Racism in the Health Care Debate
by lainadA couple of weeks ago I was chillin' with some folks at a metal show in Brooklyn. I was chatting with a fellow music writer whom I greatly respect and as far as I can remember, I was telling her about my sudden fascination with the writer Cormac McCarthy.
Having read The Road and at the time I had just started Blood Meridian, I was talking about my interest in the human condition. I said that it seemed as though human beings were only socially conditioned to act in a civil manner. That given the opportunity, humans would ravage, sodomize and kill each other in a heartbeat.
The writer (whom, again, I greatly admire and hoped that she liked me) looked at me as though I had just lost my mind.
However, by looking at the recent incidences at various Town Hall meetings in America, I think I was proven right. As a Canadian, living in a country where supposedly, our health care system is far superior than our southern neighbors, I cannot speak on the intricacies of the situation, I can only speak on what I have gathered, through watching countless hours of CNN and yes, reading blogs.
Thankfully, the disturbing observations I have had on what I have seen have been proven as somewhat accurate, most recently, through author Tim Wise's piece on CNN that was posted on Racialicious. Wise says that people, like the white dude who ripped up the picture of Rosa Parks that a black woman held in her hands - is not necessarily racist, "but there is a lot of background noise of the hostility that I think is about that I would call white racial resentment."
Wise discusses the above incident, noting that the majority white crowd applauded when the black protester was hauled off. Also, there were people in the crowd at the Missouri-based meeting that were carrying signs that called President Obama (yes the black man y'all voted for) a N@#ger. But, why, oh ye faithful readers, did race even become a factor in this dogfight?
And why are folks so pissed?
Well, the proposed heath care system looks at cutting the fat, the fat that doctors have been laying on thick for decades. As a doctor interviewed on CNN said quite recently, the majority of surgeries and medication that has been dolled out is 85% for aliments, that if Jim Bob got off his fat ass and put the cigarettes and the Thunderbird down and got on the treadmill, would be unnecessary. Basically, if people took care of themselves, the health care system would not be in the dire straits that it is in now.
But it also means that those who are currently paying for health care, might not get all the services they are paying big bucks for. More services would be given to low-income people and that has brought up the horrible, terrible S-word. Socialist.
And in this case, socialist=black people. After all, we are the ones who are uneducated, lazy, stupid and are always looking for handouts, right? Oh, and because your President happens to be half-black, means that the health care proposal means that he is secretly trying to revitalize the Black Panther movement! Hide your daughters! But wait a minute......he's Hitler! Yes, a biracial Hitler who will conspire with those Confederate-hatin' Liberals (umm, Democrats) to overthrow the good and pure white race!
Enough of my diatribe. You have to check out Jane Devlin's blog, where she discusses the recent events (where stupid idiots showed up at town Halls with guns) and ties them back to the gun debate:
Guns were not displayed for President Carter, who was far more liberal than Obama, and who led this country during a time of double-digit inflation, high interest rates, and oil shortages. Nor were they brought out for President Clinton, even while the right-wing was working very hard to have him impeached. And even when the majority of the country disagreed with the war in Iraq, no one brought guns to the protests. So I have to ask why now, why with Obama?
I am not a knee-jerk reactionary when it comes to issues of culture and race, but the arguments made by the mobs in defense of their atrocious behavior simply don’t wash. They seem to be using the issue of health care reform to express an anger that goes deeper than mere politics or philosophy, and there is a maliciousness to their public gun toting that goes far beyond debate and protest.
Desert Beacon who writes about politics from their Nevada perch, looks at the arguments that blame the Mex-i-cans for their troubles. After all, if they stopped having babies and entered the country legally, all would be good in the world, right?
It's evident from both the controversy over the Sotomayor confirmation and the health care reform debate, that those who hold racist views will often seek to portray themselves as the victim. “I will be castigated if I express my belief in the superior social and economic attributes of white America.” Therefore, the individual argues, that by advocating for the inclusion of non-whites in the American community, “You are a racist if you call me one.” This is an extremely untenable, illogical, and fundamentally emotional contention; but, a common one nonetheless.
Yvonne R. Davis writes via The Huffington Post that while the flames of racial hatred are high, she quotes professor John Dovidio whom believes that many white folks don't even believe what they are doing is racist.... They just scurred.
Instead, what he sees is a fight by whites desperately struggling to defend and maintain their position and status in America before it goes down the tubes to blacks and other colored people. "I don't think we are at the point of hate yet," Says the author of more than 250 academic research articles on racial discrimination. "I see it as a kind of threat. People are sensitive to being threatened and it makes them passionate. I don't think most whites articulate it as hate."
