The Presidential Debate - Mired in the Middle

The SC selected Bush in 2000 by a 5-4 majority; he has appointed more conservative judges since then. Why is yet "one more" going to matter?

Assuming that McCain wanted to rock the boat with an anti-Roe conservative -- and could get such an appointment through the Democratic Senate.

I'll worry about this when I hear Ginsberg or one of the other liberal judges SAY they want to retire before 2012.  If conservative judges wanted to retire, they would have done it while Bush still had a GOP Congress.

Thanks for this post and the comments thread too! I twittered it last night and got this response from moyalynne ( http://twitter.com/moyalynne/statuses/950883041 ):

@lizhenry ( http://twitter.com/lizhenry ) love the comments thread on that blogher post - thanks for passing it along. more worthy debate there than at the debates!

So I'm passing on the compliment.

-----------------
Liz Henry ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... )
lizzard@bookmaniac.net ( http://liz-henry.blogspot.com/ )
Contributing Editor, World and Latin America
( http://www.blogher.com/blog/liz-henry )

I figured my questions are pretty much the same as everyone else's...

How will you try to fix the economy?

Will I pay more taxes?

What's your plan for the war on Iraq?

These were just a few of my questions and all were addressed last night.

If you have one or the other in the white house which would be more receptive to influence from the other through their role in the senate?     

McCain will end his bid for the white house if this venture does not get realized, so he has to assume the role of support, in that of support of policy that is best for the nation not to further a political career which is in its twilight.   

Obama may be thwarted by a McCain’s administration and he will have ongoing political aspirations, that’s less than ideal particularly with a democratic majority.   

Obama will bring a democratic majority and allow republican influence, he needs to respect that  he needs to insure a second term, that will require working well with the houses.   

Nobody walks in knowing or having the answers, it is a process.   Change requires objectivity not staunch conservatism, we have lots of concepts on the table they all have to go through the house and looked at analytically. 

This administration will be totally preoccupied with financials, that are global issues as well, chanting hurray for America will not be appreciated.  We need to assure the world we are moving in a positive direction more stable and more secure.  Neither will get away with anything that is not built on logical efforts formed in consensus.  

We need a president that is a good speaker, if anything it is the figure head of the nation all the world watches and perceives through them, if that person is also thoughtful and intelligent it rings through…be careful choosing a self proclaimed maverick will not be appreciated around the world.          

We need brilliance and comparatively speaking Obama is more than McCain, it will be a tough four years and nothing will change easily within it, pick the man with a more pleasant demeanor, he will be more likely to make friends than enemies.     

Just thought i'd find out how it went at the debate. Did you get your questions answered and/or reach a decision? 

Temi

It's a pdf

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Tax_Plan_Fact...

Politics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain ( http://queenofspainblog.com/ )

Just point it out for me and maybe I'll change my vote.

You can find the answers you seek at http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/ where the plans are detailed and you can see for yourself.

Politics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain ( http://queenofspainblog.com/ )

Do you really want us to become a socialist country?  America thrives on competition and profits.  People are in business to make money and for that you want to punish those who are successful?  You make it sound as though we are giving free money to the rich when it is the rich who has been contributing more than the average Americans on taxes.  Do you honestly think that jobs will not be lost and businesses will not close down if we eat into their profits?  When the high income Americans lose their jobs, how will Obama continue to fund the policy that is outline in his proposal?

Just curious! Lisa Stone
BlogHer Co-founder ( http://www.blogher.com/member/lisa-stone )
Surfette ( http://surfette.typepad.com )

BlogHer is non-partisan but our bloggers aren't! Follow our coverage of Politics & News ( http://www.blogher.com/topic/politics-news ).

It's a fantastic site. I also recommend the Sunlight Foundation as a great congressional watchdog site: http://www.sunlightfoundation.com/ ( http://www.sunlightfoundation.com ). (Be sure to scroll down below their huge intro graphic to get to the info.)

Lisa Stone
BlogHer Co-founder ( http://www.blogher.com/member/lisa-stone )
Surfette ( http://surfette.typepad.com )

BlogHer is non-partisan but our bloggers aren't! Follow our coverage of Politics & News ( http://www.blogher.com/topic/politics-news ).

