Oprah Asks Are You Prepared to Buy Teen Daughter a Vibrator?

I got my first vibrator when I turned 17. It was a Jack Rabbit -- a present from my two best friends for my birthday. Up until that point, I'd made do with my hands ("when I was your age, we walked to school in the snow, read the news on paper, and masturbated with our hands!").

I knew I was in control of my body with or without the Jack Rabbit, and I learned far more about different pleasure points because I was using my hand -- much more than I might have were I relying on vibration alone. Mind you, the Jack Rabbit incorporates a full dildo, so you're looking at vaginal exploration as well, but what if it had been a Pocket Rocket? Even a one-speed deal has far more stimulation than a young girl needs (and I don't mean that because they're unprepared, I mean that because younger women tend to be far more sensitive). Where is the getting-to-know-your-body in zapping yourself to orgasm in two or three minutes?

I wouldn't do it. I'd have the masturbation talk and importance of pleasure talk and the careful "forever may not be forever" talk (God help me not be such a cynical asshole by the time this one comes around, I'd hate to be some kid's Miss Havisham v2.0).

Or worse -- my grandmother used to warn not to frown or smile too much because of wrinkles. I worry I'd tell my daughters not to rely too much on vibrating stimulation because excess exposure leads to desensitization.

Horror stories women tell.

Thanks for the resources! :)

Mrs4444
Half-Past Kissin' Time ( http://www.halfpastkissintime.com ) & Mrs.4444 Cooks ( http://mrs4444cooks.blogspot.com )

I posted my comment before reading yours, but I totally agree. Masturbation is a private thing that everyone discovers on their own. Certainly don't tell your kids that it's wrong or dirty, but there's another extreme too. I'm not a prude for thinking that I have no place giving my (hypothetical) 14 year old daughter a vibrator and I'm not going to feel bad for being uncomfortable with the idea. It's just a very private, intimate thing.

I was comfortable talking to my mom about most things too, but I could never imagine talking about masturbation. I don't think that's a bad thing. The aim that Dr. Berman was talking about seemed to be to make sure your teenage girl is confident, in control of her body and not going to seek acceptance from boys by being pressured into sex. My mom, and you, must have found another way to do that because that's certainly how I was and how I'm sure your daughters were. :)

First off, I don't have kids and I probably won't ever have them, so I don't want to seem presumptuous. But I'm also 20 years old and not far away from being a kid/teen myself so I think I can speak with a reasonable perspective on a touchy issue like this one.

My mom did a great job talking to me about feelings and making sure I had a realistic view on love and relationships, and let me know I could ask her about anything I wanted. But as far as the practical aspects of things went, i.e. protection from pregnancy and STDs, she didn't cover it, and I quite frankly didn't need my mother for that. Perhaps we have better sex-ed in Canada or something, but I received lots of reliable information from school about safe sex. I also learned about it in magazines like Seventeen and the other teen magazines my mother bought for me. It was on TV. It was in pamphlets at the doctor's office. It was on the internet. It was in books at the library. It was quite frankly in my face everywhere I went. Lack of reliable information is not an issue here.

Of course, teen pregnancy and STDs certainly ARE an issue in my area of the world, but I'm telling you--it's not a lack of education or information. Kids know that if they don't use a condom correctly bad things can happen, they know about birth control, they know the morning after pill is available if something went wrong, they know they can get tested for STDs, etc. If there is an issue with information it's that kids are so oversaturated with it that they're not paying attention anymore.

The problem is what has always been the problem with teenagers: they think they're invincible. Something like getting pregnant, or contracting HIV may happen to other people but it won't happen to THEM. Laziness is a factor too. And then there's the issue of girls purposely getting pregnant, which is happening all over the place, but of course that's another blog post and a couple of books on top of that.

Now, as far as masturbation, well, same thing. My mom didn't talk about masturbating or encourage me to do it, but the magazines I read, the information I read on the Internet, and the TV shows I saw sure did. I don't think my mom could have told me anything about masturbation or vibrators at 14 or 15 that I didn't already know. It would have been a totally pointless exercise in awkwardness.

It's all well and good to go on Oprah and talk about giving your daughter a vibrator or to write a blog post about it. But I fully agree with the commenter Atena: get over your ego as a parent and realize that you don't control the information your daughter gets nor how she thinks about it. Someone else is likely teaching your daughter about masturbation and vibrators and loving her body as we speak. She'd probably be mortified if you did it and the conversation wouldn't accomplish anything. For Pete's sake don't needlessly embarrass your kids.

Wow again.  On just so many levels.

I just came to this thread from the bump it got today and I am really glad I did, it is so thought provoking.

My first reaction is shock at how much passion (no pun intended) this subject induced.  I can see it being somewhat controversial and arguable, but I am truly surprised by the level of contentiousness the discussion rose to.  That is rather disappointing actually.  Sexuality and reproductive responsibility are such crucial subjects for our society.  Hearing each other and listening to different points of view can be so valuable to our growth as a culture.  'Cause we're not doing such a spectacular job right now, are we?  

Then there is my personal reaction.  Personal, as in right for ME, not something you have to take and apply to your own life.  And not such an outlandish point of view that I am likely to do any great harm to the world by it.

Personally, by my own standards and the boundaries that exist in our little family, graphically discussing the merits of masturbation is not what would work for us.

I have been a single mother since I was widowed when my four children were young.  I discussed sex with my sons (the older two) as best I could.  They were around when their sisters were born at home.  They grew up with me nursing their siblings.  It was all very matter-of-fact. I was a childbirth educator, comfortable with the subjct in general, but I discussed sexuality mostly with adult students, not my own teenage sons.  They were not comfortable.  I was clumsy.  But we muddled through without too much damage done. Love, humor and good intentions go a long way.  :)

The boys were ten years older, so by the time the subject came up with the girls it was just the three of us.  They also had grown up around nursing mothers and birthing.  I believed that modesty was form of manners in one's household, but that did not mean the body was hidden or  shameful in anyway.  We were comfortable in talking about reproduction, menstruation and they tell me now ( they are grown women, 21 and 23) they always felt they could ask me anything.

