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My name is Laurie. I have always loved words, pictures, stories, and people. I read and write obsessively. Over the years I've kept paper journals, w...
 
 
 
 

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No Kids: What Am I Missing?

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Since Sassymonkey sent a link yesterday morning to a post called "Child-free movement: You say 'childfree,' I say 'childless'" by Kim Hays of the Orlando Sentinel Moms at Work blog, I've been trying to figure out why it bothered me to the point that I felt the need to call the author out on Twitter. (I am allergic to conflict and am therefore so not a Twitter caller-outer. I'm a Twitter converser, no rage included on a regular basis.)

First, of Hays's point, a recap:

She has unnamed, unspecified commenters on her blog who prefer to be called "childfree" and not "childless" who "corrected" her (quotes not mine) related to the use of these terms. And maybe, I don't know, she woke up thinking about that the other day (which must have been a slow parenting news day, I'm just saying) and also thought, wow, I'll throw a little bit of contextless background in here about people who are nasty in their childfreeness and make a list of the things they're missing out on that I - as a mother - am not. And then she wrote a mostly warm and fuzzy list with a side dish of excessive quotations, bold font, and snide asides.

Just so I know, when I have nieces and nephews, that is not the same as having my own children, she'd have me know, which totally ruins my plan to pass those kids off as my own. And also there goes their inheritance.

I am sounding nasty to my own ears and I don't like it, but I am so tired of this discussion that I know I can't abandon. And let me state for the record that I usually would not take the time to dicker around with a premise as unclear as I find Hays's to be in this piece. I think certain things are written with the fallout in mind, and those are the ones I try to avoid. But something about the tone here, about the baiting, about the divisiveness in an era where I hear a lot about how there's room for everyone, how there is no reason we all can't get along, really got to me. 

I am tired of people being drawn into strange camps based on parenting status. Parenting choices and circumstances are among the most personal in our lives, at the same time the most obvious and the most difficult to explain. They're inextricable from our biology and our chemistry and our cultural identity, a point I'll argue all day long, because as a single, childless woman in this country I know things. Scary things. Upsetting things.

Walk with me to my office a few years ago, when the married with children colleague who knew my stance full well on all of this leaned in my doorway next to a pile of work she'd dumped on me and said, "Oh, I don't know what I'd do if I didn't have people to go home to who gave my life meaning." True story. Continue on to Austin this March where a dad blogger told me in a terribly mean way that my opinion didn't count, that I would always be a child until I'd had children, a conclusion I'm guessing he was basing on his cohort that includes, exaggeratedly both real and fictional, John Edwards, the late Michael Jackson, Homer Simpson AND Peter Griffin, Tommy Lee (who I hesitate to call out because, well, we have a history, but still) and that guy I knew in grad school whose child never had decent shoes but he always had a dime bag.

And talk about evenings for which the old "bottle of red in a brown paper bag" image was invented. I mean, seriously. People say some really effective things when they're screwing with you sometimes.

So, whereas I am tired of having to state the following, I'm afraid people who can relate don't feel able to often enough because it's not fun to admit:

I will be 40 years old in a little more than a year. The only thing left that I haven't done that I wish to do in my life - the only huge thing, because I have a jillion other things on my to-do list, some of which even give me the will to get out of bed in the morning - is to be a parent. Sometimes this makes me sad. The end.

I call myself accidentally childless, when

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Byrd 5 pts

Had a surprise pregnancy at the height of my career and 16 years of marriage.  When I think of moms, I think of my mother who was young, energetic, loved to cook and be creative.  I was 38 and if I had ever changed a diaper, it was so traumatic that it escapes my memory.  Motherhood has been a major life change. 

At first I took it for granted and then encountered all these women who have not been able to conceive. I share my son's life with my friends who are unmarried, unable to conceive or prefer to send a child home at the end of the day.  They always help me with him so we can still do things together. 

He was born after we had lost a generation of family members.  He brought everyone together and made the family happy.I also think about how important my siblings and I were to my father's sisters who never had kids of their own.  They were also important to us.  They were wonderful surrogate parents http://80salumna.wordpress.com/2009/02/11/farewell...