The reason why I was undecided for so long was making the stupid mistake of getting my information on what I saw on TV and what I read on the web.  It was only after I read and dissected the policies of both parties that I decided to vote for McCain. Why, because going with Obama’s plan would make me a looter and a freeloader.  I understand that the less fortunately needs breaks, but when it is ever going to be enough?  The rich are already paying higher taxes.  How much more do we Americans want to dig into their pockets?  How can we justify entitlement to their earnings?     Back to the subject of the undecided…I think the best way to help you determine who to vote for is to dig deep into the policies of each candidate and think of the negative implication that it will have long term.  We see the pros, but where are the cons?

Because I firmly believe our entire system needs an overhaul, but I can honestly say I've never voted republican, so maybe I'm just a idealistic democrat. I don't know. and I only changed my voter registration for primary purposes.

Either way, I'm anxious to hear what you think going in undecided and what, if anything, moves you.

saPolitics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain ( http://queenofspainblog.com/ )

I do feel like the princess at the ball!  Everywhere I go, people are all, "Oh, you're that undecided voter! Let me buy you dinner!"  "Tickets to the World Series are on me!" "Need a new car? I'll take care of it!" "You, my undecided friend, have earned a first class upgrade!"

Election, shmelection. BRING ME MY CROWN.

Scalia and his fellow "strict constructionists" will without question overturn Roe v. Wade if given the opportunity, and the folks in South Dakota are working on a proposition that they hope will line up to become a case before the new conservative Supreme Court in place under McCain. This is not propaganda -- this is reality. (This blog post gives more information: http://crewt.blogspot.com/2008/09/teeing-up-overtu...

Having a Supreme Court that could potentially be comprised of seven conservative justices will have a dramatic impact on our nation for generations for all the reasons Shelly mentioned above.

I can appreciate that you're an independent, though I find it difficult to understand that you still don't know how you're going to vote by now. I wouldn't rely on the debates, though, because these are more show than substance. Last week's VP debate demonstrated this concisely.

Both parties list their views on the issues, and several publications have provided side-by-side comparisons between both parties on abortion, gays, health care, Iraq, and so on. I'm assuming you have access to the Internet. Isn't it about time you did some research? 

I know it must feel like being the princess at the ball being undecided now, but we're less than a month away from this important election. 

Oh goodness, no, Roe vs. Wade is not safe at all. You're banking on Stare Decisis, or the judges following past precedent, when Scalia has already stated that he wasn't going to apply this principle if the underlying issue of Roe vs. Wade arose in front of the courts again.

But it's more than just Roe vs. Wade -- the whole concept of "right to privacy" and all that's related to it, including protection from illegal wiretapping, being able to use birth control, the Miranda Rights, are all in danger of being overturned, or made toothless with one more conservative judge. This is probably one of the most important campaign issues, and should not be treated lightly.

It is hard to know where you are going with this, especially without sources to fact check .  

~Susan

http://lilmomthatcould.com/

What about McCain?  What has HE DONE?

I'd like to say that I'm not trying to influence your vote, but of course, I most certainly am.

Part of Obama's timeline includes having Iraq's gov't. up & running, on it's own, within that time frame.  No matter where you stand on the political spectrum, it's foolish to leave before that is done.  And if it takes 20 mo. instead of 16 mo., he'll wait.  The point is that we haven't been putting any pressure on the Iraqis to get the show on the road.  This timeline does that.
 As far as taxes, if your family makes over $250K annually, yes, your taxes do go up.  But what are those dollars used for?  Better infrastructures, better healthcare options, just to name a couple. Unfortunately, some of that money will have to be applied to the BILLIONS of dollars in debt we've racked up during the current administration.  I know things are tight - LORD DO I KNOW!  But when you only give benefits to the upper 1% of our tax payers, that's what happens; the rest of us suffer.

