Bio
Learn more about me or just visit my personal blog or come bargain hunt with me. Writing? Check. Parenting? Check. Shopping for shoes? Check. Yep,...
 
 
 
 

What’s Hot on BlogHer.com

Recent Comments

Men and Women: Becoming more alike makes 'em more different. What?

  • Share This Post
  • submit
  • 10
  • Sparkle (
    )
     

John Tierney has written up a new research study in the New York Times with the scintillating title As External Barriers Disappear, Internal Gender Gaps Widen.

I read it over a couple of times. My head started to hurt, just a little. By the third paragraph he's bandied around the tired old Mars/Venus dichotomy twice, including to launch this shocking nugget:

It looks as if personality differences between men and women are smaller in traditional cultures like India's or Zimbabwe's than in the Netherlands or the United States. A husband and a stay-at-home wife in a patriarchal Botswanan clan seem to be more alike than a working couple in Denmark or France. The more Venus and Mars have equal rights and similar jobs, the more their personalities seem to diverge.

Aaaaaand... it continues in a similar vein from there. Eventually it concludes that men and women will just never understand each other! Oh well!

Science at work, people. (I had to pause and go take some Excedrin, myself.)

Over at The Swamp, the author comes up with what strikes me as a perfectly plausible explanation completely overlooked by the researchers:

An alternate interpretation is that more traditional cultures also have less variety in the employment options for people. In more modern societies, there may be a greater chance that you'll seek to set yourself apart from the other gender because there's a lot more media and advertising telling you what your gender role is. If you have the same job choices as a man, the fact that your society is more traditional won't make a difference. But if you have 500 options for jobs and you combine that with a similar pressure to do girly things, you'll have a greater gender divide.

Why, that almost sounds... logical.

The Times article also uses some sports examples to "prove" that men are always more competitive than women, for which Psychology Today blogger Paul Joannides takes them to task:

For an area where young women are out-competing and humiliating young men, we don't need to look much farther than the female-to-male ratios on our college campuses. It used to be that outside of places like Vassar and Sarah Lawrence, there were far more male than female students. Today, the opposite is true. In some colleges, women now outnumber men by 3-to-2 or more.

Now how did that happen if, as the Times tells us, men are the more competitive gender?

Oh, silly! That doesn't count, because it doesn't involve uniforms and medals, obviously.

Sheril at The Intersection isn't much impressed, either:

I'm a bit skeptical of these kind of cross-cultural tests--even when it's not hard to highlight anecdotal examples that support them. And while the data was 'crunched', a myriad of not-controlled-for, influential factors leaves me unconvinced... but interested.

After her post, her very first commenter remarks:

And why is this a surprise? If you're free to be anyone you want to be, I'd be surprised if less divergence occurred.

And then, of course, we have the folks who are just too shy to tell us what they really think of this study. Let's start with Amanda of Just Another NYC Blog, who says:

they always take these cockeyed studies and then draw whatever conclusions they want from them. oh, so gender differences are more pronounced in "civilized" countries than in "hunter-gatherer societies"? must be "the ancient internal differences being revived." that's the kind of conclusion that a ten year old would draw. it couldn't be that gender expectations actually increase more drastically in societies where there is technically more "freedom," so that people's behavior can still be kept in control.

(Nope, certainly couldn't be that.)

Or how about Salon's Catherine Price:

The article discusses a couple of arguments for why this might be (as well as counterarguments, such as the idea that people in different cultures might interpret personality test questions differently) -- including the idea that in animals, "environmental stress tends to disproportionately affect the larger sex and mute costly secondary sexual characteristics (like male birds' displays of plumage)." Wait -- so could it be that men in poor societies, struggling to survive, might be pressured into displaying the unattractive traits of being nurturing and emotionally responsive instead of allowing their sexy "emotional flatness" to shine? Sign me up for a Zimbabwe vacation!

(Oooh, baby. Show me you're a real tired old stereotype of a man!)

