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Laina Dawes is a contributing editor for Blogher and is also a music journalist whose writings can be found at Exclaim! Canada and...
 
 
 
 

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Racism in the Health Care Debate

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A couple of weeks ago I was chillin' with some folks at a metal show in Brooklyn. I was chatting with a fellow music writer whom I greatly respect and as far as I can remember, I was telling her about my sudden fascination with the writer Cormac McCarthy. Having read The Road and at the time I had just started Blood Meridian, I was talking about my interest in the human condition. I said that it seemed as though human beings were only socially conditioned to act in a civil manner. That given the opportunity, humans would ravage, sodomize and kill each other in a heartbeat.

The writer (whom, again, I greatly admire and hoped that she liked me) looked at me as though I had just lost my mind.

However, by looking at the recent incidences at various Town Hall meetings in America, I think I was proven right. As a Canadian, living in a country where supposedly, our health care system is far superior than our southern neighbors, I cannot speak on the intricacies of the situation, I can only speak on what I have gathered, through watching countless hours of CNN and yes, reading blogs.

Thankfully, the disturbing observations I have had on what I have seen have been proven as somewhat accurate, most recently, through author Tim Wise's piece on CNN that was posted on Racialicious. Wise says that people, like the white dude who ripped up the picture of Rosa Parks that a black woman held in her hands - is not necessarily racist, "but there is a lot of background noise of the hostility that I think is about that I would call white racial resentment."

Wise discusses the above incident, noting that the majority white crowd applauded when the black protester was hauled off. Also, there were people in the crowd at the Missouri-based meeting that were carrying signs that called President Obama (yes the black man y'all voted for) a N@#ger. But, why, oh ye faithful readers, did race even become a factor in this dogfight?

And why are folks so pissed?

Well, the proposed heath care system looks at cutting the fat, the fat that doctors have been laying on thick for decades. As a doctor interviewed on CNN said quite recently, the majority of surgeries and medication that has been dolled out is 85% for aliments, that if Jim Bob got off his fat ass and put the cigarettes and the Thunderbird down and got on the treadmill, would be unnecessary. Basically, if people took care of themselves, the health care system would not be in the dire straits that it is in now.

But it also means that those who are currently paying for health care, might not get all the services they are paying big bucks for. More services would be given to low-income people and that has brought up the horrible, terrible S-word. Socialist.

And in this case, socialist=black people. After all, we are the ones who are uneducated, lazy, stupid and are always looking for handouts, right? Oh, and because your President happens to be half-black, means that the health care proposal means that he is secretly trying to revitalize the Black Panther movement! Hide your daughters! But wait a minute......he's Hitler! Yes, a biracial Hitler who will conspire with those Confederate-hatin' Liberals (umm, Democrats) to overthrow the good and pure white race!

Enough of my diatribe. You have to check out Jane Devlin's blog, where she discusses the recent events (where stupid idiots showed up at town Halls with guns) and ties them back to the gun debate:

Guns were not displayed for President Carter, who was far more liberal than Obama, and who led this country during a time of double-digit inflation, high interest rates, and oil shortages. Nor were they brought out for President Clinton, even while the right-wing was working very hard to have him impeached. And even when the majority of the country disagreed with the war in Iraq, no one brought guns to the protests. So I have to ask why now, why with Obama?

I am not a knee-jerk reactionary when it comes to issues of culture and race, but the arguments made by the mobs in defense of their atrocious behavior simply don’t wash. They seem to be using the issue of health care reform to express an anger that goes deeper than mere politics or philosophy, and there is a maliciousness to their public gun toting that goes far beyond debate and protest.

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She Who 5 pts

First of all, single payer healthcare isn't even really under discussion. So the first thing I'd say about your complaint is that, unlike military healthcare, you don't have to take it. So don't. Doesn't that solve your problem? Market forces still work on a voluntary system, so if the government option offers terrible care, people will do something else. Right now, not everyone likes the options they have, so this is proposed to add to them.

But I really don't understand how you got from the original post to this point... I think you brought a lot in with you. It's absolutely a fact that much of the anger displayed by opponents of health care reform is being expressed in racial terms. That, quite apart from the merits of various proposals, is troubling, and worthy of discussion and investigation.

Do you see that?

http://www.blogher.com/blog/she-who

BellaSophiasMommy 5 pts

Leeann,

First and foremost I am terribly sorry for the battle you face on a daily basis. I can't even imagine living with diabetes. I lost my grandmother to it and my aunt is in the process of loosing the battle.