I think it is a personal choice.  I often miss those days of being free and able to do whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted.  Board memberships focused on improving the lives of strangers have been replaced with volunteering at his school and play dates.  We can't imagine life without our son.  I started blogging as a result of life changes that were triggered by turnign 40 and motherhood.  I would love to hear what you think.

http://80salumna.wordpress.com

Michelle McKinley 5 pts

At the time I was without children.  Clearly she wanted me to have babies.  Yes her comment was rediculous.  But that's my mom.

(Now that I do have children, I can tell you that I am WAY more weird now.)

Women need to quit judging and start embracing.  Whatever is your situation in life, find the joy.

http://superfabuloushousewife.blogspot.com/

Nordette Adams 6 pts

Except to say excellent post, Laurie. This woman's thinking reminds me of the article Zandria addressed that declared "women without children lack an essential humanity ( http://www.blogher.com/childless-women-do-not-lack... )."  I didn't grasp the motivation behind that article nor do I get this woman's post except that some people can't feel good about their own life choices unless they find fault with other people's choices. What the hell is wrong with her?

I'm sure others have said that if she is the example of motherhood magically giving a woman empathy, compassion or wisdom, then humanity is doomed to callousness, not to mention idiocy. I'm not sure how she let the words escape her head to land in a post. And to keep defending her own nonsense is beyond appalling. You know, maybe she's just one more person clamoring for attention, a way to make a name for herself by insulting a specific group of people. There's a name for it, but saying it might be in violation of BlogHer community guidelines. And no, the word does not rhyme with witch; however, it is usually preceded by the word "media" and rhymes with boor.

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B_houseoverflowing 5 pts

I want to comment - but my first thought in Holy Cow when did this become a war?  I never thought about child-less - child-free- breeder. Is whther you have a child or not or want one or not the last bastion of acceptable bigotry?

I have grown children. I have a niece that would give her left --uh---arm to get pregnant. I have a friend who has no desire for children. Should I stop takling to them because we are in different camps.  Should we all be marked in some way so it is obvious which camp we belong to???

I enjoy my friends - well because they are my friends.  I didn't check their reproductive capability or desire anymore than I would check their sexual preference or bank balance before I would think about allowing them into my "friend" circle.

I do not believe that anyone should feel high and mighty over whether children are or are not part of the fabric of their lives.  We all have made choices (or have had choices thrust upon us) that make each of us weave a different tapestry that illustrates our past paths and perhaps our destiny.  We should enjoy the complexity of colors and textures of each others lives without being judgemental of the pattern.

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lauriewrites 5 pts

I do hope there is some greater understanding now - at least there seems to be on this site. Thanks for dropping by and for the Twitter shoutout. :)

Laurie

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lauriewrites 5 pts

Life rarely gives us what we expect and this is a tough one. I wonder what my father would say - we get along much better now that I'm an adult - we're probably roughly the same age emotionally. ;)

Nobody ever said the big things would be easy. They just never said HOW not-easy they'd be. And to your last point? I think that's what's enabling you to do that too. A multi-faceted life and a world that doesn't revolve around them entirely are not bad thing for children, quite the opposite from what I've seen. Best of luck to all of you.

Laurie
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lauriewrites 5 pts

Meanwhile, I get comments from some friends/relatives on how crazy my
life is, and how I get to do so many "cool" things, but it feels
frowned upon in some respects. I haven't grown up yet.  I feel like
it's this huge assumption that my life isn't "Full" without kids.

Totally. I've accomplished a good bit academically and professionally but the births in our extended family are the serious news. This is not my parents or my sister or a select few others but overall you really do need to produce a child or at the very least a spouse to "graduate to grown up". I don't even think people are conscious of it. And it's worse when you're already putting the pressure on yourself. Just this past year I've let most of that baggage go and surprise surprise, the vibe is much better. I still get a ton of unsolicited advice about adoption and egg-freezing and what have you, but I'm better able to process (i.e. ignore) it now. Thanks for the comment.

Laurie

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lauriewrites 5 pts

Parenting can bring pain and struggle as it can bring joy, and so can not doing it. I hope you read Catherine's comment way at the beginning wherein she speaks to this. We've had a bunch of different perspectives here. I loved this that you wrote:

Which means I am not going to extoll the joys and virtues of a
child-free life unless someone comes along trying to tell me how empty
and meaningless my life is for not having children and how many
wonderful things I will never know or understand.  I completely agree
that it is a very personal aspect of a person's life and I don't think
anyone should be subjected to tirades from people on either side of the
issue.