I'm not going to pontificate on that one. What I will say, is that at one time I actually had a bit of sympathy for the Republicans - no, not the extreme right-wing nut jobs that are showing up at the Town Halls crying that Obama is going to kill off old people, but I understand the frustration when you think that tax dollars - the ones that you are getting sliced off your paycheque every other week - are going towards those whom you feel are not working as hard as you are. Hell, I'd agree with that sentiment. But those people do not have a specific color.
But I also wish that people would stop being so hypocritical and just call a spade a ...um, spade. You do not have to agree with Obama's policies, but stop creating these stupid comparisons when it is obvious you haven't picked up a book since 7th grade. Obama is not Hitler. Not only is it a great insult to your President - the one that you voted in, but it is also indicative of your penchant to bend reality to your liking.
In Canada our system is pretty good, but when I lost my job earlier this year, I also lost access to medication that basically deterred me from having a hysterectomy. My new job doesn't cover it, so I'm out of luck. Do you see me heading to Ottawa to challenge Prime Minster Stephen Harper with a gun?
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Comments
racism and freedom of speech
That is the hot button isnt it?
I grew up in South Africa under apartheid. (I'm still here, but luckily apartheid is not !) In our all white high school, many of my fellow students saw themselves as being very liberal, and were against racism. In theory. "I'm not racist" they would say. "But you know..." and then you could get ready for something hateful. (Or actually they would say "I'm not racialist".)
There was one student who did not say this. He was honest in his racism, if you can say that. I remember liberal friends saying "Well, its OK because he is being honest. Do you expect him to lie about his feelings?"
That really bugged me. Why is it OK to be honestly hateful? I think what was going on was that they secretly agreed with him, and liked that he was voicing their opinions. But they did not want to speak out themselves.
I appreciated this comment
Sometimes we forget how universal racism seems to be and how easily some of us brush it off, even seem to commend people for being hateful.
Nordette Adams is a BlogHer CE & you can find her other stuff through Her 411.
There are definitely deeper issues at hand
here
I am not a knee-jerk reactionary when it comes to issues of culture and
race, but the arguments made by the mobs in defense of their atrocious
behavior simply don’t wash. They seem to be using the issue of health
care reform to express an anger that goes deeper than mere politics or
philosophy, and there is a maliciousness to their public gun toting
that goes far beyond debate and protest.
I feel like the above sentiment is right on. Maybe these are people that couldn't speak up and say what they wanted to say about the color of Obama's skin during the election, and ever since their hatred has been building. Now it is spewing out like lava from an erupting volcano.
It so saddens me that we can not have a civilized debate on an issue that will impact so many Americans, and possibly improve countless lives. When Obama was elected, I felt proud to be an American for the first time in my life. I mean, really proud. But these town hall meetings are bringing shame to us once again, and giving foreigners reasons to believe some of the negative stereotypes like "gun-toting Americans".
America is a great country, and the freedom to express ourselves is valued above almost anything else, but that doesn't mean we have to express ourselves through ignorance and violence.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Michelle Cantrell
http://venusvision.com
http://www.facebook.com/VenusVision
http://twitter.com/venusvision
Yes, America is a great country
We overlook that our strength, like many things in nature, is improved through diversity not sameness. And as we strive to live up to the higher ideals of our constitution, we hit some bumps, but in the end it should be worth it. Thank you for reading Laina's post.
Nordette Adams is a BlogHer CE & you can find her other stuff through Her 411.
Thanks Masha and VenusVision
Since I have very little knowledge about the intracies of your health care system, I focused on the reactions, but yes, one of the most problematic issues (besides something like 43 million Americans that don't have health insurance) is this ongoing tenous debate about race - but class is also a heady issue that has factored into this particular situation.
I don't buy that 'honesty' crap, either. People KNOW when to keep their opinons to themselves and if someone says something offensive and then uses their supposed moral superiority to mask it, it simply means that they are saying 'yeah, I know I'm stupid and ignorant and racist, but so what?'
Racism is a social construct, devloped so that one group of people can enjoy superiority over another. There is simply no justification for it.
Contributing Editor - Race, Ethnicity & Culture
Blog: Writing is Fighting: www.lainad.typepad.com
Writer: Consequence of Sound:
Wow. Maybe I have my head in the sand
Or maybe it's because I live in a predominately white community. I don't see it. I don't equate socialism with lazy black people. I see plenty of people abusing the system who are white.
I don't see my president as black or white. I couldn't care less about that and get annoyed that it keeps being brought up.
