the table. A lot of that is about brands and agencies are looking for people and I hear this all the time who understand the space. They understand the space. So they might be a lower tier level blogger or something. But they know all about the other tiers and they know how that machine is working and how the game is played and all of that stuff. And that's total that's as value because honestly when you get a position with an agency and we'll talk about this in the second topic, your personal identity may not be leveraged. You may never be revealed. You're behind the curtain, right? Nobody may even know that blah, blah, blah famous person blogger is actually writing the content for this brand. So in some cases it doesn't matter. I mention that because I don't want people to assume that you rise above and you're awesome on the Internet and then you get a job. Nope. Because there's plenty of people that are awesome right now and just for whatever reason they just don't have a lot of followers.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: I would add before BlogHer we had a little social media, we didn't call it social media back then so I had an online marketing solo printer thing Worker Bees and I worked for companies and I blogged for some of them and did online community engagement. I think what continues to be important is to add value to understand the pieces that go into what you're doing with you talk about something as simple as blogger outreach and to artic pate those pieces and add value to every single function. One function is research. You're going to research the space. You're going to research the people. You're going to research the conversations that are happening. People charge money for research. The other function is communication, whether it's writing copy, whether it's doing outreach, whether it's creating marketing messaging that they can use, people charge money for creating content and communications. Another function is reporting. You're going to track and you're going to report and you're going to analyze and you're going to create a report that says here was the result of this effort.
People charge money to track and analyze and report. It's part of the whole package. Everything you're doing has value. And in the regular world away from social media when we do these things in spaces there are people who do that for money. And you need recognize the full scope of your value that you're bringing to do all of this for anybody, whether it's in a full time hired position or as a consultant. It's really important. I really believe in charging based on retainer. Now we're talking about consulting and not just a job. But retainer and on value versus an hourly rate. Doesn't I'm pretty quick. I shouldn't be penalized because I'm pretty quick, right? So it's really to me about value and function. And understanding that the one thing I think that I would have added to your list of things, activity and engagement result in that we still track when people mention sponsors they saw last year at BlogHer. Oh, my God. I just put on my pair of whatever that I got at BlogHer. I just used this cream I got at BlogHer last year. That was the best ever to learn about that brand. They could say that 9 months later and I'm going to tag that thing and I'm going to add it to the hopper. So, if you have people who are taking what you say and reporting action based on it, that's results and that's really important to track that you're not just active, you're not just popular, you're not just getting people to engage in conversation. It turns into action. You all are doing that. Our research we're talking about yesterday at the very beginning. Women who blog are influencing purchasing. So now it's time to track and take credit, right?
>> MELISSA LION: I wanted to emphasize too going back to something that Marcy said that you don't have to be prom queen of the Internet. That's the tag line.
>> MARCY MASSURA: That's what I'll be known for.
>> MELISSA LION: And just to say that you know, when I went into my interview with CMD, what I had in the back of my head was I did all of this for no budget. I built my Twitter community up. I don't have the huge Twitter community much I built my Twitter community up. I do all these project management things. I have an event series that I run. I did all of this without any budget at all. Imagine what would happen if you turned me loose with 20,000 bucks, I'm going to rock that thing. So just taking a look at your own things that you've done and being very specific. It might be I built my Twitter community up from zero to 1200 and these are the steps I used to do it. All of that is scalable. You can turn that around and do those same skills for a larger brand. I would emphasize, too, going through Elisa's list is adding SEO. And a great thing you can do for your own blog is do an SEO scrub on your own blog. Dial up the SEO, get it cranking and add that to your resume and document the results, so always documenting your results and being prepared to express them in your interview whether that's an informational interview or you've actually been called for a job. So always be prepared to show your results because it is true I put I spend a lot of my job reporting tracking and reporting and showing the client here's what you spent your money on. Congratulations.
>> MARCY MASSURA: It's a boy.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: Is everyone familiar with SEO and what she means by doing that.