Echidne of the Snakes takes issue with both the conclusions and with the research field itself:

In short, I fail to see how cooperation

  • 10
  • Sparkle (
    )
     

Comments

Post comment as twitter logo facebook logo
Sort: Newest | Oldest
Liz Rizzo 5 pts

I had to just walk away after I read it.

I'm so sick of my innate characteristics like ambition and competitiveness being described as masculine, and being told that I am supposed to be nurturing and prefer cooperative activities.

I've got a dead plant and a 1st place Warrior Knights ribbon to show you. (It's a board game.)

I'm not masculine; This Is Women, Too.

Liz Rizzo ( http://blogher.org/blog/liz-rizzo )

I blog at Everyday Goddess ( http://everydaygoddess.typepad.com/ ).

Bill Cammack 5 pts

I see what you're saying.  Allowing people to trend towards "the middle" if that's their natural inclination.  That's different from deliberate attempts at behavior modification by people who have an agenda of getting the masses to conform.

Obviously, the more diversity, the better, because there's more likelihood of the concept "There's someone for everyone" coming true.  However, the way American society tends to work is that it can't or won't move forward without villifying its fomer stance.

It's not good enough to say "let people trend towards the middle".  What comes along with that is that the fringes are "bad".  Attempts are made to make people feel unprogressive or behind the times if they don't subscribe to the direction the stream is flowing now.  If it were just a situation of "let people be whomever they feel like they are", then I'd agree with you.  There's a type of male that's being pushed by the media at this point, similar to how the media has been pushing types of females forever.  Even female models can't retain the physiques of female models, and they still push American females to aspire to be skinny and tall in ways that their bodies will never ever match.  Whether this new male 'style' will lead to a better American society, time will tell.  We can only HOPE! :D

~ Bill ( http://billcammack.com )
I blog at billcammack.com ( http://billcammack.com )

nellewrites 6 pts

would join in, this is an interesting discussion, and I thank you for taking the time to discuss.

On the point of moving towards androgyny... that isn't really how I see it, though of course many do embrace such. Heck, it was my first way station in crossing gender lines.

Instead of moving towards, it is more expanding outward to incorporate androgyny into the mix. As an example of what I mean about expanding to incorporate, I'll raise a simple, one element item. Hair styles.

When I was a child, a guy had no hair, a quarter inch of hair, or maybe... hair no longer then 2 inches. That changed. Now a guy can shave his head, wear dreads, or wear it any length that suits him. His range of possibility with hair expanded, giving more choices.

And that is how I see tearing down walls on gender. We aren't simply exchanging one set of rules for another, we are trying to give everyone the freedom to assemble their particular package in ways that best suit and appeals to them. This creates greater diversity, not greater homogeneity or a reshuffling of the deck with the same stringent rules, just different individual elements.

If we tear down the walls, then we allow individuals to thrive, to be all they wish to be and feel they are. We tell each child they aren't weird or wrong for not being like another child, but that they are appreciated for their own particular package of self. When we teach to kids by knowing their strengths and weaknesses, if we know what pushes their buttons and what turns them off, we make huge, huge progress.

None of this necessarily renders men like women and vice versa. It expands the possibilities, increases the diversity... and appreciating diversity is one of the greatest things that comes with sentient life.

nelle ( http://refractivethoughts.org/ )

&

llhaesa ( http://llhaesa.org/ )

Bill Cammack 5 pts

I'm the FIRST one to say that societal constructs upset and confuse individuals that don't fit into the cookie-cutter mold.  Definitely, "making" people declare one affiliation or another causes a lot of them to choose 'walking the line' instead of doing what's natural to them.  Agreed there.

Agreed that schools are cookie-cutter, because they teach you useless stuff like Calculus.  Unless you go into a field that relies upon it, there's no reason for anyone to learn it, but it's still in the curriculum.

I think where we appear to disagree is on the concept of convergence.  You're talking about convergence as, let's say, "the ability for anyone to be able to do anything and receive the same credit and amount of pay, regardless of whether they're male or female".  IMO, nothing's lost as that box gets torn down.  Also, you bring up things like one side being strong and the other side being weak.  I don't feel anything's lost by tearing that box down either.  I'm sure there are lots of guys who date women who can beat them up for instance... or who are smarter than they are or went to a better school or have a more complicated and demanding career.  Nothing wrong there, AFAIC.

