Proposition 8 and the Black Community - Are We At Fault?

I was going to talk about the rather chilly racial climate in Toronto post-presidential election, but this piece caught my eye. Sex columnist Dan Savage opined over the demise of Proposition 8 in California -and guess who is accused of its downfall?

I’m not sure what to do with this. I’m thrilled that we’ve just elected our first African-American president. I wept last night. I wept reading the papers this morning. But I can’t help but feeling hurt that the love and support aren’t mutual.

I do know this, though: I’m done pretending that the handful of racist gay white men out there—and they’re out there, and I think they’re scum—are a bigger problem for African Americans, gay and straight, than the huge numbers of homophobic African Americans are for gay Americans, whatever their color.

Oh please. Yeah, I said it. Let me explain what has added to my fustration to Savage's belief: A couple of weeks ago I was chatting via IM with a male friend (white, gay) about Proposition 8. Admittedly, I had only a general knowledge that the issue would be raised during the election and my friend and I both expressed how disappointed we were. Then my friend says, ‘well, if gays do not have the right to marry, than Blacks should lose their civil rights.’ I was shocked. At first I tried to respond in a mature and civilized way that would not ruin our almost 15-year friendship, but later on, I was angry at myself for not responding the way I had immediately felt after he said that, which would have been to cuss him out. Did he think about the lack of logic to his argument before he said that, or was he simply lashing out in anger? And while I said that I thought his views were extreme and irrational, should I have called him a bigot? there was an insinuation that his rights as a gay man somehow trump my rights as a black woman and a dismisiveness to the rights that people died for just to be able to be treated as human beings. I resent those implications.

Yes, obviously discrimination against the LGBT community is abhorrent. Just like racism, sexism and ageism is. But what irked me was that my friend, whom if he chose to, can conceal his sexuality to his co-workers and family members, (which he has, BTW) - yet my blackness and my gender cannot be concealed and I cannot choose to hide it in the public eye when it is suitable for me. Regardless of his sexuality, he is a man, and because of patriarchy, has more privledge as a white man than people of color. But does this means that racism trumps homophobia? No, it does not. does that mean that the LGBT community should hide their partners and their social lives? Certainly not. But people who make those pronouncements ( and this is not the first time I had heard such an argument) have to realize that discrimination comes in a different form for people of colour and you cannot always equate one discriminatory act with another.

Secondly, while I resent the implication from Savage that 'all blacks are homophobic' I have to say that in my experience, I have met a number of black folks whom, under the guise of religion, are extremely homophobic. Danielle's at the Black Snob, writes,

Basically, "we" have a lot of nerve when we call for the limiting of someone else's rights. Especially when there are so many black people who are gays and lesbian who don't feel the love and support of our community. All because we are so wrapped up in one passage in Leviticus and not the numerous others we ignore (shellfish, anyone?), not the other parts of the Bible we ignore, not acknowledging that we cherry pick and interpret as we choose in an effort to do to others what was done to us.

Melissa Harris-Lacewell at The Kitchen Table tends to agree with Savage - or at least sides with Savage in the presumption that all blacks are homophobic:

Is this going to be our legacy as a people? Will African Americans prove to be little more than a selfish, regressive, identity group who snatch a symbolic victory for themselves while simultaneously denying full democratic equality to others? If so, then we are no better that the HRC supporters who now wave Sarah Palin banners because they are determined to have a uterus in the White House.

In Savage’s post, he insinuates that perhaps the California LGBT communities – and everyone non-black, for that matter – who voted for Obama was somehow doing blacks a favour. That they, despite the better policies that the Democrats put forth in relation to the Republicans, meant nothing. It was simply to show how liberal they are or to perhaps stop the race riot that of course would have ensued in Compton if McCain won. Adam Serwer from American Prospect’s blog Tapped writes:

Those in the LGBT community who voted for Obama voted for the same reason everyone else did: because voting for him was in their interest. Black folks don't owe white people anything because Obama is the president-elect. Period. You didn't elect him for us; you elected him because you thought he was the better candidate.