Exploring our sexuality can be a joy, but I feel it is a private and personal one.  I really believe that my daughters can fully enjoy their sexuality without having had anything graphically modelled by me.  Sex is a pleasure.  It is not too far of a stretch to consider that sex with oneself can be likened to other pleasurable things, a bubble bath, an ice cream sundae, a movie.  I don't presume to tell my girls how to enjoy those things, why would masturbation be any different?  Some things you have explore on your own and make your own mind up about.

Even as I type that I can see giving any of those things for a birthday or holiday gift, but not a vibrator.  Maybe I am talking our of both sides of my mouth.  But I prefer to think it is because there is just a line between public pleasure and private pleasure.  Not shameful.  Private.

So another 'wow'.  I did not think I would have so much to say about masturbation on the World Wide Web. lol  But there you have it.

My final two cents: chill out everyone!  Be respectful.  Listen.  We have a lot to learn from one another. :)

Marie

www.nourishourselves.blogspot.com ( http://www.nourishourselves.blogspot.com )

www.theshorebookworm.blogspot.com ( http://www.theshorebookworm.blogspot.com )

Teens are contracting AIDS and other sexually-transmitted diseases because they have unprotected sex and don't have the information they need.  Thank you, Bill.

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ).

Basically, people that don't educate their kids about sex are throwing them to the wolves.  "The Streets" are just waiting for more people to have fun with and/or take advantage of.

It might have made sense (probably not, though) back in the 1950's to NOT educate your kids, because all of the media was controlled.  There was no "cable television" or sex sites on the internet or MTV and BET's latest "Sex on the dance floor" videos for kids to watch and become either interested in or curious about.

At this point in time, whatever you don't teach your kids, they're gonna learn in the street.  You're better off feeling uncomfortable and talking to them NOW than finding out your kid's pregnant or got some other kid pregnant a few months or years from now.

~ Bill ( http://billcammack.com/ )
I blog at billcammack.com ( http://billcammack.com/ )

( http://billcammack.com )

Wow, you made me laugh so hard, because I had this booklet!  My parents left the 5-8 year old one around for me when i was 5, but I had already read the one for 9-12 year olds, I think in the doctor's office during an appointment.  It wasn't very informative, but it also wasn't awful.

We have something else in common - being embarrassing. I recall my mom when I got my period, saying "Do you need me to show you how to put in a tampon?".  I rolled my eyes and said super sarcastically, "Moommmm! I'm 15 years old, I sure as hell know by now how to put things into my vagina!"    Which was hilarious, but in retrospect, I regret it because it was my mom's attempt to at least talk with me about that kind of stuff and I instantly shot it down with heavy sarcasm!   

-----------------
Liz Henry ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... )
lizzard@bookmaniac.net ( http://liz-henry.blogspot.com/ )
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( http://www.blogher.com/blog/liz-henry )

I agree there has got to be some way to mention as a parent that masturbation is a good thing and possible to do different ways, without being creepy about it.  One possible way to get the idea across is to get your kid a tasteful catalogue of some kind. Good Vibrations or something of that sort would get the idea across.  I wonder if they make, or would consider making, booklets that are a combination of sex ed and catalogue for teenagers, that is as non-embarrassing as possible?

-----------------
Liz Henry ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... )
lizzard@bookmaniac.net ( http://liz-henry.blogspot.com/ )
Contributing Editor, World and Latin America
( http://www.blogher.com/blog/liz-henry )

I get pretty passionate, can you tell? ;) I didn't mean to imply that questioning the fear was invalid. If I seemed to, I apologise. It just suddenly struck me that we seemed to be 'siding against mothers' (including Gayle) and stuff like that sets off my alarms.

Tough....um, stuff, these isms. Never quite sure where they're hiding. ;)

Thanks for the discussion, all. I've found it very interesting. :)

http://www.blogher.com/blog/she-who

I can see you have a lot on your mind. I bolded the last sentence of my response so you'd see that I get what you're saying, I just think it's not fair to say that the questioning of the fear is invalid.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ): BlogHer CE and NOLA Lit Examiner ( http://nola101.com ). Blogs @ WSATA ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ) & UMBOP ( http://urbanpsalms.blogspot.com ).

are nervous about sex, and about talking about sex. Look how they're held responsible, even by you.

Oprah's a great example. She wasn't sexually assaulted because no one gave her a vibrator. She wasn't even sexually assaulted because no one gave her perpetrator a vibrator. She was assaulted as an act of violence and control. She was NINE.

I'm all about talking to kids about sex. I was doing the condom on a carrot thing when we were still referring to AIDS as "that gay cancer" , and believe me, darn few of us were discussing it at all. I was trying to get funding for AIDS during the Reagan administration, with the Gay Rights National Lobby. When the poster above talked about the college class with the speculum, my first reaction was 'I wonder if that was me.'

But my question is why these fears are 'unreasonable'. I personally think parents aren't scared enough, sometime. People think "Well, everyone does it, it must be okay." People think, "They're telling them at school." People think, "I'm going to sound stupid." They're scared about the wrong things. Good education doesn't belittle their fears, but we have to keep it in perspective. It's not a bow to patriarchy to acknowledge that mom's aren't calling the shots on some of this, anymore than it's a bow to racism to acknowledge its impact.

