My Take on the Vice Presidential Debate

Okay, I love your back-handed compliment about me being correct.  You say that  I'm right and then you post some completely UNRELATED story to the Keating 5 incident.  So what if John Glenn is endorsing Obama now? So what if Obama didn't mention it  (if that in fact is even true --which I don't take much that Republicans say as fact in this campaign because so much of it is fabrication)?  How does this make him a hypocrite?  It doesn't.  Glenn, like McCain, was accused of wrong-doing.  This doesn't change the fact that JOHN MCCAIN WAS ACCUSED OF WRONG-DOING.  And just in case you don't get it, John Glenn isn't running for President, but JOHN MCAIN is.  That's the key difference between the two. 

And I'm not making irrational leaps, you are.  You are saying on one hand that you know that John McCain committed wrong-doing, but then you will throw in some off the wall comment that has nothing to do with the REAL ISSUES (like the references to Ayers).   And what reform has John McCain achieved in the political system? This is another one of those blanket statements that Republicans love to throw out there as fact -- believing that no one will challenge it.  Well, in case you haven't noticed, the American people are challenging.  I for one am tired of the generic politics as usual.   "Reform" and "working across the aisle"   Rhetoric.  Nothing more. Period.  If John McCain was such a maverick reformer, there would be no doubt to his record.  He wouldn't need to tout it himself.  It would be common knowledge, and guess what (for a man that has been around as long as he has), it's not!  Which speaks for itself.  So, what we need is some new blood.  Some fresh perspective and ideas.  Which is what Obama will bring to the table.  Change. By the way, if McCain is such a reformer of the political system why does he have so many lobbyists working for him? 

PS What is this reference to Kool Aid?  Maybe you drink Kool Aid, but I certainly don't.   

I agreed with your reflections on Governor Palin's tactics during the debate.  I was also appalled that so few people seem to find it singularly inappropriate for someone aspiring to one of the highest offices in the country to constantly use such poor grammer and pronunciation.  I spent 25 years in Alaska, and raised three children there.  I am mystified on where or how her speech patterns and accent have evolved from; I don't know anyone from Wasilla who sounds like that.

Yes MJ, you are correct, when you Google Keating 5 there are a ton of sources and FACTS about this story. I liked this story the best ...

"You don't get introduced by John Glenn every day," Bruce Springsteen said yesterday at an Obama get-out-the-vote rally at Ohio State University.  Former Sen. John Glenn, D-Ohio, was -- along with Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz. -- one of the Keating Five, the handful of senators who met with federal regulators to urge them to ease up on the savings and loan owned by contributor Charles Keating.  Hours after Glenn introduced the Boss at the Obama rally, the Obama campaign launched a campaign attacking McCain for his Keating Five activities. They made no mention of Mr. Glenn."
Now, stop drinking the kool-aid for a few minutes and stop making irrational leaps in logic about where you think I stand on this issue. Read my post carefully, ... for the record, I believe that the Keating 5 scandal is a legitimate political issue in this campaign. As you can see in my last post, I don't deny the facts of the story. The Keating 5 story involves McCain's judgment and political record, and Obama can certainly raise it as a point for voters to consider.

Like I stated, McCain has never denied using poor judgment in this case and has repeatedly apologized for it. Again, his record shows that he used the experience to commit himself to reforming the political system. In fact, he angered many fellow Repubs while fighting earmarks and pushing for campaign-finance reform. Before you start dismissing this as lies or propaganda, all of this information can be researched and proved to be factual by looking at his Senate voting record. McCain worked across the aisle with Russ Feingold and other Democrats in this mission.

Now let's talk about Obama's Senate voting record on reform, ... oh, I forgot we can't do that because Obama has nothing on record that shows that he fought anyone for reform. Moving on, let's talk about Senator John Glenn ... John Glenn showed very bad judgment with the Keating 5 scandal as well, yet the Obama camp has no problem using Glenn as a surrogate. Hmm, this sure makes Obama look like a hypocrite in raising the Keating 5 scandal, doesn't it. 

To quote Ed Morrissey, "If Glenn is clean, then so is McCain. If McCain is tarnished, then so is Glenn. Obviously, Glenn helps Obama in Ohio, so Obama has no real complaint over the Keating 5 scandal that outweighs his desire to win the election. Like so much of Obama's reform rhetoric, his faux outrage over the Keating 5 scandal shows him as nothing more than a poseur."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/10/a-...

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/06/obamas-keati... ( http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/06/obamas-keati... )

And? And?

Did Obama build a bomb? Did Obama condone what Ayers did? Did Obama ever advocate violence? Has Obama ever come out in support of anything that any of the radical groups did when he was a little kid? 

We're not voting for Ayers, and Ayers is not going to be on Obama's cabinet. Nor is Ayers an influence on Obama -- unless we want to think that Obama in his 40's isn't capable of knowing his own mind. 

 I still stand by what I said earlier -- if you're going to condemn Obama than you're going to condemn the University of Illinois, Columbia University, the state of Illinois, and most likely most of the educators in this country because they all shared space with Ayers. If you want to blanket convict a person by association, then it's also fair to open season on Todd Palin, who is actually married to one of the candidates, and belonged to a party advocating succession from the US. The man is still not a registered Republican -- he still supports his old party. He's not in this for the country, he's in this for his own agenda. Just hoping his wife gets into office so they can destroy ANWR and profit from all that oil money.

 Finally...Keating...Keating...Keating...for every Ayers you play, I'll see you a Keating and raise you  a Graham. 

FACT: Ayers confessed to bombing the pentagon.

FACT: Ayers held a political fund raiser at his home for Obama.

The Obama–Ayers controversy arose during the 2008 U.S. presidential campaign regarding Democratic ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_%28U... ) Presidential nominee Barack Obama ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama )'s contact with Bill Ayers ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers ), a Distinguished Professor ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinguished_Profess... ) at the University of Illinois at Chicago ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Illinoi... ), and a former leader of the Weather Underground ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_%28organiz... ).[1] ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers_election_c... ) He served on two nonprofit boards with Barack Obama. Both Ayers and his wife, Bernardine Dohrn ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernardine_Dohrn ), hosted a meet-and-greet for Obama at their home in 1995, where Alice Palmer ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Palmer_%28Illin... ) introduced Obama as her chosen successor[citation needed ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_ne... )] in the Illinois State Senate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers_election_c...

Woo Hoo!  More slanted news coverage!  Maybe Geraldo will come over from FOX and they'll dig up a 2-headed love child between Ayers and Obama!  Now that would be a story!  Who needs to focus on the issues when you have sensationalism?!!!!!!  

You don't like Wikipedia?  Okay, google Keating 5 -- there are a ton of other sources out there to pick from that all tell the same story.   It doesn't change the facts!  FACTS!  You do know what those are, right?  Um, never mind. Maybe you don't.   I only included portions of the article, because it is HUGE and I wanted to make sure the most important parts were included here.  To save everyone else the work from looking it up for yourself. 