I do not beleive that the 'black vote' led to the demise of Proposition 8. But, hell, I'm a Canuck so what do I know? I do think that, just like all the racial crap that came out just before the election, this is a strategic plan to try and cut down the importance of the election, the not-so hidden resentment from some who think that Obama as President is somehow a 'victory' for all African-Americans at the expense of....well everyone else. The fear that because some have supposedly 'won' means that others will suffer. That was during the Republican era baby, y'all getting that messed up. It's a new day.

Don't beleive the hype. Just fight to try get this law re-enacted for the sake of all Americans.

For more info, please check out Pam's House Blend .

Submitted by lainad (view blog

) on Thu, 11/06/2008 - 6:49pm

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Small Correction

Line 3, Prop 8 was in California, not Florida.

Otherwise, great post and set of links.

;o)

Black Phoebe :: Ms. Jen
Barflies.net
Around Ireland
The Happy Tastebud

Submitted by msjen on Thu, 11/06/2008 - 19:49

Coalition Building

70% of African Americans and a majority of Latinos voted for Proposition 8 so unfortunately it is true that we contributed to the success. Organizers of the Yes on 8 campaign also did a good job of insinuating that Obama supported the proposition which he did not.

However, Liza Sabater has a good post (which also quotes La Macha at Vivir Latino) pointing out the flip side of the coin which is that the GLBT community (much like the feminist community) has had a history of predominantly white leadership and has not always succeeded in efforts to reach out to communities of color and build working coalitions.

From the Mercury News article linked above:

"I think, to be quite candid, some people feel white gay and lesbian people have not been with them on the issue of race," he said. "So (African-Americans) said, 'Why should we be concerned about them when they were not concerned about us?' "

Oscar Dace, senior pastor of the Bible Way Christian Center in San Jose, said it may have rankled some African-Americans to hear civil rights for gay and lesbian people compared to the civil rights struggles of blacks in the 20th century....

"The LGBT community has not done a good job of having relations with people outside of a white middle-class group," said Nieto. Among the leadership of the No on 8 campaign, "I could not find any evidence of any African-Americans or Latinos that were on the steering group. Even if it was one or two, that's not good representation."

Liza writes:

So let me repeat this because it's important : White men and women, whether gay or straight, will be seen as always having the upper-hand in communities of color. The gay communities needs to make themselves part of our communities to gain our respect and our vote; just like any other political movement.

Progressive activists on both sides of the gender and color spectrum need to take a hard look at what happened in California and Florida and re-evaluate the ways we form coalitions.

BlogHer Contributing Editor
PopConsumer
Beyond Help

Submitted by Maria Niles on Thu, 11/06/2008 - 19:57

I almost always agree with

I almost always agree with Liza, but I disagree with her on this one.

I don't think that the gay community necessarily has to reach out to the black or hispanic community, in order to "earn" some form of support for equality.

That's little different than saying, well you know, our community is all white. The blacks and hispanics aren't reaching out to us here, so we shouldn't support blacks or hispanics.

Do we believe in equality? Do we believe that Muslims deserve to be treated the same as Christians? Do we believe that blacks deserve to be treated the same as whites? Do we believe that women should have the same opportunies as men? Do we believe that gays have the same rights as straights?

You can't say that you're for "equality" if you answer no to _any_ of these. Equality, freedom, they aren't race specific, or gender specific, and so on. The blacks can't say that really, civil rights are only for black people--or have we forgotten what Coretta Scott King said, about a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage:

"We have a lot of work to do in our common struggle against bigotry and
discrimination. I say 'common struggle,' because I believe very
strongly that all forms of bigotry & discrimination are equally
wrong and should be opposed by right-thinking Americans everywhere.
Freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation is surely a
fundamental human right in any great democracy, as much as freedom from
racial, religious, gender, or ethnic discrimination."

