Personally, I just don't like Hillary Clinton. I don't like her politics. I won't vote for her for the same reason I didn't vote for Bush. I don't think she'll be good for the country.

I think we're ready for a femal president, or an African American president, or anyone that can do a better job than Bush is doing. I also believe that if Hillary Clinton is our first female president, there will never be another.

I won't vote for her because I don't want to hear, "Yeah, there's a woman running, but remember what happened the last time one got elected?"

I cannot stand Ms. Hillary or her weird ideas- too bad she's a woman. There are PLENTY of women I respect and would back.
The fact that Hillary is soooo smart but did not realize what a creep her husband is- is just too funny for words.
Men who force themselves on women are sick and need to be put away. Women who protect and back them for their own finacial and political purposes should be put with them- away from the rest of us.
I am an ex-law enforcement person who is very tired of political people getting away whatever perversions they desire.
Give me a candidate who respects other people and our Laws and I will vote for them- what ever their sex.

I don't really like her politics, either.

I won't vote for her in the primary, because I see it as a wasted vote. Even if she won the Democratic primary I don't think she has any chance at all of winning a national election. Clinton has been the Republican boogeywoman for far too long and I don't think her Senate career has changed many people's minds.

If she wins the primary, I supposed I'd vote for her in the general election, but I'd prefer seeing a woman run who I feel I could really get behind.

Because, as you say viciousrumous, "I won't vote for her because I don't want to hear, "Yeah, there's a woman running, but remember what happened the last time one got elected?"

Imagine if we said that about voting for a Protestant white guy! Well, I won't vote for him because he might screw up and we may never get another Protestant white guy in office...

I think women not wanting to support Clinton may have more to do with not supporting her politics than anthing else. There's no reason to support anyone--regardless of gender or race--if we do not believe in what she/he stands for.

Tish Grier
Editor, Corante Media Hub
Blogging at: The Constant Observer and
Love&Hope&Sex&Dreams

Thank you for posting about this.

Oh, how I wish I could support Hillary. We should have had a woman as prez years ago.

Hillary is simply too conservative for my tastes. I don't accept her explanation for why she supported the war in Iraq. I'm sorry, she's a smart woman. We should believe that she believed Bush years ago? I don't think so. That's nothing but craven politics. I didn't believe him and my only source of information is media. She has also said that she supports restricting a woman's right to choose. She used to be a Republican. And, what I dislike most about her is what I disliked about Kerry. She refuses to take a direct stand on anything. Rather, she caters to whatever group she is speaking too. She tells Iowans (where I live at the moment), for example, that renewable energy is the thing, specifically ethanol. Of course she does. Iowa is waiting to become the next Saudi Arabia.

I like folks with a message. And right now my choice is John Edwards, white man or no. He's the only one talking about the real elephant in the room: poverty and lack of opportunity for the less fortunate in the U.S. I'd be happy to support Obama so far too, but I haven't heard enough of his "message." He may win me over in the end, because some things about Edwards really bother me (support for "prayer time" in schools, support for death penalty).

As a two-time participant in the Iowa caucuses, however, I would be surprised if Hillary is not Iowa's choice. She's the same as Kerry before her. An instrument of the party.

Oh, and I just wanted to add, that I could care less about her personal life and her relationship with Bill Clinton. People come to the arrangement that works best for them and it certainly isn't any of my business and doesn't have an effect on her politics.

Excellent piece, Morra and my response is cranky but not because of what you've written but because I'm annoyed by this already tired "you're a bad woman if you don't support Hillary" drama.

Feldt asks: "Will Clinton's seemingly natural base--women--lift her to victory in her party's nomination, let alone the general election? Shouldn't women support Hillary in the same way support from African Americans is beginning to sway toward Barak Obama?"

And towards whom are African American women supposed to "sway"? Does Obama or does Hillary get to lay claim? I guess her "natural base" of women are only white. And, I suppose, Latinas will all vote for Bill Richardson and women of any other race or ethnicity are allowed to vote republican.

In terms of policy proposals I most admire Dennis Kucinich. I also admire his tremendous faith in himself and his chances, however, I just don't believe he will win the nomination let alone a general election so I won't vote for him. And it's not because I don't think America is ready to vote for a short man.