I don't know what the answer is in other areas where people are seeing this. I have concerns about what our president and Congress are doing but race has nothing to do with it for me. Just money.
Money
That's my question as well. I don't understand the money and it makes me nervous. However, I'm pro-healt care reform. Magic money always makes me nervous.
I've met people of all races who abuse the system. I wish race didn't come up so often either but I think when it does come up in a way that could destroy the country, it's important to address it. It's a distraction from an important issue and yet if we ignore the distraction its fallacies are accepted as fact. Maybe our children will do a better job with race than we've done.
Nordette Adams is a BlogHer CE & you can find her other stuff through Her 411.
Thanks for this post, Laina
Since the health care reform protest started, I've been contemplating a post at my own blog on whether America was really ready for a black president after all? I think it was, but a lot of its people weren't and perhaps never will be.
Nordette Adams is a BlogHer CE & you can find her other stuff through Her 411.
Racist -yes ..and more
Absolutely much of the resistance is racist. Intertwined with that is a class issue.
Ms Worthmorethanyou doesn't want to think she is paying for Miss Trailerpark's health care.
PLUS there is an issue of recent immigrants. In my town there are a lot of Russian immigrants. I have heard the same vitriol about "them" getting health-care as others have described on racial lines.
Basically you have the "over here" group of those in power who think that power=value+entitlement, and the "over there" group of the un- and dis- enfranchised.
Anyway, it stinks. People need health care more than insurance companies need record profits, and more than Mr Kissmyrichbutt needs another country club membership.
I think it is all about a wrongly held sense of entitlement that excludes on a number of grounds, race being surely among them.
~~ Contributing Editor, Mata H. also blogs right along at Time's Fool
Please Stop Calling Me Racist
For me, socialism doesn't equate to black people. It equates to an economic system that will take away my choices, my ability to improve my life through hard work, and my beloved country's identity. Please believe me when I say that this is enough to make me hopping mad.
Oh, yeah, and being casually accused of racism every time I try to express my opinion. That kind of ticks me off too.
Nobody's identified you specifically as a
racist, but ...
I suppose I understand your frustration and how the hairs on the back of your neck bristle when the words "racism" and "racists" are used. However, please consider the following.
There's a saying that "the guilty dog hollers loudest." When racism is discussed and its behavior described and no names of ordinary citizens are mentioned, meaning nobody used your name specifically, when concepts of racist shouting like use of the word *nigger* by people in a crowd is evaluated, when racist behavior is discussed such as applauding tearing up a Rosa Parks sign, when acceptance of the spin of public figures like Beck who tells lies saying health care is about reparations for black people is examined, and stupidity from Limbaugh is mentioned, and then someone drops by not to say he or she disagrees with the people in the crowd using the word *nigger* or to declare that she doesn't believe the racist propaganda of a Beck or a Limbaugh, when she drops by only to say "Please stop calling me a racist" and uses coded phrases like "my beloved country's identity" as though the people who support health care reform don't love this country or are not part of its identity, then, well ... I for one wonder what made the person comment just to make that statement.
This post is not saying anyone's a racist simply for throwing around the word "socialist" or because they work hard and want better for their families. This post is more about the racist propaganda and coded language being used to stir people up while misinforming them about health care reform. Furthermore, I think the writer knows socialism is an economic system. She'd probably disagree, however, that her country, Canada, is a socialist country because it has a public health system. Public health care does not make a nation a socialist nation. I'm sure business owners in Canada will tell you that they're still capitalist, and a good economist will tell you that America's current system is not purely capitalist but mixed.
If you're really aganst public health care, if that's all that's making you protest health care reform, then please write your congress member and tell him or her that you want to be excluded from Medicare in the future.
People can call you whatever they like. It's what you answer to that tells us who you are.
Nordette Adams is a BlogHer CE & you can find her other stuff through Her 411. Her opinions are her own and not that of BlogHer, which is nonpartisan.
RE: Please Stop Calling Me Racist
I agree with you. It would seem that if a white person disagrees with what the president is saying, or proposing, then they are immediately considered to be racist when in fact they aren't and never have been.
Black society views ANY disagreement with the current establishment racism. THAT TICKS ME OFF. It is plain stupid to think that white people are not entitled to their opinion, and can't express it for fear of being called a racist. This kind of attitude, in black society,gives black people a bad name.
I can not grow and learn if the only voice that I ever hear is my own! I can not move forward in life if the only path that I am allowed to follow is one that I am told to follow. I AM NOT SAYING that there are no instances of racism in the opinions that are beign expressed today.