How about John Lewis:

"This discrimination is wrong. We cannot keep turning our backs on gay
and lesbian Americans. I have fought too hard and too long against discrimination based on race and color not to stand up against discrimination based on sexual orientation. I've heard the reasons for opposing civil marriage for same-sex couples. Cut through the distractions, and they stink of the same fear, hatred, and intolerance I have known in racism and in bigotry."

And this page lists many more reminders of what's really at stake: decency and equality for all people, not just the minority of the moment.

Submitted by shelleyp on Fri, 11/07/2008 - 08:01

Voting Coalitions

I won't speak for Liza but the reason why I quoted her post is because voting coalitions have to be actively built, they do not form naturally based on shared interests.

So it is not a matter of "earning" support for equality but rather, as I know from my graduate research, effectively working across communities to build awareness of shared interests and goals to build working coalitions. This is a mistake that social justice activists often make - assuming that a common history of discrimination and a shared desire for equality will translate in to voting coalitions. It just does not happen no matter how logical it might seem.

Many black civil rights leaders and organizations opposed Prop 8 but, at least anecdotally (there is research to be done and lessons to learn), it looks like the Yes on 8 forces did a better job at reaching out (even if they sadly resorted to lies and distortions).

Ultimately it is not a matter of placing blame on any group but recognizing that there are lessons that can be learned about how to better achieve goals. Let's figure out how we can more effectively organize and build a working voting coalition.

Submitted by Maria Niles on Fri, 11/07/2008 - 10:24

Maria, I can understand what

Maria, I can understand what you're saying. The point, does it really require a "coalition" to understand equality, and vote accordingly? I had thought, I had really thought, our country was beyond that and we, the people, are the only coalition that needs to exist.

I think what needs to happen is a discussion in all communities about what equality really is, and that the fight for equality isn't just for the blacks, or hispanics, or women, or any one group or another.

Submitted by shelleyp on Fri, 11/07/2008 - 11:53

yes and yes

As counterintuitive as it might seem, yes, a coalition is needed because there are competing interests. But I agree, it is frustrating to recognize that but what I learned in my work is that recognizing that reality and the work that is required leads to more successful outcomes.

And, yes, those are exactly the type of discussions we need to have. I think once people discuss and grok the fact that much of the propaganda and fears are unfounded, that taking away rights from anyone diminishes the rights of everyone and the next time powerful special interests might come after your rights, most folks get it.

Submitted by Maria Niles on Fri, 11/07/2008 - 12:38

Not a Brilliant Chess Move

I found the results of Prop 8 to be morbidly disgusting! Although I am a Black heterosexual female, nevertheless I have always supported gay marriages, same-sex adoptions, as well as upholding the Supreme Court decision of Roe V Wade. Unfortunately, Christianity has a played a vital role in many Black communities. Many African Americans are physically liberal, but socially conservative. What went wrong with Prop 8 and the Black vote? A.S.S.U.M.P.T.I.O.N and BAD MARKETING! There is a smaller percentage of Blacks living in California than any other ethnicity group. There are more faith-based televised sermons advertised on BET, than MTV or VH1. There were no grassroots campaign pushing the opposition agenda of Prop 8 in Black and Hispanic urban/suburban areas. Kanye West, a rapper who has openly expressed his support for gay marriages would have been a great spokesperson for the Black community. Politics is a game of chess, and Prop 8 is just one of the 16 pieces! The Mormans understood their religious constituents. If you want to forward a faith based agenda among minorities, then target the Black churches. President Bush did this during his Presidential campaign. Trying to push Prop 8 right after the Presidential victory of President Obama {without gaining a favorable amount of attention to this subject from Blacks and Hispanics} was infantile. You want Prop 8 eradicated? Then reach out to the Black community. It's NEVER too late! I still support same sex marriages.