What I think is lost is kind of tough to explain. :)  It's the same thing that's lost when guys are brought up in all-female households and have no male role models.  The only experience of life that they grow up understanding is the female one, and I'm not putting THAT into a box.  I'm not saying that a woman raising a man makes him automatically weak or effeminate or whatever.  I'm sure there are lots of women raising male children on their own who are better, smarter, stronger and faster than the deadbeat dads or whatever the case may be.  I'll have to think about *exactly* what it is, so that's an excellent question, Nelle. :)  You've basically asked me to explain how I walk, which I can't explain to you other than the obvious surface reference of "I put one foot in front of the other", because I started walking as a baby and it's something that I do without understanding HOW I do it.  Breathing applies as well.  I'll definitely keep thinking about it and post an update here if I come up with something, but, yes... I believe the American trend towards androgyny is a downhill spiral as women lose their point of reference by having ZERO exposure to anything but these watered-down versions of males, similar to a male having no point of reference from being raised by females.

Having said that, and looking at it from your point of view, a trend towards androgeny is useful for women in other ways, and actually *does* signal a shift away from a traditional patriarchal society.  The less men expect from women, the less women will feel pressured to stay in shape or look good or be sexually enticing to their man or make less than he does or be physically weaker than he is, etc etc etc.   So it's definitely better for you than a system that's caused you to hide for 4 decades.  Also, with shows like "Dr. Phil", they're spoon-feeding y'all this type of guy as if he's what guys should strive to be, so women are getting more and more used to it.  So.. Yeah... "The Times, They Are A-Changin'..."

The other examples you mention are symptoms of misogyny for sure.  We're indoctrinated (or at least we USED TO BE, haha) with "Men are great!" and "Thank GOD we're men!" and "Male > Female" from ages before I think our first long term memories allow us to recall.  This is why "you play like a girl" is the WORST thing you can tell a player.  It's like saying he's ineffective... useless on the field.  Is that fair to women who can play football well?  No.  It's another one of those things that miiiiight go away as men and women trend towards similarity.

Anyway, I agree with you on most of your points about patriarchal society.  Back in February, 2008, I wrote "It’s The End of The World as We Know It! :(" ( http://billcammack.com/2008/02/03/its-the-end-of-t... ) about how guys' leverage in the dating game goes to ZERO if scientists figure out how to make babies utilizing female bone marrow.  I'm joking... kind of... But the point is that the whole game's about control, and the less control there is, the better it will be for people that don't fit into those boxes.

~ Bill ( http://billcammack.com )
I blog at billcammack.com ( http://billcammack.com )

nellewrites 6 pts

there are some differences between men and women; what we have to to take care with are societal construct issues. Those get in the way and harm women and men, forcing them into boxes that not everyone who happens to be male or female will fit into.

Our schools are cookie cutter in approach, one of the reasons why so many get left behind. When you force kids to exist in boxes they are naturally inclined not to be in, it creates issues. Been there.

When someone suggests men and women are converging, well... what is converging? Setting me aside, one who has in fact crossed gender lines, how in fact do men and women converge such that it is detrimental to both? What exactly do you feel is lost as we tear down these boxes?

On patriarchy... you will fiind rantings and such scattered in places in my blogs, and I tackle a fictional heavily patriarchal society that is sort of A Handmaids Tale-ish in some ways on my fiction blog.

Patriarchy expects us to conform to gender roles, and while I do not wish to speak for you, think you hint that some of the roles might be worthy. I'm listening.

It is what forced me to hide for 4 decades, what still depresses salaries and finds us with our second major ticket female candidate, none for the top spot. It's what forced my boss to go in the back door of an all male lodge when the company president held a meeting there (20 years ago.) What led my new boss 30 years ago, moments after he hired me - to ask 'how will you like working with a bunch of bitchy women?' Or the comments within this very decade but before I crossed gender lines - someone ranting to me about his spouse in ways that boiled me blood, but I tempered it into a redirect to ponder a different outlook - which he promptly dismissed.

