Once again, no peace in the Holy Land

One can not start behaving differently within any broader sense than you have without first abandoning the entire sense of the situation.

Meaning which you and most people hold on to, and which is also how this conflict continues forever. Provoking our fears and pushing us beyond to where we are trapped. So why not go doubt the whole human heritage*, yours mine and others

And if we had dropped and abandoned all that, only from there you can see for yourself and regain balance, because we are 'that' prior to anything.

So then go check who we are on this planet and what have you come here for, what are your social and your body needs - not using any implanted political metaphors

then you may come forward with your own heart for; any new real good idea about this situation is blessing and so will be our actions

This is the solution, it is within one, from the inside out

* I think after the two American nuclear bombs were droped, we have entirely embraced the killer within us and our archetypal subconscious turned suicidal. 

I wonder what your solution would be. I think we will all agree that this is an impossible situation to both sides. The best solution would be to talk, as Israel and the Phatah have been doing over the past year. The problem is that Hammas won't talk. Israel has proved it's willingness to talk and to compromize over and over again(during Oslo, during the 2000 negotiations) but the negotiations haven't brought a solution. I'm intetionally not blaming one of the sides, my point is that even after all these attempts we havent reached a solution with a partner who is willing to listen. And we are trying the same thing now, after Annapollis. So no one can blame Israel for not trying. But when it comes to the Hammas it is impossible.  It is impossible to negotiate with a terror organization which won't even recognize in the state of Israel and openly expresses their desire to annihilate it. What sovereign state would do such a thing?

The Hammas is holding all of Gazzas population hostage. You probably wont believe it but when I see the pictures of Gazza, im horrified. I do think of all the innocent people being killed, but I hold the Hammas responsible. They had an opporotunity to give those people a better life. When they got elected they became responsible for the life of all those people. They had the choice to abandon the way of terrorism, to make peace with Phatah and help the Palestinian poeple. But they chose to take advantage of their new status to increase their terror activity, to make an alliance with Iran and Hizbullah and not to care for the Gazza population.

Should Israel sit back and leave hundreds of thousand of citizens under the constant threat of the Kassam, while Hammas is stockinh up on new and improved weapons? It's very easy to criticize Israel's actions and  portray the Palestinians as the underdog. But In the whole region, Israel is a minority of  6,000,000 Jews amongst hundreds of millions of arabs. The Hammas has the support of Iran, Lebanon, Seira, certain groups in Egypt and Jordan and many more. It is ridiculous to potray them as the underdogs. The only onderdogs here are the Gazza population, who are a victim of the Hammass extremism.

Israel has proved it's willingness for peace with Egypt and Jordan, who were both enemies once and with the current negotiations with the Phatah. Clearly the problem is with the Hammas.

Last, I am jealous of your ability to live without hatred, but after living in this country and seeing what terror can do to a family and to a nation, i can not allow myself this privelage.

For the record I thought the following should be added:

I am Israeli born in  Tel Aviv and i wish to fully condemn the military apartheid Israel  created. YES ISRAEL CREATED HELL ON EARTH.

It is my hope that the full scale of these atrocities will now be uncovered, not just the one big concentration camp called Gaza but also; those many more segregated compounds for Arabs you have built in the West Bank.

We are Millions of Israelis Born for peace but prevented by Jewish Mental Disorder which is controling the whole Israeli policy as well as the American point of view.

For who firmly believes in Israel policies, its time you know that you invented hell for the Palestinian people and its time the whole world will see it too.

We are born loving and suffering with the natives of the land, the Palestinians, we are with you and Waiting !

Follow it via tweetgrid ( http://www.tweetgrid.com/grid?l=2&q1=%23askisr... )

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor ( http://blogher.org/blog/kim-pearson )|Professor Kim ( http://professorkim.blogspot.com/ )|

Yes back then when the world was far less civilized things of this nature did in fact occur.  I wasn't referring to the US of old, I was referring to the country we now live in, which has over the many years matured and is seen by many as the global example and global arbitrator.  Heck back then we stock piled tons of chemical weapons too to use in war, and just recently we saw a dictator killed as punishment for using those very same types of weapons against a coup attempt many years ago.

I would like to thinki our nation learned from these mistakes we made, and we are a much better nation now because of it.  Referring back to what we did over 60 years ago is not an accurate way to portray what is acceptible in todays society both home and abroad. 

Yes your time line is accurate, and i have read the comments on how the hamas came to power, and I concur with those comments.

Throughout 2008, every major diplomatic official, at the highest levels, has condemmed Israels housing expansions which have been seen by all these officials as a major road block in the peace process.  Everyone from PM Brown of England to Condeleeza Rice as spoke out against the ongoing expansion and has met with Isreali cabinet officials to discuss the situation throughout the year 2008.

Its also pointed out, that this behavior is in direct defiance of the Annapolis agreements reached in late 2007(August I believe), where Israel agreed to that ONE concession, in order to further the peace process, well demanding many concessions from the palestinian representatives during those negotiations.  Yet a couple months later it was announced they were budgeting a very large sum of money to continue the expansions in the West bank and Jeruselum.  That news came out on Dec. 30 2007, and since then every one has spoken to Israel about rthis decision, and all have pointed out how it would stall the peace process, and just lead to more palestinian suffering.