Here is a great chess move. According to DADI, 69% of births among Black women were to unwed mothers. Black women are the least likely to be married (more than any other women of any different ethnicity). Call the Black churches out on their hypocrisy. The older pre-Civil Rights generation do not believe that Gay-Marriage is a civil rights issue, so don't make it one! It's a losing battle! Instead create this argument, "Why are so many African-Americans concerned about respecting the institution of marriage, when so many children in Black communities are being born out of wedlock?" This would be a great debate to take on with Black pastors. A widely publicized debate on BET with pastors {like Creflo A. Dollar and TD Jakes}, would push the issue among many young voters in HBCUs (historically Black Colleges and Universities). Target the Black Gay Elite in Atlanta, Georgia to pull further resources. They are well connected to many other Black organizations and learning institutions. I hate to admit this, but the failure of Prop 8 did not lie with the Mormans or religious Blacks. The failure lied with the upper-middle class gay elite who refused to form allies with the Black and Hispanic communities. The Morman churches CAME PREPARED!

Submitted by Liberal Sista on Wed, 10/28/2009 - 06:48

proposition 8

it was a great choice....a victory for all christians...to Rosy, ellen D, and the rest of gay community....GOD made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.....one day every knee shall bow and toung confess that JESUS IS LORD....read sodom and gamora..........the LORD will not put up with homosexuallity much longer....and realize he is not my GOD, AS people put it...he is OUR GOD AND HEAVENLY FATHER.......AMEN

Submitted by wwjd50 on Fri, 11/07/2008 - 19:46

Thanks Maria and MsJen

Stupid mistake. I'ts fixed!

Thanks Maria for that perspective- I should have checked Liza - I know she is the go-to girl.........

Contributing Editor - Race, Ethnicity & Culture

Writing is Fighting: www.lainad.typepad.com

Submitted by lainad on Fri, 11/07/2008 - 03:48

Why do you have to compare?

Cultural oppression is at fault, and none of the groups mentioned benefit at all from pitting ourselves against each other.

I hope you reconsider falling in the trap of the oppression oneupmanship game that you are ironically railing against. For example, it stings when you are so dismissive of closeting. You said, for example, that you can't hide "when it is suitable for me," which is very offensive and not how queer people feel about closeting, nor is an option for many, nor is not easy, nor is it palatable to ask children to be closeted for their mothers.

Please know that most proponents of gay rights don't blame black voters, although the 70% numbers speak for themselves. We know the problem is pulpit politics in black, white, minority, majority, traditional and immigrant communities, and that those impacted by the homophobia and fear that some preachers and believers link to one interpretation of a part of the Bible is the barrier. Gay rights is a combination of old skool oppression mixed with symbolic state v. church issues. It's bigger than all of us right now, but we will chip away at it.

I am thrilled Obama will be our president. For me and my children. AND for the healing it offers to my country's racial pain. And most certainly for the leadership he offers to rise above and keep our eyes on change, justice and hope.

Deb
www.debontherocks.com blog
www.3smartgirlz.com

Submitted by debontherocks on Fri, 11/07/2008 - 07:24

You are right

Deb, I do not know what it is like to feel 'closeted' but I don't think that I was being dismissive. However (and excuse me if I am playing the 'oppression oneupmanship') but there is clearly a lack of understanding about what it feels like to be stereotyped because of the colour of your skin. The are clear differences there. White LGBT, despite of their sexuality do benefit from white privledge. That is all I am saying and if I offended you by my lack of understanding I apologize.

This post was simply reacting to Savage's post. If you have an issue with oppression onupmanship (which I find offensive) take it up with him.

Contributing Editor - Race, Ethnicity & Culture

Writing is Fighting: www.lainad.typepad.com

Submitted by lainad on Fri, 11/07/2008 - 07:46

Here's a nice statistical analysis

A friend sent me a link to a DKos diary entry that demonstrates that is is mathematically impossible for black voters to have supplied the margin of defeat on Prop 8.

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor|Professor Kim|

Submitted by Kim Pearson on Fri, 11/07/2008 - 08:15

Kim, I don't think anyone is

Kim, I don't think anyone is blaming the blacks for Proposition 8. I know, though, that many of us, straight and gay, are disappointed that 70% of the black community voted in favor of the bill.

Something was broken in this election. We need to work on fixing what is broken.