It is what spurs outcry from the left or the right - misogyny can be found on both sides - when Palin was nominated. What makes fun of a man if he is perceived as effimininate - an entirely social measure. Is there truly anything to laugh about there? Looks like a human being, thinks like a human being, but he's... well he's... he acts like a girl!

And using that to segue into Bill Parcells and his infamous comment to Terry Glenn a decade or so ago 'you play like a girl.'

It is what assumes women are weak and men are strong. Identical resumes to find the one with a male sounding name gets selected more often. Or pregnant women to be fired because... they are pregnant (one I see occasionally in my employment.)

What deters some young men from embracing education - it isn't a macho thing to do. It is what leaves men having a harder time grasping and accepting gay or transgender, because of some vague perception of it threatening their masculinity. Patriarchy harms men, because not every man fits into its boxes...

now if a guy loves a particular box framework, wishes to live by it etc, more power to him. But just as I view choice as carrying a full range of options and any individual can go the route of the one that suits them, so to would I like to see a wide open playing field for everyone, and let them go where they are naturally inclined, rather than by being shoved there by artificial selection and forced redirection.

Many in the lgbt community have done the whole closet thing, it isn't very much fun. I know what those unwanted boxes are like, and don't really wish to see anyone categorised against their wishes.

Patriarchy is unbalanced and the unbalance creates problems. We need to bring back a strong and equal feminist element so that we have room for people to grow and be all they can be.

nelle ( http://refractivethoughts.org/ )

&

llhaesa ( http://llhaesa.org/ )

Bill Cammack 5 pts

 hmm... Interesting comments, Nelle.

I tried to re-read the article in the NYT, but it's restricted now.  IIRC, the article was about men getting along with women, not women getting along with women or men getting along with men, so the article never addressed homosexuality at all as far as I can remember.  So, no.  I don't think the article had anything to do with that topic, and I know that my statements had nothing to do with it.

Having said that, I agree with you that relationships in general are better when there are two GREAT people in the relationship instead of one or more LOUSY human beings.  I don't think the article addressed that either.  It wasn't saying that men are stronger than women and that's the way it needs to be in relationships.  It was saying that men are DIFFERENT from women, and now that those differences are being muted, relationships are becoming more difficult because there's no clearly defined yin and yang, as it were.  There are LOTS of situations where the woman is the stronger presence in the relationship.

I agree that gender is a complex issue.  Again, I don't think the study took any of the potential gender complications into account.  I only saw references to men (generic) and women (generic).

I would be interested to hear/read more about your "harmful patriarchy" concepts.  If you have anything you've written about it, please link it here or email it to me.  Unfortunately for women, there are lots of things that are harmful to you, because the whole point is control.  The more you think for yourselves, the less control men have over your bodies and your money.

So... If you'd like to elaborate, I could try again to answer what you seem to be getting at, but I don't want to assume and go off on an tangent that has nothing to do with what your actual point is.  The only thing I can say right now is that it doesn't appear to me that an article about women and men getting along has ANYTHING to do with women and women getting along or men and men getting along, so, no... that never entered my mind as I was responding to Mir's post about the NYT article.

~ Bill ( http://billcammack.com )
I blog at billcammack.com ( http://billcammack.com )

Mir Kamin 6 pts

Gender is a complex issue, it is hardly binary, and when coupled with the range of variation in physical sex and with orientation... each of us on this planet comes out as unique.

Well put, Nelle. I think that's an important point.

Bill, you know it's always good to see you, but the whole "we only need each other if we're completely different" thing... well, let's just say you'll have a hard time convincing me of that one. ;)

--
Mir Kamin
(BlogHer contributing editor)

Personal: Woulda Coulda Shoulda ( http://wouldashoulda.com/ )

Having it all with less: Want Not ( http://wantnot.net/ )

nellewrites 6 pts

This is going to allow them to relate to each other BETTER than a man
and woman that have the exact same job and live in the exact same place
and do the exact same things, because they don't need each other AT
ALL, and they don't naturally have anything drawing them to each other
or making each dependent on the other to have a good life.