The palestinians in Gaza then saw the stalled peace process because of these new developements and became discouraged as well as their counterparts in the West Bank. They used this as justification for their actions, whether rightly or not.  They saw no end to the road, the blockade still in place, their people suffering more and more each day, and Israel thumbing their nose at the agreement they signed just months earlier in Annapolis.

At some point, desperation sets in, when you are a captive population at the mercy of a country who appears to be thumbing their nose at the world community, while suggesting through their actions, that their words and agreements mean nothing, and they can do as they please, regardless of the world opinion, because they are aware the world is afraid to take any meaningful measures against them for their behavior.

Here is a link to just some of the many articles reported in 2008 involving the illegal expanions of the jewish settlements in the disputed once palestinian territories.

http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&a...

When the US was attacked by the Japanese and war was declared, American citizens(!!!) of Japanese ancestorship were rounded up in camps like prisoners just because Japan was on the loose killing American citizens of European ancestorship...

We hear in the media that the hospitals in Gaza are short of needed medical equipment and medicines needed to treat the many injured. This is a very good example that sheds light on the priorities of the Hamas rulers of the Gaza strip. For them - human suffering is a "comodity" they can cash in the international political market to gain sympathy and ask for support and money. So - the bigger the plight, the better it serves them. The available economic resources on their hands are used to produce their "Kassam" missiles and to buy arms rather then provide medical help for their people. Someone who launches missiles at another does not have to be very clever to understand that to be on the safe side he should also prepare for war and stock medical equipment and medicines. Not the Hamas!!! They have their other priorities...

You got it all wrong, but that's the media fault
There are many things you're saying which are completely wrong, and I guess my job here is to point out the facts.
During what was called the "cease fire" (let me hide a little cynical smile here) many rockets were launched to Israel and we haven't reacted, becaue we believed there will be quiet.
 Avcourse, many media sources didn't publish that. what's so interseting in rockets falling over Israel if no one is dead? they publish only when Israel retaliate (sometime without even saying that Israel reacted because of the rockets, so Israel comes out as the 'bad guy', firing without any reason (again- hypocrite...).
Furtheremore, does the fact that they fire rockets and no one is dead (although there are many injured, and many  many with fear problems) not justify our right for self defense??? this is absurd, as if a burgler comes to your house, only if you're not dead, can you react... (funny, isn't it?).
 the saying that rockets they pocess are no real threat to any Isreali city is really outrageous, is this a reality YOU would want to live in?!?!?, it's like a russion roulette. do we nead to wait someone is dead so we can react?? do you hear what you're saying??
The Hamas is a terror organization, which controls Gaza and calls for the ditruction of Israel. It is not an individual, it is the main goal of the goverment who is in charge of Gaza. Need I say more?
The blockade is because of the rockets they are firing. What you maybe don't know, is that during the "cease fire", the hamas has equipped with long range missiles, bulit dozens of tunnels and armed itslef for a future attack of Israel, AND kept firing missiles.
Do you expect us to cancel the blockade to a state which calls to your destruction? a state which tries to send suicide bombers to kill innocent woman and children (also during the cease fire they tried to send these bombers!)?
I don't think soooo.
and regarding the hospitals, Israel opened the blockade and let hundreds of trucks with food and medicine to enter Gaza. Which country would do that???
I don't recall America was so gentle with the Indians, a few decades ago. I don't recall Austalia was so nice to the Aboragines a few decades ago. I don't recall Russia is being nice to chechnians terrorists, and I can go on and on. When it come to Israel, Hypocrites IS the exact word.

Hi Kim - 

Yes, yesterday someone forwarded to me an article about how Egypt was refusing to allow Gazans into the Sinai, which belongs to Egypt but I understand that since then, there's been a reversal. That NPR piece with Shibley Telhami that I link to a little further down in this thread talked about that and the Egyptians situation - much as you've recounted.

I think it is this failure for the other Arab populations to assert themselves against Hamas that is very hard for me to understand - I'm not saying this is right or makes sense, but it feels like, to me, why should Israel tolerate them when other Arab countries not only won't help them figure out a solution, but don't befriend Hamas either (with obvious exceptions)?  Blech - it's very hard for me to understand - what is it that is gained by Arab populations not demanding better, for Arabs, from Hamas? How is this to be interpreted?  I don't believe that most Arab populations want the Israeli Jewish population dead - but the silence or failure to deal with Hamas, themselves, though nothing new, continues to vex.

Yes - yes - I see re: the Muslim Brotherhood.  I don't know what we do with that.  It's so depressing to look back at the 1970s and remember the gains, really significant gains, in relations that had been made - and look what has happened to every major player.

What killed all that off? Is that inspiration any different than it is now?

Which brings us to the generations issue.

I think some time ago this topic has come up before, but I think about the research that's been done regarding N. Ireland and other wartorn areas and the impact on the younger generations.  There's no question, anyone who thinks about the Middle East for one minute, anyone who spent a minute thinking about what the legacy of our going into Iraq might be, would and should immediately think about the impressions that are created.  The start and the end of everything, in my opinion.