Submitted by shelleyp on Fri, 11/07/2008 - 11:56

Please check out...

PamHouseBlend.com. Sorry, but yes. There are those blaming blacks. Actually, quite a few people.

An entertainment & culture blog for women of color
http://GreyDaySoul.blogspot.com

My Celebrity blog - http://RoseRollinsFanBlog.blogspot.com

Submitted by GreyDay on Sat, 11/08/2008 - 14:12

That really doesn't strike

That really doesn't strike me as a compeling argument all around. The results of Florida 2 were essentialy the same. The exit polls for Props 4 and 8, and the presidential election in both California and Florida were very accurate. It's a stretch to insist that this one figure was faulty.

The flipside of that is, OK, the gay community feels hurt and the black community, I think, feels somewhat defensive. For reconciliation, both sides have to do some work, but I think the gay community isn't going to be willing to make the first move unless they're sure the black community is going to make a substantial effort and work for real results. The reports that the numbers of AA voters wasn't enough to change the election won't help either, because working with limited resource, the gay community isn't going to be eager to invest more time into a community that already largely voted in favor of the Proposition that end up being irrelevant at the polls.

Submitted by Buffalo on Sun, 11/09/2008 - 06:13

Thank you, Kim!

This "70%" business has been driving me nuts for 2 days!

It is not true that 70% of African Americans in California voted for Prop 8. Not true.

It is true that 70% of the African American people who voted and responded to the exit polls voted for Prop 8. I recommend reading the Daily Kos post that Kim referenced - it does the math in great detail. This is a very important distinction that is being glossed over everywhere I look.

Poorly stated statistics can be extremely divisive. And I've been reading a lot about this, shellyp - quite a lot of people are blaming The Blacks for Prop 8. Probably because they think 70% of them voted for it. Because that's what people keep saying over and over again. It's pretty disheartening.

- Atena

Assumptions, Biases & Irrational Fantasies

Submitted by Atena on Fri, 11/07/2008 - 15:09

Atena, there will always be

Atena, there will always be people who blame someone for everything. But you're right, I should have said, most of the people I know and read don't blame the blacks for Proposition 8 winning. There are also blacks who are saying, this is all the gays fault, implying they deserve this bill, because after all, they didn't work with the minority communities enough.

Can we not agree both extremes are not helpful?

I don't have anything more to say, other than I want to point you all to a post in a weblog I read all the time, by a marine biologist who lives in California and who is gay.

Submitted by shelleyp on Fri, 11/07/2008 - 16:34

To be clear

Shelly,

I want to respond to your comment because, though you are responding to Atena, I want to be clear that though I suggest up thread in discussion that going forward the LGBT community seek to work more closely with communities of color I was not saying that passage of Prop 8 should be blamed on the gay community nor that they deserved it. I appreciate and share your desire to not play a divisive, non-productive blame game with fingers pointed at either the black or gay community. Especially since they are not mutually exclusive.

Both my sisters are gay and black. I am heartsick beyond belief that Prop 8 passed. But I am heartened by the fact that many are immediately working towards the continued fight for equality. But I know that as an African American voter the Yes on 8 campaign asked for my vote and No on 8 did not. That has to change going forward.

I think this statement (via Pam Spaulding H/T CE Jill Miller Zimon) is excellent in putting the issue in perspective - any blame for passage of Prop 8 should be placed on those who supported it, raised money for it and campaigned for it.

Submitted by Maria Niles on Fri, 11/07/2008 - 19:08

Maria, the blame for a bill

Maria, the blame for a bill passing or failing ultimately rests on the voter. It's sad that we allow ourselves to be lied to, or misled, but ultimately it is our duty to find out the truth and vote accordingly.

I blame the people for starting the bill, but I can't blame them for the vote. No matter how much I want to.

I couldn't find the one quote, but Coretta Scott King once said that a constitutional amendment should only be used to enhance liberty, not to deny it. Ultimately, I cannot understand how a people who could vote for Obama in one space turn around and vote to enshrine discrimination into the state constitution the next. Regardless of the race of the voter.

