It's so American that we look at other cultures and say, "You women must stop binding the feet of your daughters," or "You women must stop removing the clitorises of your daughters," but we are unable to look at ourselves and say, "You women must stop mutilating your daughters to hide true age."

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Ronni-
Thank you for your post! Friends of mine in their mid-20's get Restylane and Botox to "compete" with younger women (21? 22?).

But just recently, my mother (65 and stunning, and au naturel, a former true beauty) told me that she was so relieved she was no longer an object of attraction for men. She said after 50 years of ogling and assumption, she finally got to feel smart.

It is the schizophrenia of the American culture at work here. In one breath we extol the virtues of education, social justice, and acceptance of oneself; and in the other we fill our minds with drivel about celebrities and their beauty secrets.

I find it strange when a sixty-year-old woman looks like she's forty, unless it is a natural effect. It doesn't matter how you slice it. If you're going for constant Botox, plastic surgery, or other beauty treatments, there is a part of you that isn't content with who you are. I think that is sad and hope that it can be overcome in our society.

Morra...I felt the same way when I became a mother as your mother describes about being older. It was very empowering. I felt like I had more important things in life to worry about other than my appearance or what others thought of me. It was very freeing.

Terri

Wheat Among Tares

First, let me make clear, that I just wanted to "hurl" when I read the excerpts you included. You could not be more right that infantilizing women and asking them to hide their "imperfections" is just a giant step backwards in every way. That said, I hear echoes of dialogues that I had with my own mother many years ago. At 65, she is a stunningly beautiful, totally natural woman and I am grateful that I have her genes.... BUT, she was also a protest-marching, bra-burning, feminist who "fought" for women's rights and busted more than one glass ceiling herself. And I think it's that "fight" that a lot of younger feminists are struggling with.

The feminists who came before us did astonishing things, and they made it possible for feminists of the future to choose their own path. Where they had to pool together and cut a strong single swath through seas of oppression, we are able to surf our own tributaries and branch out.

In the case of my mother and I - and the case of fashion - it was a tough road as I defined my own feminism. I felt GUILTY for wanting to wear lipstick, for wanting to be girly and flirty, for wanting to remove all my body hair and all the things that my mother rejected. I felt as if I was betraying feminism for being the super-feminine person than I am. It took my mother years to understand that for ME, unabashedly presenting all of my "girliness" to the world, while also presenting killer business acumen, decision making power, and not compromising myself in any way was MY brand of feminism.

Granted, neither she, nor any feminist that I know REALLY said that we couldn’t dress-up and be “girlie,” but that was the impression that many of us got. And there has been an inevitable backlash against it.

The backlash makes me sad, from both the old and the young. It seems to me that there is no more a working definition of what a strong woman is than there is a working definition of a human. And there shouldn’t be. I think the greatest gift that the pioneering feminists gave us is the freedom, right, and responsibility to define womanhood how we choose to do it.

But NOTHING can excuse the author’s suggestion that we should hide who we are. If we are wrinkled, we should be wrinkled. If we are strong we should be strong. If we are quiet we should be quiet. If we are assertive we should be assertive. And, if we want to dress-up like fashion dolls and pay attention to such things, we should. But we should not judge any other woman for choosing her own path. After all, the right to choose is, arguably, one of the greatest things that the feminist movement has given us!

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Ronni Bennett
Time Goes By

To askhyourmother:
Like your mother, I marched and protested and argued and demanded - even won a few small but important feminist battles.

I'm proud of that and I'm astonished at how far we've come since those days. The only career choices I had when I got out of school were nurse, teacher, waitress and secretary. Now you and your contemporaries and your daughters can be anything you can dream of.

Still, we haven't won completely. There is plenty more to do and that is the job of your generation and those coming up behind you.

As you point out, among the things your mother and I marched for was/is the right for each of us to be whatever we are. And if that involves lipstick and hair color and especially three-inch, high-heeled shoes (oh, how I miss wearing those!), that's not a problem for me (although I admit that removing pubic hair creeps me out; it reminds me of turning grown women into simulacra of prepubescent girls).