What I am saying is that I'm pissed because black society doesn't want to hear what white America thinks even though we are all in this together. There are still some of us who actually know the difference between someone that is voicing an opinion and someone that is voicing hate.
Please continue to voice your opinion. Please continue to give feedback. I may not always like hearing what you have to say, but I do want to hear it.
Author Jessica Angelique
Views expressed daily, & the voice of America is always welcome at http://jessicaangelique.blogspot.com
http://www.jessicaangelique.com
Hmm.
I don't buy that the people tearing up the Rosa Parks signs, calling Obama "nigger," and saying health care is about reparations for black people from slavery are friends of America. But if you want to embrace them as the voice of America, then that's your thing. So be it. Power to free speech.
I'm glad when white people voice their opinions, especially white racists, and because I know how this game is played, I'll say right now, that's a general statement. I didn't call you a racist. When racists rip off their sheets and say who they are, I appreciate it. The honesty lets me know whose house to avoid, with whom I should logically discontinue dialogue and fear for my safety. Also, I know when not to waste my breath. Like Barney Frank says, no point arguing with dining room tables.
I could modify that to say no point arguing with a white sheet. Discourse with some people never pays. Surveillance, however, does. I watch and learn. As was said in the Godfather, "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer." Hard to keep a racist nearby. The stench is unbelievable. Thank God for television and the Internet or in my case down here, windows through which to watch the street and offspring who go to school and come back to tell me what the white kids say their mom or dad said last night about black people or Mexicans or the Viet Namese and how they know it to be true: Daddy said so.
BTW, maybe you missed the memo, but black people have been hearing what white people think for the last 400 years, frequently against our will with mandates to do exactly as we are told. When you reach the 400 year mark of hearing what we have to say, when you can't run from it, then maybe your point will sound more reasonable. If black people had not been willing to listen to white people, America wouldn't be here today.
But black people won't be taking over America, everrrrrrr, so why so twitchy?
Nice of you to come by and support Kaori who wants people to not call her a racist even though nobody knows who she is or why she believes this blog post was directed at her or even if she read the post.
I've got my tissues out now because I'm concerned about some of these white people I see on TV tearing up Rosa Parks signs and screaming "Give us our countyr back." From what I can see there is a growing number of fearful white people running around, losing their sense of self-esteem, terrified that they're losing "their country" since Obama's been in office. Poor self-esteem sucks and the fear that somebody in power can just come in and take your stuff from you--your land, your family, your right to breathe free--well, as a black person, I know all about that kind of fear. It will kill you. So, I hope these terrifed white people will find some stress relief exercises to help them with that. Deep prayer works, which is how we black people ended up writing all those spirituals some white people love so much.
I have another concern, however, since the white people who are yelling Obama is a "nigger" and applauding people like Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck when they tell outrageous lies with a racial spin, who refer to America as "their country" and say they want it back as though someone stole it and the rest of us don't belong here. Who is "we"?
I'm not comprehending you on this "we're all in this together" thing you seem to think these fearful white people believe or may be coaxed into believing, perhaps, after a few doses of Thorazine. Unless you meant that you and them are in something together, perhaps a "white society" that we black people, who apparently all have membership in a separate "black society," according to you, and so are excluded from this togetherness of which you speak.
Nope, I don't buy this idea you're selling that black people don't listen to white people and that black people think anyone who disagrees with Obama is a racist, that white people don't have a right to their opinions. But good on you anyway, Jessica. I'm not sure what you mean, but I give props to anyone who identifies herself, as you did, and doesn't hide behind anonymity when voicing rage. Thank you for commenting here, and if you read the post, then thumbs up for that too.
For the record, I am pro-health care reform, but I've got some issues with the magic money to pay for it. "Show me the money!"
Nordette Adams is a BlogHer CE & you can find her other stuff through Her 411. Her opinions are her own and not that of BlogHer.com.
Socialism is a scare tactic from the
republican party
Since Obama became President manny people ( usually followers of Sarah I have nothing in my brain Palin), have used the word very lightly...before anyone used that word, they must educate them selves, and understant what a means....fear is been implanted in our brains to stop us from getting the benefits we all deserve..It is very sad how when Bush was in office and talked about a war that had nothing to do with September 11; No town hall meetings where disrupted, and only us so called liberals where protesting in the street and 1000 and 1000 of people and our brave soldiers died.. however critisizing our president because he wants to add a public option for more the 44,0000000 million americans is socialism...Lets wake up and read the fine print....thanks; and yes most of the time deep down inside is a litle be of racism... lets Check Ourselves..
"BRAVA... Life is the Result of our Choices..."