I would like not to have write things like this post at all but this is not the first time I've heard such a contention regarding all the things I'm missing and I thought it was time to call the whole point-counterpoint thing into question here.

Laurie
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lauriewrites 5 pts

I completely agree with you. And I don't want your "choice" point to get lost in this thread - it's come up a few times and it's very true. If we speak to it we should mean it, right?

Laurie

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lauriewrites 5 pts

That I consider the children of my friends to be my friends too, by association. When I come over or we hang out somewhere else and they're there it's their time too, to a reasonable extent. My parents took me just about everywhere except to social things and evening events that weren't right for kids and their best friends were very important in mine and my sister's lives. I honestly believe that children benefit from being around a variety of adults who care about them, family and friends, too. And you likely know that to some extent because of the awesome career you've chosen (I'm a counselor, wish I had the skill to be an art or music therapist.)

Again, this is my particular approach and it's made my life better in a way that I've found it really needs to be made better.

Laurie

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lauriewrites 5 pts

I don't hate No Kidding. I don't hate much. My only exposure to it has been in my area and the person I knew who was involved in it and his pals from the group were very mean-spirited about children.

That's great that your group isn't like that and that it fills a need for you. I am not personally judging, thinking less of or certainly hating (again, that's way strong based on what I said) you for doing what works for you. Again, I am not childfree because that is what I set out to be. I have a different life path and decision-making process. It should be noted that I give no small amount of credit to people who make the decision mindfully as I know it has its own set of pain and stress for many.

It's not a group I'd be interested in for a variety of reasons, the most prominent of which are that I don't really go for joining social groups at all and beyond that I have no interest in specifically seeking out friends who don't have children. It just would not be a good fit for me. I already have enough of them, I guess, and mom and dad friends who actually do have interests beyond their children that include conversing with me and including me in their lives and themselves in mine. That's just how it worked out for me, and I'm sorry that you had that experience with your girlfriends. I think being a new mom is a huge challenge and it does require focus and time and there has been some ebb and flow in my relationships when my girls have had babies. But maybe because I am a person with a rather large crew of friends at different levels of closeness I never felt abandoned. I know my parent people can't always go out late, but sometimes my mom friends want to, and some of them can hang longer than I can, honestly. Most - actually I think all? I'm ticking them off in my head - of my mom friends would be alarmed if our conversation revolved around child vomit and Gymboree. My best friends who are moms talk to me more about sports, politics, music, photography and a healthy amount of smack, but I always ask about their kids too. I respect their experience and they respect mine or they wouldn't be my friends. There are people without children that I avoid because they're a drag for whatever reason and parents you'd have to pry out of my life because they are so essential to it. And also vice versa. I take my chances.

I did not mean to offend you, certainly and apologies if you were disappointed, but honestly I had never heard the good side of the group. Thanks for sharing your take on it. I am psyched that it was there for you when you needed it because really when it comes down to it we all desperately need friends we can have fun with and with whom we can share our lives.

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leeannthill 5 pts

Indeed there is, and it really underscores what's already been said about the need for women to curtail berating each other for choosing - or happening into - life circumstances.

Lee Ann Thill

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A Lifetime of Type 1 Diabetes: War, Peace and My Mission to Help & Inspire Others

lauriewrites 5 pts

It's been so cool to watch you walk the path from newly married to now expecting a baby and the whole time you've been an important voice in the health/diabetes community and also the cool person community.

I cannot wait to meet him, and to share him. It's an honor that you would say that, and I think it was when I got to this comment that I started to cry at the sheer feeling inherent in the response to this post.

Blogging has been the gift of my life not just because it's given me back some kind of voice but also because it's connected me to so many people of all kinds who are quite crucial friends online and off, and I think that's why I'm so crazy about not delineating understanding or relevance based on parenting status.(And anyone who says moms of any sort can't relate will be directed right to this thread for a long time.)

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lauriewrites 5 pts

Grace did a good thing in creating it. Thanks for linking to your words there.

Laurie

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Mom101 5 pts

My intent with that link wasn't to devolve the discussion into something worse - in fact I hadn't read the comments on that post; had just remembered the post itself (my bad!), so apologies if it brought something even more hurtful to the thread. I was just surprised by the (probably benign) comment "I have never once heard any "child free" person bad mouthing a woman's choice to be
a mother" and I wanted to point out that there's some pretty awful stuff on both sides. 