The only hopeful thing I can add is that Israeli Arabs will tell you, particularly those who've lived in Israeli Arab villages and in Israel their whole lives, that they feel 100% Israeli but want equality.  This is somewhat universal - from what I heard directly but also it's been written about.  Again, I don't mean to bang this drum, but Telhami writes and talks about this a lot.  The issues have to do with untangling nationality and identity.  There are Muslim and Christian Arabs in the IDF.  They know what their responsibilities are.  They are not required to serve, but they do - not in enormous numbers from what I understand though.

So - in some ways - how is this different from a minority in any country seeking equality wiht the majority?  What are we suggesting will be the legacy in Iraq given its sects?

These just are not new issues - now or over centuries.  War is not new either.

What is depressing is our resistance to finding, accepting, crafting, implementing and/or sustaining any kind of global, model society that can accommodate such differences.

I actually think, as I write that, that maybe that is one thing that our country - the United States - has actually, comparatively speaking, done fairly well.  But still, it's never without a cost, or a price, or losers.

I don't know Kim - how would you answer the two questions you gave me!? :) 

Jill Writes Like She Talks ( http://www.writeslikeshetalks.com )

 Hi Jillian,

Thanks fro stopping by -- and for your very helpful article as well. I should have mentioned as well that Global Voices has a special page ( http://globalvoicesonline.org/specialcoverage/2008... ) for its ongoing coverage of this crisis. 

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor ( http://blogher.org/blog/kim-pearson )|Professor Kim ( http://professorkim.blogspot.com/ )|

My understanding is that Islamism refers to a political ideology that calls for government by Islamic law and a rejection of Western or secular values. My understanding of Islamism is informed by readings of Sayyid Qtub, a guiding spirit of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, from which Hamas originated. According to this 2007 Washington Post article ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic... ), Hamas has imposed greater restrictions on its residents, moving closer to the imposition of sharia. The article also says that Hamas gained some support from residents for reducing crime, although there was frustration with them as well.

Egypt and Jordan have been walking a fine line with regard to Islamist activists for decades, because they are a threat to their own governments. It seems to me that they have a stake in strengthening Fatah's hand, but they can't afford to be seen as subservient to the west, and especially not to Israel.

I also worry about what young Palestinians are gleaning from all of this. According to Wikipedia, nearly 48 percent of the population of the Gaza Strip is between 0-14 years old. I've heard interviews with former Palestinian combatants who've said they took up arms against Israel when they kids, without really knowing what the fight was about. And I've heard similar stories from Israeli former combatants.

I don't have coherent answers about any of this. i'm trying to sort it out to. Thanks for being willing to dialog.

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor ( http://blogher.org/blog/kim-pearson )|Professor Kim ( http://professorkim.blogspot.com/ )|

Aren't you conflating a couple of things here: Israeli settler withdrawal from the Gaza settlements was in 2005, election of Hamas and Hamas' subsequent ousting of Fatah came later, right?  I'm not sure what expansion you're referencing at this time as being expansion deserving of sanctions so I look forward to you filling that in.

Hamas being elected, and Hamas being a terrorist organization are not two mutually exclusive assertions. I believe Prof. Kim's comment a little further down includes a good comment on how it is that Hamas got favor from the electorate.

Jill Writes Like She Talks ( http://www.writeslikeshetalks.com )

What happened in 1947 is irrelevent to how these people have been treated over the past couple decades, when society was supposed to have become more civilized.

Your facts as to how we the US reacted to the terrorists is a little twisted as well. Not only did we let the terrorist escape in Afghanistan, our government tried to make us believe IRAQ was involved and therefore we went to war in IRAQ.

As to the issue of these rockets not being stopped if they can manufacture them, there are such thibgs as anti missile devices, and we used them against these same rockets in the past successfully.

Now to the issue of civilian deaths, come on. The latest news article states there have been 18 Israeli deaths over the past 8 years from these rockets, and in the past 3 days over 57 civilian deaths on the palestinian side from Israels supposedly targeted missiles. And according to this news article that number is a conservative one. How many Palestinian civilians do you guess have been killed over the past 8 years of missle attacks by Israel?

And who said anything about we having to supply the necessities to the palestinians. Israel has said no one is allowed to supply them by closing the borders. That means the relief aid from around the world has been cut off, and its not our or Israels decision to decide what relief agencies can supply or when, based on when we want to close the borders to a land locked population.

Here are the quotes in case you havent read the article....

"""The UN Relief and Works Agency, which supports Palestinian refugees and
has large programmes in Gaza, said it believed at least 57 civilians
were among the dead, but described that as a conservative estimate.""""

"""""The number of rockets fired from Gaza rose yesterday to at least 60,
causing one Israeli fatality. Around 18 civilians in Israel have now
been killed by rockets fired from Gaza in the past eight years.""""""""

There are more murders in the US on a daily basis then the total deaths over the 8 year conflict, and yes its been a conflict so there will be deaths, but Israel has leveled that place so many times that its impossible for anyone to rule it with no infrastructure, and dependent on ISRAEL to allow supplies in when they feel like it.

 You will remember also that the Palestinians have generally been pawns down through the decades. Now, Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are in a state of embryonic nation building, which is complicated by a host of factors, only some of which we have discussed here. 