In the world we're in, letting the world outside tell your kids about sex is stupid, and potentially dangerous. So the fear is appropriate, and ordinate, and may be poorly assigned. But moms have insight, as well as fear. Beyond the idea "talk to your kids about sex" are a million tiny details about each child, how they learn, and when. When you hear moms expressing reservation about an approach and it's supposedly all about "fear" I'm concerned that the energy for that is not respectful of Motherwit.

It's a line to walk.

http://www.blogher.com/blog/she-who

We're talking about this in terms of Oprah because that's who most recently put the conversation on the front page and in our living rooms.  The survey her magazine conducted with Seventeen Magazine and which I linked to in the post is another indication that mothers are not talking to their daughters as much as they think or anybody else may think that they are.   

But fear of the talk is not restricted to the newest generation;
three-quarters of the moms in the survey said they never had the talk
with their own mothers either. 
(See story about study here. ( http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Parenting/story?id=73204... ))

I don't think it matters that Gayle's children are grown or that Oprah does not have children. Oprah, the victim of childhood sexual assault, can have an opinion on talking to children just like anyone else because at one point she herself was child.  Dr. Berman has sons but she is a female and a doctor who's done research.  

But research ( http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-1266204351.html ) and training aside, the people who watched the show saw the fear on the faces of mothers in the audience, not just fear, but strong resistance.  Sometimes it's good to challenge fears. If folks hadn't challenged fear we'd still be in caves. 

I don't think its patriarchal to wonder if these mothers, including me, are being unreasonable, especially in light of the growing number of teenage pregnancies and AIDs cases.  I'm thinking of the saying that "Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different resutls." 

If it's fear that's holding mothers back from speaking to their children about sex or helping their daughters to value and know more about their own bodies, then mothers need to address that fear and the root of it. 

In fact, it could be argued that the patriarchal view of sex conditions us to be afraid to talk about sex; consequently, to assume fear of the sex talk is reasonable is itself a bow to patriarchy.

We may very well have to say that when it comes to sex it's not "Mother knows best" nor "Father  knows best." Many parents seem to be woefully uncomfortable about talking over sex with children of both genders and that discomfort appears to be doing us all a disservice. 

All that said, I do think that we should question "experts" and not assume they know what's best for our own children.   

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ): BlogHer CE and NOLA Lit Examiner ( http://nola101.com ). Blogs @ WSATA ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ) & UMBOP ( http://urbanpsalms.blogspot.com ).

Can't get off so easy. Don't be surprised if a relative's child ask you a big sex question and suddenly you're at a loss of words.  LOL.  Somebody's persistent kid is gonna getcha.

Thank you, Maria, and I hope you saw what I said about you under Noblesse Oblige ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com/2009/04/noblesse-oblig... ) at my WSATA blog.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ): BlogHer CE and NOLA Lit Examiner ( http://nola101.com ). Blogs @ WSATA ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ) & UMBOP ( http://urbanpsalms.blogspot.com ).

and I didn't know she was a mother, until this post.

 So I read up on her. She has two grown children, one of them a daughter. Oprah, as we know, has dogs, and Dr. Berman has 3 small sons, oldest about 11.

I think it's really interesting that our assumption seems to be "mothers are unreasonably fearful about sex talk" and the other folks are right, rather than "Gee. Pretty patriarchal to be ignoring the voice of mothers who might reasonably be expected to KNOW (as you point out) that these issues are tricky." ;)

http://www.blogher.com/blog/she-who

And I should have made clear that I understood you were saying that was an interpretation some people took away. I think you are dead on in that interpretation - some are focusing on the fear for sure.

And talking about this in the abstract is nothing like having a kid staring at you one on one.

And that thought is why part of me is glad to never have had to be the one with a child staring me down. Much respect to you parents, aunts, uncles, and friends who have been the ones to handle that responsibility. :)

BlogHer Contributing Editor ( http://www.blogher.com/blog/maria-niles )
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do not teach subjects all at once, else school would be for one day and done.

I'm pretty sure you grasped my intent was literally not to teach everything in one conversation.

I would hope this would be more than a one time conversation, that some level of discourse would occasionally take place. Ultimately it is healthy for parent and child.

I'm also not trying to frame this in exclusivity. We are talking on one element of sex, but please do not mistake that to mean this is the totality of my advocacy, it is one of many.

Since this is the thread topic, it is what I've confined and focused on with my comments and writing. 

I do believe it plays a role when one ultimately partners. Knowing our bodies, knowing what gives us pleasure, what we prefer, we pass on to our partner, and hopefully they do the same. Too often we partner and one or the other or both are figuring it all out, remaining silent, etc. Strong and confident young women who know what they like is a nice way to enter into a relationship with another, of whatever gender.

Would I mention vibrators? That depends on the flow of conversation, but I'd bet the conversation might well get there, sooner or later. If it doesn't. it doesn't. When we converse, we are most often in the interactive flow of discussion, sharing, responding, listening, talking. 

Finally, of course it isn't about us, and do not think I've implied that, but if they asked, I'd answer. I'll reiterate again for clarity. I am big on our individual uniqueness and diversity, and I have no wish to impose me on my children (nor did I on anything, and was quite adamant on my youngun having the final say in whether she had an insulin pump, even when she was 10 years of age.)

llhaesa ( http://llhaesa.org/ )

I'm not saying that Berman advises a how-to-talk, which is why I put the word "seems" in bold in the comment to which you refer. 

I'm saying that the imagery I think mothers get in their heads at the mention of talking about masturbation with or without vibrators (in their heads) scares them to death. Once somebody says something that scares us and we visualize that fear, we tend to tune out whatever else they say and focus on the fear.

She didn't mention the "word" incest either, but I suspect our moral apprehensions about incest make us nervous about talking about sex with our children in general.