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leeannthill 5 pts

Even though I would never engage in discussion like she quoted because it is so mean-spirited and hateful, I didn't feel like I could even try to nicely represent the CF community without being attacked.  That's obviously just my perception, and maybe that's not how it would actually unfold, but I think it's worth pointing out that she didn't even seem to leave room for a two-sided discussion.  I think she could have pointed out how their posts were wrong without being so mean.  Maybe I need to go back and read it, but my first response was feeling hurt more by that than by Ms. Hays' post which I have since read.

As was said above, two wrongs don't make a right.

Lee Ann Thill

The Butter Compartment ( http://www.thebuttercompartment.com )
A Lifetime of Type 1 Diabetes: War, Peace and My Mission to Help & Inspire Others

lauriewrites 5 pts

No one should have to hear those whispers, and I honestly think most of the time we're happy with our own choices the most until we hear them compared to others'

It is crucial to honor ourselves and more difficult if we are devalued externally. Necessary in those cases to ignore, but sometims that's easier said than done too.

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lauriewrites 5 pts

My head would explode. So I haven't even allowed that front and center. :)

Laurie

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lauriewrites 5 pts

I have problems with her premise and the way she pigeonholes people without children (and, as Catherine pointed out above, mothers too) but I wouldn't in any way compare it to the Imperfect Parent thread. My opinion, of course.

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lauriewrites 5 pts

And a colleague who is a mother does. Ostensibly I can be broke and/or homeless because I don't have any dependents.

Also, I love this:

My suggestion? Avoid people who give you unsolicited, unhelpful

advice about your life choices. It is no one's business but your own

and it shows real immaturity on their part.

So true. Avoid avoid avoid!

Laurie

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lauriewrites 5 pts

I hadn't really thought about it, but I can see it. I know there's a lot of comparing within parenting communities too and I can't imagine an experience that can play out in so many different ways depending on an endless list of factors.

It is easy to idealize anything in life, from tiny kisses on the nose for moms to my alleged footloose lifestyle. But those are stereotypes like anything else and none of us are that easily compartmentalized. I'm glad to hear from you (and I know things change a lot when the kids are teenagers like yours are!)

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lauriewrites 5 pts

Let me start by saying that I hear you, really, I do and the years when children are young do involve a ton of work and sacrifice and effort. I can totally understand why you might wish for more freedom or to have "stayed the aunt."

I don't know about your friend, but I work really hard as a college counselor and professor. I put a lot into my job and my freelance work as a writer and more recently a photographer. I am also quite involved with extended family and friends, so I am not without obligations. I am not the best money manager or house keeper so I feel a great deal of stress just from the logistical management of life, plus a job, plus trying to stay reasonably healthy. Even though it's just me, you can't ignore that stuff, and it's genuinely a solo gig. (My hat is off to single moms who do all this and more for themselves when they can plus at least one other person.)

I think our lifestyles can vary widely whether we have children or not. Some moms have more freedom - to travel, to see friends, etc - depending on how much money they have, access to childcare, spousal/family support, etc. Some people without children have very little disposable income/access to travel/solid social networks, etc.. I've been traveling a lot the past couple of years, but knowing that I'm responsible for my own housing and future care (I think a LOT about my later years as I began my career in senior services. Scary.) has me in a place where I know I have to get serious about saving and the trips to wherever (most of them for family visits and conferences, honestly) will need to be curtailed. Then again I'm closer to 40 so the road starts to seem a little less appealing.

Laurie

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lauriewrites 5 pts

I grow so weary of attempts by others to validate their experience,
their feelings, their choices, their lives by diminishing mine.

"You'll never get it, " "You can't," "You couldn't possibly understand," blahblahblah

I'm tired of it too. At least we're in really good company. :)

Laurie

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lauriewrites 5 pts

But I think sometimes it has to be done. I read a lot of stuff that I really ought to respond to more directly, both positively and negatively. Sometimes it's time constraints sometimes it's not having the nerve. In this case I felt it was important enough to deal with that I did it. Accountability is important.

Laurie

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lauriewrites 5 pts

Having brilliant, badass mom/blogger friends and neighbors like you has made it a lot easier to find and share my voice on this issue, it's true.

Laurie

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lauriewrites 5 pts

You can't step in the same river twice, you can't live two lives or two
decisions simultaneously. None of us.

That's one of my favorite parts because there are some rivers I'd have gotten the hell out of years ago given the do-over but no one has that kind of useful information going in, unfortunately.