But I want to respond specifically to your assertion that voters in Gaza chose terrorism when they voted for Hamas in 2006. At that time, I interviewed ( http://professorkim.blogspot.com/2006/01/former-ad... )Prof. Adrien Wing, a constitutional law professor who helped draft the constitution for the Palestinian Authority. According to Wing, the election was more about voters' frustration than it was about support for Hamas' policies:

According to Wing, "Hamas won primarily because the Palestinian people
were fed up with the 10-year leadership of the Fatah party." Wing also
said that Israel's failure to negotiate with the Palestinian Authority
leadership contributed to voter discontent, but that Israel is not
responsible for the corruption and mismanagement with the PA
government. She said that she imagined that PLO founder Yasser Arafat
"must be rolling in his grave," and expressed concern about the way the
Palestinian election results will affect upcoming elections in Israel.
Another concern, she added will be whether a Hamas-led government will
seek to restrict women's rights.

 Just another data point fwiw.

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor ( http://blogher.org/blog/kim-pearson )|Professor Kim ( http://professorkim.blogspot.com/ )|

You are lost in your hatred. I stated several times that both sides need to stop fighting and go to the tables and talk. You chose to ignore that completely. Further violence only breeds more violence and hatred. Nothing justifies hatred. I feel sorry for you. I'll pray for you.

At Least my hate is directed towards Hammas who are terrorists, and not towards all the arabs in the world, as opposed to the Hammas which would kill me just for being Jewish. If that doesnt justify hatred, I dont know what does.

"The only way to stop this shooting is to kill all the Hammas activists in Gazza."

Seems your simple answer, but does not solve the problem. Your hate shows through loud and clear. Seems your morals and values are sadly misplaced with your above comments. Look in the mirror.

When you compare Fatas successes to the failures of Hamas, this isn't a really fair comparison.  Fatah has had world support since they took control of Gaza and the West Bank several years ago.  With that support came many other benefits the Hamas has not been privy to, such as outside funding, which helped to promote many of these cross board business relations you speak about.

We, as in the US, wanted to see a democracy in those two regions, and when the Hamas won the democratic elections in the Gaza strip, we and many other countries who wished for such elections, snubbed our nose at hamas, and refused any kind of aid so they could get their programs and government off the ground.  If I am not mistaken we even refused diplomatic releations to help guide them in developing a neighbor friendly democracy and economy.  All this because we viewed hamas as terrorrists, after they were voted into power by the very means we urged the palestinians to use, if we were going to recognize their government.

The Gazans have been in a no win situation since that election, because no aid was forth coming to them, for exercising their right to have a democratic election and electing the government of their choice.

The world sent the message to them loud and clear, we will help you and support you, as long as your democratic elections result in someone being elected whom we approve.  otherwise you are on your own, and will will not help you in any way what so ever. That was made very clear when Israel thumbed their nose at the world community and continued expanding jewish settlements in the disputed territories, and all the world commumity did was ask them to honor the prior agreements and stop building.  I do not recall any sanctions being put on Israel, and I do not recall them stopping the expansion.  And of course one has to wonder what impact that played on the stalled peace talks as well.

Before you criticize the situation, I suggest you learn the history of the region- The whole Israeli- Palestinian conflict started in 1947 when the UN anounced the foundation of TWO states- Israel and Palestine. Unfortunately, the arabs were not pleased with what they got, so they started a war- 5 arab countries against Israel which was not even a country. So far sound fair? What the arabs didnt imagine would happen, is that the israelis whould win them and manage to conquer much of what was supposed to be the arab country. In this historical moment, the Paelstinians lost their opporotunity for a state and with their own hands caused hundreds of thousand of Palestinians to lose their homes and become the refugees they are today. I guess you could say they brought it upon themselves.

3 years ago Israel pulled out of Gazza giving the Palsetinians an opportunity to show that they are capable of being an independant state. What did the Palestinians do? They elected Hammas, a known terror organization (I hope there is no argument here) to represent them. In other words they chose terror. It is conveniant for them to blame Israel for their situation. The hammas in these 3 years has done nothing to improve their situation. They impose terror on those who oppose them. They execute anyone who dares defy their rule. What I am trying to show you is that were dealing with people who dont think like westerners. They're brutle to anyone who doesnt agree with them, including people from their own nation. Even the arab countries want nothing to do with them- as you can see with the Egyptians attitude towards them. Once Israel pulled out of Gazze, they were no longer responsible for what went on in there. Why do we need to continue supplying their humantiarian needs? They have a border with Egypt- they can take care of them, but they didn't- because they know Hammas is an extremist terror orgamization who is just harming the arabs world image over the world. If the arabs don't want to deal with Hammas, why the hell should it be our problem?

Someone mentioned the fact that America would act differently. After 9/11 America didnt have to act against the arabs in the country because they were not responcible for the attack- Al quaeda was. And, accordingly, they bombed the hell out of afghanistan killing hundreds of innocent farmers.
I don't think compering Israel to America will do America any good, especially after their complete failure in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Next I would like to respond to the killing of innocent civilians. While Israels targets are ONLY those idendtified with Hammas activity, Hammas sets out, intetionally targeting civillian targets- busses, shopping malls, random rocket shooting which could fall anywhere.... This is a huge difference. Hammas (and HIzbullah in Lebanon) use the innocent population as a canaflouge to their activity- the launch their missiles from densly populated areas so that if Israel wants to shoot back, they will hurt innocent people. How low can you go? Putting your own people at risk? Is Israel supposed to sit back and do nothing, becaue the Hammas uses inhumane tactics which put innocent woman and children at risk? Israel always, and in this operation as well, targets very specifically, and only targets which are realted to terror organizations. Innocent people are hurtm but war is war. The majority of those killed in this operation are militants and not hundreds of innocent civilliand as someone mentioned.