But thank you for clarifying that she didn't say go over positions or to present a "how to masturbate" lesson to the child. 

The problem for parents is that many of us know that once you open a topic with a child it's usually followed by questions like "why" and "how," and so the parental mind goes there before he/she ever has the conversation.  That's why parents are tossing reproductive books at their kids and sprinting for the door. They dread the question and answer segment of "the talk."

I think Gayle is perfect example of what I mean. I think her mind has gone from opening up the conversation to thinking of the scariest scenario because more than likely she's uncomfortable with sexuality discussions, as you suggest and which was clear on the show too. Terrifiiieduh!

And talking about this in the abstract is nothing like having a kid staring at you one on one.

I probably should have clarified in the comment why I was stressing the word "seems" but as you already know, some people think I explain too much. :-)  But I'm thinking pure parental fear here.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ): BlogHer CE and NOLA Lit Examiner ( http://nola101.com ). Blogs @ WSATA ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ) & UMBOP ( http://urbanpsalms.blogspot.com ).

For me, I already discussed what I teach.

Teach reproduction. Teach response.

Listen to kids and discuss their views on relationships, peer issues, etc.

When I talk about socialization, I am speaking, directly, about the differing expectations and roles for children and adults, and for teens, who are in between. I said that some of those things are normed by our society, and some are more universal and biological in origin.

So what I'm discussing is, "How does a child see this? What questions does a child have? How is it best to answer those questions, without imposing my baggage, in the form of an agenda or anything else, on the child?"

You say, "We teach about everything from an early age." I really disagree. I think that would be a terrible, and ultimately self-defeating, thing to do to a child. We teach what's appropriate, and we go back and review as the child matures intellectually and emotionally. If a toddler loses a pet, you don't start right in on the mechanism of putrification. It's part of the picture, but it's irrelevant to their issues.

Likewise, you want to provide your children with a good basis for choosing sexual behavior, whether self-sexual or partnered in some way. Masturbation may be part of that. But being an AWESOME masturbator has no bearing, either way, on whether they make stupid choices around partners. I've never yet met a girl or woman, of any age, who said, "Gee, if I'd only been handier with Ol'Betsy, here, I wouldn't have picked up that idiot at homecoming" except in jest. I've never met anyone of at least average mental health who said, "Since I discovered self-pleasure, I no longer need human relationships." That's just not the critical issue.

If we really want to be available to our children, another prop isn't what we need, nor is a yen to tell OUR sad or glad tales. It's about them. They have their own stuff. Obviously, if a child says, "I've always wanted an electric dong." that would be part of the conversation. But it wouldn't BE the conversation. 

http://www.blogher.com/blog/she-who

Re: the terrifying imagery.

If I recall correctly I think Dr. Berman even specifically said that you don't need to discuss specifics like positions and whatnot but that the point was to encourage young women to explore and learn on their own so that they wouldn't think that orgasms are only a magical gift from men requiring girls to lose their identity or self-esteem in order to receive.

The diagrams I thought were just for the birds & bees talk.

As young women my sisters and I received copies of Our Bodies, Ourselves from our cool, hippie auntie. That was sufficient - specifics could be discussed among friends.

Also, in college I took a women's health class and a guest speaker demonstrated how to use a speculum to examine yourself and invited the class to file past and view her cervix. That was a bit too much for most of us and something that might be better taking place in a doctor's office (though I am not aware of doctors teaching such things so perhaps a bit of a catch-22) so there is something to be said for understanding and respecting boundaries and having the appropriate conversations with the appropriate person, be that friends, parents or doctors.

If a mom conveys the message to her daughter that it is OK to get to know her body and encourages her to figure out on her own, I think it can be healthy and not boundary crossing. But it is a good point that many adult women are not there yet (thus things like the demonstration in my college class) and find it difficult to even get to that point.

And, Gayle, seemed to be appalled by the idea that you would even tell your child that self exploration with or without a vibrator is any way acceptable. I sensed that she's not fully comfortable with her sexuality in a way that would allow her to have a conversation with her children. I think that was probably behind much of the uncomfortable laughter which escalated into shock and awe in the audience at the mention of vibrators.

BlogHer Contributing Editor ( http://www.blogher.com/blog/maria-niles )
PopConsumer ( http://consumerpop.typepad.com/popconsumer )
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You were happy for the uncle for the same reasons I was happy my son's father was there when he was 10. However, it turned out my ex-husband was more uncomfortable talking about sex than I was.

Now the son is 18 and he doesn't want to hear his mother talk about sex at all or even recognize me as a sexual being.  I have a spoken word CD, and in one of the poems my recitation struck my son as sexy.  When he heard it playing, he said turn that off!  I asked why, and he explained it was just that one recitation that bugged him and it's because I'm his mother and "that doesn't sound like you."  LOL. 

So, when I say he doesn't want to hear his mother to talk about sex, I'm not exaggerating. However, he was joking somewhat about the recitation, which I think was more sensual than sexual, which you can hear in the middle of this clip ( http://writingjunkie.net/goddess-skylark/raingod-c... ).

If I bring up the topic of sex with him, such as the importance of condoms, I do it quickly and matter of factly, and I think he appreciates that. Usually I get, "Yeah, yeah. O.K. Mom."

My daughter, 28, will talk to me about relationships but not sex really. She did however have no trouble telling a woman in Wal-mart whose husband had been hitting on her, my daughter, and other women, including calling on the telephone trying to get date after claiming he wasn't married, "Make him wear a condom." 

I was shocked and said she's lucky the woman didn't blow up at her.  It's  a long-long story.

Interesting thoughts about the idea of it taking a village being extended to the big sex talk as well.  Thank you for sharing it.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ): BlogHer CE and NOLA Lit Examiner ( http://nola101.com ). Blogs @ WSATA ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ) & UMBOP ( http://urbanpsalms.blogspot.com ).