Keep spewing your garbage about Obama (the Ayers story, etc., Truth Squads, whatever). It's all propaganda and lies.  It must be terrible not to have a leg to stand on.  Wait!  Which candidate running for president wasn't accused of wrong-doing and poor judgement?  Oh yes, that would be Obama.  So, the question is why are you continuing to yell about Obama's connections, girl?   This article is proof of wrong-doing by the Repub candidate -- sorry for his actions or not.  By the way, boo hoo. Can we trust that there won't be anymore wrongdoing if we give him the highest appointment in the land?  HMMM... Let me think about that one.  No. No, we cant.     

Wow, CNN is finally doing some actual investigative reporting on the Obama and Ayers relationship!  The end must be near! Lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvROBLortBQ

Wikipedia isn't exactly the best source to use since anybody can post information on it and claim that it's a fact. Interesting how you left out a lot of important details in your cut and paste about the fact that McCain was exonerated of any wrong doing and was censured for using 'poor judgment'.

Facts about the Keating scandal, McCain was investigated extensively and exonerated. None of this history is a big secret. It's a fact that McCain was never implicated in any wrong-doing. McCain admitted poor judgment and he is on the record for saying, "it was the biggest mistake of my life."

However, McCain was censured for showing "poor judgment" in setting up a meeting. McCain has never run from this record; at the time he was very open with the media and answered many questions for the press until all questions were exhausted.

In fact the Keating Five Scandal is what prompted McCain to make campaign finance reform his signature issue - he admitted his mistake and then worked (successfully) to amend the culture that encourages that sort of cozy lobbyist-lawmaker relationship.

Unlike Obama, McCain doesn't hide from his own record, and he doesn't try to silence people when they say negative things about him, (Google Truth Squads). Obama not only doesn't want anyone looking into his past relationships with known radicals he also tell flat-out lies about those connections.

McCain was exonerated of any wrong doing. Therefore, as far as this election is concerned, the Keating affair is a non-story. But if you want to continue yelling about it, you go for it girl!  If Obama wants to waste time and money on a non-issue that's fine with me. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keating_Five

McCain and Keating had become personal friends following their initial contacts in 1981,[11] ( http://www.blogher.com/#cite_note-alex-k5-1-10 ) and McCain was the only one of the five with close social and personal ties to Keating.[35] ( http://www.blogher.com/#cite_note-34 )[36] ( http://www.blogher.com/#cite_note-35 ) Like DeConcini, McCain considered Keating a constituent as he lived in Arizona.[28] ( http://www.blogher.com/#cite_note-nyt110589-27 ) Between 1982 and 1987, McCain had received $112,000 in political contributions from Keating and his associates.[37] ( http://www.blogher.com/#cite_note-36 ) In addition, McCain's wife Cindy McCain ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Cindy_McCain ) and her father Jim Hensley ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Jim_Hensley ) had invested $359,100 in a Keating shopping center in April 1986, a year before McCain met with the regulators. McCain, his family, and their baby-sitter had made nine trips at Keating's expense, sometimes aboard Keating's jet. Three of the trips were made during vacations to Keating's opulent Bahamas ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Bahamas ) retreat at Cat Cay ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Cat_Cay ). McCain did not pay Keating (in the amount of $13,433) for some of the trips until years after they were taken, when he learned that Keating was in trouble over Lincoln.[7] ( http://www.blogher.com/#cite_note-az-keating-6 )[38] ( http://www.blogher.com/#cite_note-37 ) In 1989 Phoenix New Times ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Phoenix_New_Times ) writer Tom Fitzpatrick opined that McCain was the "most reprehensible" of the five senators.[39] ( http://www.blogher.com/#cite_note-38 )

I am in agreement with Shellyp.  And for the record, Ayers wasn't  convicted, but Charles Keating (of the Keating 5 -- a close associate of John McCain's)  served 5 years.  And this was a scandal that John McCain was directly involved in.  Here's the link for you to read about it yourself  --  Wikipedia -- Just so no one can say it is a SLANTED source.  NO SLANT in Wikipedia.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keating_Five

 The Keating Five were five United States Senators ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/United_States_Senator ) accused of corruption in 1989, igniting a major political scandal ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Political_scandal ) as part of the larger Savings and Loan crisis ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Savings_and_Loan_crisi... ) of the late 1980s and early 1990s. The five senators, Alan Cranston ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Alan_Cranston ) (D ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Democratic_Party_(Unit... )-CA ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/California )), Dennis DeConcini ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Dennis_DeConcini ) (D ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Democratic_Party_(Unit... )-AZ ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Arizona )), John Glenn ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/John_Glenn ) (D ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Democratic_Party_(Unit... )-OH ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Ohio )), John McCain ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/John_McCain ) (R ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Republican_Party_(Unit... )-AZ ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Arizona )), and Donald W. Riegle ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Donald_W._Riegle,_Jr. ) (D ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Democratic_Party_(Unit... )-MI ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Michigan )), were accused of improperly intervening in 1987 on behalf of Charles H. Keating, Jr. ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Charles_Keating ), chairman of the Lincoln Savings and Loan Association ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Lincoln_Savings_and_Lo... ), which was the target of a regulatory investigation by the Federal Home Loan Bank Board ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Federal_Home_Loan_Bank... ) (FHLBB). The FHLBB subsequently backed off taking action against Lincoln.

Lincoln Savings and Loan collapsed in 1989, at a cost of $2 billion to the federal government. Some 23,000 Lincoln bondholders were defrauded and many elderly investors lost their life savings. The substantial political contributions that Keating had made to each of the senators, totalling $1.3 million, attracted considerable public and media attention. After a lengthy investigation, the Senate Ethics Committee ( http://www.blogher.com/wiki/Senate_Ethics_Committe... ) determined in 1991 that Alan Cranston, Dennis DeConcini, and Donald Riegle had substantially and improperly interfered with the FHLBB in its investigation of Lincoln Savings, with Cranston receiving a formal reprimand. Senators John Glenn and John McCain were cleared of having acted improperly but were criticized for having exercised "poor judgment".

Lets keep the focus on the economy and judge the candidates on what really matters , What have they DONE ??   Has anyone ever been to the South Side of Chicago ??? I have - many times .
The residents there have been surviving in sub-standard conditions for years . There are no jobs , crime is rampant , and the housing conditions are so poor it is a complimentary exaggeration to call them slums .
The word ‘projects’ indicates a work in progress , but on the Chicago’s south side it takes on a different meaning - a stagnant , decaying slum . 11 of these deplorable buildings on the south side are owned by Obama’s friend Tony Rezco .
Obama funneled State money to Rezco to ” improve conditions in those buildings ‘ - never happened .
Obama also funneled $100,000 for a ‘ let them eat cake’ gazebo on the south side . The gazebo was never built even though I am sure that those families who are living in falling down buildings in crime infested neighborhoods were really hoping for a freaking gazebo .
Sen. Obama handed his wife’s employer a 1 million dollar earmark . He requested 3 million to update a projector at the Sky Theater .
Trinity Church and Rev. Pfleger benefited from the 100 million dollars Obama doled out for the Annenberg Challenge which was SUPPOSED to have been used to help the failing public school system .
Some of the programs Obama turned down for grants were : The Chicago Algebra project , and The District 5 Math Initiative - both are worthy projects that the public school system desperately needed to finance . Meanwhile , Obama’s buddies , and radical groups received millions .
When you go to vote this year , I would encourage you to check out the South Side of Chicago , Obama’s own Senate district . See what “Change” Obama has brought to his own district . Take a look at how his ‘leadership’ has ‘improved’ his own community , and then ask yourself , ” If Senator Obama doesn't care about his own community, what will he do for me ?” Talk about a " Housing crisis " .....