Thank you thank you thank you Nordette....
I read the prompt to the "don't call me a racist' comment on my Blackberry while out of town and I just read your response. You said it better than I ever could!
Okay, the Republicans....not all, but those extremists who are using far-right wing propaganda to refute Obama's suggested health care policies are the ones who are using 'socialist' as a not-so thinly veiled way of saying that the policy is going to give undeserving Americans health care. That is what the post is about. I, just like my American comrades are not going to ignore this. As I mentioned before, I understand the hesitancy that some might feel if they think that their hard-earned tax dollars are going to be used in a way that they feel is unfair. BUT Heath care is a human right. Everybody deserves it. And pardon me if this comes off as ignorant, but isn't it better that everyone who is working is covered? Doesn't it better everyone if all people can be as healthy as they can be? doesn't it benefit employers to have the healthiest employees?
What bothers me is that it seems like there is a segment of people who really don't give a shit if some people (yes Mata, this is definitely a class issue) end up dying in the streets...hold on, that happens to people every day. Why not try and make it better? Health care - both in Canada and the US has always been a contentous issue, but I have never seen it so bad as now. this debate has shown us that we in North America are not 'Post-Racial' and that ( while I suspected this all along) having a black president has not swayed the minds of those who refuse to have their minds swayed.
No one is calling you a racist here, Kaori, unless you fit the bill. And if you do, maybe you should check your ideologies.
Contributing Editor - Race, Ethnicity & Culture
Blog: Writing is Fighting: www.lainad.typepad.com
Writer: Consequence of Sound:
Give Me a Break
I am opposed to government-run healthcare not because of racism or classism or any other -ism you want to accuse me of.
I oppose it because I had the "pleasure" of experiencing it for 5 years while my DH was serving in the Army. I NEVER want to again have to endure the long wait times, the total lack of choice in whom to see, the nightmare of trying to get a
referral to a specialist, how routine procedures like a second
trimester ultrasound are simply not done, being switched
to a cheaper but less effective medication, and simply how poor
the overall quality of care provided was.
I may not like the cost of the private health insurance I have now, but it's a ZILLION times better than military healthcare.
Why should we believe that Obamacare would be any better than what the government ALREADY is providing to American military families and veterans?
People, read the damn post
Crimson wife, You are entitled to your opinion. Of course, everyone is not going to be for Obama's healthcare plan. that's a given.
The post was talking about the far-right opposers who are injecting race(ism) and classism into this argument. If you were not at a Town Hall meeting spouting obscenities, I wasn't talking about you. If you were, well........
Contributing Editor - Race, Ethnicity & Culture
Blog: Writing is Fighting: www.lainad.typepad.com
Writer: Consequence of Sound:
I don't hear any proponents
I don't hear any proponents of Obamacare offering any reassurance that it will be better quality than military healthcare is. All I'm hearing is ad hominem attacks on opponents. If you're not in favor of government-run healthcare, then you're racist, classist, a Nazi, a tool of corporate interests, and want people to die in the streets.
And conservatives are the ones being accused of wanting to stifle legitimate debate about the issue...
Your news sources
What do you read and watch on a regular basis? Just curious because this conservatives as victims thing I keep seeing is getting old fast. There's no proof that anyone's done anything to you guys except vote you out of office, a fate that probably won't last for more than another seven years if that long. That's democracy for ya.
Nordette Adams is a BlogHer CE & you can find her other stuff through Her 411. Her opinions are her own, not that of BlogHer.com.
Where is she getting her news?
I think she probably reads liberal social media because as a liberal who does not support HR 3200, I understand what she is talking about.
Crimson Wife's first comment indicated she does not support government run health care because of her experience with military health care is a legitimate reason. Nobody has engaged her in a discussion about her very legitimate reason.
She came back again, with another attempt to discuss government run health care, based on her own experience... and got what type of response?
Granted, the original post is about race, maybe she would receive a different response if she had posted her concerns in a different thread?
CrimsonWife, care to try having this discussion in a different location on BlogHer? Because as a woman who still holds a military ID card... I completely understand your concerns and would be happy to discuss those with you.
~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager
BlogHer is non-partisan but our Contributing Editors aren't. Read opinions from all parties in the News & Politics topic area.
Flamingo House Happenings
'Give Me a Break' she says. I say "Give me a
reason to do that"
"Give me a break." That's how CrimsonWife started her first comment. Her next comment was to whine about what people are saying about the opponents (who I think are mostly conservatives) and she framed it within the context of
Asking for her news sources was a far more valid question than the statement she made that prompted my response.