Just dropping by to say that at least one comment in this thread has been trapped in the spam filter. Not sure why it was trapped, but it was. I released it and while try to watch the filter closely (if I get busy and y'all notice something missing - buzz me on Chatter, email, twitter, BlogHer inbox... somewhere!)

Sorry about that.

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This is the second time I'm responding. The first comment vanished. 

Thank you for talking about your experience with your mother.  Since this post focused on teens, I forgot to incude a link to the video of a mother talking to her 10-year-old daughter about sex for the first time with Dr. Berman's help. The mother had put it off so much the little girl thought she'd never know.  The link is now at the end of the main post under More Resources.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ): BlogHer CE and NOLA Lit Examiner ( http://nola101.com ). Blogs @ WSATA ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ) & UMBOP ( http://urbanpsalms.blogspot.com ).

Working with this quote first:

Sure, some of that is socialization. they don't have the same type of responsibilities, so they don't have the same concerns.

What we are discussing here is in fact the impact of socialisation as it impacts parent and child discussing something that generally leaves people all skittish in the discussing.

We prefer to pretend parents on one hand, and children on the other, are not sexual creatures. All of us know that curiosity is present. We also know that any given child has varying levels of knowledge on sex, and on masturbation.

In this case, the socialisation part carries taboos that are not healthy, not really. They leave us with baggage that takes years to shed as adults, if at all.

But everything we understand about brain development indicates that
aspects of impulse control (among other things) are still developing in
the teen brain. If we approach children and teenagers expecting the
same style of reasoning as adults, we're not taking their developmental
realities into account.

With this quote, I agree and have no quarrel with the fact those of the age group we discuss are still physically maturing, and that includes their brain.

Yet at some point, we teach about sex. Well, what is it we teach about sex? Clinical names for body parts? Don't do that? Or as is fortunately now back in vogue, if you do, do this?

Is that enough? No, I don't think so. Because sex is about so much more than knowing body parts and knowing how to protect. There is the whole emotional element that intertwines with the physical. There is the societal element that pressures to have sex yet also can eviscerate someone who finds they are pregnant as a result.

We can't just teach prevention, we have to teach what is fact, that it feels damn good, that it serves as a huge emotional release. That our bodies can give us great pleasure - and that is something to celebrate, not pretend like we do not love the experience.

The average 15 year old is awash in something wondrous and powerful, yet also fraught with danger if they are not well prepared mentally and physically. Any given person is likely most vulnerable at that time, because experience is missing.

Well, socialisation can be a force for good, not just boxing people in as it so often has done in the past. Why is it so wrong to empower our daughters with knowledge, including a framework of comfort with even being able to discuss the issue openly?

If they are skittish, where does that originate? Well, from society, from parent/child interaction. We can change that, we can do this in a way that leaves them without the baggage I carried around.

We do not preclude learning because their minds are not yet developed. We teach about everything from an early age. I do not see where physical immaturity is a factor in what we can teach here. A fifteen year old likely has experience with masturbation, so it isn't like it is some new and wondrous concept. Lets make the conversation be ok in light of day, lets empower them to know and appreciate their bodies. 

llhaesa ( http://llhaesa.org/ )

Funny, I blogged ( http://humanbeingblog.wordpress.com/2009/04/18/sex... )about how I know I would be one of those weird moms who buys her daughter a vibrator just the other day.

Lynn @ human, being

http://www.humanbeingblog.wordpress.com

I'm talking about the fact that children see the world differently than adults. They grow. Children in the age group we're discussing (say, 9-15) still approach life very differently than the average 40 year old. Sure, some of that is socialization. they don't have the same type of responsibilities, so they don't have the same concerns. And the Victorian Era 'invention' of childhood created a difficult paradigm for modern educators to overcome, when we're talking about what children 'may' know. But everything we understand about brain development indicates that aspects of impulse control (among other things) are still developing in the teen brain. If we approach children and teenagers expecting the same style of reasoning as adults, we're not taking their developmental realities into account.

NIMH http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/teenag...

PBS discussion http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/teen...

That's why the conversation may appropriately be different (even apart  from issues of social roles) when the conversation is with youth, rather than adults.

http://www.blogher.com/blog/she-who

can you elaborate on the following statement?

It's also somewhat suspect, developmentally, for children.

IMO, much of the reluctance here is socialisation, and that is where patriarchy says, 'hello'.

Wouldn't we be in a better place if these conversational barriers between parent and child were non-existent? If so, how do we get from here to there? 

llhaesa ( http://llhaesa.org/ )

As Nordette (among others) has pointed out, there are lots of mothers and children who are NOT having this conversation. At all. That's where you get the cognitive dissonance with a leap to vibrators. But it's not just a cognitive dissonance with parents, corrupted by that old devil patriarchy. It's also somewhat suspect, developmentally, for children. I don't know who Dr. Berman is talking to, and it sure ain't Oprah's dogs. So, among the 3 of us (Oprah, Dr. Berman, and me) the only one I KNOW has had these conversations for many years is me. So, I take myself as an authority. You don't have to.

However, and for what it's worth, in my experience, kids are typically embarrassed by these conversations. Less in recent years, as the sexualization of our society has impacted them, making shame more embarrassing than anything else, but still considerably. They want the straight story on masturbation as a human activity, and figure their methods are mostly equal to the task. If they're available to have this discussion at all, it mostly represents a kind of openness in the family, since they need family permission. They continue to be woefully ignorant (on the whole) about the mechanics of reproduction and it's important to realize how many young teens, in an average group, have already experienced some form of inappropriate sexual contact, and therefore have issues around that to resolve.