Feldt also writes:

Only when we have gender equality will we have the luxury of gender-neutrality in our political choices. American women should get a grip, get over their fears and get together to create the tipping point for women seeking high public office.

Because in the end, our fear is not about Hillary Clinton. It's about ourselves.

Wouldn't it be nice if we had the luxury of ignoring political realities, disappointing though they may be, and all just voted for the candidate whose policies we most support and if women didn't have to defend their choice to not vote for Hillary.

So to answer your question, Morra, no, I don't think people are waiting for her to fail. I think lots of people just don't like her, don't like her spouse, don't like her policy proposals or don't think she can win and people wonder about those questions with every leading candidate at some point, fair or not.

One of the other streams of thought that I have a problem with is that if any woman is *not* for Clinton, then she is somehow less supportive of women, or less liberal, or less feminist -- all of which are just plain balderdash. It is very possible to object to Hilary Clinton as president on the grounds of her politics.

And what is it with always calling her "Hilary"? We didn't always call Kerry, "John". We don't always call Obama, "Barak".

~~ Contributing Editor, Mata H. also blogs relentlessly at Time's Fool

"And what is it with always calling her "Hilary"? We didn't always call Kerry, "John". We don't always call Obama, "Barak"."

You are SO right!! Why is it that just because Hillary is a woman she has to have a "conversation," and soft lighting and a first-name relationship with the country????

And will her VP candidate have to use his first name on the placards??

*smiles* Morra, I've been saying that about the men running for President since I was a teenager. I don't think we've had a decent choice for President in a very long time. Mostly we are forced to chose between the lesser of two evils. Sad.

It's unfortunate that stigma will be forever attached to a femal presidency if the first one elected fails to accomplish Kennedy like stature, but it's true none the less. The same holds true for electing an President of another ethnic group. No one seems to not want to elect another old white guy because Bush screwed things up....I wonder why that is?

Backing Hillary Clinton should be done because you agree that she will be able to fix problems that need fixing and from where I sit, she's just another fast talking politician. This would be an example of equal treatment....I don't like her anymore than I like the Protestant White Guy candidates.

It's a good topic for discussion though. How do we fix the perception that as long as it's an older, smiling white man with good "Christian" values it's okay to not judge him based on what others like him have done, but that for a woman or a person of ethnicity to be elected, they will be watched and judged and their actions will likely determine if any others of that gender or ethnicity get to run or be elected? Combating that mindset in our nation should be a primary focus.

Feldt asks: "Shouldn't women support Hillary in the same way support from African Americans is beginning to sway toward Barak Obama?"

Uhh, NO! If anything, women should be smart enough to learn from African-Americans. We've put in some outstanding leaders using the logic that the candidate is "black like me."

However, we've also put some crazy people in charge sometimes, voting African-American candidates into office based on race. Some of these candidates have done more damage than good. Women should study African-American history and learn to not vote for women simply because they are women.

Furthermore, Feldt is assuming that the main reasons African-Americans may be leaning toward Obama is because they hope he'll be the next black first. How very provincial of her! Is she assuming all African-Americans think the same way as some whites assume Jesse Jackson speaks for all African-Americans?

While some African-Americans may vote for Obama simply because he is of African descent, others are carefully studying his record. Ironically, Obama has the challenge of proving himself to be "black enough" with some African-American voters. (Takes too long to explain why.) If Feldt would consider the origins of why Obama should have to prove his blackness, she'd know her analogy is an oversimplification of the African-American experience.

The most appealing thing about Obama for me is that should he be elected and become "the first African-American President," he seems to have enough integrity and smarts to stay out of a scandal. I hope his brains may make up for his lack of experience; however, I remain concerned that he's moved too quickly in seeking the presidential office, too quickly in relation to his own experience, not too quickly in relation to America seeing an African-American President.

Inexperience notwithstanding, I think it may be that brain of his that's prompted his running. He may not win the nomination, but he may end up the final nominee's running mate.

Feldt should look around and pay attention. Al Sharpton ran for President without much support from the larger African-American community. Does she believe whatever she reads from big media and sees on TV about African-Americans and how we think? Does she see a crowd of black people congregating around a certain individual and assume even those of us who are absent like that person as well?