Don't insult me, Denise. I read what she said about the military, but found absolutely no reason to address that whatsoever. She's complaining about the government health care system with anecdotal personal experience on a post about racist propaganda in the health care debate. You choose to believe she wants to engage people sincerely. I see she comes into a conversation about racist spin on health care and begins her statement with the universal polite version of "F you" aka "Give me a break." That pisses me off! F you means F you no matter how politely it's delivered.
And then, when she's gets a response that tells her to "Read the damn post," she comes back to say the poor, poor conservatives are getting called names. And she further suggests that the points in the main post are not valid by saying it's an ad hominem attack.
If all she hears is a one-sided case of folks attacking people like her then she needs to listen more carefully or examine what it means to be a person like her. It's very telling the number of white people who drop by not just this post but other posts about racism and racists to say "I'm not a racist." Well, if you're not a racist why do you assume anyone is speaking to you or about you if the word "racist" is used? Did you not read the descriptions of racist behavior?
O.K. I'll give CrimsonWife a break here and concede that one description of racist behvior that she may have read elsewhere, if she reads documentation on the psychology of racism, is that subconscious and sometimes conscious racists tend to deny racism even when white people use the word "nigger" and tear up Rosa Parks signs, and so they further lose credibility when they appear not to see the elephant in the room.
But if all she hears is attacks on conservatives, then she can turn on the darling of racist conservatives Fox News and hear opponents to health care couch the battle within the terms of race. If all she hears is people attacking conservatives, then she could read something on race in America written by Pat Buchannan or read Ann Coulter, listen to Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck and she'd see why she was asked what news sources she reads when she comes to a post entitled "Racism in Health Care," but she does not address the facts presented in the post. Instead she says, "Give me a break" as though the facts of racist behavior are not correct in the post or real.
If all she hears is attacks on conservatives behaving like racists and all she has to say is "Give me a break. I stood in a long line," then maybe she's not listening because she spends all her time in a line or maybe she would learn more if she talked to people who don't get to stand in the line at all.
I'd invite her to my house to fill out my private, non-government Blue Cross Blue Shield paperwork and explain to the bean counters why being a woman is not a pre-existing condition, but I don't think she'd like to do that. Plus, I think there's more to the health care debate than my personal experience.
Or I could extend her an invitation to read my blog where I give a list of places to find nonpartisan answers to quesations about health care and to check facts but I think my posts also acknowledge conservative misinformation and so may seem like what she calls an ad hominem attack to her. Perhaps she'll visit BlogHer's tools for the health care reform debate instead, but I don't think facts and tools help when people don't want to listen.
Her issue is not about a lack of facts, her issue is she's had government health care and she doesn't like it. Solution: Go get private insurance. What's stopping you? This post, then, is possibly not about her.
I could have just said, "Excuse me, but I think you're on the wrong post, ma'am." But I don't think she's on the wrong post. I think she saw the title and wanted a fight. If she wanted an honest answer to her question, she would have engaged readers differently beginning with something other than "Give Me A Break" on the first comment. And if she really wanted an answer, then why follow up attacking people on the post further like we're just sitting around attacking conservatives ad hominem. WTF!
Laina's post is about racism and it gives examples of behavior and rhetoric to make its case, which means it's not an ad hominem attack and consequently, anyone referencing the post who read the post is not making an ad hominem attack when they call the people referenced in the post "racists." Furthemore, nobody mentioned any "goddamned Nazis" (Sorry, recently reading up on Inglourious Basterds starring Brad Pitt) unless she's referring to the people drawing Hitler mustaches on Obama's photos. With the way racism deniers in general like to switch stuff around regarding political correctness, however, I wouldn't be surprised if someone wants to chide me for using the adjective "goddamned" before the word "Nazis."
I don't know about Laina, who wrote the post, I just know about me. Just like white people say they're tired of black people complaining, I'm tired of white people walking into discussions about race and trying to to change the subject to what makes them more comfortable.
Eric Holder said America doesn't want to talk about race. Doggone it if the man wasn't right. This post is not about the finer points of health care. BlogHer has posts on the fine points and debate about the bills. What's her motive for asking here instead of there?
Anyway, if you don't like the way alligators smell, don't go to the swamp. And if you want to make it through the swamp with all your limbs intact, don't pretend alligators don't know the difference between the swamp and you. Keep your legs in the boat. Show some common sense.
I think if you come to a post about racism in the health care debate and move forward the way Crimson Wife did, well ...
This reminds me of attempts to switch the post on The Ebony Experiment away from racism and what is racist to a discussion of conservative economics. The motivation to change the subject should be questioned, especially when the person who wants to change the subject could discuss her preferred topic elsewhere on the same website.