It is, indeed, a complicated business. But for the few children who are raised with good body awareness from the begining (where do babies come from, respectful toilet learning, etc.) the conversation is more likely to come up between a million other concerns, as, I suspect, most integrated learning does. Direct respectful answers of almost sound-bite length are what you have time for.

http://www.blogher.com/blog/she-who

I truly beleive we have to equip our daughters Kids with as much knowledge as possible when it comes to sex.  I cannot wrap my mind around having these talks with my kids BUT they have a host of auntees and uncles to get this knowledge from.  My family just had a discussion on this when we talked about tracking our kids online.  How much do we really want or need to know?  We decided to swap kids so that we can be a little more objective on following their activities without being overbearing or unrealistic.  This I think is a good approach on sex as well.  I have given my 13 year old a few books but the "talk" was done by his uncle and cousin.  I wanted him to be able to ask any and everything he needed to and I do not think he would have been comfortable with me AT ALL.  I have done the same for my neice and various relatives.  We also do something we call safe call.  Where if you are going somewhere you have no business you get to call one of us and inform us where you are going and when you expect to be back.  The thing is we are calling parents within X time if you do not show up or call. It really does take a village.  If you do not have a feakishly lage close knit family as I do then set up your own village.  I would have DIED on the spot having this conversation with my mom.  But with my aunt and her girlfriend at a sex toy party no less it was fun and empowering at the same time!

Michelle

I blog at http://www.mommycan.blogspot.com/

I really don't care if you look at it, I merely cite as an example, and gave some details.

Where I take exception is with this:

I have actual experience, and what my experience says is that you don't sit teens down for a lengthy discussion of "ways, means, and devices "

 I am big on individuaism, on choice, on self-determination. If you do not wish to do this, that is you, and it works for you, I have no quarrel with that view.

It is not the approach I would take if presented with this situation. My circumstances are such now that it won't happen, and when it could have, my outlook was a good deal different. I've learned over time, and hope to continue to do this.

I don't see this as machine vs hand; as is true of so much in life, choosing either is a matter of personal preference. I do see the discussion of preference as one likely to arise in such a conversation. If it doesn't it matters not to me. If it does - just me - I'd have no problem with it (where I might have 15 years ago.)

llhaesa ( http://llhaesa.org/ )

to have her first baby girl be someone completely unconstrained by natural modesty, lol. What a trial I was to her!

For my 12th birthday, she gave me a pamphlet from the doctor titled "A Doctor Talks to 9-12 year olds" which covered reproduction, puberty, etc. In the center was a section for the adult to tear out with suggestions on 'how to talk about difficult topics' including masturbation. I read that first, of course, correctly guessing that she'd remember and remove it. A couple of days later we sat down to "discuss" the material, and I made her miserable with my numerous wide-eyed questions about masturbation (at which I was already expert, of course). I was a difficult child, I was always told. :D

I may embarrass people talking about sex, but I've been doing sex ed for many years. It's important stuff to know. 

http://www.blogher.com/blog/she-who

Many of us feel very inhibited about discussing sex.  Especially when children or teenagers come into the picture.  We get told how important open comunication is but - if you are not truely comfortable about discussing something - should you force the situation?  Or is it better to acknowledge the roots of your discomfort - whether it is rational or not - and then finding alternative ways to approach the situation?

Yes. I believe in finding the root cause of emotional issues. And many of us have vivid memories of mothers giving us the "sex talk" and feeling that something's wrong with sex because our mothers looked like they'd jump out of their skins during the conversation. However, mine sort of tossed a book on reproduction at me and ran. Later, she might make statements like "Lots of girls get themselves into trouble just because some man made them feel good." In that way she might agree with Dr. Berman, that girls should know you can feel good without a man. But I know my mother would have not thought talking openly about masturbation was the solution to this quandary. Noooo. :-)

Thank you for your comment and visit.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ): BlogHer CE and NOLA Lit Examiner ( http://nola101.com ). Blogs @ WSATA ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ) & UMBOP ( http://urbanpsalms.blogspot.com ).

Good distinction here:

I have no problem with giving my daughter a vibrator. I cant say that
Im going to show her how to explore with it.  I believe that that is something better figured out for oneself.  When she reaches an appropriate age, I will give her a small vibrator and a couple of books.

I do think that's what's really upsetting some people. It seems that Berman wants mothers to pull out diagrams of the view between a woman's legs and an actual vibrator or fingers and then sit down and explain the pleasures of masturbation to a young girl face to face, not just give them a book and a vibrator in a gift box and hope they'll read it. Of course, if it's about sex, most kids would read it because they want information.  Yet, many kids don't even get a book or any significant talk about sex, not really.

Still, I think it's the image of sitting down and talking it over with a vibrator on the kitchen table between mother and daugther that's freaking people out partly.

Thank you for adding to this discussion.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ): BlogHer CE and NOLA Lit Examiner ( http://nola101.com ). Blogs @ WSATA ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ) & UMBOP ( http://urbanpsalms.blogspot.com ).

Thank you for the information, Suzanne.  I wonder if the doctor's advice on Oprah would have stirred as much talk if she'd said "get your 18 year old a vibrator on her birthday."  People are talking because Berman's suggested mothers start at least four years earlier, and possibly talk about manual masturbation sooner since children in middle school are already having oral sex.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ): BlogHer CE and NOLA Lit Examiner ( http://nola101.com ). Blogs @ WSATA ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ) & UMBOP ( http://urbanpsalms.blogspot.com ).

I don't need fiction. I have actual experience, and what my experience says is that you don't sit teens down for a lengthy discussion of "ways, means, and devices" as a necessary part of discussing sex with them. When I asked a teenage girl about this debate, her response was, and I quote, "Why would anyone need a vibrator? Are they afraid to touch themselves?"

http://www.blogher.com/blog/she-who

Still, my girls, with their super hip mother would hate for me to buy them a toy. And at 28 and 32, they can get their own.