Regarding Israel being able to stop the Kassam firing- thats simply not true. The Kassam is a primitive weapon which can be manufactured with basic supplies. Israel has no way of stopping these supplies from entering gazza, and therefore is not able to stop the rockets from being launched. The only way to stop this shooting is to kill all the Hammas activists in Gazza. 

And as to the comparrison to WWII, i will not even dignify that with an answer. I think any second grader with basic morals and values can see the difference between the greman killing machine, gassing people by the millions, and a conflict in which both sides are active.

Before you criticize the situation, I suggest you learn the history of the region- The whole Israeli- Palestinian conflict started in 1947 when the UN anounced the foundation of TWO states- Israel and Palestine. Unfortunately, the arabs were not pleased with what they got, so they started a war- 5 arab countries against Israel which was not even a country. So far sound fair? What the arabs didnt imagine would happen, is that the israelis whould win them and manage to conquer much of what was supposed to be the arab country. In this historical moment, the Paelstinians lost their opporotunity for a state and with their own hands caused hundreds of thousand of Palestinians to lose their homes and become the refugees they are today. I guess you could say they brought it upon themselves.

3 years ago Israel pulled out of Gazza giving the Palsetinians an opportunity to show that they are capable of being an independant state. What did the Palestinians do? They elected Hammas, a known terror organization (I hope there is no argument here) to represent them. In other words they chose terror. It is conveniant for them to blame Israel for their situation. The hammas in these 3 years has done nothing to improve their situation. They impose terror on those who oppose them. They execute anyone who dares defy their rule. What I am trying to show you is that were dealing with people who dont think like westerners. They're brutle to anyone who doesnt agree with them, including people from their own nation. Even the arab countries want nothing to do with them- as you can see with the Egyptians attitude towards them. Once Israel pulled out of Gazze, they were no longer responsible for what went on in there. Why do we need to continue supplying their humantiarian needs? They have a border with Egypt- they can take care of them, but they didn't- because they know Hammas is an extremist terror orgamization who is just harming the arabs world image over the world. If the arabs don't want to deal with Hammas, why the hell should it be our problem?

Someone mentioned the fact that America would act differently. After 9/11 America didnt have to act against the arabs in the country because they were not responcible for the attack- Al quaeda was. And, accordingly, they bombed the hell out of afghanistan killing hundreds of innocent farmers.
I don't think compering Israel to America will do America any good, especially after their complete failure in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Next I would like to respond to the killing of innocent civilians. While Israels targets are ONLY those idendtified with Hammas activity, Hammas sets out, intetionally targeting civillian targets- busses, shopping malls, random rocket shooting which could fall anywhere.... This is a huge difference. Hammas (and HIzbullah in Lebanon) use the innocent population as a canaflouge to their activity- the launch their missiles from densly populated areas so that if Israel wants to shoot back, they will hurt innocent people. How low can you go? Putting your own people at risk? Is Israel supposed to sit back and do nothing, becaue the Hammas uses inhumane tactics which put innocent woman and children at risk? Israel always, and in this operation as well, targets very specifically, and only targets which are realted to terror organizations. Innocent people are hurtm but war is war. The majority of those killed in this operation are militants and not hundreds of innocent civilliand as someone mentioned.

Regarding Israel being able to stop the Kassam firing- thats simply not true. The Kassam is a primitive weapon which can be manufactured with basic supplies. Israel has no way of stopping these supplies from entering gazza, and therefore is not able to stop the rockets from being launched. The only way to stop this shooting is to kill all the Hammas activists in Gazza. 

And as to the comparrison to WWII, i will not even dignify that with an answer. I think any second grader with basic morals and values can see the difference between the greman killing machine, gassing people by the millions, and a conflict in which both sides are active.

Wonderful post, and thank you for mentioning my post on the Twitter discussion...I tend to agree that the use of the #gaza hashtag frames the discussion, but the growth from yesterday (when #2states, #israel, #sderot, etc where still being used and there were less than 20 people using #gaza) has been enormous.  Having everyone in a centralized location for what is sometimes healthy debate is a good thing.

To look at the situation realistically.

First of all I have not been aware that Hamas has been bombing the cities day and night for years, and if that were true then I would be offering a different opinion.

Its my understanding the rockets they pocess are no real threat to any Isreali city, and instead fall in the rural country on some farm land etc.

But that isnt the point either.  Keeping an entire population repressed, and while doing so, going against the world, and building new settlements in the disputed territory, only leads to more desperate acts by the extreme militants.  I just read where all the hospitals in the west bank were completely without supplies before the latest round of hostilities, and yet the blockade continued for what a month now?  And you do not think these people are at some point going to say enough is enough and fight back, even with their inferior weaponry?

I have read over and over, how ssuccessful the 6 month cease fire had been.  I assume that Hamas was a part of that successful endeavor as well right?  Sure their were rogue attacks on Israelis during that time, and each time there was an attack, the entire palestinian population payed the price for these rogue acts.