Other than that one caveat, I think girliness is just fine. It's loads of fun and I can't see how it compromises anyone's feminist beliefs. Where I draw the line at girliness, however, is any form of plastic surgery or medical cosmetic procedure not intended to correct disfigurement.

Nips and tucks and collagen and Botox, etc. etc. exist for only one reason: to reduce signs of aging and create a pretense of youth. Every time a woman (or man) does this, they are promoting and perpetuating ageism - reinforcing the idea that to get old is to become a lesser being in the eyes of everyone else.

Ageism leads to age discrimination in the workplace, less aggressive healthcare for elders, sidelining old people from the mainstream of life and much more, all of which is vicious, hateful and no different from every other kind of bigotry.

If, in a similar manner, blacks were encouraged by the culture to bleach their skin, there would be revulsion throughout the land. Why, then, is that not so when elders are encouraged to undergo the knife to become grotesque facsimiles of youth?

So I DO judge the women and men who choose a cosmetic procedure path because it encourages everyone to deny getting older and leads to discrimination against anyone who finds surgical- or chemical-induced, faux youthfulness to be abhorrent.

Thank you for this.

I don't have much to add, other than that I am constantly ashamed (and mortified) that the "F" word itself has been hijacked and turned into something ugly by...well, I'm not sure who all to point the finger at. (The right? Rush? Anyone and everyone who has ever uttered the term, "feminazi"?)

I once heard a soundbyte from "glam-ma"'s daughter, Ms. Kate Hudson who was declaring she wasn't a feminist because she chooses to be a stay-at-home mother.

There seems to be an entire generation of women who believe that being a feminist means being anti-feminine, while all but ignoring (taking for granted?) the myriad choices they have...and who fought to make those choices possible.

I am going to say this and then duck, because the last time that I disagreed with Ronni Bennet, she bushwacked me.

However, I must go down as representing those Women Who Are Sixty and Over Whatever You Want to Call Them who feel that Ms Bennet's attitude is judgmental and holier-than-thou. She has every right to consider why she is or is not pursuing a particular path in aging. She has no right to condemn those who find another.

The dislike, even hatred, of the old by the young is so deeply held that even people who believe they are embracing elderhood don’t know how demeaning they are.

Change a couple of words in her opening statement--trade places for "old" and "young" and see if Ms. Bennett can recognize the irony of her own post.

Growing older happens. Everyone has a different way of dealing with it because, hey, we're all individuals. And if we're looking to re-empower feminism, we might remember that what has fragmented women's power in the past is the totalizing stances taken by one cohort or another.

Whatever happened to Sisterhood????

By Jane
ByJane.blogspot.com

I quite agree with ideas set forth in this post. I certainly would not deny anyone the choice to subject their body to whatever procedures they may wish.

Seems to me the issue is that many individuals are increasingly being subjected to adopting an attitude and belief system that they must take unnatural, even surgical means to avoid the appearance of physically aging. Writing, however unintentional and often by women, seems to denigrate those today who choose to age naturally as noted in the post.

I, too, would not like to see gross splintering on sub-topics distracting groups of women or age groups from the critical issues of aging, age discrimination, related matters, as happened with the feminst movement. That is why I think it is so important the proponents of artificial aging be fully aware of the climate their actions and words create as with Ms. Schwab.

BTW, I had my share of spike heels, pointed toes and would not have them back for a minute -- especially after becoming aware of the foot damage they created for so many women as they aged. The shoes made the body look great, just as cosmetic facial plastic surgery does for some now, though even that is only temporary at best, since sooner or later the resulting effects become distortions -- at least in the aging faces I have seen in person.