I found it particularly difficult that any black person would vote for a discriminatory amendment. I've always been horrified and ashamed when people of my race practice discrimination, but unfortunately am not surprised. I guess I wasn't expecting the resistence to gay marriage from the black community. Perhaps that's unfair of me. Such is life.

But I still believe that we should never need to form coalitions in order to fight for civil rights. All right thinking people should support civil rights.

Submitted by shelleyp on Fri, 11/07/2008 - 21:00

It is not a discriminatory amendment

Marriage has been defined in every major culture around the world as between 1 man and 1 woman. Prop 8 was not about denying rights to marry. It was about keeping the definition of marriage intact. Everyone who wants to marry under this definition has the same rights. It is not about marrying the one you love. I cannot marry someone who is already married, I cannot marry someone who is a child (pedophiles have been blogging that they hoped Prop. 8 would be defeated so they could start their campaign), I cannot marry my brother or my sister, I cannot marry my dog, I cannot marry my father. I cannot marry my mother. Domestic Partnerships were set up to specifically give homosexual couples the exact same rights as heterosexual married couples while leaving the definition of marriage intact.

I grew up with a lesbian couple as good family friends for over 30 years. Both "A" and "C" served proudly in the US Armed Forces. Everyone knew they were lesbians, it was never a secret, but they didn't ram it in everyone's face either. They lived their lives with dignity and respect from people because they acted dignified and respectable. When "C" died, "A" was at her bedside. "A" also received all the rights of survivorship and they did not live in a state that had domestic partnership laws to protect them. "A" did not receive "C"'s social security benefits, but that was because "A"'s social security benefits were larger than "C"'s and you are able to collect only the larger amount, which is exactly the same for heterosexual married couples.

I still have gay and lesbian friends and have lost some of them to AIDS. I still voted for Prop 8. If there is anyone to blame for the defeat of Prop 8, it is the judges who overturned Prop 22 after 4 million majority voters expressed their desire to keep the definition of marriage as between 1 man and 1 woman. It can be blamed on Mayor Newsom who proclaimed from the steps of City Hall, "It's gonna happen whether you like it or not!" Taking first graders to a lesbian wedding under the guise of a "teachable moment" didn't help either. I was never taken in school to an interracial wedding, an interfaith wedding, a traditional wedding or any other kind of wedding.

I will agree that changing the laws to allow interracial weddings needed to happen because it still fit the definition of marriage. Changing the law to accomodate homosexual marriage is changing the definition of marriage. I don't know of any other country who is changing their definitions of marriage, yet we are the only ones who are discriminatory??

Submitted by Teresah on Sat, 11/08/2008 - 01:17

"I cannot marry my mother.

"I cannot marry my mother. Domestic Partnerships were set up to
specifically give homosexual couples the exact same rights as
heterosexual married couples while leaving the definition of marriage
intact."

No, sorry, the argument that Domestic Partnerships provide equal rights is false. Setting aside the federal angle, that no federal tax benefits are provided and I am unable to have my boyfriend of eight years immigrate here, DP law also requires that the two people cohabitate, which a marriage does not require. So if I have a Domestic Partnership. and I get placed in Los Angeles on a long-term contract, if my boyfriend stays in San Francisco, our partnership is dissolved. Marriages can actually be confidential: the only public record is that an individual got married on a certain day. The public record doesn't even have to mention your spouse or location. Domestic partnerships are public record - who your partner is and where you live, all public. And DOMA aside, a gay marriage recognized by the state would have to be recognized by all stats under Article IV, Section 1 of the United States Supreme Court.

"I will agree that changing the laws to allow interracial weddings
needed to happen because it still fit the definition of marriage.
Changing the law to accomodate homosexual marriage is changing the
definition of marriage. I don't know of any other country who is
changing their definitions of marriage, yet we are the only ones who
are discriminatory??"