Thank you. 

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ): BlogHer CE and NOLA Lit Examiner ( http://nola101.com ). Blogs @ WSATA ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ) & UMBOP ( http://urbanpsalms.blogspot.com ).

I do think that attitude plays into the discussion, especially from the side of many daughters.  After I watched Oprah, I talked to my 28-year-old about our sex talk when she was a teen and younger.  Then I told her what Berman said.  She told me, "Mom, I wouldn't have wanted to hear that from you. That's something you talk about with friends."

We forget that children have a need for privacy.  

But I don't think a mother would talk about it the same way a friend would.  Also, the following is a good observation:

A vibrator would definitely be an alternative to active sexual contact. What I am having a difficult time imagining is how a woman who does not use one herself would approach that subject. (comment @ WSATA ( https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=285830729... ))

I think she's on to something.

Thank you for your comment here. 

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ): BlogHer CE and NOLA Lit Examiner ( http://nola101.com ). Blogs @ WSATA ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ) & UMBOP ( http://urbanpsalms.blogspot.com ).

and factor that into the conversation.

Seriously, this is a rather narrow scope conversation we are talking on, not where the kidlets will be working on 4 credits for their college transcript.

In the context of a discussion on masturbation we assumed was underway between hypothetical mum and hypothetical daughter, it seems likely that methodology works its way into the conversation.

Now it might be one or both of the parties has one foot primed to scoot away from the conversation and dive under the 400 pillows Paige Davis insists be on a sofa, but absent that, assuming the conversation is underway, method au naturale vs the age of machines is likely to enter the conversation.

Which is exactly how I wrote the fiction piece. First daughter asks parents, parents and daughter chat, she asks questions, and eventually asks them to take her to a fictional toy shop (which they agree to do.) Even to my atrophied, 54-year-old brain, this seems a likely outflow of the candour inherent in the discussion.

llhaesa ( http://llhaesa.org/ )

Look, people have a lot of preferences. How many can you include, and still keep to the attention span of a teenager? I could be spending an enormous amount of time discussing shoe fetishes, equipment usage, ropes and chains, porn,  stuffies, the virtues of various lubricants...but they still have homework. They have other things to do than chat with me about sex, oddly enough.  If I give a teen a good working understanding of their reproductive system, (for which any of The Farm books are excellent) and of their sexual response, (using maybe JoAnn Loulan's fine book "Lesbian Sex") and I was also interested in their views on relationships, peer issues, etc., I'd have covered this.

We can't skip Algebra entirely, you know. :D 

http://www.blogher.com/blog/she-who

For people who did not see the show and are only reading this blog post, perhaps I need to make a clarification.

Dr. Berman did not say the only form of masturbation is electronic. She started out talking about manual masturbation and that made people uncomfortable. However, when she said the word "vibrator" the live audience and quite a few bloggers were dumbfounded, which is why the discussion has become more about giving daughters vibrators specifically rather than the use of fingers. :-) But it's also clear that many mothers can't even talk about using fingers.

Thank you for commenting.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ): BlogHer CE and NOLA Lit Examiner ( http://nola101.com ). Blogs @ WSATA ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ) & UMBOP ( http://urbanpsalms.blogspot.com ).

I find it encouraging that we, as women, are discussing this at all.  For too many years, any discussion about female sexuality was taboo. 

I remember my childhood and how I found my own ways to explore, even though masturbation was a taboo subject.  The only thing I ever heard about it was: Its wrong, dont do it.  I dont want my girls growing up and feeling ashamed of the feelings we all have.  They are only 7 and 6 months, but my oldest is already asking questions about the mechanics of sex.  I know that other questions will come up and I like to be prepared.

I have no problem with giving my daughter a vibrator. I cant say that Im going to show her how to explore with it.  I believe that that is something better figured out for oneself.  When she reaches an appropriate age, I will give her a small vibrator and a couple of books. 

I am young enough (32) that I can look back and realize that should my mother have tried to show me how to explore, I would have been mortally embarressed and trying not to think about  how she knows these things.   There are limits to my openness:-)

My biggest reason for this, is that I dont want my girls out having sex because they are curious about how it feels or because they dont want to stop.  If they know that they can go home and take care of it themselves, they are more apt to be able to stop.

Talking about sex is multifaceted.  There are a lot of different things that make up the whole act.  Reproduction and safety is of utmost importance.  That we will have conversations about.  It is just as important to discuss the feelings that lead up to it (i.e. love, passion) as it is to discuss that actual act.

I feel that its important that my girls know that they can always come to me, even if they choose not to.  No subject should be off limits.  I would rather have an uncomfortable conversation and know that the information they get is accurate, than wonder about what their friends are telling them.

~Sarah Michal

having this discussion on masturbation, wouldn't it be likely that preference would also be part of the conversation? 

llhaesa ( http://llhaesa.org/ )

If I was teaching someone to ride a bicycle, I wouldn't stop for a discussion of mopeds. *scratches head* 

http://www.blogher.com/blog/she-who

In my lit class, we read a short story by South African writer Sindiwe Magona. Before we discuss our readings in class, however, someone gives a presentation about the author. Magona, who worked for the UN for years, is a huge advocate of giving young women vibrators and teaching them how to pleasure themselves. Loudrastress ( http://pumlagqola.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/sindiwe... ) explains Magona's approach:

...when your daughter turns 18, buy her a vibrator as part of the birthday present pack, which also contains a book or two. In this way, you would be further opening up the dialogue on sexuality and pleasure with her, as well as showing her an example that although she is entitled to sexual pleasure, she is not supposed to die from it.