My mom lived on the south side - I know it well.  Not all of it is bad, but there are certainly parts that are quite horrific.  I'm all about a hand-up, not a hand-out, which unfortunately is what a lot of people are looking for.  If we had more money to put towards primary education & college, and we could give these kids something to look forward to, to teach them what it's like to accomplish something on their own, then maybe, just maybe, they'd learn to stop repeating the "project" cycle.

Oh, and I also dream of a' la carte elections some day!  But no parties.  Just people.  People who want to help lead our country in the correct direction, without $ from special interests.  The way it is right now, no matter who you support, they always have a “past.”  What happened to stating what you believe in and how you plan to get there?  And owning up to your own record vs. pointing out the other guy’s faults?  Seems like honesty has gone way of my American Dream...

Roe vs Wade is safe, because it has become "part of jurisprudence"; so many other laws are based on it, that it would be too complicated to change them all. Even one of Bush's appointees said that. Candidates on both sides like to talk about it, because it energizes voters on both sides, pro and con. So they're not about to settle the issue, they both want to milk it.

And I'm so glad you mentioned the flaws with the debate. Considering the candidates (or at least one of them so far) doesn't actually answer the questions given, they are nothing more than side-by-side press conferences, as Christopher Hitchens called them this weekend. 

They're fun, of course. But not really a great tool for deciding a candidate, unless you're simultaneouly typing the claims into one of my other favorite sites, the nonpartisan Factcheck.org ( http://factcheck.org ).

Nice to see you here Lindsay!

Mom-101 ( http://mom-101.blogspot.com )
( http://coolmompicks.com )

While I am a partisan Democrat, I certainly am no fan of the corporate influence on both parties which leaves them often indistinguishable.

Also this article ( http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/05/magazine/05Davis... ) is a sad example of how, in part, excessive partisanship is pushing out politicians who want to work across the aisle.

And, while there are some Obama supporters waaaay to the left it is not because Obama is there. Many of us are more liberal/progressive than Obama but, like me, support him because he is pragmatic and therefore believe that he can actually accomplish moving us away from the failed policies of the Bush administration. If the lefties actually could influence the party the way righties do in the Republican party, Kucinich would be the nominee.

Looking forward to your report!

ConsumerPop Marketing ( http://www.consumerpop.com )
PopConsumer ( http://consumerpop.typepad.com/popconsumer ) (Politics, Current Events & Links)
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LOL on Obama/Palin! Clinton/Obama would have been great, I wish he'd accepted that when HIllary offered. Obama could have had sixteen years, first as VP then as President with more experience and a united party.

You are the person that BOTH parties are trying to "win".  Must be a pretty good feeling, huh?  ;)

Angela ( http://angelasdiscountmarket.com/angela.html )

...and I know where the candidates stand on the issues. I made a conscious decision to hold off on my final choice at least until tonight, when I really get a chance to see everything up close and personal. Thanks for the links, though. The more we all read about the issues, the better.

You're right, Mary Elizabeth. The candidates are very different. But then, so am I. If I don't claim to be a Republican or a Democrat, it would be extra-hard for me to align all my beliefs with either candidate's platform. I agree with Obama on some things and I agree with McCain on some things. I'm not completely satisfied with either. I felt much the same way when faced with the choice between Gore and Bush, although I'm happier with the candidates in general than I was then.

It's like my Granddaddy said, "You show me a politician and I'll show you a crook."

Disillusioned...much?! 