>> What's scrub.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: Search engine optimization, it's nice if you can do it yourself it's also nice if you can hire someone and supervise them doing an SEO project. Which is a management skill, right? How you would measure that is before you get started do key word searches on things you think your blog should be good at. See where you are, do the work and then come back and keep tracking, you have to keep tracking and then you can say that you went from being on page 10 to page 6. You went from a particular page rank to another page rank because you worked with the guts of your blog with or without a consultant. But you led the project to improve your stats.
>> MELISSA LION: And there also I mean little things, like I said before, social media is all about content. And if you're writing a blog post every single day, that translates to the hiring manager that you can keep a deadline. That is so important to just be able to manage your deadlines and create content quickly. You know, on the agency side, we're all writing, writing, writing, every day I have three deadlines I'm trying to meet. And to be able to just come into the hiring manager and say I blog every day is huge. I mean, people will start a blog, as you all know, and never complete you know, never continue on with it. So just that you have that commitment to social says volumes about you.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: Does anybody have any questions? That was a big chunk of content we just talked about. Kristy is back there with the mic. She'll be right there. I do ask you to wait for the mic because we are recording so that people can listen to this later.
>> AUDIENCE: Hi. I'm a small company that I'm just launching right now. My question is I can't afford a firm, a PR firm and a media firm and all of this. And there's bloggers who want to get into all this. How can I connect and small brands connect with bloggers without a firm, without a PR firm? Are there any Web sites or
>> MARCY MASSURA: Somebody raised their hand who wants to just kidding. We'll do it right now.
So there is a little bit of a gap right now in regional blogging organizations. And locating particularly if you're a brick and mortar business but locating local bloggers that is for some reason a gap that has yet to really be successfully filled. But Google is your friend. Try to also connect to people at social events. Mashable day and social media day and things of that nature. You basically have to act as the PR. You're doing your own internal PR at that point, you're doing what an agency would do for you. Let's say you won the lottery and you're like yay, I'm hiring a PR firm, Weber Shandwick. We'd do the same thing, where are you located? What's your customer base? Who are we going after? What's the target audience? You know, let's say who are we targeting here? Mom blogs or dads or what have you? So there's no magic bullet for it. And as we all know tracking bloggers and tracking influence is herding cats and hugging water. It changes daily. Blogs go away. Like overnight. So it's a continual process. Coming to BlogHer is a good point, you'll meet a lot of bloggers.
>> MELISSA LION: Start your own meetup. You could start your own local meetup on a Tuesday afternoon and just everybody has beer and suddenly your community grows and that's also another good step for anybody who's interested in working into a full time job is starting a meetup. It shows great project management skills. Shows great community building skills, community outreach. That was one of the things I did and added to my resume is just starting a meetup. I started a knitting group and that laid foundation for larger events for me.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: Right. It's the underlying skills. I do as a little I enjoy I don't like working on my own resume but I like to work on other people's, which is like a lot of things in life probably. I like to give other people advice about lots of things. And that's always it's recognizing the underlying skills that went behind everything you're doing in life and on the other end quantifying the output is really hard. So many resumes just start off saying resume like thing number one is people will say here is what my job was. Here's responsibility one, responsibility two, responsibility 3. Doesn't say whether you were good at it or not. Or whether you accomplished those. Now we know what the job responsibility was. Not really helpful. The other thing they'll say is they'll talk about what a lot of things they did but won't attach any kind of evidence that said and I did it better than anybody and I did it with this great result. It's either a job description or a task description. And neither one kind of gets you hired. So I would say also I had another thought. The a lot of times people come into the blogosphere and they're like right who's the A list. I want to get to the top 2 bloggers. They may not come to you. Are they even relevant to you. Do they write about what you care about. If they haven't started writing about X product or Y service, they're not going to do it for you probably. But who are the people to your point, Google is your friend. Who are the people already out talking about what your company is involved. Who are the people out there talking about volunteering and how they witch more people volunteered, right? So forget about the A list and find your A list. 30 bloggers or so that really care about, already care about what you feel your company cares about. Is there another question over here?