I think Magona's work, which is to prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS, is groundbreaking and exciting. Oprah is just catching up!

Suzanne Reisman ( http://www.blogher.com/member/suzanne-reisman ), Contributing Editor - Feminism & Gender ( http://blogher.org/topic/feminism-gender )
Campaign for Unshaved Snatch (CUSS) & Others ( http://cussandotherrants.com/ )

isn't that boundary unhelpful in the long run? Isn't it part of patriarchy, where sex is shadowy and dirty and women should compliantly focus on a man's satisfaction?

Our society really needs to shift away from that outlook. So many of us get caught in the periphery of patriarchy - me too, I've found such things in my way at various times, but when they do suddenly stand aglow as my issue, I like to meet that challenge, and overcome.

Discussing our bodies, especially for my generation (I'm 54) is often not easy. I do not wish to feel guilty my body, and I surely have enough issues there as it is, but we have the opportunity to change this with our young, to help them be strong and confident and appreciative of what their bodies are about and can do. 

As a feminist, I very much support this ideal. I do not wish to pass my baggage on to yet another generation.

llhaesa ( http://llhaesa.org/ )

that is something that would likely surface in such a discussion. Why not? 

llhaesa ( http://llhaesa.org/ )

I always thought I would be the cool mom, you know the one I mean. I would talk to my daughters about sexuality and they would listen, and talk back. Hoo yeah! They did not want to hear what I had to say. But each of them found my massager and my stash of Herotica books. It wasn't that I minded them using it. I just wished they would've put it back when they were done!

Rather than teach my girls about sexuality, which I wish somebody had done for me. I gave them each a copy of "Our Bodies Our Selves". I remember being fifteen, making out and having wet pants and thinking I was peeing and not knowing it. When a teenager has sexual feelings I think they should not repress them, but explore them and a vibrator or massager is a great way to do it.

Still, my girls, with their super hip mother would hate for me to buy them a toy. And at 28 and 32, they can get their own.

 Teen girls should absolutely be taking control of their sexual pleasure.  Absolutely.  It is life-changing at any age to know how to take care of yourself.

And I agree that this is not a conversation you want to have with your mom, unless you really think you want to have this conversation with your mom.  

I'm a big pro-sex, pro-pleasure, let's-talk-about-it-at-lunch-and-then-go-to-the-local-toy-shop kind of girl.  Many of my friends have called with random questions, taking advantage of my sex-ed hobbyist nature, and I am the one giving vibrators as housewarming gifts.

Imagine my shock when I realized that I wouldn't be the one to do this for my own daughter.

Not because I don't think she should know these things, but because this is a role for a trusted friend - someone who gets to see that side of you that your mother doesn't really have access to.  With me, such conversations would be uncomfortable and weird and affected, when it shoud be liberating, revelatory and fun.  That's sacred to me, and I don't want to bring it down with unecessary awkwardness or inhibitions.  So I have to get over my ego, and let someone else help her, even though it means the world to me.

 Note - this is different than talking about reproductive function.  I'm all over that.  But owning your sexual pleasure is a different thing, and women know even less about that than they do about the tools in the box (which still isn't usually much - how many people really understand ovulation?  Not many).

So most likely, one of my friends will do it.  'Cause make no mistake - this IS important and it is NOT a situation where we can assume they'll just figure it out and find their way.  Lots of women have been women a long time without knowing what gets them off, and looking for it in the wrong places.  This doesn't have to be sink or swim.  I have no problem facilitating a trusted person to offer some appropriate guidance, and help my girl get steady on the path, and I will be standing waaaaaaaay back.  It's the balance between guidance and space to grow.

Assumptions, Biases & Irrational Fantasies ( http://antibias.wordpress.com )

There are several things in this thread that interests me.  Firstly, this throw away comment:

Gayle seemed to believe that too much would be interpreted as approval
of teens having sex just because they think they're in love.

So many adults seem to believe this.  That the love you feel when you are a teenager is puppy love, or a crush, etc etc and not real, somehow.   Well - I also think its a bad idea for young girls to have sex.  But not because they are "not in love".  They are - totally, and often far more completely and passionately than they ever will be again.  If a teenager senses that you are belittling their love - they will lose trust and respect for you.  And rightly so.

I agree with Grace in recognising that talking about sex can cross a boundary in ways that are not neccesarily helpful.  How to approach this issue will depend utterly on the individual relationship between parent and child.  Some people are very private about sex  - and no, privacy does not equate to shame.  In fact, it can be a healthy statement of control of your own space and body.  On the other hand, this is a crucial topic and must be addressed somehow.  If a conversation is not possible, giving access to information in other ways - like books - is just as valid.   I feel uncomfortable about "leaving it to the peers" because - jeez.  That can go badly wrong!

I'm also very interested in Nordette's comments about the incest taboo.  So true.  I think what it comes down to for me, is this.

Many of us feel very inhibited about discussing sex.  Especially when children or teenagers come into the picture.  We get told how important open comunication is but - if you are not truely comfortable about discussing something - should you force the situation?  Or is it better to acknowledge the roots of your discomfort - whether it is rational or not - and then finding alternative ways to approach the situation?

(in a very general fashion) for a room full of little girls when I was hardly older, because I heard one use 'masturbation' as a swear, and I wanted them to have healthy self-concepts around sex. That would have been 1973, or thereabouts? Didn't help them much, that I ever noticed, but you can't say I didn't try.

If Oprah, or Dr. Berman, think batteries are essential to self-pleasure, they're mistaken.  What a terrible message to be giving our girls...especially on Earth Day. lol

I've never needed a vibrator. Should I make a special appointment with a daughter or two to mention THAT?

http://www.blogher.com/blog/she-who