New Hampshire Primary-Open Thread Discussion

Someone I work with shared this with me... her 4 year old son accompanied her into the voting booth. She asked him who he liked in the election, and told her he liked McCain. He then told his mom she should not vote for a girl, no Hillary!

Ayeee. She gave me details of where this came from (guess) and it just shows how entrenched patriarchy is in opposition to women in high profile leadership positions.

There is something wrong when young men are worried about having to 'endure' living in an environment where a woman is top dog in this nation. For too long we have allowed this attitude to be passed through to new generations, an attitude such that men feel humiliation at someone holding a prestigious position - humiliation felt solely because of gender, of how we should not challenge and mess with men being perceived as societal leaders.

It would be interesting to do a sociological study of the peripheral results of Hillary (assuming she continues to do well) as she moves toward the nomination. Until now, the notion of a woman running for president was rather abstract - no votes were cast. Now... with votes cast, this is real, it CAN happen... and believe it or not, this creates a need for therapists who specialise in helping men reconcile this with their lifelong sense of entitlement.

nelle ( http://www.nelle2nelle.org/ )

they really did not want Hillary to win, eh?

CNN interviewed the woman who asked the question that drew the emotional response from Clinton. She said that she admired Hillary, and was touched by her answer, but she voted for Obama. Her reason was that she was moved to tears twice when she heard him speak at a rally. She expressed surprise that HRC's answer to her question has generated so much conversation, She also expressed surprise at Clinton's win.

Her response may prove to be telling. Hillary impressed her; Obama inspired her. CNN's report ( http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/08/democrat.re... ) on the results picked up a nuance in Clinton and Obama's post-primary remarks. Clinton thanked voters for the confidence they reposed in her, saying that in listening to them, "I found my own voice." Obama said, this isn't about me; it's about us:

"But the reason our campaign has always been different, the reason we began this improbable journey almost a year ago, is because it's not just about what I will do as president," he said "It is also about what you, the people who love this country, the citizens of the United States of America, can do to change it. That's what this election is all about.""

That's why I'm starting more and more to think of Obama's pitch as Presidency 2.0 -- less about one-way communication and direction; more about collaboration and community.

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor ( http://www.blogher.com/blog/kim-pearson )|Professor Kim ( http://professorkim.blogspot.com )|

"Women were the difference makers"-

Nelle YOU are the story tonight. Your vote. Your voice. And like so many it came down to the wire.

Women are indeed the difference makers.

Politics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain ( http://queenofspainblog.com/ )

Kudos to the Clinton campaign for pulling off the NH victory when everyone (pundits) predicted they were 'done.' As an Obama supporter, I'd say this...

* I heard someone tonight (Wes Clark, I think) talk about how exemplary Hillary's "record" is. I must be missing something. She was elected to the Senate in 2000...Obama was elected to the Senate in 2004. So she's running on 4 years more experience, right? Where does the "35 years of change" thing come in? Because if she's gonna count being married to an elected official...then surely he gets to start counting when he was elected the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review (in '90).

* Unprompted from me, my 73-year-old (white) mother said tonight she thought Hillary's tearful moment was staged and that the questioner was a plant. Just sharing that since pundits like to assume that older, white women are automatically for Hillary.

* I've always liked Bill Clinton in many respects (although I think his lack of action in Rwanda forever taints his legacy)...but that "fairy tale" video of him undid decades of goodwill for me. In that moment, he came across to me not as a well-loved (by many) former President, but as a desperate, entitled, arrogant white male who is a very sore loser.

* The "ganging up on Hillary" thing from Saturday night's debate is confusing to me. I watched that segment twice--on the WMUR live feed and again on the West Coast broadcast...didn't that whole thing start because Gibson gave Hillary the opportunity to 'vet' Obama? She started attacking some of his positions, so Barack defended them. Then Edwards jumped on her with the status quo stuff. So if she was attacked, it seemed like it was by Edwards. I didn't see it as the two of them as ganging up on her. Just my take...

I think it's an exciting race! Who wants the whole thing decided after votes from just two small (mostly white) states? I just hope that Hillary's so-called tearful moment didn't sway voters in NH...because if women are going to vote for a woman just because she cries, I think it does a disservice to women.

Alright, Clinton supporters...let's hear your side...

The Land of Moo ( http://marilynm.vox.com/ )

Co-Founder of Bloggers for Darfur ( http://bloggersfordarfur.blogspot.com )

And are you kidding me? That was the outburst? That was the melt-down? That was the tearful moment?

I get more teary watching some commercials.

People must be so used to thinking of Hillary as a robot that any show of emotion seems over the top.

I feel led astray by the media...what a shock.