 Please Shelleyp, let's get our facts completely straight here.  Regarding William Ayres, he was released due to a technicality.  There is absolutely NO DOUBT that he was responsible both directly and indirectly of the activities of the weather group; he is self-confessed to those crimes, therefore, there really is NO question that he is guilty of those actions.

 I personally do not want to do anything so ridiculous as to condemn other teachers in the school for which he has worked; or students attending his classes, nor would I surely condemn stores where he has shopped, etc., but I MOST assuredly do condemn him for his actions then.  There are other members of his group who are in prison; fortunately they did not get off on a technicality.  What I question is that his political views (Ayres) were and are radical and he espoused violence, actually terrorism to his own country.  I question since the things he says indicate that he is still of that same mind set what kind of attitude he teaches, but I hope that those who are in charge of overseeing the college that he works for to make sure that he does not teach those same attitudes to his students.  As to what actions and philosophies he espouses privately and in discussions with others who are in his home, etc., I would fear that he would be of a mind to influence others of that same philosophy. 

What you are not looking at, in my humble opinion, is that there are many examples of people who have been an influence on Senator Obama who do not love this country and William Ayres is only one of them.

LeeAnn

"Nameste"

Simply yelling liar is enough, and everyone knows it -- including you.  When you're ready to have a real discussion (which by the looks of your posts will be never), I'd be glad to show you where the errors are.  Until then, keep spewing propaganda, and I'll save my breath to campaign for Obama.   

You know John McCain's tax policy would not provide any relief for working families but would rather give tax breaks to the wealthy, right?

You know your numbers are utterly incorrect and all spin, right?

Don't take my word for it.  It's all in black and white here ( http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/UploadedPDF/411693_... ).

Visit my blogs at ThreeSeven ( http://www.threeseven.ca ) (all that's irrelevant and amusing) and
ecochick ( http://www.ecochick.ca ) (all that's green, cool and Canadian).

Was Ayers convicted? Or do you also disagree with the Constitution and our rights of innocent until proven guilty?

if you want to condemn, then you have to condemn the entire education system in the country. Ayers is well known, and respected, in the educational community. He's worked with many teachers from many different colleges and school systems. 

Do you want to, then, just give a blanket condemnation of all schools? All colleges? All teachers? All professors? If yours is an argument of guilt by association, then you must. 

You can't just blow off my statement -- we don't know which schools and teachers associated with Ayers, so we must condemn them all. 

Then we must turn on the courts that actually let Ayers go free, unconvicted. So we must condemn the courts. Lets not stop there--let's also condemn the Constitution. After all, it's because of the Constitution that Ayers, a person you know for a fact, because you were a witness and saw him set bombs, was let free. 

So let's add up the condemned: Obama, every teacher in every school, every professor in college, most criminal courts, and the Constitution. 

Oh, I imagine that Ayers shops at stores, so we need to condemn the people who serve him. 

 When do we end the "guilt by association"? When you're satisfied? 

Republicans: targetting the scared and the gullible.

Next time link, such as the following:

Washington Post side by side ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story... )

Then there's this ( http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/06/dril... ), which covers many of the tax "claims" you mention. What I found most interesting, though, is Karl Rove's statement that talking about taxes and cutting taxes is not the end all, be all anymore. People's concerns are the stability of the economy and health care coverage. Plus I imagine most of us are doing the math: the supposed tax and spend liberals end up with a budget surplus, while the tax cutting Republican ends up with a massive deficit.

So the tax ghost has gone "boo" one too many times and the kiddies just aren't shrieking in fear.

Now, why don't you focus on McCain wanting to drastically cut Medicare, instead?

is that she can copy and paste. :)

 This is the same kind of attack that bore the "obama is a muslim" rumours. It's garbage. When you say "a source said" or "an attendee said", it's crap. It's partisan nonsense, made up to smear because you can't find anything of substance to actually call Obama to task on. Unlike the Keating 5 scandal where John McCain was proven to have been influenced by money and was admonished by his own government as having shown poor judgement, which is a matter of public record. 

Visit my blogs at ThreeSeven ( http://www.threeseven.ca ) (all that's irrelevant and amusing) and
ecochick ( http://www.ecochick.ca ) (all that's green, cool and Canadian).

I think Naomi right...my husband thinks there won't be an election...they will come up with somethine ELSE to stop it.

They tried with the bail out bill..the panic in the streets.

Read up on fascism....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XgkeTanCGI 

Look for me at http://crunchycarpets.com or check out the ladies at www.wetcoastwomen.com ( http://www.wetcoastwomen.com )

You've got to be kidding me?  You are trying to say that Obama voted with Bush 90% of the time?  Did you make this up yourself?  It sounds like McCain's record that you are quoting.  I think you need to check your facts.  Better yet, log into Obama's website (or an Independent site, if you'd like) and take a look at his record for yourself.   It is all smoke and mirrors.  The Republicans use it frequently.  It detracts from discussing the real issues.  And frankly, I'm tired of the discussion.  What this country needs is REAL change.  Heaven knows that we are in a world of hurt right now -- outrageous gas and food prices, banks failing, a mortgage crisis.  But let's keep blaming it on the Democrats when we've had 8 years of Republicans.  Sure, just what we need  -- more of the same. The real discussion should be centered on how these issues are going to be solved and by whom instead of partisan bickering.   

Senator McCain does have the experience, but Palin has none.  Unfortunately, with a Repub president,  there would be no real change in those that are running this country. The list of indictments and questionable practices is lengthy.  These are the real issues that need to be addressed.  We have to be willing to think "out of the box" to get to that discussion though.  This is something I believe a new administration would do for this country and something Obama has alluded to. This is something that he will address when he's elected. 

And let's set the fear-mongering aside.  Our country is no safer now than it was on September 11th.   Either president is going to keep our country safe.  That is what they are appointed to do. 

 The flip-flop king has a record of talking about one thing to one audience and another thing to another audience... and that's the kind of record you want to brag about?  If you will check the actual facts, you will see that Obama has voted along with President Bush's position over 90% of the time.

It's simply amazing to me how the Democrats fall into the party line.  Senator Biden stated very clearly in the primaries that Senator Obama did not have enough experience to lead this nation and yet now, he's on the ticket.  Now, Senator Obama has the experience I guess.

Senator McCain does have the experience and furthermore, I believe that he and Governor Palin will lead this country in a direction that we can all be proud of; he and Governor Palin will help to keep this country safe from the many threats we face.