Thank you, Denise, for giving me the opportunity to tell you and others exactly why this kind of disingenous b.s. and the tendency to indulge white deflection aggravates the hell out of me.
Nordette Adams is a BlogHer CE & you can find her other stuff through Her 411. Her opinions are her own and not that of BlogHer.com.
I can only debate some of this because in
many ways, I agree
I agree that to come into a post about racist languaging and behavior around the health care debate and not discuss that is deflecting.
I agree that those who don't want to have a discussion about race and health care should probably not engage in the comments of such a post.
But.
I also recognize the fact that some conservatives and libertarians are frustrated because they aren't interested in discussions about race in terms of health care and quite often when looking at liberal media, it really is the only thing visible when conservatives are mentioned.
When I watch my twitter stream, I see an awful lot of people pointing fingers at each other and saying "look at that racist behavior" or "look at that socialist statement" but there's not much real discussion about HR 3200.
That frustrates me. I know it frustrates many of the conservatives and libertarians I know who have yet to utter a racial slur, or a socialist slur. There are very few posts from liberal media of any sort that discuss the specific issues that they bring up, those that are not related to race or class or socialism. They see themselves being painted with a very wide brush.
This has happened for centuries to people of color. It's still happening every darn day and it's still WRONG. But it's also wrong to do the same thing to any other group of people.
I agree with you that the defensive and deflective nature in which people respond to issues of race (and class!) are not remotely helpful to improving relationships between groups of people. I do agree.
I also understand that in some cases it is possible to have both discussions at once. Professor Kim did an excellent job of engaging people in the comments, on both race and economics, in the Ebony experiment post you mention. http://www.blogher.com/ebony-experiment-stop-asking-it-racist?page=1 I told Professor Kim yesterday that I want to be her in my next life. When in fact, I'd like to be her right now. That's why I'm in this thread today.
I want to have the conversation about race and health care reform - all at the same time.
As I've said before, I do not (yet) support HR 3200. I am only about 3/4 of the way through the entire document (it's a monster! have you read it???) and I see many things that worry me. None of those things have a bloody thing to do with race or class. And I am angry by those who are writing, talking, tweeting or in any way attempting to shut down this bill or any discussion of it by using racist or socialist scare tactics or attacks.
When I encounter such behavior, I speak out against it. And then I attempt to have a discussion about the health care proposal itself. (And if I can ever finish reading the entire bill and adding my footnote comments to the pieces that worry me, and the pieces that I like, I will be sharing them so I can get feedback from others about my concerns.)
~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager
BlogHer is non-partisan but our Contributing Editors aren't. Read opinions from all parties in the News & Politics topic area.
Flamingo House Happenings
Professor Kim
I've paid, Kim, similar compliments. But we can't all be Professor Kim just like we can't all be Jesus or Buddha. The good negro vs. bad negro is old as well. But thank you for your otherwise helpful, heartfelt response.
Nordette Adams is a BlogHer CE & you can find her other stuff through Her 411.
You're kidding me right?
No, I guess you aren't.
And this attempt to have a discussion is a fine example of how we fail.
~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager
Flamingo House Happenings
Meaning of "Ad Hominem"
"Ad hominem argument is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or attacking the person who proposed the argument in an attempt to discredit the argument."
Name-calling is an ad hominem attack. It isn't refuting the substance of the opponent's argument but rather attacking his/her character. In today's society, accusing someone of having racist motives is one of the easiest ways to try to discredit him/her.
You pointed to a grand total of 2 incidents (the picture of Rosa Parks that was ripped and one sign with a vulgar racist term) and concluded that this shows opponents of Obamacare are "so p****" because we are opposed to our tax dollars being used to fund "services given to low-income people and that has brought up the horrible, terrible S-word. Socialist.
And in this case, socialist=black people. After all, we are the ones who are uneducated, lazy, stupid and are always looking for handouts, right?"
And I'm saying that's B.S. If 100% of the U.S. population were white, I'd be just as opposed to government-run healthcare. Because I've experienced the horrendously low quality of it when I was a military wife, and I wouldn't wish that on ANY American of WHATEVER race.
I don't watch CNN, Fox News, MSNBC or any other cable television propaganda disguised as "news". I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, or any other talk radio.
Perhaps it's time for YOU to turn off the talking heads with all their spin...