Thanks for all you've always added to this conversation. Thankfully I know so many women who do listen and contribute thoughtfully from their own experience and insight. It really does make a difference for all of us. This thread is proof (at least for me.)

Laurie

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lauriewrites 5 pts

Because the implication that if you don't have children, you are
"missing" traits like empathy (ironically) or patience is just so
offensive it's almost unbelievable.

And truly these things have been stated to me, that I don't know how deep love can run, I never will get it "until" I have children, which, hey, now that the time's running out means I just may be screwed.

It's really easy to fill in these blanks in your mind, I know. I just have to be secure in the knowledge that whereas I may never know what it's like to PERSONALLY feel a mother's love, because if I'm not one I don't know how I'd really feel if I were one, that I do know how to love people, I do know how to give, I've seen actual parents who I think could use a dash more or two of these qualities, and stop, for God's sake stop, trying to rationalize what I DON'T have and focus instead on what I do.

I know it must feel so off the charts amazing sometimes that it's easy to assume people who don't have kids can't understand. But because I learned a crazy level of compassion and love from my own mother, I like to think I've got a healthy amount of it going for me anyway. :)

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lauriewrites 5 pts

Thank goodness so many of them and that so many moms blog about there
fanastic lives with their children but it's not universal. The ones
that don't love their children certainly don't speak for those that do.

So why would anyone assume that me and my friends and the many women I
don't know but are like us think exactly like child- and mom-hating
child-free?

And for goodness's sake, can we please stop using reproduction and
children against each other. I don't care if you are child-free,
childless, have one child, ten children, work at home, stay at home,
whatever. You made the choice that was right for your family. Let me
make mine.

Your thoughts on this were the reason I wrote about it in the first place and thank you for bringing it back to individual choice and sound decision-making.

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lauriewrites 5 pts

Go figure, I even like some people who produce more than one child at a time. The Goon Squad actually upped your ante considerably.

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lauriewrites 5 pts

There are articles written demeaning motherhood and the choice to procreate as well,none of which I would write and I wouldn't find those valid contributions to any discussion either. There were no specific references here, though, and I do think the premise was unclear.

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lauriewrites 5 pts

The conversation would have been a lot more interesting and I'm sure I would have emerged a lot less depressed about it. :) And I think your #2 reason above is behind a lot of bad and arrogant behavior. I like secure, kind people, personally. 

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lauriewrites 5 pts

Later on the author stated that it was a blog for moms and that was the intended audience, which confused me further.

And really, if the people you're talking to either intentionally or accidentally already have the potential to feel "less than," why turn the screws? That's the part I don't get, but I'm trying to focus on the positives from this discussion which turned out to be a lot more valuable for me. (And for many of us, I think.)

Laurie

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ModelSupplies 5 pts

Thank you for defending us, Laurie!

She seems oblivious (even in her "apology") to the fact that some people have no choice. And others have made responsible choices based on their circumstances and timing. I am tired of being judged on this point, too. At age 46, I can tell her that she will never feel many of the emotions I have felt. Emotions that forced me to grow up in other ways. Why is it ok to attack those without children in our society, the same way it's ok to make fat jokes? These things are no less painful just because they are in the minority.

I'm following @lauriewrites hope you all will, too~!

Anita @ModelSupplies

taylorca 5 pts

I was reading through all of the excellent comments on this wonderful post, thinking "nobody's mentioned the form of words that I use", but you proved me wrong, Maria. If asked, I, too, say "I don't have children" - and as a rule, that's all I have to say on the subject. I shouldn't have to explain myself, I don't explain myself, and it's not my problem if others can't process that.

For myself, though - it still hurts, when people press the issue. Hurts a lot.

cherylsmith75 5 pts

My hat is off to you, completely.  I'm one who always dreamed of having kids, was sure I'd love every minute of it, and now at 34 I have two girls, 6 and 11.  And you know what?  I wasn't cut out for it.  I just wasn't.  I adore my girls, don't get me wrong, but if I could do it all over again, I would NOT have kids.  It's not my cup of tea.  I love what they bring to my life, but I'm honest enough with myself and with others to admit that it wasn't the best decision for me.  Both my husband and I agree that we would be happier without kids.  Now, that doesn't mean that we don't heap love on them and enjoy being their parents, because we most certainly do.  But we'd be happier without kids.  That's just the reality.  When we sit and talk about what our dream lifestyle would be, it most certainly doesn't involve children.  We've lived all over the world, but weren't able to experience as much as we would have liked, because we had young kids at the time.  We would both love to not own a home, but rather a small loft apartment downtown.  We'd love to travel frequently, go out without having to line up a babysitter first, drive smaller vehicles (I do drive a MINI Cooper with 2 kids, which I'm pretty damn proud of), and so forth.  Kids just don't factor into that equation, so we've had to make compromises along the way.  Again, this is something I'm ok with, but the fact remains that it's not our ideal.