We all know no government can stop individual terrorist attacks, and Hamas is no different, just as the US or Isreal can not stop individual attacks.  They will go on past my and your life time, all over the world.  But you can not punish an entire population because of them.  

What is hypocritical. is to blame the other side, when your own government is causing more pain and suffering to a large mass then any rocket launched by the palestinians.  What is hypocritical is when the world told Isreal to stop building new settlements in this disputed territory, and Isreal boldly went ahead building more jewish settlements anyway.  And they want to find a peaceful resolution?  As some have stated, a peaceful resolution to them means one on their terms where they come out the winner all around.

The old arguement that their actions are to protect their citizens is a little old, when every time there is a minor incident, they over due it and cause the suffering of hundreds of thousands.  That is going beyond concern over protection of your citizens. 

Roy,

I feel for both sides, there are eight year olds in Palastine also, don't they count? Don't they have the same fears from a superior force? It's sort of like David and Goalith. The have's and the have nots. I agree with one thing for the childrens sake on both sides, they need to come to the table and talk. It may be difficult, but these bombings by both sides, solve nothing and only invite more bombing.

No one likes bombs on their head. No one.

 Israel's destruction? Hell we have groups calling for the destruction of the USA.  Words!

That's what they have, words. You have a far superior force, what next, nuke them?

Yes, counting the dead and disportionate force is a factor. What if they were the superior force? What then?

So before you go calling everyone a hypocrite, think.

I was just reading up on Telhami - he was born in the Druze village of Osfia - when I was in Israel in August, we spent a late morning through lunch/mid-afternoon there.  Telhami is a Christian Arab according to this information. ( http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people/Telhami/te... ) But growing up in that village etc. really gives an interesting insight to his perspectives.

JillWrites Like She Talks ( http://www.writeslikeshetalks.com )

Looks to me like two little children fighting. He started it, no, he started it. Grow up both of you and get to the table and start talking this through. But we'll only hear sorry excuses blaming each other. It's both of your fault, and the sooner you admit it, the sooner you can go to the tables.

Talking worked with the IRA and it can work for these folks also.

It's sad to see the disportionate bombing by Israel in response to rocket attacks. Granted, no one wants rockets fired at them,  but Israel has TWO dead and about 10 wounded vs more than 300 dead and over 600 wounded.

Hey Israel, if you are trying to stop the bombing, this isn't the way to do it, you are just inviting more rockets.  And Hamas, throwing rockets at Israel is not the way to go either.

You both need to sit down and admit jointly you BOTH are at fault....period! Then let the healing process begin.

As an American, I feel we need to "butt out" and let these folks handle their own problems, but that is not going to happen because of powerful Jewish people in the US. 

Has our government the guts to say to Israel, stop, go to the tables, or are we going to bend to powerful people in the US.

Now that might sound anti-Israel, but far from it.  I want these folks to talk and not be swayed or provocated by outside sources. I think Israel and Hamas can sort it out and not depend on outside sources, whomever they may be.

If Israel cares so much obout the normal everyday  Palestinian, they had better let the Red Cross and the rest do their humanitarian mission. As it stands, Israel (Jewish people) are doing no better than they were treated in WWII. Look back on history Israel to your own suffering and look what you are doing now. There is no difference!

JMHO,

Wolfhoundcop

Kim, one of the reports this morning with Shibley Telhami ( http://www.brookings.edu/experts/t/telhamis.aspx ), who is often heard on Diane Rehm regarding Middle East matters, talked a lot about some of the issues I mention - among others. People can listen here. ( http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?story... )

JillWrites Like She Talks ( http://www.writeslikeshetalks.com )

You are all soooo hypocrite...

I wonder if the city you're live in was bombed day and night with a terroristic weapons such as these for years....  what would you do? 
what would you do?
You're going to the mall - Alarm, start running, looking for shelter. You're going to sleep - Alarm, start running,

looking for shelter, etc. etc. Our children have fear in their eyes for 8 years. more than 5000 rockets have

fallen on our cities, and you want to count how many dead are from both sides?
when someone comes to my home and start shooting at me - what do you expect me to do?
We left Gaza 3 years ago. since then the Hamas, a militant, islamic group, who do not recognize Israel, who

calls for Israel's ditruction, shot rockets at our cities.
What would YOU have done???
Hypocrites!  Look in the mirror, for god sake!

Roy

After having the CNN cover of the situation about and in Gaza and after hearing the Israeli ambassador to the UN interview it occurred to me to wonder; in the years in which those rockets were fired on Israel -  how many Israelis including kids were killed as result and how many Palestinian including kids were in fact killed by Israel in Gaza during that same time span ??

Of course isreal has never had intentions of allowing the palestinians to live in democracy.  The arguements I read justifying this action really hold no merit.

Isreal has repressed these people how many years now?  That action alone will over time fuel hatred.  But should a country deprive an entire population necessities because of some bad apples?

Every time a rocket is launched, or a suicide bomber enters Isreal and blows them selves up, the land locked border is closed and all supplies are denied entry into the area.  basic necessities such as food, medicine and electric power are denied to the entire population, and they are not allowed to defend themselves, by what ever means they use, whether it be a rocket or suicide bomber?