>> AUDIENCE: Yes, I work for a company, I write four blogs, I Facebook, I tweet. And I'd like to recommend it's a free newsletter daily called copy blogger. Every day you just get wonderful information specifically about blogging for business, blogging for a corporation. And I read it every day. There's another one out there called smart brief on social media. And you get information on who's doing what in the social media world. Why their social media efforts are successful, why they're not successful. Best thing you can do is learn as much as you can about SEO and that's really when you have a company and you're trying to move yourself up in the rankings, you definitely need to know about. Copy blogger, c o p y b l o g g e r.com. And smart brief on social media.com.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: Kristy there's a question up front and two back there.
>> AUDIENCE: Thank you. You gave a definition for the SOS. Can you describe for me about scrub.
>> MELISSA LION: Oh, SEO. Search engine optimization. So a scrub would be going through your Web site. So first of all, determining what key words you want to be Googled about. So what you want to be the expert in. And then adding those key words to your content. Adding them there's all kinds of little places in your code that you can add SEO key words, making sure that all your categories and your tags are all dialed in. All of this SEO stuff, first of all, is a little bit of voodoo magic always in the back of my head. I don't know, it's kind of crazy. But also all of these tools are readily available on the Internet for free. People will try to charge you for SEO but just doing a very basic level sort of SEO tuneup let's say on your blog, I think tuneup is a better word than scrub. So you're just making sure that your blog is running really well with all the SEO key words. So doing that to your own blog and then documenting the results. So all of that, you know, all of the places in your blog that you can put SEO key words, all of that is available on the Internet. Just Google it. And it will tell you how to do it.
>> MARCY MASSURA: I just want to mention that you know, we were talking about value, right? So giving yourself value and giving yourself permission to value what you're doing. You need to eliminate the word "just." Out. It was just a meetup. It was just these 10 people. It was just these 10 friends from Twitter. If you really look at that it from a marketer standpoint, you say I see initiative and I see people who are organizing and I see people who can do events. It's the just that will kill you. I just have a thousand people on Twitter. Or I just have a Facebook page and it's just this many people. You know, really understanding that it doesn't matter. There's value in every single thing that you're doing. There is a value. And as soon as you value it, somebody will pay you for it. Nobody's going to pay you if you don't think you deserve to be paid. I just want to throw that out there.
>> AUDIENCE: Hi, my question is specifically to those of you that had corporate positions before your new corporate position that included social media. Your transfer or jump from one job to another was it a lateral move financially or did you have to step down to go into the social media space?
>> MARCY MASSURA: Jessica, maybe
>> JESSICA KIRKWOOD: For me it was I was already sort of a vice president in the at the nonprofit. So it was pretty lateral. But I have I have responsibilities beyond social media specifically and at first I didn't for this short time. And so I was making my VP salary doing social media and I knew what salaries for community you know content developers and community managers were and every night I'd go home to my husband and say this is so fun and the other shoe is going to drop any minute and sure enough it totally did. I have vastly more responsibilities including SEO and digital strategy. The rest of my office teases me that I'm in charge of the Internet because it makes me so mad when they say that. So it was a lateral move at the same salary. But I do think that the, in my opinion, some of the content development and community management salaries that I've seen out there sort of still undervalue the skills that the salaries seem quite low to me, to be frank.
>> MARCY MASSURA: That's sort of a loaded question because it depends on what position you had before versus what size agency and what brand you might be going to and just exactly what your responsibilities are, you know, for me, where I am now is on my trajectory path for my entire career. So I'm doing, you know, so it was the right fit for me. You may have to take a hit. It depends. If you're doing insanely well or we're doing insanely well, maybe lost a position and you're looking to get into social, you may have to take a hit. But as the positions grow and they get more diverse and the needs are growing every day and the company sees success if it Elisa Camahort Page and you take on more responsibilities and more tasks.