If I'm wrong, please show me were the errors are? Simply yelling "liar" is not enough.

I have an email that was sent by some unknown Republican organization, and it shows these exact (MADE UP) figures.  I verified it with Obama's tax plan, and this is absolute garbage!!  Just thought I'd let everyone know.  Why are people stooping to lying in this election?  I think you need to verify your figures Toto. 

 McCain's good buddy is convicted terrorist and felon G Gordon Liddy.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/05/g-gordon-... ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/05/g-gordon-... )

"Last November, McCain went on his radio show. Liddy greeted him as "an
old friend," and McCain sounded like one. "I'm proud of you, I'm proud
of your family," he gushed. "It's always a pleasure for me to come on
your program, Gordon, and congratulations on your continued success and
adherence to the principles and philosophies that keep our nation
great."

 He is pretty much his generation's Timothy McVeigh. 

Thiis isn't a casual relationship. This is a long term friendship. 

Are you okay with this?

Mom-101 ( http://mom-101.blogspot.com )

Yes, I condemn any University that would hire a known unrepentant terrorist of the United States to teach our children.    

I think you missed my point. I'm not anti-income tax. I'm for a "fair" tax system, not a system that wants to punish some Americans by redistributing their wealth to the middle class or the poor, (who btw, currently don't pay income taxes). I'm not for a system that says ‘we need to raise taxes on the wealthy because they need to be more patriotic.' Obama's tax plan is bordering on socialism. Obama's tax plan will hurt many small businesses. The simple answer to this dilemma can be found in the IRS Statistics of Income Bulletin (Table 1.4, for those who are interested).

The data says this -

In 2006 (the latest year available), $706 billion of such income was reported to the IRS. Of this, about half was reported by households in the top marginal income tax rate. Interestingly, two-thirds of this income was reported by households making $250,000 per year or more - the very same households that Obama wants to increase taxes on.

The Obama campaign maintains that the number of small-business owners is what's important. Economists know what matters is the tax rate that's applied to the bulk of small-business income. Make no mistake about it: Obama's plan to raise taxes on households making more than $250,000 will raise taxes on most small-business profits in America.

With this current economic crisis in America is raising taxes the answer? Raising taxes will not help ease the financial burden; instead it will hurt us more.

Answer this important question; of what impact do higher taxes have on work and productivity (and hence the economy), especially among our most industrious and innovative citizens?

Would you rather have an April 15th with McCain or with Obama?
Here's the comparison: (sorry for the length)

Top Tax Rate
Current: 35%
McCain: 35%
Obama: 39.6%

McCain would keep the top tax rate on earned income at the current 35%. Obama would raise it to 39.6%.

Lowest Tax Rate
Current: 10%
McCain: 10%
Obama: 15%

Currently - and under a McCain Administration - the lowest tax rate on earned income would remain at 10%. Under Obama, the lowest rate would increase by half - 50%. Clearly, people at this tax level are not the much-maligned "rich people."

Capital Gains Rate
Current: 15%
McCain: 15%
Obama: 20%

For taxes on capital gains from the sale of a house or your other assets, McCain would keep the rate the same. Obama would raise it from 15% to 20%.

Dividends Rate
Current: 15%
McCain: 15%
Obama: 39.6%

On dividends from stocks or mutual funds you own, McCain would keep the tax rate the same. Obama would more than double it.

Death Tax
Currnet: 0% by 2010 (Repealed)
McCain: 15%/$10 million
Obama: 55%/$1 million

Under McCain, the first $5 million ($10 million for a surviving spouse) of Inheritance (Death) tax on an estate would be death tax-exempt McCain would tax at a rate of 15% on estates worth over $10 million. Obama would tax at a whopping 55% on estates over just ONE million dollars.

Marriage Penalty
Current: None Under $150,000
McCain: None Under $150,000
Obama: Full Penalty from Dollar One

The "marriage penalty" refers to a married couple paying a higher amount of combined income tax than if they each filed taxes as single. McCain wants no marriage penalty for couple making less than $150,000. Obama wants the penalty to start with the first dollar they earn.

Child Tax Credit
Current: $1000
McCain: $1000
Obama: $500

Basically, Obama would cut the current child tax credit in half. McCain would let it remain the same.

AMT Rate [Alternative Minimum Tax]
Current: 28%
McCain: 0% (Repealed)
Obama: 28%

The "alternative minimum tax" (AMT) requires taxpayers to calculate their taxes two ways, and pay whichever method results in a higher tax owed. McCain would do away with the ATM

Self-Employment Rate
Curreent: 37.9%
McCain: 37.9%
Obama: 54.9%

Self-employed taxpayers pay both ordinary income tax and self-employment tax (Social Security and Medicare). Under Obama, the rate would rise from 37.9% to 54.9%. Under McCain, it would stay the same.

Corporate Income Tax
Current: 35%
McCain: 25%
Obama: 35%

The U.S. corporate income tax is currently the second-highest in the developed world. The average European corporate income tax rate is about 25%

Business Infrastructure
Current: Long and Complex Depreciation
McCain: Full Expensing
Obama: Long and Complex Depreciation

Depreciation/Expensing: It takes larger businesses several years to deduct machinery and equipment, even though they purchase the business asset in year one (e.g. a computer must be slowly-deducted over six calendar years)

1 The first $5 million ($10 million for a surviving spouse) of an estate would be death
tax-exempt
2 The "marriage penalty" refers to a married couple paying a higher amount of
combined income tax than if they each filed taxes as single
3 The "alternative minimum tax" (AMT) requires taxpayers to calculate their taxes two
ways, and pay whichever method results in a higher tax owed
4 Self-employed taxpayers pay both ordinary income tax and self-employment tax
(Social Security and Medicare)
5 The U.S. corporate income tax is currently the second-highest in the developed world.
The average European corporate income tax rate is about 25%
6 It takes larger businesses several years to deduct machinery and equipment, even
though they purchase the business asset in year one (e.g. a computer must be slowlydeducted
over six calendar years)

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0708/11670.ht...
http://atr.org/content/html/2008/june/0616-obama_m...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story... ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story... )

And this is supposed to show something other than you can read?

 Or do you want to also condemn the entire University of Illinois, since he's a respected professor of education?

Would you also like to condemn the entire system of education in the United States -- yes, every teacher, every principal--since he has appeared with many and in front of many on various panels?

Since we're talking about casual associations, how many of us want to vet every person we serve with on boards, committees and so on, because we may be condemned for these associations at some future time? Perhaps we should include Sarah Palin in this list, since her husband, Todd Palin is a former member of a group urging that Alaska succeed from the union.

You attack the person on the flimsiest grounds because you know, in your heart, that if it came to the issues, McCain would lose. I would rather have Obama, who represents hope, than that pathetic creature who has given up all of his dignity and ethics in a desperate political bid.

All we see now is a petty, bitter old man desperate to be president -- so desperate that he resorts to the most dispacable of character assasinations and gimmicks, just to win.

And you can take that back to PUMA and tell them to put it where the sun don't shine.