Believe what you want
Maybe my email sent the update on this thread to trash and that's why I didn't even realize you'd responded until now. I'm so over this. I'm over the debates and screaming comments whenever anyone mentions race. I'm over the trash talking too, the folks who open dialogue with phrases like "Gimme a Break" and then claim they don't know why people are pissed off, who walk into forums about racism to declare there is no racism, who insult people and then cry that they are the offended. I'm not the only one who found your approach to this conversation offensive, but instead of your looking at what set off the people of color here, you're busy defending what you said.
I asked for your sources. Silence.
You talk about my two examples. The post has other examples, but two is enough. The news, which you admit you don't watch, has more examples. Looking at how you analyzed what was said tells me a great deal, and no, I don't care to analyze what you said for your benefit.
You disagree and don't believe there's racism in the health care debate. There's no more that I can do for you to illuminate the matter because Laina's post is quite clear. Consequently, I deem this situation to be very much like that of a seeing person trying to describe the color blue to someone blind from birth.
I know there are some people reading this who want conversations to be surgar coated and no anger shown, the truth to be muted and tongues held. I, however, will do you a favor and tell you the truth. This is hopeless. A waste of my time and yours.
PS: I didn't write the main post. So, I'm not sure why you're telling me what I said when it's really what the author of the post said. You're mismatching.
Nordette Adams is a BlogHer CE & you can find her other stuff through Her 411.
But this is so totally off topic.
First of all, single payer healthcare isn't even really under discussion. So the first thing I'd say about your complaint is that, unlike military healthcare, you don't have to take it. So don't. Doesn't that solve your problem? Market forces still work on a voluntary system, so if the government option offers terrible care, people will do something else. Right now, not everyone likes the options they have, so this is proposed to add to them.
But I really don't understand how you got from the original post to this point... I think you brought a lot in with you. It's absolutely a fact that much of the anger displayed by opponents of health care reform is being expressed in racial terms. That, quite apart from the merits of various proposals, is troubling, and worthy of discussion and investigation.
Do you see that?
http://www.blogher.com/blog/she-who
Again, you are not reading the post.
It's the people who say dumbass things that are the ones being vilified. Crimson Wife, remember when Bill Clinton suggested heath care changes? People didn't like it then, either. I think it is a lose-lose situation.
If you can convince me that calling Obama 'Hitler' and calling him a Nigger is somehow legitimate (because he has proposed something you don't like - you resort to gutter insults), I'll eat my words. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT to be legitimately upset if you do not think that Obama's health care plan is not right for you, but as soon as people start playing dirty and making personal insults, that's when there is a problem. Not only are these people showing their ass, they are showing that your country is not as 'progressive' as the Republicans boast that it is.
Contributing Editor - Race, Ethnicity & Culture
Blog: Writing is Fighting: www.lainad.typepad.com
Writer: Consequence of Sound:
To jessica
Your comment What I am saying is that I'm pissed because black society doesn't want to hear what white America thinks even though we are all in this together. really struck me as counterproductive. If we are "all in this together" -- then how are your comments supposed to be helpful? Please help me understand.
I honestly knee-jerked to your references to "black society" -- as though there was only one voice, one opinion one attitude among all African Americans. I find that kind of thinking hurtful -- because every time a group of people is lumped together for criticism like that, whether it is talk about "the gay agenda" or "the liberal media" or whatever, there is always an undercurrent that is not helpful, not unifying, not bridge-building. You may sincerely be unaware of how those words sound.
Oh, and I am not African American, and have felt free to disagree with some of Obama's statements. And I don't feel that "black society" or even one African American friend has thought I was racist for it.
~~ Contributing Editor, Mata H. also blogs right along at Time's Fool
Okay, I read the damn post:)
This is a great post.
First of all, I tend to agree with the notion that people really are socially conditioned to behave civilally. Yep, given the right situation (like raised in the mountains by wolves) we'd all kill each other for preservation. Just my opinion.
Secondly, the white man in the audience who ripped up the poster of Rosa Parks after tearing it from a black woman's hands, is racist. No need to discuss it. If it walks like a duck.
Furthermore, there should be no tolerance for demonstraters that picket with signs, during a presidential visit no less, that have the word N*gger on them. Free speech you say? Hogwash, I say. That is inciting a riot. Seriously. What is wrong with people?
We abuse our rights and keep pushing the envelope. Like the people that are acting within their Second Amendment "rights" to bring a 9mm to a town hall meeting with the president in attendence. They are out of their minds. Maybe, worried about their safety? With that much secret service around, it should be an indicator that they are not a potential target. Hello, anyone home??? There are exceptions to everything. Take your gun to church, the grocery store and out to dinner. In the company of The Chief Executive? Leave it in your pick-up.