I give major props to people who are sure of their lack of desire to have kids throughout their lives, and don't compromise it.  Deciding to have kids is, for all intents and purposes, a selfish, selfish act. It isn't about the kids!  They have no choice in the matter.  Parents have kids because THEY want them, because THEY want to increase their family size, because THEY want the joys of parenthood, because THEY want a family to come home to, because THEY want grandkids someday.  Once they have kids, though, it becomes a very selfless act.  It's interesting how that works.  

I've enjoyed each stage of my daughters' lives, but I find that I'm enjoying them progressively more and more as they age, and I have no doubt that I'll enjoy motherhood even more once they're grown, living their own fulfilling lives, and we can have the kind of relationship that I now have with my own parents -- one more of peers than of childrearing.  I look forward to that on a regular basis.  I look forward to them leaving home, and hearing about their adventures in college, their relationships (or lack thereof), their friendships, their career fulfillment (or again, the lack thereof), and so forth.  I get heat about this from more people than I care to admit.  People tell me I'm full of hate, full of anger, and/or that I don't love my children, but they couldn't be farther from the truth.  It really boils down to the fact that I don't define myself by my children.  I'm not just a mom.  I'm a mom, a wife, a friend, a daughter, a sister, a pianist, a knitter, a lifelong student and learner, a baker, a reader, a traveler, and the list goes on and on.  No one category defines my life more than any other, and I think that's what is enabling me to raise healthy, happy, intelligent, creative, well balanced daughters.  Funny how that works, isn't it?

Again, my hat is off to you.  Thanks for writing this!

InkAndPixelClub 5 pts

I do give her credit for coming out with an apology and I think the quote from Caitsmom is a very good one.

Sara

www.inkandpixelclub.com ( http://www.inkandpixelclub.com )

StacyJIll 5 pts

Thank you for posting this.

It's kind of interesting that this came from someone in Orlando. My brother and his family live down there, and he is constantly saying how amazing it is, etc. I went down to visit for the first time and I realized why he keeps boasting about it. It's practically ALL families. Don't get me wrong, it's an amazing place for my nephews to grow up. They have many amazing resources at their disposal in terms of activities, etc. It's just not for me. (my choice :) )

I'm definitely at that age (mid 30's) where most of my friends are now having kids (post career, etc) and the increasing divide is noticable. I still get invited to the birthday parties, etc, but there is this look , the "oh you aren't settled down yet because you don't have kids."

I could have had kids in my 20's, but like most of my friends who were pursuing my careers, we weren't in that mindset. Now, it's a whole different ballgame. After coming out in my mid-20s, I realized that to become a parent would actually involve quite a bit of expense. I don't even mean the diapers... :)My partner and I go back and forth between wanting kids, etc. I think there is that yearning for it, but on the other hand there is so much that we have to do to achieve it.

Meanwhile, I get comments from some friends/relatives on how crazy my life is, and how I get to do so many "cool" things, but it feels frowned upon in some respects. I haven't grown up yet.  I feel like it's this huge assumption that my life isn't "Full" without kids.

If we could all just appreciate that we are human and can actually make decisions for ourselves and not judge others, the world would be a happier place. :)

Stacy Jill Jacobs

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My company: http://www.queerlywed.com
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lauriewrites 5 pts

I'm on an overnight retreat with students so it's been great that you all are keeping up. There are reams herexto respond to & some things I really want to highlight. It's honestly driving me crazy not to be engaging but although Im reading everything I just can't swing typing on the iPhone for each one.

I'm honestly overwhelmed by the quality and thoughtfulness of the comments here. I could write letters in response to some of them. Thanks so much for taking the time.

AmberS 5 pts

I just want to thank you, Laurie, for an amazing and touching post.