>> MARCY MASSURA: The growth is unlimited, the positions are unlimited. That's really the message.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: I will say I was in traditional marketing, when I first left my full time you know where I'd been and my friends thought I was crazy because I quit during the nadir of the dot com bust because I was burnt and I had enough. I didn't know what I was going to do. I thought I was going to get another job like that when I chilled out for a few months and I consulted back for them for a few months and I did some writing for some friends in the industry. I did marketing writing white papers, articles for trade magazines. And those were like this was back in the '90s, no this is back in the early otts. This is like dollar a word type of writing. Bylaws of my blog I got a column in a local alternative weekly about being a vegetarian and then a vegan. They just offered it to me without ever meeting me just based on the fact of what I was blogging. And when they first gave me the per word, I think it was 15 cents per word. And I said they're trying to gyp me because I'm a blogger. And I reached out to a friend who was a columnist for the daily paper in San Jose. And she said no, sadly, sadly, that's normal, for my weekly opinion piece of 300 words. And I know I got a raise and got up to 20 cents a word. And I thought wow. So I'm not sure it's just about blogging and undervalue of blogging. There's a little bit of undervaluing of writing. And that's just in general and I know traditional journalists are struggling with that too. So that's why I'm all about the and I'm doing research and I'm doing analysis and I'm doing tracking and reporting and all these other things, not just the writing. Kristy, you have another? And I know we have one up front here and one here.
>> AUDIENCE: Could you ladies share with us what tools you use to track your results other than just simply tracking hashtags?
>> JESSICA KIRKWOOD: I use a tool called spread fast. And the last time I have a donated pro bono account. It is a paid service. The last time I checked which is over a year ago it was about $40 a month which is incredibly affordable compared to others you might hear of like Radian6 or omni tour so forth. Small act. You can look into it. It's an Austin based company. Their pricing may have changed. They were a startup at the time and they've grown quite quickly. If you use some kind of tool that tracks some of the analytics I've been talking about, a free tool, raise your hand. A couple folks. So notice whose hand was up. If you could hold them up for just a second and maybe find a few of these people. I think there are probably there's a lot more resources for free tools in the room than there are at the table as I mentioned.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: I use Google Alerts. I use back type that just got acquired for comments. That's a good comment tracker. I use well, I used to use Twitter social alerts but that got bad. I'm sort of obsessive about tracking retweets and all that. I use TweetDeck. We use HootSuite.
>> MARCY MASSURA: I'm obsessed with StatCounter.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: People on my team are really in love with Chartbeat. And we're using Sysomo's heartbeat, which is a paid tool. We use Scout Labs. That's also a paid tool. But again some of these tools are not wildly expensive. Scout Labs was under $100 a movement. But again, there are people in the room who probably know more tools but that's sort of my daily thing. Right here. And someone right there.
>> AUDIENCE: Before I ask my question I just want to throw out Stat Counter is free. And it's a very good source. So is High Stats. Both of those are free tools. We use them religiously. My question I want to get into the next aspect of this and that is integrating personal and professional. Our blog is a little different. We have a celebrity gossip entertainment Web site inbound.com. There are four of us who are writers. And with the Google algorithm changes we're looking more and more into social media, Facebook, Twitter, Google+. How do we integrate the voices, our personal voices with the business? We have followers but I know it could be more. We don't want to be a Perez. We don't to be a TMZ. But we're not a Huffington Post either. So that's our challenge. How do we integrate how do we have, you know, four different personalities? Do we bring our personalities into it especially when you're talking about social networking? Because it's pretty boring if you just go on our Facebook page and it's just the news feeds of the posts, that's all you see is an excerpt, yeah, we get traffic but we want to maximize that. How do we do that?
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: Can I clarify, you're not interested in how we go to someplace else. How do we, the four people who run this site what's the value of our personal identities in the overall building of your community around a company. We have a lot of differing opinions on the panel about personal and professional. I was actually surprised to find out I'm only one for instance who will curse online. I'll probably curse right here on this panel.
>> MARCY MASSURA: She will. Don't try her.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: That's right. I curse at work. I'm bad on that. My team wants to make my ring tone be "motherfuckers!"
>> MARCY MASSURA: Did you get that? Make sure you type that. Charming.