Really, her statement reminds me of a white woman who sat near me in '03 or '04 in the doctor's waiting room on the day Sharpton announced he was running for President. I heard the news and burst out laughing. Couldn't stop myself.

The woman looked shocked, and was honest enough to admit she was surprised by my reaction to his announcement. I said, "Oh, you thought all black people think alike and follow the same self-professed leaders?" She blushed, her bright red face revealing her misguided mindset.

The political climate for electing women to office is not the same as the political climate African-Americans face now and have faced in the past. Yes, there are some similarities, but the challenges are not and have not been the same. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that a white female makes it to the Oval Office before an African-American. In the meantime, Feldt should be more careful about how she makes her points. Certainly, she loses credibility with me using her "like African-Americans" analogy.

If Hillary would make a good President of the United States, then women and everyone else should consider voting for her. However, these times are more turbulent, war in mind, women should vote for the "best" candidate, regardless of gender. That may in fact be Hillary Clinton, but I'm not convinced she's the one for me, even less convinced after seeing her recent "drawl" shenanigans. Bill was more sincere. A lot of that laughter in Selma could be described as nervous chuckles.

Hillary! Stop trying to be "us" to win our love. If you're worthy to be the next President of the United States, then just be yourself.

As presidential candidates go, this nation has slim pickings.

"Love is liquid. Brew and be drunkards!" ~~Nordette

Hillary Clinton -- No. I can't vote for her and it doesn't have a thing to do with gender. It's a trust issue with Hillary -- I don't trust a thing that comes out of her mouth. Her politics are the flavor of whatever audience she panders to. But she says it in a way that comes across as totally fake and rehearsed, because you just KNOW that she has thought and rethought every single word. And it makes me angry that she thinks people are naive enough to not notice. Who the heck is Hillary? Who knows? That's what's so frustrating.

But it's not just Hillary with these shoddy politics. I have no doubt that most of us ARE looking for the same type of candidate no matter the race, gender, religion, or sexual orientation. My wish list:

1.) Honest

2.) Hard working

3.) Must have their own personal checkbook in balance

4.) Knows and lives by the Golden Rule-- that means NO NAME CALLING or negative campaigning -- ever.

5.) Good listener and team player -- as in gets our foreign policy back on track

6.) Gets the congress to actually do their work instead of grandstanding and voting on "pretend" ammendments

7.) Accountability. A candidate who is first to admit fault and take action WITHOUT needing prompting by a "special hearing" or media thrashing will definitely put the itch in my voting finger.

8.) No talking around the questions. Just say it and mean it and stick to it no matter who the audience is. We really do want to know what the candidate thinks -- really -- we're not kidding about that.

Side note: The second a candidate waffles on issues during a debate, I'd disqualify them from the debate -- if only I were Jim Lehrer...

9.) Someone who can make congress vote for term limits on their jobs. We need new blood! New thinkers! More of a true representation of The People.

10.) Someone who can boot out the special interest groups and lobbyist - for good. Period. Slam the door and nail it shut.

11.) Someone who thinks voting for one issue at a time is a good idea vs. trying to decipher and vote on 400 pages of ??? This way the voting record of each congressional member would be accurate and something tangible the voters can use to base an informed decision on the next election.

12.) I want someone who can leave all personal issues at home, or on the therapist's couch, or with their clergyperson. And I want the government to quit trying to decide all the personal issues for us. Sheesh.

Oh the dream world I do live in. I already know that I'll vote for any candidate who can meet my first three wishes... Colin Powell, what are you doing Nov. 2008?

http://www.marymbauer.com

Mention Hillary in a quiet room, then crawl out underneath all the legs...

I'm rather amused by the degree of hatred and dislike for her, and have been encountering this on a feminist board for some time. I inevitably ask those dissing Hillary to explain what it is about her policy positions which lead to their intense dislike.

I rarely get answers.

I'm not sure as yet who will get my vote, it's too early... but there is still an undercurrent of gender discrimination afoot here, of that I am convinced. You simply do not see this same level of intense dislike with men, not until there is an actual track record that can be dissected and critiqued.

With Hillary, it starts with health care. She advocated for *gasp!* covering everyone... imagine that - what a perfectly awful thing to propose. OK, so that flows into "but she wanted the government to be involved!" So rather than have the health care discussion this country so desperately needed and needs to have, we shot the messenger, and keep right on shooting.