In 1995, During Obama's First State Senate Campaign, William Ayers And Wife Bernadine Dohrn Hosted A Meeting Of Chicago Liberals At Their Home For Obama, Which One Attendee Said Was Aimed At "Launching Him." "In 1995, State Senator Alice Palmer introduced her chosen successor, Barack Obama, to a few of the district's influential liberals at the home of two well known figures on the local left: William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn. While Ayers and Dohrn may be thought of in Hyde Park as local activists, they're better known nationally as two of the most notorious -- and unrepentant -- figures from the violent fringe of the 1960s anti-war movement. ... 'I can remember being one of a small group of people who came to Bill Ayers' house to learn that Alice Palmer was stepping down from the senate and running for Congress,' said Dr. Quentin Young, a prominent Chicago physician and advocate for single-payer health care, of the info rmal gathering at the home of Ayers and his wife, Dohrn. '[Palmer] identified [Obama] as her successor.' ... Dr. Young and another guest, Maria Warren, described it similarly: as an introduction to Hyde Park liberals of the handpicked successor to Palmer, a well-regarded figure on the left. 'When I first met Barack Obama, he was giving a standard, innocuous little talk in the living room of those two legends-in-their-own-minds, Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn,' Warren wrote on her blog in 2005. 'They were launching him -- introducing him to the Hyde Park community as the best thing since sliced bread.'" (Ben Smith, "Obama Once Visited '60s Radicals," The Politico, 1/22/08)

From March Of 1995 Until September Of 1997, Obama And Ayers Attended At Least Seven Meetings Together Relating To The Chicago Annenberg Challenge. (Chicago Annenberg Challenge, Board Of Directors Meeting, Minutes Of The Board, 3/15/95, 3/31/95, 4/13/95, 6/5/95, 9/30/97; National Annenberg Challenge Evaluation Meeting, List Of Participants, 5/24/95; Chicago Annenberg Challenge, Chicago School Reform Collaborative Meeting, Minutes, 10/23/96)

NOTE: Bill Ayers Was Asked To Help Obama Formulate The Chicago Annenberg Challenge By-Laws. (Chicago Annenberg Challenge Board Of Directors Minutes, 3/15/95)
In 1997, Obama Praised Ayers' Book On The Juvenile Justice System. "The two men were involved in efforts to reform the city's education system. They appeared together on academic panels, including one organized by Michelle Obama to discuss the juvenile justice system, an area of mutual concern. Mr. Ayers's book on the subject won a rave review in The Chicago Tribune by Mr. Obama, who called it 'a searing and timely account.'" (Jo Becker and Christopher Drew, "Pragmatic Politics, Forged On The South Side," The New York Times, 5/11/08)

Obama On William Ayers' "A Kind And Just Parent: The Children Of Juvenile Court": "A searing and timely account of the juvenile court system, and the courageous individuals who rescue hope from despair." (Chicago Tribune, 12/21/97)
"[Obama And Ayers] Have Also Appeared Jointly On Two Academic Panels, One In 1997 And Another In 2001." (Russell Berman, "Obama's Ties To Left Come Under Scrutiny," The New York Sun, 2/19/08)

From 1999 To 2002, Obama Served With Ayers On The Board Of Directors For Woods Fund Of Chicago." [Ayers] served with [Obama] from 1999 to 2002 on the board of the Woods Fund, an anti-poverty group." (Timothy J. Burger, "Obama's Chicago Ties Might Fuel 'Republican Attack Machine'," Bloomberg, 2/15/08)

During The Time Obama And Ayers Served Together On The Woods Fund, Ayers Was Quoted Saying "I Don't Regret Setting Bombs ... I Feel We Didn't Do Enough." "'I don't regret setting bombs,' Bill Ayers said. 'I feel we didn't do enough.' Mr. Ayers, who spent the 1970's as a fugitive in the Weather Underground, was sitting in the kitchen of his big turn-of-the-19th-century stone house in the Hyde Park district of Chicago." (Dinitia Smith, "No Regrets For A Love Of Explosives," The New York Times, 9/11/01)
NOTE: Obama, Born August 14th, 1961, Was 40 Years Old When Ayers Was Quoted. (Obama For America Website, www.barackobama.com ( http://www.barackobama.com ), Accessed 10/6/08; Dinitia Smith, "No Regrets For A Love Of Explosives," The New York Times, 9/11/01)
While Obama And Ayers Were Serving On The Woods Fund Together, Ayers Posed Standing On An American Flag For An Article In Chicago Magazine Entitled "No Regrets." (Marcia Froelke Coburn, "No Regrets," Chicago Magazine, 8/01)
Obama And Ayers Are Neighbors In Chicago's Hyde Park Neighborhood. "Twenty-six years later, at a lunchtime meeting about school reform in a Chicago skyscraper, Barack Obama met Mr. Ayers, by then an education professor. Their paths have crossed sporadically since then, at a coffee Mr. Ayers hosted for Mr. Obama's first run for office, on the schools project and a charitable board, and in casual encounters as Hyde Park neighbors." (Scott Shane, "Obama And '60s Bomber: A Look Into Crossed Paths," The New York Times, 10/4/08)

Obama Spokesman Ben LaBolt Told The New York Times That Last Year Obama And Ayers "Bumped Into Each Other On The Street In Hyde Park." "[Obama spokesman Ben LaBolt] said they have not spoken by phone or exchanged e-mail messages since Mr. Obama began serving in the United States Senate in January 2005 and last met more than a year ago when they bumped into each other on the street in Hyde Park." (Scott Shane, "Obama And '60s Bomber: A Look Into Crossed Paths," The New York Times, 10/4/08)
Neighbors Have Said "It's Only Natural" That Obama Would Know Ayers, Who Often Opens His Home For Gatherings, As Obama And His Wife "Are A Part Of Our Neighborhood And Part Of Our Social Circle." "Since coming out of hiding in 1980, the couple have raised three boys in Chicago and become part of the fabric of their liberal South Side neighborhood. Neighbors said it's only natural that Obama would know Ayers and Dohrn, who often open their homes for gatherings filled with lively discussions about politics, arts and social issues. Obama and his wife 'are part of our neighborhood and part of our social circle,' said Elizabeth Chandler, a neighbor of Ayers'." (Trevor Jensen, Robert Mitchum and Mary Owen, "Bill Ayers' Turbulent Past Contrasts With Quiet Academ ic Life," Chicago Tribune, 4/17/08)
Ayers' Organization, The Weather Underground, Was A "Violent Left-Wing Activist Group":

"William Ayers ... [Was] A Founding Member Of The Group That Bombed The U.S. Capitol And The Pentagon During The 1970s." (Russell Berman, "Obama's Ties To Left Come Under Scrutiny," The New York Sun, 2/19/08)

Ayers' Group, The Weather Underground, Is A "Violent Left-Wing Activist Group." "Senator Obama's ties to a former leader of the violent left-wing activist group the Weather Underground are drawing new scrutiny as he battles Senator Clinton for the Democratic presidential nomination." (Russell Berman, "Obama's Ties To Left Come Under Scrutiny," The New York Sun, 2/19/08)
The Weather Underground Produced A Manual Which Begins, "We Are A Guerrilla Organization. We Are Communist Women And Men, Underground In The United States For More Than Four Years." "The coalition was said to be a violence-prone faction inspired by the Weather Underground's ''Prairie Fire,'' a guerrilla warfare manual published in 1974. The manual begins, 'We are a guerrilla organization. We are Communist women and men, underground in the United States for more than four years.'" (Paul L. Montgomery, "2 Women In Brink's Case Identified With Weathermen From Start In '69," The New York Times, 10/ 22/81)

Wow, it's amazing that some of you say Palin doesn't have the experience to run for VP.  yet, Obama is running for President and he has far less experience than she does.