>> JESSICA KIRKWOOD: That's in the notes. Yes, yes, that's true. So I will say that when we use Twitter as a team and Facebook as a team we all sign our tweets and we sign our Facebook updates and I know and maybe I feel a little more relaxed about it being a cofounder, but I'm pretty me on, like, sometimes I decide to tweet from BlogHer but I'm saying from me it's my voice, still my voice. I'm not trying to be more corporate or more you know perhaps I don't use that ring tone in my tweets for the company. I will say that.
>> MARCY MASSURA: Wow. What a compromise.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: I will compromise my spirit. But we do sign. We do say we're humans here. The whole beauty of social media is it makes you human and we do humanize ourselves and use our own voices and say that BlogHer is a community of people. But what do you all think?
>> MARCY MASSURA: I think what you're starting to do is think strategically. What is the best strategy for your brand? Your brand happens to be a Web site. but what is your strategy? You need to ask yourself is there a benefit in leveraging those personalities? Four is a lot and it can sound a little I hate the word and it can sound a little bipolarish sometimes if you have somebody who writes In Re: Particular fashion, somebody who writes differently. So I will say if you are going to maintain all four it needs to be clearly identified. This is Bob talking this is Marie talking whether you use an avatar, a shared avatar, however, you're going to manage that. But for me as a strategist, I'd say why, how does this benefit you?
>> AUDIENCE: We've been described as "The View" of the Internet.
>> MARCY MASSURA: So those personalities are part of your assets. And you want to continue that. Then I say by all means do so. But you just need to make it excruciatingly clear for the reader whether signing your Facebook updates. And then when we talk about personality and going beyond just reposing your links from your site to your other channels, you know, think about parallel content. Right? So you've got to think about what else is this reader into? What else are they doing and then mention it and you'll get engagement?
>> MELISSA LION: And more SEO. When we had our pre event meeting, this was definitely the hottest topic. I don't know, I guess I didn't realize this. I went through and when I decided to go to corporate America, I went through and removed things from my blog. I didn't realize that was a bad thing to do. That you can't delete old posts about I totally did that and then I stopped swearing online because I certainly have made my share of F bombs and flame wars on the Internet I do enjoy a good flame war. So stopped doing all of that. And my basic rule of thumb is I won't say it on the Internet if I won't say it in my boss's office. So, if I go in my boss's office and say I just had a shitty day. I probably wouldn't even say that on the Internet.
>> JESSICA KIRKWOOD: And yet you said it here.
>> MELISSA LION: So that's sort of my rule of thumb and the other thing is I worked at a PR firm long long time ago and my mentor said you're always representing your client, 24 hours a day. So I think that's part of what you sign off on when you go to work at an agency or earned media or PR that 24 hours a day you are representing your client and no way can you go on to your Facebook page and talk about the keg stands you did last night. Absolutely not. Your clients are following you on your Facebook page. Your bosses are following you on your Facebook page. I think that people think oh, I'll just set up a separate Facebook page and that will just be no! They'll find you and they'll follow you on it. I really had that intention that my Facebook page none of my colleagues would be on my Facebook page and I could still have crappy days but as soon as I started working there they all followed me so now I can't even have crappy days. But the truth of the matter is that once I stopped writing about my crappy days and stopped complaining all the time and initiating flame wars, like, life got better. I don't know, life sort of got sweeter after that.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: That is a nice outcome of that. I was amongst the ones on the phone like you did what? And she said that. I said wow, I never thought about that. That's nice.
>> MELISSA LION: But still I wish I could still let F bombs go. Elisa Camahort Page you can.
>> MELISSA LION: I just think it. I think it inside.