That doesn't well explain me and countless other gay folk. It has taken me a long time to get here via a very roundabout path, but... relationships are stronger, not weaker when both people come to the relationship as strong, independent people.

That is different from ultimately sharing all of self and being completely vulnerable to each other, but having an independent life and interests is a good thing, being there because each wishes to be there is a good thing.

Trust couple with independence, strength, etc take away issues that can come with emotional dependence. These interdependent things reduce the likelihood of their being control or abuse issues.

Gender is a complex issue, it is hardly binary, and when coupled with the range of variation in physical sex and with orientation... each of us on this planet comes out as unique.

Patriarchy is harmful to both women and men, though relatively few men I interact with are prepared to see or admit this. That we are slowly working to cast it off and come to some modified, modern societal framework is a very good thing.

nelle ( http://refractivethoughts.org/ )

&

llhaesa ( http://llhaesa.org/ )

Bill Cammack 5 pts

MIIIRRRRRR!!! :D  What's Shakin'? ;)

That was a cute article in The Times, and I'm glad they polled so many people, but the real issue is what each "side" is bringing to the table.

If we roll back American gender roles 40 years or so, it was very clear what the guy was bringing and what the girl was bringing to the relationship.  Except for well-documented and obvious situations, the guy was in charge of "bringing home the bacon" and the girl was in charge of having and raising the kids.  The guy made the social connections and the girl entertained them when they threw dinner parties.

That's over now.

At this point, women are making their own money, so "bringing home the bacon" doesn't get a guy a leg up in the relationship.  As a matter of fact... NOTHING gets a guy a leg up in the relationship, so women are choosing "different men".  Women are dating men that are more like women now.. or to put it another way, the lines between the gender roles has been blurred to the point that men are carrying women's bags and wearing women's shoes as if it's cool.

This is why there are more differences in "civilized" locations.  The men are not DIFFERENT ENOUGH from women for women to be able to relate to them properly.  Meanwhile, women have gotten used to this and are completely oblivious to how little they're actually attracted to these men, because they have no point of reference.

In "a patriarchal Botswanan clan", the woman understands, naturally, WHY she's with her man, and her man understands WHY he's with his woman, because they're bringing different things to the table.  This is going to allow them to relate to each other BETTER than a man and woman that have the exact same job and live in the exact same place and do the exact same things, because they don't need each other AT ALL, and they don't naturally have anything drawing them to each other or making each dependent on the other to have a good life.

This is why the cheating and divorce rates are so high, because people that don't need each other are hooking up for the slightest of reasons instead of innate desires and the actual NEED for the other person to be in their lives in order for them to achieve what they'd planned.

So.. Yeah... The more men trend towards being women, the LESS women are going to be able to relate to and understand them.

~ Bill ( http://billcammack.com )
I blog at billcammack.com ( http://billcammack.com )

nellewrites 6 pts

before I comment on other aspects, just wished to say the most competitive person I've ever met is also a mom to a soon to be 5 year old. Its not even close, and my roomie in college was an All-American goalie (men's team.)

Such a study starts out presuming that patriarchy is not a huge factor in our society, and that is a fundamental flaw from the get go. And we who reside in these western countries tend to socialise in similar ways, as contrasted with some more traditional societies.

There are some interesting differences to be found out there, in Albania where a woman can assume a position as head of family, role swapping to what is traditionally a male role. With it, she adopts a similar way of living. And on Samoa, there are men who move in to assume a role traditionally held by women. Hawaii has the Mahu.

Occasionally we end up in some discussion on Islam and feminism, and I've chatted with a few who embrace Islam yet consider themselves feminists, will argue wearing Burqa and such is empowering. It bothers me that people tend to blow off their outlook, thinking we know better.

I'm leery of such studies and findings, and need only think back to that dumb Bell Curve book 13 or so years ago. When it comes to studying and theorising things from a social science perspective, we've a long way to go.

nelle ( http://refractivethoughts.org/ )

&

llhaesa ( http://llhaesa.org/ )