The Madonna/Whore Dichotomy: What if Women are a Little of Both?

Great post, Suzzane!

Going by the dose of pop culture I get on television and the movies, I didn't figure the whore-Madonna syndrome was still such a big issue here.
I thought that was something we, the people of the "other world" had to deal with more often.

And yeah, if you are a guy sleeping around, then you are a stud worth salivating after. If you are a woman sleeping around, you are a slut. Grrrrrrrrr!@#$%.

But, but, but...about sex and marriage. I always thought marriage/long-term relationship was the ultimate license to try out many of your sexual fantasies, no?
Yeah, sure, you have to find a middle path that both can deal with, but it can be real fun, right?

I was wrong? Oooopsy! Didn't even realize it was an issue.

:)
Snigdha

Hey Suzanne, thanks for the link! I count making you blush as a compliment!

This post resonates with me. The way I've said it in the past is that women need to find their inner superwhore. And I mean that in the nicest possible way. :-)

That was very helpful, Gena, I think I understand how you were saying what you were saying better now.

My experience has been that those extremes aren't unreal or fake - they really do exist - both as something desired and something to be fulfilled. But neither one attains forever and ever. At different times, different elements of either caricature are my reality. That's just life - it's not what someone's told me.

My approach is to just reject the labels and deal with the people in front of me: my husband and myself and my kids. No one else's mores matter to me in the context of my relationship with my husband (to the extent there's no crime or injury to someone!).

To the extent that we want men and women to feel more free to reject the labels, I say amen to that. And I think that's part of what you are saying, yes?

Jill
Writes Like She Talks ( http://www.writeslikeshetalks.com )

This is tough stuff to think about let alone try to write. I wish I could do a better job of it. The Madonna - Whore icon implies that we are either asexual or living just to have sex.

What I see is non-negotiable is the fact that we are full spectrum sexual beings. We can't be locked down between those two polar opposites. We never should have been. That set of icons disallows the concept of a woman having a full range of sexual feelings and experiences. It also prevent women on a cultural level to fully express those feelings.

I can say that "I'm horny" and that brings up all kinds of negative stereotypes. It invokes thoughts of "too much information", class, entitlement, access and status. It sends me to hell by one group and gives a mistaken impression to those that think I want to act on my horniness at any given time.

So we operate in the hypocritical shadows. We have choices but the choices must be kept quiet. Which is why we have electric massage machines at the drug store with instructions that they should not be used for sexual excitement. Our sexuality hidden in plain sight.

We get marketed all the time by advertisers using sex. The standard implication is that we "good girls" can pretend to step over to the "bad girl" side by purchasing products. But what if I am in the middle point? What if I am neither good nor bad. just a person who has a sexual aspect to her total being?

Damn, still not getting to what I want to say. Each of us has a choice in our sexual expression and participation. That is our right. But when one of us goes near or beyond our patriarchal instructed boundaries like "Kristen" we heap scorn on her in order not to be tainted by association. That is not right.

I'm sorry Jill, I might have to take a class in human sexuality to express this properly.

Gena - Out On The Stoop ( http://outonthestoop.blogspot.com )

Gena -

I'm not sure what you're saying is non-negotiable. I always thought people exist along a continuum of desire - what they want for themselves, from themselves and for and from others. And that can change, as they get to know themselves and others and as their likes and dislikes change and their knowledge and experience informs them.

People - men- women - can call the extremes and everything in between whatever they want - the label doesn't mean anything - I agree with you on that. But wanting what is at what end and everything or nothing or some of what is in between on the way to the other end is okay too, no?

Do set me straight if I'm missing it. :)

Jill
Writes Like She Talks ( http://www.writeslikeshetalks.com )

Thanks for the link, Suzanne, but thanks especially for calling attention to how greviously no-win we get about sex. As I said at the end of that post, "So why do I blog about sex? The real question is why on earth more serious people don't!"

Take care,

figleaf

And only under certain conditions are we allowed to be sexual? We can't have it both ways folks. We are human beings. Human beings have sexual urges. It is not good nor bad. It is not a matter of sin or grace. We are human. This is non-negotiable.

Now yes, we all have overlay of what our respective societies, faith systems and culture tell us is appropriate. We absorb that crap and then spend years plucking the cooties off of us.

If you want to pay fee for services in order to satisfy sexual hunger (and are not a public figure who prosecutes other for doing the same) then go for it. For some folks it is the only means of sexual expression open to them.

If you want to invest in sex toys to release the pressure then I stand with you and wonder if you've tried that Purple gizmo yet? If you want to read amped up romance novels cool.

If you do not want to touch anyone until you found "the one" and marry him/her I'll back you 110%. I may have questions for you but if that is what you want so be it.

But let's not be locked between two impossible choices. These are patriarchal icons imposed by men. They do not define me sexually. They can't! I am more complicated than a asexual woman giving birth and a 24-7 sex machine.

We've got to expand our thinking about this.

Gena - Out On The Stoop ( http://outonthestoop.blogspot.com )

What a high-quality post, Suzanne.

For me, the bottom line comes down to discretion - that is, the use of discretion. When is something an experiment, when is something you experiment with a danger? Communication is mandatory when another person is involved in that experimenting or risk-taking or whatever we want to call trying things we're not sure about - whether it's because of right or wrong, not feeling okay or whatever.

I also think people should accept for themselves what they believe for themselves and leave others alone on some issues. Sorry to be vague but what would this world be like if we all had the exact same sensitivities? We would neither possess nor be able to see shades of anything. Sometimes, I love bright primary colors, but other days, I appreciate the break with a cooler, cloudy day. If everything and everyone was the same...I cannot even imagine. Even though I know that there are people who absolutely freak out when things change even the slightest bit.

Anyway - thanks for this post.

Jill
Writes Like She Talks ( http://www.writeslikeshetalks.com )

Thanks for asking the question Suzanne. It's one of my favorites - we are all both. to varying degrees certainly, but my body i intended to a lot f things. run, walk, sleep, carry me through my day, give birth to my children (IF i want to) and both give and receive pleasure. Indeed, time to stop demonizing!
___________
Alyssa Royse
JUST CAUSE
make some good news!
www.JustCauseIt.com ( http://www.JustCauseIt.com )

I am very impressed with what Figleaf wrote. It really struck me when I was reading it how we put both men and women between a rock and a hard place so to speak. Seeing all our ridiculous notions paired up together about what men and women should and shouldn't do was pretty shocking. While I've heard all these assumptions I don't think I've seen them listed all at once.

I've never had a problem with lingerie at showers. I've always seen it as a way to encourage women to enjoy sex. The showers I've attended are for friends of mine, though and it's more common than not for friends to have similar opinions. I was pretty impressed with my SIL's shower because it was a sex toy shower and the women were pretty upfront with wanting to achieve a great orgasm with sex and open to the various toys and creams. However, I've had many conversations with women who are in the position that Figleaf and you describe. Great post!
Alex Elliot, Formula Fed and Flexible Parenting ( http://www.flexibleparenting.com )