>> MARCY MASSURA: You don't look like an F bomb kind of person. When you represent a brand, you're a digital spokesperson and I think when you get your head around that, that you represent the brand. You're the online voice. People associate with you with brand. On Lunchables I have an extremely unique situation if you go to the Facebook page for Lunchables, there is a tab that says meet Marcy and it has my full complete name and a picture of me and my children. I'm 100% transparent. So I am Lunchables right now. I'm Lunchables all the darn time. But it's a good point to say, when you're looking for a position, when you're talking to agencies, when people approach you and say we'd like to partner with you, we'd like to hire you, consult, whatever the situation, you need to be very up front about your online profile. If you have a blog that has cuss words in it, or has a lot of negative reviews about other brands, just tell them now. Tell them now and see what they say. My personal opinion and I think everybody disagrees with me, but I never used F word on my site so I never had to clean it off. And if you want to work with brands might be a very good idea not to. That's all I'm going to say. I'm not going to say it's bad or I'm judgey. But the family value brands, they wouldn't be comfortable with it.
>> JESSICA KIRKWOOD: My experience was just a little bit different in that my blog was anonymous. While it wasn't strictly anonymous. People knew I had a blog and they knew it was mine and my picture was on there. It was called oh, the joys and I had an oh, the joys Twitter account and I never associated it with Facebook. But when I started working in social media Oh, the Joys! is where I started hanging out with my mom blog friends and I thought company continue this account but I'm going to have to start leveraging my professional life on the line and I'm not sure my moms care about social media for nonprofit articles and conversations I want to have on that topic. So I started a Twitter account that's Jessica Kirkwood. It's my name at hey JK and I talk about nonprofit social media management there and myself but I find now I use that account much more. Oh, the joys still exists and when I want to jump into conversations with my mom friends I use that account but I rarely do I use hey JK. I also just checked my Facebook. You know, I never really posted super controversial content anywhere. But decided how many pictures of my family am I going to feel comfortable posting if I'm going to be friends with a lot of professional colleagues and sort of changed some photo album and whatnot. I didn't take down any blog posts, again my name isn't associated with the blog, you can't Google my name and find the blog. Though if my colleagues find it, they can learn all about the mighty wind that I bring to the world.
But I sort of sort of stand behind what I've written on the personal blog and it was mostly self deprecating humor, never any kind of content I feel would embarrass a brand. But it has been interesting I think if you start to do social media as a brand, what becomes of your personal persona online and what choice will be make. You will continue at mama writes or will you be Jennifer Brown online. And to sort of become Jessica Kirkwood online, there was a period of time where not only was I figuring out well what does my logo say and how does that voice sound, it was also a little bit awkward to be like now I'm Jessica Kirkwood at work and what do I say on the Internet? And that took a little bit of time too to be comfortable to be a blend of my professional self and just me totally transparent and authentically online, that took a little while too.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: I was a little surprised to discover when we had our call that I was the most outlier of folks. This was before I was a consultant before BlogHer and getting consulting gigs. And I used to blog politically and I was a partisan political blogger and what I explained is everybody has boundaries and you have to decide what your own boundaries are in life. When I was a political blogger and I had people say to me aren't awe frayed someone won't hire you because they disagree with your politics. I said well if they're the kind of person who won't hire me for my business skills because I have political beliefs I'm comfortable not working with them and I was. So I linked everything. It was quite clear where my blogs were and who I was. Now that I am with BlogHer and we're an omni partisan organization that's trying to encourage civil discourse from the left and the right, I'm less comfortable. I feel like if I'm overtly political a lot it's going to send a message to the community. I'm actually far less political now because of the community we're trying to build. And so now my sort of thing that I'll talk about more is being a vegan and why I'm a vegan and stuff like that. One thing I've never talked about is my relationship or even my family very much. And I'll talk about all sorts of personal things. I'll tell personal stories. And I must by boundaries are just they're mine. And I decided that I decide where they go. And if someone actually has a problem with it, then you know, I'll deal with that. I'm a grown up and I'll deal with it and I'm okay with that. But where the boundaries get to be have changed depending on the circumstance. And I kind of feel like that's okay. And what we were talking about that was interesting and I think what each of you ladies particularly had to deal with is we've hired a lot of people from our community be our employees and some of them come to us with a personal brand that's fairly prominent and they've been speaking at conferences or getting interviewed by press as Erin Kotecki at Queen of Spain and Susan Getgood is @SGetgood. And these are people who come, Maria Niles. These are people who came and said am I going to have to give up we're a small company, we're divide and conquer, there are only a few people out there being spokespeople at conferences we can't afford to we have 60 talented people. In each case I bring this up to recommend to you that you think about what you are bringing to the table and want to sustain and retain and make that part of your negotiation and I think we discussed how you guys actually had to have those conversations as well, right?