Would we allow this type of behavior in a country like the United states?  Every time we suffer a terrorist attack of some type, lock down an entire population, and starve them?  I do not think we would.

Then Isreal justifiews these lock downs and border closings by saying it is protecting its citizens.  Doesn't these attacks by the palestinians excalate every time the borders are locked down and people are starved and denied basic necessities?  So are the attacks merely the palestinians very limited ability to attempt to protect their population.

The palestinians in this region will never be free, as long as they are land locked by a country, that sees the answers to all their problems lies in closing the border, so over one million people suffer for the actions of a few.  Until their is an international presence at the border crossings, that can be fair, and make sure the borders remain open, so necessities can travel freely into this region, there will be no real peace. 

Isreal has the best defense system in the area(provided by the US), as well as offensive capabilities like no other, and they can not stop the occassional rogue rockets that according to all news accounts really do not threaten their population. In 150 rocket launches over the past 3 days 2 Israelis have been killed?  They do not care it appears, about stopping these rocket launches, because that would take away their excuse to maintain control over the mass population of palestinians, something they are not willing to relinquish.

You can not convince me that in a more civilized country, like the US, we would take the same actions against mass populations, every time a bomber or mass murderer took to our streets.  We experience it all the time as well, and do not subject mass populations to the same sanctions Isreal has imposed on palestinians for years and years now.  Imagine the outcry had we rounded up all the Arabs in our country after 9/11, put them all in one location, and then sealed off that area from all humantarian support every time we felt like it, because another Arab on the loose killed one of our citizens. 

Israel's attack was "invited" by Hammas' policy of rocketing Israeli cities. I guess that if rockets were launched from say Cuba to Florida on a daily basis, the US government would not have waited for years, but would have retaliated with full force and not "proportionaly"...  Hammas is a terror organization with a declared policy of war against Israel which they call "Jeehad" ( a holy war ).They don't really care for the civil population under their rule. They only use them as a tool to achieve their long term target of destructing the Israeli state and sending the Jews back to the diaspora. As the Hammas leaders understand only force, I think that Israel has acted wisely and should continue and hammer on their heads till they get the message. Hopefuly, the innocent population will also understand that this terror regime acts against their own interests and revert to the PLO who are negotiating with Israel for a just solution of two states for the two peoples, which is the only viable solution to the conflict.    

And that's really all they are but I thank you for asking for them.

1. What would it take to persuade Israel to abandon the blockade?

I'm no expert. I look to what they say they want and what I expect reasonable outside actors should pressure Israel to want.  But beyond that - who can say for sure - permanent security I suspect is one of the ultimate goals.  

So -I think we need to think: what must accompany the effort to persuade them to stop the blockade so that they (Israel) will feel a reasonable level of confidence that suicide bombing will not recommence and rocket launches will not continue, and THEN, as has been done before, outline a longterm roadmap to a two-state solution, although, as I've written before, Israeli Arabs actually do not agree on that - they repeatedly indicate in polls that more than 95% of them say they'd stay in an Israeli state rather than live under Palestinian rule.  So, this too is another issue (which get challenging in times like right now because the issue of nationality and identity come into play).

See - here's part of what is so confounding: Israel pulled out of Gaza more than three years ago and look how unstable it's been since then.  The West Bank, meanwhile, under Fatah, while still not an acceptably autonomous state, at least has actual business and other relations with Israel.  Now, some Israelis might want to argue that the security fence gives the comfort - but I don't buy that for a minute.  But back to Gaza for a minute - don't you ever wonder: what do they want? What do they actually want? I don't know what that is - unless it is indeed the annihilation of Israeli Jews and control and power over all the land that is both Israel and the West Bank, by Hamas.  Fatah, I believe, has made strides in what it says and does, to indicate that that is not what it seeks.  Hamas however has not disspelled this sense to the best of my knowledge.  That is, to me, obviously, very problematic.

The Hamas-Fatah issue is a real political football and nightmare too - not even so much for Israel as for the Arabs (I use this term to encompass the Muslim, Christian and Druze living in the West Bank and Gaza - no doubt you've read some of the stories of how Christian Arabs are being persecuted by Muslims in these areas).

Anyway - another element is the utter lack of constructive support from other Arab countries to the peace process or to the stabilization of Gaza - under any government (Hamas or Fatah) and the West Bank.

Now - in Jordan, Syria and Egypt, even in Lebanon and possibly Saudi Arabia, there are influentials who could make an impact.  But Iran's relation to Hamas and Syria's relation to Hizbollah is yet another diad coming out of this hub that is, as you say, The Holy Land.

SO...when wondering what could persuade Israel to stop the blockade, I would have to imagine the persuasion would involve these elements:

1. Promises with identified steps of how Israel's security will be assured

2. An appeal from the humanitarian plight: there ARE Israelis, Arabs and Jews, who voice anger with the Israeli gov't over the inhumane conditions and actions.  They are not even that difficult to find - esp. on the Internet.

So perhaps what my thoughts lead to is some kind of UN force or other collaborative effort.

Believe it or not, I think strong intervention from the U.S. is not necessarily in anyone's interest.  If we want something lasting, I think that solutions MUST come from the countries in that region.