 It's sad when people, and particularly women, fall into the trap of pitting Sarah's experience against Barack's.  They are running in two different positions, in case this has gone unnoticed.  I guess its a comfort thing, better to pit the man against the woman rather than against another man.

 Remember folks, Obama is running against McCain.  Keep it in perspective, if you have the knowledge required to do this.  And please educate yourselves on who has what experience.  So you can sound at least semi-intelligent on the topic.

I'm genuinely curious as to how you think things like our gov't operations and the war should be paid for. And if you would cease paying taxes were it to be optional. 

You will not hear me argue that our legislative system and/or our system of tax payment is flawless. Indeed, I think it's wildly broken and I fully support reform. 

Or perhaps you are one of those folks who thinks that the gov't should be put out of business, that it is being used for the wrong thing entirely. I could see some sense in that argument, given the current state of affairs. 

But we aren't living in a completely self sufficent society. We don't build our own roads and schools and military, those things are funded out of US taxpayer dollars. And while I am not proud of all the things our money pays for, every time I visit a National Park or use an interstate highway or see firemen doing their job, I think, hey, I helped pay for that. And I do feel some pride in it. 

Nerd's Eye View ( http://www.nerdseyeview.com )

"as people close to her"  

Who? What people would that be?  

"Palin's complete dealings with the group isn't entirely clear" 

Isn't entirely clear, ... um, duh?

"Sarah Palin probably attended"  

Probably? Now that sounds real factual. LOL

"actively involved"  

One taped speech is hardly proof that she was "actively involved". 

As you can see, the Daily Kos is not exactly the best source for your journalistic information.

Good try though. 

(I'm reposting this comment.  I don't see it showing up as my reply) 

Character, LeeAnn?  You want to address character?  Please.  This isn't even a word that should be invoked given the type of slander campaign that the Republicans are running.  And they are being criticized publicly for it!  Have you read the recent newspapers? (which by the way, Palin certainly hasn't) The Repub campain is nauseating. 

Obama's associations?  Once again, please?  How about we stick to the issues instead of invoking some form of fear-mongering, oh-no-the-terrorists-are-going-to-be-on-our-doorsteps, if we elect Obama discussion?  Oh no -- he has a strange name and he has gone to a church where there was a radical minister (who was shamelessly seeking his 15 minutes of fame at all costs) and he was a community organizer with a man who had radical viewpoints (and who in America hasn't known someone in a workplace, university, etc., with radical viewpoints).  I went to  university and had engineering courses and study groups with a "freedom fighter" from Lebanon.   We live in a diverse world (something that you would never be able to tell from the RNC) with all different people with differing opinions and associations from all walks of life!  It's all part of the melting pot that we call the USA.   

McCain and Palin are NOT mavericks as they so often ridiculously call themselves, and neither of them possess character.  She ran in Alaska in full support of the "bridge to nowhere" and then changed her stance.   I just LOVE the commercials where they say "she took on the bridge to nowhere" and "McCain took on Washington Republicans" when McCain voted with Bush 91% of the time. 91%!!!   Lies, lies, lies.  All of it.  I could go on and on and on.  But I won't.  This is enough to make my point.   So, McCain and Palin -- there is no character here, LeeAnn.  And I don't need to defend Obama.  His record (when you strip away the slander) speaks for itself. 

As as far as small business being taxed, they would have to have NET income of more than $250.000 to be taxed at a higher rate.  Gross receipts minus all writeoffs!  We are not talking about GROSS income.  There is a HUGE difference!!

As far as patriotism goes, it comes in all colors (even in blue).  A patriot is someone that wants better for this country and isn't willing to sit back and be spoon-fed by the status quo.   

Wendy

I agree this would be a dull world without diversity.  We are all entitled to our opinions.  I can say that Gov Palin has energized the democratic base as well as the republican base.  

I do agree with the vilification point.  She has been treated to some serious stuff.  Although I would say a lot of it is coming from her own campaign. You have a great day though.  Stick around I do like having a differing point of veiw as it helps you see things in a way you would not if everyone agrees with you, if you have an open mind. :)

Michelle

I blog at http://www.mommycan.blogspot.com/

Let's be clear and accurate here ... Biden wasn't talking about ALL Americans 'being patriotic by paying more taxes'.  Joe Biden was talking about wealthier Americans should be 'patriotic' by paying more taxes. 

So, what about all of the people in this country that don't pay taxes at all ... are these people less patriotic for not paying anything?  Sounds stupid huh?  Of course it does, just like Biden's comment sounded stupid.

How about this idea ... for all you liberals that believe it's 'patriotic' to pay more taxes, then by all means you are free to so.  Yes, my liberal friends, you can voluntarily send in more money each year.  Remember, it's the 'patriotic' thing to do.  If Biden believed it, he would gladly overpay his tax bill. He has never done it - not once. Nor am I aware of any other prominent politician - Republican or Democrat - voluntarily overpaying their taxes because they believe the government better knows how to spend their money.

The only reason why people pay income tax each year is because they are forced to do so; Otherwise they would face fail time.

Palin scary? Well, this is what I find scary. Why are so many people willing to give Obama a pass on his connections to far left extremist? If the relationship with William Ayers was only a casual relationship, like he claims, then how did he end up in the guy's living room for a party in his honor? The answer is simple; Obama did more than bump into the guy on occasion at a board meeting. And the fact that almost half the voters in this country don't find this alarming is very, very scary to me.

My question for all the Obama supporters: How would you feel if news came out that Sarah Palin was linked to someone like Timothy McVeigh? Let's suppose McVeigh gave a party for Sarah Palin in his living room to launch her political career. Obama supporters and the MSM would go nuts over this and you would be correct to do so.

Instead of digging deeper into Obama's connections with Ayers and other far left radicals, the Democratic left would rather deny the facts, scream smear job, and throw ad hominem attacks at Palin.

At one time the Associated Press was a respected news-gathering agency. But some years ago, the AP began to abandon that mission in order to transform itself into a liberal advocacy group. Yesterday, writer Douglass Daniel tried to accuse Sarah Palin of racism for mentioning Obama's association with terrorist Bill Ayers. With this kind of ridiculous "analysis" it sounds like the AP's transformation to the left is almost complete.