I have kids. Of course I feel that they add something to my life. Although many things add something to my life. That doesn't mean that I believe my life wouldn't be full if I hadn't had them. Because it would, it would just be different in some ways.

I think that reacting out of a defensive position is never the best way to go. It looks like Kim Hayes has since apologized, and recognizes what happened. I hope that we can take a lesson from that, and move on in a positive direction.

~ Amber

www.strocel.com ( http://www.strocel.com )

sweetsalty 5 pts

Laurie, what a great post. Thanks so much for the lovely words, too.

I can't be bothered commenting on the supposed point Kim Hayes was trying to make. It's inane and pointless, as it would be to debate the point of a round versus a flat earth, or why Obama is not Hitler. It's such an absurd stake in the sand that I want nothing to do with it. The very notion that such a thoughtless piece of writing got such play (even negative play) depresses me.

What gets me about all this, regardless of whatever apology Kim Hayes posted, is the utter transparency of stunts like this. Because that's what it is. A bloggy stunt. It's a ridiculous, offensive stance that is put forward with the highest of hopes for 'troll'-earning, linking and buzz at any cost.

In a response to my comment on that post, Kim said "I have the right to my opinion" but this is not remotely my issue. My issue is that unless she is a highly trained oragutan, she knows as plain as I do that the only motive for putting such divisive, inflammatory nonsense on a blog is to inflame people and to trawl for attention as you trawl for bottom-feeders. By dragging blades and nets across the muck.

It's the unimaginativeness and the residual stink that offends me. It's how this makes the internet the domain of pointless and hurtful wanking. I don't want any part of an internet like that.

Props to her for apparently apologizing, but I can't help but think that she, as well as the Sentinel, are slapping backs over this one. Which leaves me feeling like it's time for a shower and a shake-off.

Pardon me if this is a re-tread of my comment to her. Can't help it. My sincerest hopes are that I'm wrong, and that Ms. Hayes has indeed learned some kind of lesson about compassion today. The cynic in me doubts it, but then again, I might just need a beer and a good night's sleep.

Kate

--

www.sweetsalty.com ( http://www.sweetsalty.com )

grannysu 5 pts

Granny Sue Stories from the Mountains and Beyond www.grannysu.blogspot.com ( http://www.grannysu.blogspot.com ) susannaholstein@yahoo.com

Amen. For some it's a choice; for others a painful lack. For all it's personal. Let's leave each to their own situation/decision. I have childless friends, child-free friends, and friends with lots of kids. I don't think it's any of my business how they came to have or not have children--I just like them because they are my friends. If they want to tell me why, I'm there to listen and understand. Not to judge or advise.

Mom101 5 pts

A lot has been said and assumed about me and my intentions with my blog post about the child-free. I’ve been following the debate on numerous blogs and forums. I think I’ve read every word.

Off all the things written, it was Caitsmom at A Fifth Season ( http://afifthseason.blogspot.com/2009/08/compassio... )
who made me realize that I have not been a very big person. (And, yes
it's very hard to admit that.) She wrote: "The desire to be right, I'm
convinced, is an obstacle to being compassionate."

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/features_momsatwo... ( http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/features_momsatwo... )

Mom-101 ( http://mom-101.blogspot.com )
( http://coolmompicks.com )

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leeannthill 5 pts

That's quite an offensive, mean-spirited post at that link.  For a moment, I considered what I could say in a comment, but it seemed to me that there wasn't anything I could say that wouldn't be misconstrued or twisted into evidence that I'm one of those "insufferable whiners".  I actually didn't read Ms. Hays' post, but I can't imagine it's any less vicious.  That woman isn't holding herself up to standards any higher than the people she quoted on the childfree sites.

Bad mouthing certainly exists, and the Imperfect Parent is as guilty as anyone.

Lee Ann Thill

The Butter Compartment ( http://www.thebuttercompartment.com )

A Lifetime of Type 1 Diabetes: War, Peace and My Mission to Help & Inspire Others

InkAndPixelClub 5 pts

I am personally child-free by choice.  I certainly don't think of myself as anti-children, but I'm not someone who melts at the sight of any baby or young child.  Animals reduce me to cooing and unintellgible baby talk much more frequently than kids do.  It's just how I'm wired, I guess.