In some ways, Kim, I see parallels to Zimbabwe - the African Union's weakness is no more evident than in the failure to control and remove from power Mugabe.  The Arab Union is equally ineffectual.

Ok - there's so much more we could discuss on this one question but I'm going to work over the second one now! Feel free to keep this one going though.

2. "And is there any way that Al-Fatah or other anti-Islamist Palestinian opposition groups can gain any traction?"

Ok - this is going to sound unbelievable, but I don't use Islamist so much - so when you use it, does it mean extremists primarily?  It doesn't mean people who are against Islam per se, right?

I went and read the Wikipedia entry so for now, I'll go with the understanding that it's more of an extremist form of Islam follower - PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong.

So I think I answered this a bit in the previous paragraphs: Jordan and Egypt, and in the past even Lebanon, did indeed have a foothold with Fatah and less extreme elements within the Arab population in the Holy Land. But this proxy problem is decades old, the deterioration of the living conditions in Gaza and the mixing up of it constantly with the instigations of the Gazans and the retaliation of the Israelis makes it so $&%^@ muddled. Pardon my French.

I'm somewhat pie in the sky, but I saw with my own eyes while I was in Israel in August and I heard from Israeli Arabs and I've read multiple stories since then in places like Marketplace and NYT of successful business and cultural exchanges with the West Bank and Israeli populations.

I would say that we must build on those - those successes that show that when you have even a modicum of stability in a ruling government (Fatah in the case of the West Bank), what you can achieve.

BUT - the big but - you have to be achieving what the population WANTS to achieve - and this is where things fall apart again, in my opinion: What do Gazans WANT?  They elected Hamas - what did they expect to get from Hamas? Have they gotten that?

Israel is not off the hook for its inhumane acts just because Hamas fails to do what it should be doing to build a nation within what they may want to be a different nation in the future.  HOWEVER, Gaza and Hamas should not be allowed to be let off the hook either for their failures or inaction along those fronts - i.e., see Fatah and the West Bank and what they've achieved, relative to Gaza.

So - where is the foothold? I would think in the successes that can be pointed to now, in the Arab Union, in relations with Jordan, maybe Egypt.

I wrote in my diaries in 1985, after living in Israel for a year, that that entire region is one big damn pawn, Kim.  And I meant it.  What is so incredibly sad is how little that has changed.

Thanks. Looking forward to your ideas.

Jill Writes Like She Talks ( http://www.writeslikeshetalks.com )

This is very disturbing as Hamas does not have the ability, from a technological standpoint, to aim their rockets. They take shots in the dark and Israeli in response launches  air strikes( no porportionality here) which have now killed more than 280 Palestinians, injured hundreds beyond that .

I've heard the word "disproportionate" used, this attack was not proportionate and not acceptable from what I've read and heard so far.

I saw Tzipi Livni this morning on television and I was really appalled at her attitude of "this on on Hamas". You can't carry out an air strike killing and injuring hundreds of innocents, call it collateral damage and blame Hamas without holding yourself accountable. This was barbaric.

cooper

 thanks, Jill -- I got the link to the Global Voices post on twitter right after I initially posted -- that's why it's appended at the end.

I spent a lot of time thinking about how to frame this post so that the pain and anger on all sides is fairly represented. It's hard to get it right. I thing the Gaza hashtag makes sense because that's who where the conflict is centered right now, but that is not to negate the fear that Israelis live with. 

Thanks for your informed comments and additional links.

 One of the problems with all of this violence, of course, is that it plays into the hands of hardliners on both sides. 

What do you think will persuade Israel to abandon the blockade? And is there any way that Al-Fatah or other anti-Islamist Palestinian opposition groups can gain any traction?

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor ( http://blogher.org/blog/kim-pearson )|Professor Kim ( http://professorkim.blogspot.com/ )|

Kim,

I think it's critical to mention that this latest action by Israel is very much connected to the end of the ceasefire and to the continuation of rockets being lobbed into Israel from Gaza.  

The blockade by Israel is wrong. Any denial of humanitarian aid by Israel or the support of such denial, by anyone or any state, is wrong.  Let me be clear.

But I also feel strongly that no report on the absolute tragedy unfolding and being perpetuated as we write in Gaza and Israel is complete without identifying how, even in the last two weeks, we got here.

Some excellent coverage of the devastation can also be found at Israelity Bites ( http://israelitybites.blogspot.com/2008/12/israeli... ) (I picked that up from blogger BFP ( http://flipfloppingjoy.com/2008/12/27/witness/ ) who tweeted about it.) Adele Nieves tweeted about Global Voices review of how Twitter is serving as a good place to follow ( http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/12/28/the-globa... ) what's going on too because of the use of hashtags like #gaza and #gazawarofwords which is following media bias.  The one concern someone voiced at Global Voices, which I agree with, is that the hashtag title itself frames the incidents - in other words, why not an #israel or #sderot hashtag. 

Frankly, I go with the gaza hashtag because it's short and more identifiable - but I did have a similar reaction when I first saw it.

Anyway - thank you for posting this entry - it's necessary.

FYI, J Street has already posted a petition ( http://www.jstreet.org/campaigns/gaza-stop-violenc... ) calling for an US-led ceasefire.

Jill Writes Like She Talks ( http://www.writeslikeshetalks.com )