Let's count how many times the liberals have cried "Raaaacism" so far?
1. When the McCain camp ran an ad that had a white woman in it, it was denounced as racist.
2. When it ran an ad that had an AA man (Franklin Raines) in it, it was denounced as racist.
3. Now the McCain camp links Obama to a white man, a former terrorist, and still anti-American, Bill Ayers and that's racist too.

Hmm, I think we've exhausted just about all the possibilities. Although, with 4 weeks left, I'm sure the liberals will prove me wrong. The only non-racist thing McCain can do, apparently, is concede the election.

http://www.blogher.com/little-bunny-foo-foo

Dear Michelle 

No doubt we all see through different eyes. Mine obviously see a different Sarah Palin than yours do. It would be a very dull world indeed with no diversity, don't you agree :-)

No doubt you favor the Obama/Biden ticket whilst I favor McCain/Palin. However, out of respect for your choice, I choose to refrain from personal attacks.

I personally think Gov.Palin did very well, considering the villification she's been subjected to. I also think Sen.Biden did well - came across as very likeable :-)

Best Wishes, Wendy

No but I can tell you that even with this experience SHE is not and I will say again NOT qualified.  There are high schools with more people than Wasilla and cities with more people than Alaska. 

Come on! There are PLENTY of qualified republican women.  This one is just not one of them.

Michelle

I blog at http://www.mommycan.blogspot.com/

Character, LeeAnn?  You want to address character?  Please.  This isn't even a word that should be invoked given the type of slander campaign that the Republicans are running.  And they are being criticized publicly for it!  Have you read the recent newspapers? (which by the way, Palin certainly hasn't) The Repub campain is nauseating. 

Obama's associations?  Once again, please?  How about we stick to the issues instead of invoking some form of fear-mongering, oh-no-the-terrorists-are-going-to-be-on-our-doorsteps, if we elect Obama discussion?  Oh no -- he has a strange name and he has gone to a church where there was a radical minister (who was shamelessly seeking his 15 minutes of fame at all costs) and he was a community organizer with a man who had radical viewpoints (and who in America hasn't known someone in a workplace, university, etc., with radical viewpoints).  I went to  university and had engineering courses and study groups with a "freedom fighter" from Lebanon.   We live in a diverse world (something that you would never be able to tell from the RNC) with all different people with differing opinions and associations from all walks of life!  It's all part of the melting pot that we call the USA.   

McCain and Palin are NOT mavericks as they so often ridiculously call themselves, and neither of them possess character.  She ran in Alaska in full support of the "bridge to nowhere" and then changed her stance.   I just LOVE the commercials where they say "she took on the bridge to nowhere" and "McCain took on Washington Republicans" when McCain voted with Bush 91% of the time. 91%!!!   Lies, lies, lies.  All of it.  I could go on and on and on.  But I won't.  This is enough to make my point.   So, McCain and Palin -- there is no character here, LeeAnn.  And I don't need to defend Obama.  His record (when you strip away the slander) speaks for itself. 

As as far as small business being taxed, they would have to have NET income of more than $250.000 to be taxed at a higher rate.  Gross receipts minus all writeoffs!  We are not talking about GROSS income.  There is a HUGE difference!!

As far as patriotism goes, it comes in all colors (even in blue).  A patriot is someone that wants better for this country and isn't willing to sit back and be spoon-fed by the status quo.   

I wrote my comment earlier before reading this comment.

Thanks for heads up. Unfortunate that this is a game for folks.  That the Republicans would consort with an organization such as this, because they have a lousy ticket this year. 

Just curious if you've seen some of the line item stuff in the bail out bill. There are odd little things like "repealing the excise tax on toy wooden arrows" and "tax relief for race tracks." This is relevant to the bill how, exactly? 

This is the kind of thing that needs to be stopped. This is where I'd say the gov't is unpatriotic. For real, they're going to make us pay for a bailout with THAT kind of stuff in there? Really?

I'm a small business owner too. FYI. Biggest woe? Health insurance. I don't get near 250k in revenues, I wish. Would I be willing to pay additional taxes if it fixed my health insurance issues? Oh. My. Yes.  Would I rather that the legislature write laws that don't include nonsense that costs me money? Oh. My. Yes. Do I trust that another four years of Republican gov't will do that for me? Oh. My. No.

Again, I ALSO blame a weak Congress for this kind of crap. I'm not just for an Executive Branch house cleaning, I'd like to see a Congressional sweep too. 

Nerd's Eye View ( http://www.nerdseyeview.com )

I'm not sure why some people are so dismissive of Governor Palin.  She is obviously doing something right or her approval rate would not be so high in her state.  Alaska is an important state too.  I really fail to see how people can say she is not qualified or has a thin resume.  At least she has been doing her job for longer than Senator Obama who only spent around 143 days in the Senate since being elected as the Junior Senator from Illinois.

However, the main thing I like about her is that she comes across as a real person to me.  I do believe she is the kind of person that perhaps we need to shake up Washington. 

Isn't anyone else tired of politics as usual?  I know I am.  I want my representatives to represent WE THE PEOPLE and not their own interests.  Isn't it interesting that we the average citizens have to struggle to figure out whether we are going to fill up our gas tanks or buy groceries, that we have to choose between filling much needed prescriptions or paying a bill? 

We need to do something about our dependence on foreign oil.  Why has the Democratic Party been so adament about not drilling when we so desperately need to be doing something to help get us away from this.  It could be a help to us if we would begin some drilling and at the same time work on alternative fuels as well as more thoroughly investigate solar and wind energy as well as nuclear and clean coal.  Senator McCain and Governor Palin are the only ones who are talking about doing ALL OF THE ABOVE.

I think we need to listen to what they have to say.

Governor Palin makes a lot of sense to me. 

LeeAnn

I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides; I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you and I am in that place in me, there is onl

A debate by definition requires the understanding of the topics at hand and the willingness to argue them and rebutt. I don't think that reading index cards written by someone else consitutes an adequate performance in a debate, however many winks you get in while you struggle to find your place in your notes.

Agree, Erin, that Palin should have answered some questions instead of
using the forum as a chance to deliver several short stump speeches. So
many of her one-liners fell flat ("white flag of surrender") because
they were in response to...nothing. Nonsensical.

If this is the best leadership the GOP thinks that Americans deserve, they're disdainful of us. If this is the best leadership they think they can find, well then they're irrelevant.

Mom-101 ( http://mom-101.blogspot.com )

and our new poster Jo Ann Davidson.

I thought Palin would have done much better had she actually answered some questions. Saying 'I'm not going to answer that' was, frankly, ridiculous in what was supposed to be a question and answer forum.

Unless of course, you all want to talk about energy...

Since BlogHer does seem to be gaining some new readers, perhaps they will enjoy my take on why I believe some women do not support Palin.

http://queenofspainblog.com

As for last night's comments from Palin that were a veiled reference to Ayers, I found them a desperate attempt by a sinking ship. Not to mention racist, and evil.

Seems the associated press agreed. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/05/ap-palins... ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/05/ap-palins... )

But hey, despite several studies showing the media has been consistently harder on Obama...must be that 'in the bag' thing you mentioned.