Lets keep the focus on the economy and judge the candidates on what really matters , What have they DONE ??   Has anyone ever been to the South Side of Chicago ??? I have - many times .
The residents there have been surviving in sub-standard conditions for years . There are no jobs , crime is rampant , and the housing conditions are so poor it is a complimentary exaggeration to call them slums .
The word ‘projects’ indicates a work in progress , but on the Chicago’s south side it takes on a different meaning - a stagnant , decaying slum . 11 of these deplorable buildings on the south side are owned by Obama’s friend Tony Rezco .
Obama funneled State money to Rezco to ” improve conditions in those buildings ‘ - never happened .
Obama also funneled $100,000 for a ‘ let them eat cake’ gazebo on the south side . The gazebo was never built even though I am sure that those families who are living in falling down buildings in crime infested neighborhoods were really hoping for a freaking gazebo .
Sen. Obama handed his wife’s employer a 1 million dollar earmark . He requested 3 million to update a projector at the Sky Theater .
Trinity Church and Rev. Pfleger benefited from the 100 million dollars Obama doled out for the Annenberg Challenge which was SUPPOSED to have been used to help the failing public school system .
Some of the programs Obama turned down for grants were : The Chicago Algebra project , and The District 5 Math Initiative - both are worthy projects that the public school system desperately needed to finance . Meanwhile , Obama’s buddies , and radical groups received millions .
When you go to vote this year , I would encourage you to check out the South Side of Chicago , Obama’s own Senate district . See what “Change” Obama has brought to his own district . Take a look at how his ‘leadership’ has ‘improved’ his own community , and then ask yourself , ” If Senator Obama doesn't care about his own community, what will he do for me ?” Talk about a " Housing crisis " .....

Being an independent and not affiliated with any party is something I decided to do almost 10 years ago. Primarily because there are issues where I side with Republicans, while there are issues where I side with Democrats. While I'm pro-choice, I'm also for tougher laws on immigration. I'm for gay rights, including the redefinition of marriage and repealing "don't ask, don't tell," both of which were affected by legislation enacted under Clinton.

I don't believe in following one party because when that party is not in the majority, the dialogue doesn't push forward unless you're reaching out "across the aisle" to get things done. Too often, Democrats and Republicans blindly follow their party leaders without considering the other side and discussing the differences to reach a compromise. 

That's why I'm an independent. I want all parties at the table...talking, to make this country better for its citizens. Although they have the most money, media access, and power, two groups do not represent all of us.

A. L. Venable is a Random Citizen...and registered Independent. She primarily writes at Dimple and a Smirk (dot) com ( http://www.dimpleandasmirk.com/ ) and Our PDX Network ( http://ourpdx.net/author/angel/ ).

Not trying to sway you one way or the other.  But, since the beginning of this election season...Obama has moved very far into the center (which is even troubling to some liberals), and McCain has moved very far to the right (because it's the only way he can sure-up his base). 

If I were you, I would look into some of the sites that allow you to get a fair look at each candidate on the issues, and I would do it before you watch the debate tonight.  Debates are very important (and helpful), but they are "staged" to some extent, each candidate knows what they want to convey, and they will convey it.  You may, or may not, hear what you need to hear, to make an informed decision at the polls.

Here are a few sites and tools that I have found to be both honest and informative...

Here is a great widget that allows you to compare Obama and McCain policies, by the issues that are most important to you.

http://politicsanew.com/2008/09/26/interactive-wid...

I love, love, love, expert voter.  Because, this site allows you to compare the candidates on the issues, but the answers are all in video responses by the candidates.  It's kinda like getting the news just on the issues that are important to you...

http://www.expertvoter.org/

Another great one is - Vote by the Issue Quiz ( http://www.votebyissue.org/election2008/ )...

This quiz features some of the issues that have gained traction this
campaign season. Your job is to simply select positions that correspond
with your own views.

The responses are quotes from all
presidential candidates that have been collected from the campaigns or
culled from public speeches, interviews or statements.

 Another informative site (but a little more complicated) is...

OnTheIssues.org ( http://ontheissues.org/default.htm )

So, the above is all the fair and balanced stuff.  Here is my two cents...

I was for Hillary, and jumping on the Obama bandwagon hasn't been easy for me.  Especially, since he didn't even offer the VP spot to Hillary.  I admit, I am still even a little bitter about that.

But, as a nurse, healthcare is very important to me.  I never could understand why everyone in our country didn't deserve to have access to affordable and quality healthcare.  And, something I found out yesterday about the McCain healthcare plan totally floored me.  Here is a link to the post I wrote on this last night...

http://politicsanew.com/2008/10/07/the-mccainpalin...

I hope you find some of these links helpful, and I look forward to hearing how you feel about the debate tonight. 

:-)

Contributing Editor Catherine Morgan
at Catherine-Morgan.com ( http://catherine-morgan.com/ ), The Political Voices of Women ( http://politicsanew.com/ ), Care2 Election< ( http://www.care2.com/politics/features/ )

I'm jealous.