Then it was her playing road runner to the Republicans wily coyote, as she danced around their feeble attempts to pin Whitewater and various other dreamed up events upon her and her hubby.

That was followed by her not nailing him in the nuts for his sexual transgressions, she was supposed to follow Lorena Bobbitt's lead and end his flirtations once and for all.

What gets lost here is we know not what she had to say to good old Bill when the doors were closed. She also played this in a very strategic way, knowing she could better advance her cause and her ambitions by hanging near Bill, rather than tossing him to the wolves in a public way. Not to mention how that would have impacted their daughter.

Not yet finished with her perceived faux pas, Hillary suggested all of us play a role in raising a child in our community. No! Why that's... how commie's think!

So who wishes to say universal health care is in fact a bad idea? Anyone wish to suggest a community has no stake and role in raising children?

I do think arguments can be put forth about her war stance, or even her move to the middle on choice, though I do understand what she was suggesting there... there is common ground, rather than dig trenches, let's accomplish something by working the middle. Makes sense.

I'm not crazy on her lukewarm snuggle up to the lgbt community. DADT is a noble thing to cast aside, but where oh where are you on marriage, Hillary?

Make no mistake... she is a brilliant human being, a cunning and shrewd politician, a formidable opponent. She also has to do what most every woman has to do when applying for a job - be twice as good as any man who applies, in order to be taken seriously. That can be a very tough standard for anyone.

nelle

What concerns me more is when I hear people say, "Oh, I just don't like her" without specifics as to why. When you do hear specifics, if you ask, what is Edwards or Obama's take on the same issue, you find that Clinton isn't much different. In fact, may even have a better take.

She voted to support the Iraqi war? So did Edwards. Edwards apologized, but Clinton didn't? Is that really so important?

More importantly, I dislike both Obama's and Edwards constant reference to religion, something you don't see Clinton do. In fact, Clinton is the candidate least likely to 'please' the crowd from what I've seen, so I'm surprised when people are critical of this.

Women shouldn't feel we have to support Clinton, or any other woman for office. But I do think we need to look inside and question our initial responses when we don't. We owe each other that, at least.

Then if it's a no go, at least it will be based on the issues.

What bothers me the most of this whole election is with all the diversity present, it will probably end up being some white, Christian, straight guy against another white, Christian, straight guy.

When are we going to stop being afraid?

"You simply do not see this same level of intense dislike with men, not until there is an actual track record that can be dissected and critiqued."

Hillary Clinton does have a track record. And yes, those who do not agree with the Bush politics "dislike" him just as vehemently -- before taking office and after.

It is not personal -- not for me. I prefer to know less about their private lives, but feel entitled to know the valid info as it pertains to running the country: Are they fiscally responsible? Do they play well with others? Do they have a good grasp on reality? (What the people are struggling with, what they want accomplished) Do they have a real plan to accomplish these tasks? Where do they stand on environmental issues? Do they NOT blame and excuse their behavior and incite the masses with fear (ie: the whole "axis of evil" thing)? Are they courageous and inspiring people? Do they get that the "job" is NOT about them or their religion?

I cannot vote for Hillary Clinton and it has nothing to do with gender. I could not and did not vote for George Bush (either of them -- ever) and it had nothing to do with gender.

Elizabeth Dole had my attention until she packed it in -- but again, we were just starting to get a glimpse of where she stood on issues and then it was over. So it's hard to say if she could've gone the distance.

I see Hillary Clinton as basically the new Dick Cheney -- quiet, smart, manipulative. Is capable of doing whatever it takes to forward her interest. If she doesn't want to be seen in this light, then her "track record" needs to look different. Same goes for John Edwards -- it's a "no" to him as well.

I am totally for doing whatever it takes to get the job done, and I absolutely KNOW how much smarter and harder a person has to work as a woman to do that -- but NOT when it's for personal gain at the expense of others. Probably why I don't shop Wal-Mart.

Hillary is to be commended for her attempt to change the role of June Cleaver-ish First Lady. Her healthcare for the masses was a very worthy cause and effort, and I have nothing but admiration for her in this regard -- but she's not talking about this issue now. At least I haven't picked it up in any sound bites.