Politics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain ( http://queenofspainblog.com/ )

I am not a fan of Gov. Palin.  I do think she is likable, beautiful and energenic.  Ready to lead... H*LL NO! 

If the way she behaved on Thursday is all we expect from our girls then God help us all.  No woman on this board love her or not can honestly tell me that they would tell their daughter it is OK to behave this way in a serious situation.  I do say things like gonna, ain't, betcha and the like but not in serious situations.  I never speak that way in an interveiw, on TV, or in any formal speaking situation.  I am a soccer, football, hockey and dance mom.  I run a small business and have a few degrees but there is no way I am prepared to be vice president, neither is she.  I will not let my daughter, neices r any of the girls in my life believe the bar should be this low for them.

Michelle

I blog at http://www.mommycan.blogspot.com/

I started to write another comment when I realized that you and other "Gosh, that Palin is great!" commenters only signed up in order to comment in this thread. You're most likely paid, or were asked to comment here by the Republican party campaign. You certainly don't read Blogher, to not have responded previously.

This is what the Republican party has to do now, because it knows it has the worst candidate in recent history running for President. It knows that if we all had a better chance to know Palin, underneath the winks and the smile, she's as vapid as she came across in the Couric interviews, with little or no ethics. That she would most likely run this country into the ground if President. And that McCain cared for this country so little that he would appoint someone like her as his VP candidate. 

So you have to play these games, rather than have a honest dialog on issues, because then people will realize that it is the Republican way that led to our current financial crises, to 1 in five people not having health insurance, to a ten trillion dollar debt. Frankly, I think the only people who would vote Republican now are the pro-guns, anti-abortion crowd, who exist in a permanently oxymoronic state.

Wasting no more time responding to anyone who has been a member of Blogher less than a year.

 Well MJ2007, you can just "keep the change" that Obama is offering as far as I am concerned.  If you think it's okay to focus on those things you mentioned in your answer, more power to you... but I really think you're turning a blind eye to what really matters, character... and I mean, by definition, American Heritage Dictionary.. "

NOUN:

The combination of qualities or features that distinguishes one person, group, or thing from another. See Synonyms at disposition ( http://null/reference/dictionary/entry;_ylt=AulUFd... ).
A distinguishing feature or attribute, as of an individual, group, or category. See Synonyms at quality ( http://null/reference/dictionary/entry;_ylt=ApBlwy... ).
Genetics A structure, function, or attribute determined by a gene or group of genes.
Moral or ethical strength.
A description of a person's attributes, traits, or abilities.
A formal written statement as to competency and dependability, given by an employer to a former employee; a recommendation.
Public estimation of someone; reputation: personal attacks that damaged her character.
Status or role; capacity: in his character as the father." 

And I believe there is a clear difference in the moral character of Governor Palin, Senator John McCain and Senator Barack Obama, in that I believe Senator Obama has shown poor character by his associations.

As for your point, Nerd's Eye View:  How patriotic is it going to be when Obama taxes all the small business owners out of the ability of being able to hire others to work for them?  Please, I've run a small business; yep, we got absorbed, but it really does not that hard for the gross assets to be $250,000 or more.  Let's be patriotic but not at the expense of working men and women in this country who will lose their jobs by this kind of reckless taxing. 

LeeAnn

"Nameste"

Dear Michelle,

You compare Gov.Palin's qualifications to your own indicating that, like yourself, she is not well enough prepared to be vice president. I'm assuming, of course, that you have held the office of Governor? Or at least held the position of Lord Mayor?

...such as his assertion that paying higher taxes is “patriotic.” 

 I'd really like to see some more reasoned discussion of this issue. During WWII it was considered wildly patriotic to conserve resources and invest in war bonds to support the military action abroad. But in subsequent wars, it's been considered "unpatriotic" to discuss paying our troops in Iraq - or paying for anything, really, includng the 700billion dollar Wall Street bail out.  If you believe in the war and the adminstration that brought us there, why is it unpatriotic to discuss the price tag? 

It seems to me that funding the actions and services of our government is a highly patriotic act. If we support our gov't and want to keep it working, we have to spend  money to do so. In return, our officials should not take advantage of our lack of insight into the minutea of that funding.

I happen to agree with McCain's assessmeent of how wasteful our gov't has been over the last X number of years (go back as far as you like, I won't place blame strictly on the Bush administration, previous admin's have been as guilty of pandering to business and lobbying.) I don't, however, think that McCain, given his alignment with Bush policies, inspires my confidence in stopping the exploitation of the American tax payer's good nature. 

I DO think paying taxes is patriotic, though. While tax reform is clearly needed, contribuiting to the running of our grand nation is a patriotic act.

Nerd's Eye View ( http://www.nerdseyeview.com )

Sarah Palin did not "nail" the debate.  She came off as nervous, cutesy, and ill-informed about the issues.  Just  because she didn't completely freeze while answering the questions as in the Katie Couric interviews (which is definitely what was expected to happen and begs the question of why she was nominated in the first place), she can't be awarded a victory here.

Personally, I am insulted by her nomination due to her lack of experience, the misrepresentation of her record (her "bridge to nowhere" lies and her stance that birth control should be considered abortion), and her unprofessional conduct in interviews, etc.  Winking at the camera?  Come on! Ridiculous and trite. Why not kiss a few babies while she was at it?  It's just more of the same political garbage.  

She is being joked about worldwide.  Is this really the "first woman" that we (as women) want to put into power? Her nomination screams of "token woman" and is nothing more than a desperate attempt by the GOP to grab the votes that would have / could have gone to Hillary Clinton.  As a woman that has voted Republican in the past,  I will vote for true change -- Obama/Biden.  And send a message to Washington that the "politics as usual" needs to change.      

 It's amazing.  You don't even live here (supposedly) and yet you have all the Obama camp's talking points down PAT.  When you are looking at a candidate who has no real political record to which you can go to and then judge for yourself what kind of a politician they are or what their votes indicate that they have supported in their past, you have to look at judgment.  It's not just one thing or one person, it's the combination.  Of course William Ayres was a terrorist with the weather man group when Senator Obama was 8 years old, but it is still showing poor judgment and when you put that together with his pastor at that church that preaches such radical and violent beliefs, that is one more link.  Then you have the connection with Tony Rezco and that again shows poor judgment.  Is that what WE AMERICANS are looking for as a President?

And, I have to say, today Obama's campaign brings out all that old crap about the Keating 5, which I know for a fact was thoroughly investigated.  The one thing I'm worried about and the thing that really distresses me is, unlike the way the mainstream press has treated Governor Palin, they are not asking and have not been asking those hard questions of Senator Obama.  Why not??  I heard somebody make a comment today on the "View".. sure, 4 out of 5 of them have one view.. balanced view for sure... and they said, "this was all covered in the primaries".. yes, it was brought up 1 time and dismissed because of that smooth answer.. "I was 8 years old when those bombings happened"...

I just want somebody to think.  I believe in putting the best needs of our country's security and it remaining a beacon of hope in the idealogy of democracy for the world, instead of the possibility of it being dragged down by association.

LeeAnn

"Nameste"