That said, I actually have a great deal of respect for the people who do decide to have children, in part because I usually give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are making this decision after having looked at all of the aspects of having kids that frighten me off and still decide that it's worth it.  I've seen from many angles how tough it is to be a parent even for good people and good parents.  I know that there are times when simply conceiving a child isn't enough to turn you into the person that child needs you to be.  And the conclusion I've come to is that I'd rather not have kids even if I might have what it takes to a great parent than have kids and risk learning that I'm not even capable of being a good parent.

That's my choice and i have no illusions about it necessarily being right for anyone but myself and my husband.  Which means I am not going to extoll the joys and virtues of a child-free life unless someone comes along trying to tell me how empty and meaningless my life is for not having children and how many wonderful things I will never know or understand.  I completely agree that it is a very personal aspect of a person's life and I don't think anyone should be subjected to tirades from people on either side of the issue.

What really turns me off about Hays's list of parenting highlights is how generic it all feels.  Now granted i haven;t read the whole thing and maybe you just happened to pick the most generic examples from her list, but I can't help feeling like they're all just so Hallmark card ooey-gooey that I find it more forced than sweet.  I'm wondering if she has entries for "butterfly kisses" and "little white flowers all up in her hair" as well.  As you correctly point out, no truly militant anti-child person is going to suddenly burst into tears at the thought of missing out on "Giggles, giggles, and more giggles."  The parenting stories I enjoy are the ones that do not seem to be told by someone who is wearing rose colored glasses 24-7 and where the joys comes from the kid being an individual.  I like stories that say "This is my kid and the wonderful things about my kid and being a parent are the things that make us different from other kids and parents."  I like stories about parents who don't pretend that parenting is just nonstop joy and fun and yet still find the experience worth it.

The fact is, no one can ever fully imagine what it is like to be any other person.  I'm sure there are things that I will never enjoy or completely understand because I chose not to be a mother, but couldn't there be things that people who never have kids understand and enjoy that people who becomes parents can't?  I think it is more fair to say that each choice has it's joys and its drawbacks and it's less a choice between a good option and a bad one than finding which option is right for you personally, assuming you are even given the opportunity to make the choice yourself.

Sara

www.inkandpixelclub.com ( http://www.inkandpixelclub.com )

sassymonkey 6 pts moderator

You can take that show on a speaking tour around the world and make billions.

Sassymonkey ( http://sassymonkey.ca/ ) and Sassymonkey Reads ( http://sassymonkeyreads.ca/ ).

ItsyBitsyKC 5 pts

I am not a mother, but I work with children often, and I help a friend with her mommyblog.  While researching for my friend, I stumbled across the "Child-free" and "Child-less" topic on momversations a few weeks ago.  A few momversation bloggers talked about how, while they fully respect those who choose to be child-free, they were offended by some child-free bloggers that had explicitly expressed their disgust for children, and the people who choose to have them.  Apparently, there are some child-free blogs out there that can come off as quite abrasive about their philosophy.

My fiance and I are neither child-free nor child-less.  We do not plan to have children because we don't feel that we need children to have a "complete" life, but we understand that things may change down the line.  I was appalled because I wanted to tell this momversation blogger that I am child-free, but not a child-hater.  Whether you like children or not does not have much to do with it - my own mother publicly declares that she does not care for children, but she wanted me, had me, and is a fabulous parent. 
More importanly, I wanted to clarify that I do not think I am better than people who choose to have children, and that I would NEVER refer to anyone as a "breeder" or whatever nasty name because of their personal life choices. It's a very personal decision you make with your partner, or yourself, and it shouldn't be anyone else's business. 
I understand that emotions run strong when it comes to this topic.  Everyone gets angry and defensive when they feel that their personal decisions are criticized, and they lash out.  However, there are always a few "crazies" out there that is giving whatever is affiliated with them a bad name.  So...even though Kim Hay's article was nasty and offensive - I think I will just categorize it as a "crazy" and move on.  I mean, her list of things I am, apparently, missing out on is just a list of (pardon me) WTFs.  Does she live in Disneyland? 
With the topic of child-free v.s. childful, we shouldn't forget that this discussion exists because we have the right to choose.  I don't understand how people can be putting each other down for their choices, when they should be celebrating that fact that we have these choices. 

Mom101 5 pts

To be fair, there are plenty of "child-free" people who denigrate parents as "breeders," mothers as "moos" and far worse. Read this post at Imperfect Parent ( http://www.imperfectparent.com/articles/articles19... ) about some of the child-free list serves. 

That said, two wrongs don't make a right.

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