And that's the fundamental problem as I see it with all of this -- we don't know who the candidates really are or what they really stand for. They ALL tell us what they think we want to hear -- all of the time -- without really saying anything. And if they are a congressional member, it is really tough to decipher how they feel about an issue based on their voting record. Maybe they didn't like the attached pork projects and their nay vote was about that?

The presidential candidates are applying for the toughest job in the nation -- we need their true credentials in order to hire the best person for the job. I don't think we've had a worthy applicant in a very long time...

http://marymbauer.com

Morra, Yes, but whose version of "truth and honesty" are we getting?

I couldn't agree with you more about the current challenge of learning the "truth" being solely the candidates problem. The media has a HUGE hand in "picking" our president. Sound bites easily make or break a candidate.

Oh God, the media -- probably best not to start on that, BUT... drama sells and not real issues and THAT IS OUR PROBLEM. Our responsibility. We actually do have control over that -- turn off the offenders. Don't watch them. Don't buy papers/mags with sensationalized reporting. If the drama no longer sells, the reporting will change.

But that said, the candidates ALL know this. At this point in our history they must take full advantage of the coverage they do get -- if they get any at all -- and let it rip. Let us know who they are.

So far, Hillary Clinton has done a good job of changing her position on key issues as to make me suspect of her motives, AND her sound bites have been less than flattering, and she did so KNOWING what she was doing. And that is why I can't vote for her now.

Had this been several years ago -- when Bill Clinton first took office... I liked her then. The media flogged her mercilessly, but that made me listen to her more. Why? Because she truly did seem to be someone who cared -- deeply -- about the same things I cared about. And though she struggled and wasn't all that polished, her true intentions came through loud and clear. She was Jimmy Carter with even less support!

But Hillary is not this same person anymore -- at least I haven't seen any evidence of this. There's a cold, calculated feel to her now -- could be she's more guarded and I don't blame her a bit -- makes sense, all she's been through. But what she DOES say, doesn't seem the same message anymore. It too seems cold and calculated.

And it angers me to the core that any woman could think this is about gender or race or any of that bull. I wish we'd all quit thinking this way because we are smarter than this. I am from the Midwest -- Wisconsin of all places. I talk to my friends -- male and female about this and the bottom line is these candidates are applying for a seriously tough job -- a selfless, dangerous, you will-look-and-feel-390 years-older-when-your-term-is-up kind of job.

We absolutely need a superhero in this position, yet we are all mortals. And the media does make a BIG fuss about that. Kennedy would've gone down in flames given the press coverage of today.

Can't have a superhero? Then I'll take the next best thing: someone who is genuine, honest, takes their lumps with grace, and says it like it is to my face every single time. No grandstanding allowed. Equal opportunity employer.

http://www.marymbauer.com

In the little utopian world that exists in my head, feminism will eventually bring us to the point where we look past a person's sex when we consider them for any job. It'll just be, is this person the most qualified candidate around?

I don't like the idea that women should vote for female candidates any more than I think it makes sense that men should vote for male candidates in some weird show of gender solidarity. (I wrote about this at BlogHer in a post called "Elect Women for a Change." Just because we share an identity as women does NOT mean we have the same goals and desires in life. Voting based on gender or ethnicity is foolish.

I also explained why I don't support Clinton, and it is for the same reasons that everyone else has already cited. I'm judging her on her actions and beliefs, and over the years, I've found them disappointing. I understand that politics are harsh and require compromises. Clinton is obviously smart, but I don't think she is the right leader for these times.

Suzanne, BlogHer Contributing Editor - Feminsim & Gender
Campaign for Unshaved Snatch (CUSS)& Other Rants

I honestly think that our current political system is morally bankrupt. It isn't the media. It isn't the gender preference. These are not the big issues.

I think the big issue is that the two main parties have sold out to entrenched special interest groups (not just the presidential candidates). The corruption, the lies, the secrets, the back rubbing and back stabbing -- all the heinous behavior -- we now take it for granted. Add to that protectionism, special favors, spin doctors, and floods of MONEY and we are left with a system that could make our founding fathers (and mothers) spin fast enough in their graves that clumps of earth should fly into the air.

It may be time for a viable 3rd party in this country.

~~ Contributing Editor, Mata H. also blogs relentlessly at Time's Fool