>> MELISSA LION: Yeah, I will say we all follow them on Twitter, the people who are social media gurus and all they tweet about is social media. I have to say that part of your value as bloggers is that you actually use social media for its intended purpose, you're not out there retweeting Mashable articles and you know inspirational quotes. Please stop doing that people. I've had enough of Gandhi.
>> MARCY MASSURA: That's our public service announcement of the day. There will be no quoting on Twitter.
>> MELISSA LION: But you actually use social media for its intended purpose. So that is a huge value to marketers who tend to get very insulated and then all we all want to do is just share the latest startup. And they're the latest analytics tool but then you have to come above it and still write a lunch tweet. God, I had chill I Achilles for breakfast, somebody out interest loves chili Achilles just like me. There's value for that. Right?
>> AUDIENCE: I'm Max from savology, wow, this is really loud. I love my new social media tools. Love them, love them, love them. What do you guys think of Google+. I'm having issues around it.
>> MARCY MASSURA: You hit my lucky button.
>> AUDIENCE: I don't really get it yet. What do you guys think.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: Google+ is a sponsor here so I'm going to put that disclosure out there. I will say this: I'm not a Facebook person. I'm a Twitter holic. Some of you may know this. I'm not a Facebooky person. I kind of don't get that too well. What I liked about Google+ for me is that Facebook, everything it suggests to me seems to be based on who my friends are. And because of my work, I'm friends with lots of people who are moms are small children and I am not a mom of small children, I'm not a mom of any children and I don't need ads that tell me all about children's stuff. I like them. I have nieces and nephews, I'm not anti children but that's not something I go out and buy every day so always when I'm on my Facebook it feels like it's about other people. When I joined Google+, all the suggestions they made to me about who to follow seemed to be about what I do and my presence with Google so therefore, I'm like look, all my geeky Silicon Valley social media people, yay. It seems to be more about me and the conversations seem to be more so I don't know. I like it. I like it for that reason. That's why we really wanted to get it out though to start diversifying who is participating and building community there is which is why we wanted to partner with them this year because I do think it could use some more diversity and diversity of content and diversity of people and that's part of our goal.
>> MARCY MASSURA: I will say that I think Google+ is the biggest change to blogging ever. It's a game changer for bloggers.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: That's a big statement.
>> MARCY MASSURA: I know. I will fully stand behind it completely. It's a long format publisher. And in many cases can replace a blog. I'm not it's not something I recommend because I think you're basically renting a room. Like you know, you never want to not have a business site and just have a Facebook or whatever because you're really renting a room in someone else's hotel but it is a huge game changer for being able to publish long content for brands. And also for personal. I encourage people to explore and see what they like about it. I'm happy to answer any questions. I'm in pretty deep. I was on it within the first hours on it. And I can tell you in what? Six weeks or whatever, I have almost as many followers as I have on Twitter after four years. So I'm very much a fan of new platform. And that said you need to be familiar with it if you want to work in social media and get a job. Because guess what? Now there's a whole bunch of new jobs out there. There's a whole bunch of people that are going to be looking for people in the social space who know Google+ whether you like it or not, brands are going to be looking to you guys to tell them how to do it, should they do it.