Elisa Camahort
BlogHer
elisa@blogher.org

I wavered on who would get my vote for well over a year. On Saturday, I talked with one dear friend who I trust, is quite active in the community, who was also undecided, and felt this nation was more ready for a black *man* as president than a woman. Interesting observation, mirroring comments of Shirley Chisholm decades ago. Anyway, I sensed she was leaning Hillary.

And later, I asked Denise for her take. Denise doesn't often put her pol views out here, not like I do, shooting my mouth off quite frequently. Usually when she says something, it has much merit, a well considered pov.

So tonight, after fighting traffic to reach the polling station, I walked into the booth, stared at the ballot, stared at Barack's name, then Hillary's name. I thought about how his message resonates with me. I thought about how qualified they are, both. I thought about 215 years of history.

And voted for Hillary.

56% of Republican voters were men, according to an MSNBC exit poll; 57% of Democratic voters were women, giving Hillary a 13% margin. Women were the difference makers.

We've long talked on how vital our votes are. Single women were for Hillary by something like a 19% margin.

For the first time in history, at least as far as I can tell, a woman has one a US presidential primary.

nelle ( http://www.nelle2nelle.org/ )

by Chris Matthews were really annoying, playing on this 'emotional outburst' by Clinton over the weekend.

These comments will get worse.

nelle ( http://www.nelle2nelle.org/ )

I'm sure they will spin it with the "tears"...they already are.

Contributing Editor Catherine Morgan
also at CatherineBlogs.com ( http://www.catherineblogs.com/ ) and The Political Voices of Women ( http://politicsanew.com/ )

I am really anxious to hear the spin, pundits, etc after this one-last poll I saw BEFORE NH was Obama up by 10.

Amazing

Politics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain ( http://queenofspainblog.com/ )

Contributing Editor Catherine Morgan
also at CatherineBlogs.com ( http://www.catherineblogs.com/ ) and The Political Voices of Women ( http://politicsanew.com/ )

The quality of the discussion in the comments is blowing me away. I'd also encourage folks to read the amazingly smart discussion happening.

There is an AMAZING conversation going on at Maria's blog. I know that some of you have read it and responded. I hope more people give her post, and the subsequent comments, ( http://consumerpop.typepad.com/popconsumer/2008/01... ) careful consideration. I hope she doesn't mind if I excerpt:

"...I love, adore and respect my white sisters but I am disappointed in some of them. A few have said that the power of seeing the first woman in the White House has put Clinton over the top as their candidate. I always point out that they can only say that because they are not black women. That the face of racial equality is male and the face of gender equality is white is nothing new. But to see the promise of Hillary Clinton in the White House without even acknowledging the promise of Barack Obama in the White House is a matter of privilege...."

As Lynne D. Johnson said in her comment ( http://consumerpop.typepad.com/popconsumer/2008/01... ),
on Maria's blog, aspects of this conversation are very reminiscent of the split between the suffragists and the abolitionists after the Civil War.

As for me, I'm still undecided. I am impressed by the depth of Hillary's skills. Obama's Iowa speech moved me to tears and his victory did indeed stir an audacious hope. Even now, whether he wins in NH or comes in a close second, he will have achieved something historic.

But each candidate raises questions that I wish we could talk. Here are just a couple of mine:

1. Clinton says that she would not have voted to authorize the President to go to war against Iran if she had known then what she knows now about weapons of mass destruction. In September, she voted for the Lieberman-Kyl amendment ( http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_li... ) to the 2007 Defense Authorization Bill, which many analysts say helps move us closer to war with Iran. Does she still defend that vote in light of the NIE saying hat Iran does not have a nuclear weapons program? And why is it that Obama did not vote at all?

2. Why did Obama vote to reauthorize ( http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_li... ) the PATRIOT ACT?

3. Edwards talks eloquently about his advocacy for the poor, and his concern for the environment. I'd like someone to ask him about his record on environmental justice, poverty and labor rights during his time in the Senate ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edwards#Senate_c... ). North Carolina, a largely right-to-work state, is where the environmental justice movement was born. There is a horrific record on workplace safety. Knowing what he did on these issues while in the Senate would help me understand how he puts his principles in action as a political leader.

That's just for starters.

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor ( http://www.blogher.com/blog/kim-pearson )|Professor Kim ( http://professorkim.blogspot.com )|

nearly 60% of precincts in New Hampshire reporting and still no clear Democratic winner-Clinton and Obama remain within thousands-Clinton ahead at this hour. Amazing!