You don't? OK, there''s the Netherlands, Belgium, Canada, Norway, South Africa and Spain. Oh, and the United States. If you go back hundreds of years, same-sex unions existed in Japan and same-sex marriage - named as such - existed in the Roman Empire up until about 360AD. The idea that this is something new and radical is false.

Submitted by Buffalo on Sun, 11/09/2008 - 05:56

Then let's change the Domestic Partnership
Laws!

Wouldn't that be easier than trying to drag people kicking and screaming to change the marriage definition? I am certain that the people in defense of the current definition of marriage would happily endorse the changing of the DP laws. Even if not all of them come on board for that, you will certainly get a majority vote on it. In addition to that, you could certainly hold a marriage ceremony with your family and friends, after all that is what heterosexual couples do. The point of a ceremony is to witness the committment of a couple so that can not only celebrate that couple, but to say that they witnessed the committment and will do what they can to help hold that couple accountable to keep their committment. Admittedly, not many people realize this and if they did, they are not inclined to accept that responsibilty.

As for the other countries, I am certain that you are more informed on which countries have same-sex marriages more than I am, which is why I made the statement that I did. Thank you for the information, I will check it out.

Submitted by Teresah on Mon, 11/10/2008 - 11:51

Soft Racism, Indeed

The idea that Black folks, by nature of being the objects of discrimination, would automatically have some sort of "second sight" to the bias faced by others is the ultimate in "soft racism." It denies Black people their humanity, as individuals, who are subject tothe same human emotions, fears, and privilege blindness as anyone else. We are not "Noble Savages" who rise above the phobias faced by everyone else. Dan Savage and others who feel especially "betrayed" by Blacks are objectifying Blacks as a monolith. And there are, in fact, plenty of bloggers and commenters to blogs who are implicitly and explicitly "blaming" Blacks for the passage of these initiatives.

Building coalitions and being more politically savvy is not blaming the victim: It is simple pragmatic reality.

Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast

Submitted by Yvette Perry on Sat, 11/08/2008 - 09:15

I thought that blacks being

I thought that blacks, being targets of racism for so long, and still targets of racism to this day, would be that much more sensitive to the damage that discrimination causes.

Evidently, I was mistaken, and you're right blacks can be just as biased, as racist, and as bigoted as whites.

If you want to say that I, and others, who thought that blacks would be more sensitive about discrimination, are racists, soft or otherwise, then there is nothing more to discuss.

Submitted by shelleyp on Sat, 11/08/2008 - 11:16

Yes, I believe you were

mistaken. Just as any other "model minority" stereotype is damaging to the indiivduals it supposedly compliments, this idea that the experience of past and current racism is an innoculation against bias in all its forms is harmful.

Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast

Submitted by Yvette Perry on Sun, 11/09/2008 - 05:37

Shelly - it's not about saying you are
racist.

The idea is racist. Not you, but the idea that you have expressed.

Obviously whenever anyone thinks they are being judged as 'a racist,' that's the end of the conversation.

Please consider this: The idea that a race of people would behave ANY particular way based on their shared racial experience is prejudicial. No matter who says it. Whether the purported trait is positive or negative (e.g.: blacks are so hard-working is as problematic as blacks are so lazy.) It's also inaccurate, because not every black person has experienced the same level of prejudice or for the same reasons. There is priviledge within black communities. Black people are prejudiced toward each others and other groups as well. Just like poor people, and queer people, and women, and immigrants and anyone who has experienced any identity-based oppression and hardship.

Black people have become a kind of poster child for oppression, and people forget that there is as much range in our experiences as any other group. So that brings us back to the fact that this:

I thought that blacks, being targets of racism for so long, and still
targets of racism to this day, would be that much more sensitive to the
damage that discrimination causes.

...is an idea that is racially prejudicial. It's not about you as a person but the idea you (and many, many other well-meaning people) have expressed. That idea is... well, I won't use the ugly 'R' word. But it means the same thing.

Assumptions, Biases & Irrational Fantasies

Submitted by Atena on Sun, 11/09/2008 - 06:00

I have to disagree with you,

I have to disagree with you, Atena.