>> MELISSA LION: I'm kind of thinking of stepping one side to the side of Google+ and think about what agencies are looking for in terms of your knowledge of new tools. That's certainly something you want to bring to the table. And there are a zillion new tools out there every single sol care I day. There's tons of new startups missing their consonants. So you know, but groundswell which is a book has a list of six or five questions you can ask about this new tool to determine if it will be around for a long time. I highly recommend checking out that list. Because when you go into your job search or your interviews and they ask you you know about new tools or whatever, it's not going to bring a lot of value to the hiring manager to your team if you can recite 10 new tools every week. What will bring value is that you can identify the one new tool every year that's going to really change the game or provide new opportunities to your clients. To my mind those are Instagram and Turntable FM, I think those are two new tools that are really changing the game. Changing the way people communicate, shifting power away from institution. Those are all groundswell things, but have a look at groundswell and take a look at those tools or the criteria for new valuable tools.
>> JESSICA KIRKWOOD: The only thing I might add is so as an organization and from my brand, we're all waiting for Google to sort of say how businesses are going to show up. The only thing I would add is whenever you're looking at new tools or any tools that you're using in social media, you might now start thinking about it in two ways: How does it work professionally and how does it work for a brand or company? Because they're often different and you may be able to bring that and say I can leverage how your CEO shows up here and I can leverage how your brand shows up here.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: Sadly we have time for maybe one more question. Where is Kristy.
>> AUDIENCE: It went back to tracking our traffic and stuff. Why do people use Compete? Because most of the time that's like 75% off what every other site is telling me but a lot of brands are asking me for my Compete score and I'm just I don't get it.
>> MELISSA LION: We don't use it.
>> MARCY MASSURA: So Compete is a Web site. Compete.com. It's kind of like wickedly fun. You can put in your friend's blog and put your blog in and see who's doing better, which sounds really fun and you can waste an afternoon. The problem is that it's wildly inaccurate. Because the way you know is that you know what your real numbers are, right? So you go to Google Analytics and you actually know what your page views are and then you run Compete and you're like okay, you're off by you know, several thousand. So then you have to imagine that whatever you're looking at might be off too. I don't know a lot of brands that are relying on it heavily. But I will say the problem is that that's our only access to being able to we have no visibility to people's page views, none. Zero, there's no thing we can't pay to see your page views. So other than kind of using that and engaging comments and kind of looking at engagement and whether you have a subscriber tracker number or whatever. So it's kind like out of desperation, I would say.
>> AUDIENCE: Can I add something?
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: If you're going to
>> AUDIENCE: The reason I use Compete is totally different.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: Please say it in the mic because we are recording.
>> AUDIENCE: I don't use it for analytics purposes because it is way off. But the value of Compete for me is to see what other blogs that are similar to mine where their traffic comes from, if they're getting a lot of traffic from FARK, I'm going to submit to FARK. It tells you it breaks down what sites those that they're getting traffic from.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: Those can be inaccurate too but they're good guidelines and they also can show you where people are going to and from. There's the whole sense of understanding who your audience is and who your potential audience is so I can totally see that.
So I'm just going to say a couple things and let each of you if you have a closing thought about this whole blog to job thank you all for being here. Great questions. And I thought the panelists were just great with the really practical wisdom. I do just want to do one housekeeping thing before I turn it over to them so you'll still be listening. Pick up your lunch in the Sails Pavilion and take it into the ballroom for the lunchtime keynote with Indra Nooyi, who is this incredibly powerful business woman who is coming here to talk about not just business but personal. I have seen her do it at the California's women's conference and I'm really fascinated to see in this environment what we learn about that line of personal and professional. So that's how it works. Pick up your lunch and take it in. Melissa I'll start with you and come this way. Any final thought about going from blog to job
>> MELISSA LION: My final thought and I say this at all convinces that I speak at is stop writing for free. Charge for your words.
>> MARCY MASSURA: No, I think the only thing I would say is value yourself in everything that you do. Or nobody's going to pay you for it. Helping is my hobby, feel free to reach out to me on Twitter if you have questions or if I can help guide you in any way. I'm happy to do so.
>> JESSICA KIRKWOOD: I just wanted to thank you for being here. It's a total honor to speak with you and I'll stick around if you have any questions.
>> ELISA CAMAHORT PAGE: We'll stick around if you want to come on up and ask questions, that's totally totally fine. Thank you.