What I am worried about is people like you who do need this reform. What scares me it that my money isn't going to go to people like you. I fear that tax dollars are going to pay for silly needless things that I don't always support.

I took a summer job back in 2007 with the Department of Health and Human Services. My job sadly enough was to approve or deny claims that had been sent to my office for further study. I came across a little girl... 7 years old. She had walked home from school with a friend who another group of kids assumed to be gay. Because of this they wanted to shoot this "so called gay child" instead they shot another little girl. This girl was on medicade at the time. I sadly according to policey had to deny a request for her to go to a pediatric plastic surgeon who was going to reconstruct the tissue around her ocular area not because the sevice wasn't covered but because this doctor was out of driving distance by 3 milies. See under policey she was only allowed to go 100 miles. I believe she lived in Albany if I was right and she needed to get to a doctor in the city. After all how many doctor spealize in this area in small towns right? The next file I opened was for a jewish family, with 9 children, (I have nothing against jewish people I am just stating the facts....) they refused to go to a denist within their limits because in their eyes they were unclean. They religion stated to only have other jewish doctors work on them so they too wanted to go over the limited but by a much greater distance and to a specific doctor of a specific orgin. But in being politically correct I had to approve this trip for all 9 children. And did I mention medicade had to provide transportation for all 9 children as well as the mother and father to the appoitment. Do you know how much new york taxis cost! It was in that moment that I was enraged. Here sits a little girl needing eye surgery and I was suppose to be the one to tell her family no she can't have it. Yet 9 children could have had their teeth cleaned 5 minutes from their home by a white or black doctor but that wasn't good enough.

I respect cultral customs believe me I do. I respect the Jewish people and I have a heart for this little African American girl who was hurt. What I dont have tolerance for is a stupid government with stupid polices. And that is why I am unsure but not against reform. I want to know very specific details about this plan. Because if I am going to support it I want to know that people like yourself are going to get the care they need. My point in all of this is that in the end I ended up approving this girls plan... I did loose my job for it but what did I care it was just a summer job between school anyway. At least I did the right thing. In my opinion if you are getting free healthcare should it matter who is touching your mouth? Really honestly, I think God would have been forgiving in this situtation. The government continues to provide care to those who don't need it.... in this case going 100+ miles to a jewish dentist isn't needed when they had a dentist in walking distance. But this is how our government opperates. Need I say more.

BellaSophiasMommy 5 pts

Okay, so I know that many of us wanted to steer away from Crimson's postings simply because she was more so voicing her opinion on why she didn't support government run healthcare instead of the prevalance of racism in the midst of the reform. However, I'd like to touch on something she said. But before I get into that I would like to make a point on this whole Tea Party Issue in the first place..... So here it goes...

I know that Freedom of Speech is something our country should be proud of. I am grateful that we have it by all means don't get me wrong. But like many of our liberties there is always that group of people who seem to abuse those freedoms. Protestors in my opinion are one of them.... not all but just in general the ones I have come across. I am sure that I am probably poisned by the countless protestors I see on a DAILY basis totting signs that read "Soilder = Murderer" or "For every Gay a solider dies." Are you serious? yes, I am. While I don't live on a military post any more I drive onto ours.... Fort Bragg on a weekly basis and see idots like these whom I call protestors. They are protesting the war. In my mind they are protesting my husband and giving him a death threat! I know they aren't literally but you know women and our lack of ability to rationalize at times :)

Anyway, my point is this. Do you think that I am going to run home and tell my husband OMG honey I just had an ephiny today you are a murderer. You are going to one day die because there are gay people in the world and God is going to randomly choose you to bring justice to the gay community. No I wouldn't. That sign isn't going to change my opinion. And to think of it maybe it should because I do not support gay marriages nor do I support the war. So you would think I'd be an ideal canidate to be pursuade by these signs. After all this is the point right?

That is what I hate about these Tea Parties. I don't care if you are for or against Reform. Put down your signs. As we have all been made aware more violence and harm is coming from these things than good. And honestly, I think most americans are like I am. We have our opinions and a silly sign isn't going to sway us. Honestly, find me one person who says they say a sign that a protestor held and it radically changed them. It doesn't. Same thing goes for religion and so forth. If you want to share your faith be your faith don't lay some cheesy track on a table for your waitress to read in private. Most often times that won't bring change.

Maybe I am getting a little off... I do that when I get upset at times. But what frustrates me is reading blogs like this. Nothing against the author by any means. But Tea Parties and other protest such as these only create division. We live in a great country, we really do, and what upsets me is that there are so many great people in this nation who otherwise would be great friends but stupid and yes I believe they are stuipid events such as these are tearing us apart and for the sake of what? So we can turn on the nightly news and just get more enraged at one another because the media is showing some silly mislead white man holding a sign that says Nigger. It only fuels hate. That man probably represents less than .0001% of the American people. I know it is happening and I am not denying it. But what gets under my skin so so so so much is that it is events like these that are getting the coverage.