My comment may have been an over-generalization, but it wasn't negative or condemning in nature, which is what the definition of "racist" implies. It might be considered discriminatory, because I was referencing the black people, generally, but even "discrimination", as a popular term, is typically only used in cases where one applies an action that is meant to assign preferentiality to one group over another.

Except, in a way, I was assigning a preferentiality to a people: I was according the black people, as a community, a higher degree of empathy about discrimination, based on my perceptions that black people have suffered discrimination more than any other "group" as a whole in this country. It was actually meant to be a compliment, but I now realize that it could also be taken to mean that blacks were _more_ wrong to have voted for Proposition 8 than whites who did the same. Now that was _not_ my intention, but the effect would be the same, and for that, I do most sincerely apologize.

Unfortunately, though, my ill-thought over-generalization has also side tracked this discussion, which is really focused at the fact that, in California, the black voters overwhelmingly supported a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. And I still stand by my belief that one shouldn't need to form a "coalition" in order to support civil rights. All civil rights.

Submitted by shelleyp on Sun, 11/09/2008 - 08:04

That's pretty much it.

You said:

Except, in a way, I was assigning a preferentiality to a people: I was
according the black people, as a community, a higher degree of empathy
about discrimination, based on my perceptions that black people have
suffered discrimination more than any other "group" as a whole in this
country. It was actually meant to be a compliment, but I now realize
that it could also be taken to mean that blacks were _more_ wrong to
have voted for Proposition 8 than whites who did the same. Now that was
_not_ my intention, but the effect would be the same, and for that, I
do most sincerely apologize.

And that's it. Thank you for engaging in the discussion and recognizing this. Prejudice that pays a compliment is still prejudice, and it is ultimately damaging.

I agree that civil rights should be supported unequivocally by everyone. This would be a reasonable expectation if everyone shared the same belief system and the same understanding of what is right and wrong and why. Unfortunately it's never been that way and there was no reason to expect it to be that way with Prop 8. People have always had to lobby members of their own communities and reach out beyond their own communities for support in civil rights issues, because there are always some people don't want to take the risk of drawing attention to themselves, or they feel they have more to lose. Or they don't agree with the priorities set forth.

We can't assume that anyone's hearts and minds are aligned with our own, especially if we don't build relationships with them. In relationships, we have opportunities to appreciate different perspectives and possibly change minds. That's why relationships, coalitions, outreach, whatever you call it will always be the way to do successful activist work.

Assumptions, Biases & Irrational Fantasies

Submitted by Atena on Sun, 11/09/2008 - 12:19

Please do not generalize

Shelleyp, I think I understand what you are saying, but not every black person is the same - thinks the same, acts the same and has the same value system.

All human beings can be racist, sexist, classist, ageist and homophobic, regardless of color. I assume you are being a bit sarcastic with your response so I don't really think I need to tell you that this is pretty much common sense.

Some PEOPLE are able to learn from the hurt that they have experienced and do not want to judge others the way how they have been negatively judged. Some do not, as it makes people feel better about themselves to hurt others.

I've been reading a number of blogs since I wrote this post that leads me to beleive that based on statistical evidence the assumption that African-American voters in California were not the cause of the demise of Proposition 8. Yes, an uncomfortable amount of people did, and we need to look at that very seriously.

As Yvette says, blacks are not a monolitic group. I really wish people would get that through their thick, ignorant heads. However, many have shared life experiences, but so do whites. Latinos, Asians and other cultural / ethnic people. Plus, many of the racist incidences that myself and many of my black friends and aquaintences have had have been perpetrated by white people.

Does that give me the justification to make sweeping generalizations about every white person I come across? No. It's not logical and it's lazy. Sometimes when I feel fustrated might think that (LOL) but I would never write an article for a national publication like Savage, knowing that it would be read by hundreds of thousands of people.

I could go on and on but I'll stop here.

Contributing Editor - Race, Ethnicity & Culture

Writing is Fighting: www.lainad.typepad.com

Submitted by lainad on Sat, 11/08/2008 - 11:41