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My mother-in-law is visiting this week, in from NYC. While my spouse/her son is at work and my kids/her grandkids are in school, it's just us, and we sometimes get into some pretty interesting discussions. Her father (my kids' great-granddad) is in his late 80s, and recently got out of the hospital after a dizzy spell. We were talking about how this brought up, for her, all sorts of feelings she thought she had processed already regarding her mother's death. While we were talking about death (death and in-laws, what a combo!) she kept putting on makeup - it was just her and me, but she put on the whole shebang, lipstick, powder, eye shadow, etc. I asked her why.

She said (and this is where it gets relevant) that she always unconsciously finds herself trying to look prettier when she thinks about her mother - who died looking not so great after rounds of chemo - as a kind of psychological protection. She equates looking good with looking too young to die, I guess. So my thought is, perhaps, a postmenopausal woman who does all that stuff to make herself look younger, isn't so much trying to look hot for men, but is unconsciously fending off fears of dying.

Maybe that's a little too deep or a Saturday morning? But the discussion thread reminded me of that conversation.

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Attempting to deny one's age is reminiscent of putting one's finger in a dike. No matter how hard we try, our age & what comes with it is always with us. However, I'm not going to throw stones at anyone else's choices and I would prefer that no one throw stones at mine. Youth and beauty have long been worshipped in our society. And the aged were respected for their years, wisdom and experience. The latter is no longer true. We elders are often ridiculed,
discriminated against, and ignored today. Now we're being told that we have to stay young in our looks and in our minds. I resent that. I don't mourn my youth's passing; as I
approach my 60th birthday, I like, and am more comfortable with, the woman I am today better than the Kay of 40 years ago. I have no need to try to recapture the angst and pain of callow youth. If others wish to do so, that's their choice.

I confess to have wandered past the Clinique counter & wondered if that $100 cream would make my skin look better, but common sense kicks in, and I stick with my $5 cleanser and an occasional herbal masque. It seems to work just fine for me. And I've never, ever considered plastic surgery or Botox. The latter is poison and a doctor only cuts my body if absolutely necessary. To do otherwise, in my mind, is courting possible disaster. Do I like to nice? Of course-- But I'm not wearing spike heels and mini skirts for anybody!

The Femininist movement, for me, has always signified expanded choices and I applaud its accomplishments and those
who worked so hard for them. The keyword is choices. And our
choices define our lives. For example, I chose to be a stay-at-home mom and when I had to go into the workforce because I chose to leave my marriage, it was a detriment but not nearly so great as the discrimination I've suffered because of my age. Can I hide my age? No, I cannot--not with surgery; not with shots, makeup, clothes or plain damn lying. They can't ask your age but they can and DO ask what year you graduated from high school. And that, my friends, is the bottom line. You can run but you can't hide.

and continue to be horrified by the way pop culture continues to denigrate women once we hit middle age...

I am disgusted by fashonistas like Ms. Schwab who believe we should all be trying to emulate 20 and 30-somethings who, like you say Ronni, are still in the mating game...

But likewise those of us in the 40 and 50-something range shouldn't be spending our time wringing our hands over our slowing metabolisms and impending menopause...

I bring this up because the Today Show (also part of the MSNBC juggernaut), over the past two weeks has had two reports--the first one titled "It's not your mother's menopause!" the other a group of 40 somethings standing in a kitchen discussing their impending menopause--that painted middle aged women as nothing more than a sad bunch of creatures mourning their lost reproductivity.

There's so much more to us than our abilities to trap a husband and reproduce....

But, sadly, those are the only things that pop-market culture seems to fixate and project on to us.

Which makes me wonder: are we, in this media-saturated day and age, really able to freely choose to both mentally and physically mature according to our chronological age? Or are we being bludegeoned to death by a marketplace that can make more money from us by teaching us to hate the aspects of humanity that are not frozen in a particular phase or reproductive fecundity?

Tish Grier
Editor, Corante Media Hub
Blogging at: The Constant Observer and
Love&Hope&Sex&Dreams

Yes, happy birthday, Tish G. And you raise some very intersting questions/thoughts.

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