Politics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain ( http://queenofspainblog.com/ )

I've seen Paul on Wolf Blitzer's show almost every day over the last couple of weeks, usually talking about foreign policy. Why? And why, whether it's Blitzer, Leno. Charlie Gibson, or any other forum, hasn't he been asked to explain why quotes such as this ( http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/5/15/124912... ) were published under his byline:

"...Given the inefficiencies of what D.C. laughingly calls the "criminal justice system," I think we can safely assume that 95% of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal.

If similar in-depth studies were conducted in other major cities, who doubts that similar results would be produced? We are constantly told that it is evil to be afraid of black men, but it is hardly irrational. Black men commit murders, rapes, robberies, muggings, and burglaries all out of proportion to their numbers...."

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor ( http://www.blogher.com/blog/kim-pearson )|Professor Kim ( http://professorkim.blogspot.com )|

The media loves a winner.

My candidate--John Edwards--never gets coverage. (Wah!) Why weren't people talking about his post-Iowa Caucus speech? It was an amazing speech.

Stefania Pomponi Butler

I blog:
CityMama ( http://citymama.typepad.com )
Kimchi Mamas ( http://kimchimamas.typepad.com )
MOMocrats ( http://momocrats.typepad.com )

MSM projecting McCain in New Hampshire

Politics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain ( http://queenofspainblog.com/ )

here ( http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2008/01/hillary-... ). I wish she had done this before.

Watching MSNBC right now, I can see how much the media just loathes Hillary Clinton. It's as if Iowa gave them the chance to let loose all the hatred of the Clintons they have been holding in since 1999.

Echidne of the snakes ( http://echidneofthesnakes.blogspot.com/ ) writes brilliantly about Steinem's op-ed in which she flips Obama's and Clinton's credentials, especially here:

Note that the children are young. Lots of people would be up in arms about a mother leaving her young children without care. Fathers are still not expected to be in charge of that care.

Yes. But I think a lot of Obama's rise and Hillary's steep steep fall is down to her, her family, and everything she represents. And for that, I cannot blame gender, but too much Clinton, too much of the old.

Also check out Ann Althouse ( http://althouse.blogspot.com/2008/01/everybody-lov... ) on media love of Obama.

I keep hearing that he doesn't believe in evolution--is that fact or urban myth? (Asking since I read your blog post and it appears you've researched him.) Saw this article on the front page of Huffington Post today and wonder how you feel about his candidacy if, in fact, he wrote the newsletters mentioned...

http://tinyurl.com/3caypg

The Land of Moo ( http://marilynm.vox.com/ )

Co-Founder of Bloggers for Darfur ( http://bloggersfordarfur.blogspot.com )

...is that 35 years after I embraced feminism--in the days when Gloria was our shero--the only female candidate who's considered remotely viable is Hillary Clinton. Why is there not any conversation about THAT? If you've seen that dialogue, please direct me to it...

The Land of Moo ( http://marilynm.vox.com/ )

Co-Founder of Bloggers for Darfur ( http://bloggersfordarfur.blogspot.com )

I loved Gloria Steinem's op-ed today. She writes like the senior stateswoman she is, strengthening her relationship with her existing followers and building bridges to new ones.

But I lust after Surrender Dorothy ( http://surrenderdorothy.typepad.com/surrender_doro... )'s blog today. There and on BlogHer.com, she offers up the muthavoter version of Steinem's message:

Voting for Hillary for the Same Reason I Lost My Virginity ( http://www.blogher.com/voting-hillary-same-reason-... )

"This country needs to just go ahead and elect a woman already. It's time. We all know it's time, are itching to just GET IT OVER WITH, get a woman in office and put an end to the questions of whether or not her PMS is going to interfere with her foreign policy. Hey, I'm a woman, and I'm an emotional wreck, but I'm not the kind of woman who is going to run for public office. The kind of woman who runs for public office has big, brass balls of her own that she wears on a pearl strand around her neck. The kind of woman who runs for office stands next to her husband while he's talking about whether or not he had his dick sucked by an intern and then the next year runs for Senate. Folks, Hillary isn't going to break into tears over much. She's a female politician, and she's tough. Give her the job. Let's get this over with.

"I am going to vote for Hillary because this country needs practice accepting a female leader, and Hillary can handle being the first. She may not be the best candidate I can think of to be Leader of the Free World, but she's good enough to pave the path for better candidates of the female variety in the future. Allowing women to take a viable swing at our nation's highest office will bring twice as many candidates to the table in future elections.