I'm pretty scared by how much "each side loathes each other."    I don't understand that.   How can people live with such anger?  (sometimes if feels a little like that Jr. High thing -- tear down the other guy to feel better about yourself).

Our house has both signs outside it.  (it feels like a little "hurrah for America" actually)

I'm the weirdo who DREAMS of a' la carte elections.

I'd so be Obama/Palin 

Thanks again for giving me something I can relate to!!!

As an independent, I feel lost as well.  Thank you for your thoughtful, honest post.  For those that are passionate about this presidential election one way or the other, I know it's got to be hard to understand where we're coming from.

I'm so glad you are taking the initiative to be at the debate in Nashville! I'm looking forward to reading about how tonight plays out for you.

Zena Weist, working on the client side in corporate marketing. Twitter id: zenaweist

I totally agree with your post and infact, just posted ( http://pinkvanillacupcakes.blogspot.com/2008/10/no... ) the same thing on my blog this week. Ugh, it's really hard to figure out who I want to vote for. I had hoped by now that I would be set on a candidate but I really feel less certain than ever. I'll be watching the debate with intense interest. I will be looking forward to your update!

suzi

http://pinkvanillacupcakes.blogspot.com ( http://pinkvanillacupcakes.blogspot.com/ )

Not that I represent all independents, but thank you for writing this article. It's very easy to get caught up in the parties, but neither entirely speaks for me, or a lot like me. 

I'm pretty certain I've made up my mind on who I'll check off for president once my ballot arrives, but that doesn't mean one party will have a "down ticket" advantage. I tend to spend more scrutiny on those closer to my home poltically-speaking. ( http://www.blogher.com/politics-its-local )

A. L. Venable is a Random Citizen...and registered Independent. She primarily writes at Dimple and a Smirk (dot) com ( http://www.dimpleandasmirk.com/ ) and Our PDX Network ( http://ourpdx.net/author/angel/ ).

At this point, I'm not sure how any voter could consider themselves "undecided." But then again, I also have a hard time understanding how anyone can be independent. Obama and McCain have fundamentally opposite views of the role of government, women's rights, the environment, taxes, foreign policy...well, the list goes on. Sames goes for our two parties. I'm a democrat and I believe that govt can be a force for good. I don't believe in trickle-down economics. The Bush tax cuts mostly benefited the super-wealthy what with tax cuts on investment income and reductions in estate taxes etc. Bush vetoed the children's health ins. plan (S-CHIP) to cover uninsured kids. I am pro-choice.I believe in diplomacy (the kind we engaged in during the Clinton years) and not our 'go-it-alone' approach during the Bush years.

Saying you support "the person not the party" sounds nice but really it's pretty meaningless. If you're voting for congress, the only vote a member makes that matters is the one vote for leadership. That vote for speaker decides which party will control the agenda. And if you vote for a republican or democrat for president, those core conservative or liberal philosophies will determine which judges are appointed and how those cabinet positions are filled. McCain might call himself a "maverick" but he's voted with Bush 90 percent of the time and on the issues that matter to Republicans he's right in line.

Have a great time at the debate.

As an independent voter with what seems to me to be a centrist outlook on politics and government, you might want to look into the impact of the next president on the Supreme Court and our constitutional rights. Currently the Court is comprised of 4 conservative and 4 liberal justices with Kennedy voting independently as a centrist. Due to their ages, it's quite possible that during the next administration 3 of the liberal justices will step down. John McCain has stated that if elected he will nominate conservative justices like Scalia to the bench as vacancies arise. If this happens it's pretty much certain that Roe v. Wade will be overturned and decisions on women's reproductive rights will revert back to the individual states. Conservatives love this and liberals are terrified. This is only one example, but it's an extremely serious situation. Americans will feel the ripple effect for generations as Supreme Court appointments are for life. If Obama is elected president, the Court will continue to be "fair and balanced" (to borrow a phrase from Fox News.)

Just some food for thought.

Tracy

http://crewt.blogspot.com