"Our entire judicial system is set on precedent. Our Constitution, on which we base all of our laws, is one big precedent. It's the way we structure our beliefs in this country - we believe that if we've seen it happen once, it can happen again. But until we've seen it happen, we doubt. I've got an opportunity to vote to make it happen. Listen, if Hillary were a right-wing Republican, I wouldn't vote for her just because she's a woman. She's not. I do think she's a moderate Democrat. I'm way more liberal than Hillary, but she's got good positions on healthcare and education, and she's learned from her mistakes on Iraq. She's a good, Democrat woman, up against good, Democrat men. Apples to apples, I'm taking the pear."

Pow!

Me? Still undecided about our next president. But loving every minute of this.

Lisa Stone
BlogHer Co-founder ( http://www.blogher.com/member/lisa-stone )
Surfette ( http://surfette.typepad.com )

I have heard many interesting comments here in the Galveston, TX area when talking about the primaries & upcoming general election. Here are just a few...

I would have a hard time voting against John McCain.
If you want change, you can't vote for the candidate with the last name Clinton.
Huckabee scares me - God should not be included in campaign speak.
Can you spell Giuliani (without looking or guessing)?
Mitt Romney is creepy.
I love Ron Paul, I wish he could win.
Who is Kucinich and where is he from again?
Is Bill Richardson running for a cabinet appointment?
I hate the news and I can't wait for this to be over.
John Edwards is too pretty for my taste.
I really want to like Hillary.
McCain is too old to be president.
I can't vote for a Mormon president.
Why haven't we seen Jesse Jackson & Al Sharpton on CNN pushing Obama?

Good or bad, like them or not, these are just some of the sentences I have heard in recent conversations in my neighborhood and larger community when the elections are mentioned.

Me? I am leaning towards Obama but still holding back, waiting for more information on his healthcare strategy. Additionally, I love the amazing voter turnout. What a country!

Erin
ExpectingExecutive ( http://blogspot.expectingexecutive.com )

I don't have to be a Ron Paul voter to appreciate this write-up. All ya'll go read it:

Smacking of Reason and Rightness ( http://www.blogher.com/smacking-reason-and-rightne... )

Lisa Stone
BlogHer Co-founder ( http://www.blogher.com/member/lisa-stone )
Surfette ( http://surfette.typepad.com )

Wow, so interesting and very cool that Hillary came out on top for you.

When I did it, Kucinich came out overwhelmingly #1 for me but to my surprise Chris Dodd came out 2nd and Obama 3rd. It definitely prompted me to take a closer look at Dodd and I ended up disappointed that he wasn't more competitive.

Hillary actually came out on top!! I honestly thought Kucinich would :)

Although, truth be told the top 4 were neck and neck:

Hillary Clinton 24.0
John Edwards 23.0
Barack Obama 22.0
Dennis Kucinich 21.0

Thanks for the link Maria.
Elisa Camahort
BlogHer
elisa@blogher.org

Check out this link ( http://minnesota.publicradio.org/projects/ongoing/... ) to help you figure out the candidate your are closest to on the issues. I found it very enlightening.

PopConsumer ( http://consumerpop.typepad.com/popconsumer )

MinnesotaMom
www.minnesotamom.wordpress.com ( http://www.minnesotamom.wordpress.com )

On Obama/Clinton ( http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/08/opinion/08steine... ): "But what worries me is that he is seen as unifying by his race while she is seen as divisive by her sex.

What worries me is that she is accused of 'playing the gender card' when citing the old boys’ club, while he is seen as unifying by citing civil rights confrontations.

What worries me is that male Iowa voters were seen as gender-free when supporting their own, while female voters were seen as biased if they did and disloyal if they didn’t.

What worries me is that reporters ignore Mr. Obama’s dependence on the old — for instance, the frequent campaign comparisons to John F. Kennedy — while not challenging the slander that her progressive policies are part of the Washington status quo.

What worries me is that some women, perhaps especially younger ones, hope to deny or escape the sexual caste system; thus Iowa women over 50 and 60, who disproportionately supported Senator Clinton, proved once again that women are the one group that grows more radical with age. "

Politics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain ( http://queenofspainblog.com/ )

Finally Americans getting off their butts to vote! No idea what it means for whom, but just so excited to see big numbers at the polls. YES!

Politics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain ( http://queenofspainblog.com/ )

...via MSNBC:

http://tinyurl.com/yr62he

The Land of Moo ( http://marilynm.vox.com/ )

Co-Founder of Bloggers for Darfur ( http://bloggersfordarfur.blogspot.com )

...at least according to Drudge. Seems like that could indicate HUGE numbers for Obama. Then again...maybe it means Hillary's supporters are pulling out all the stops...

http://www.drudgereport.com/

The Land of Moo ( http://marilynm.vox.com/ )

Co-Founder of Bloggers for Darfur ( http://bloggersfordarfur.blogspot.com )