Why can't we have true town hall meetings. In the military our town halls consist of talking.. of understanding....

Which brings me to Crimson.... She made a valid point about healthcare in which I will close. She isn't against Obama himself she is against reform. I too am against the current HR 3200 but not the idea of Reform itself. I to agree 100% that if this country wants to get a taste of what healthcare is like look to the military. As this is an example of what the goverment wants to establish directly. I am suprised we haven't heard more comments on this in the news. Honestly I can say 100% whole heartdly that the government can have my healthcare because it is crap. Here is just one of many recent events that totally get my about our healthcare plan.... My daughter who was 4 weeks old at the time got trush. I tried getting her into a pediatrics doctor but of course the soonest I could get in was October someting mind you this was back in July. So I had to go an an emergency clinic 5 days later. At this point her thrush was so bad she wasn't eating. This is a serious problem for a 4 week old. I was literally have to force feed her with a syringe at one point. I took her in to see her doctor " and this young man looked at me with a huge smile and said oh, I don't treat infants. Infact I have never even treated a child expect for in my school years!"  I am not sure what I felt more shock, frustration, anger, or worry for my daughter. The man left the room and came back about 45 minutes later to then show me his apple iphone in which he said had some sort of dictionary application where he was able to research thrush. He then left again for about 20 minutes this time and came back. He had to track down a doctor who did treat infants and children to find out how much of a dosage to give my daughter. What he didn't know what that trush goes from mom to baby and back over and over. I a first time mother knew this and had to inform the doctor so the wait began. Needless to say it took so long to get my daughter in that she pretty much forgot how to breastfeed against my best attempts. Now according to stastics my daughter who is on the bottle has a better chance of developing diabetes, getting ear infections and the list goes on. Explain to me how any hospital could honestly even suggesting waiting almost 90 days for an apt!

So you want to know why I think Crimson's responce was important and should not be over looked... because of events such as these. Now this is something relativly minor. Thrush. What kind of healthcare do you think our men and women are getting when they return from war and are plagued with all sorts of mental illness. When our country can't afford to our sevicemen and women the proper care they need when they were injured on the line (at work mind you not) then I can not with any level of trust be willing to invest my dollars into a system I fill will ultimatley fail our people.

I will say in closing that I am 100% for reform just not this one in specific. I apprecaite and respect our President for his attempt at this huge task. I believe that if we, and the government worked together (as we should be doing ) then we could make a great healthcare system that wasn't stripping anyone of their rights as so many believe. I am for equal healthcare. I don't know how anyone couldn't be. When circumstance leaves the hurting in pain I can't just turn my back but that is me. Even for those who society deems doesn't deserve healtcare because they are lazy or so forth. Well in my opinion society has failed them and we need to save them. A man doesn't fall to a great death on his own. Children are raised, they have influence from educators, the community, the church a man just doesn't go astray on his own doing so I don't feel that when he does go astray and abuse the system as so many do... white, black, latino whatever you may please it is our duty to pull them back onto solid ground. And you can't do that if someone isn't healthy. Health is a starting point.

So now that I have voiced my conerns and thoughts. Hopefully, I didn't offend anyone. It wasn't my intention. So please don't take anything personally. The whole heart of my posting wasn't to create more division we don't need anymore of that!

BellaSophiasMommy 5 pts

This is yet just another example of how the news only chooses to show what sells..... I am an O'Fallon, Missouri native where this protest took place. First and foremost can I say that the town of Ofallon is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT a racially divided town. And to suggest so would be ludacrious. Lets not forget it was Missouri who was in the Union! Secondly, what I find appaling is that no one in the news even mentioned that a African American man who was at this town hall meeting was protesting the Health Care Reform. A car of all black men got out of the car and started beating this man. But we don't see that on the news? Why because it was race against race. Only racism sells right!!!! It just pisses me off. This is what I hate about blogging, the news all media outlets people only report what driver emotion. What about the fact that a man who is intitled to support whatever he so may please was beaten for it. This is the problem with society now we are wasting more time reporting on racism than we are on reporting the facts. But this is exactually what our government wants.... lets fire up the people and draw them again one another who cares if it takes the country down bc in the process it focuses the american people's mind on something other than their goverment and in the process we the people loose complete controll of the white house.

I think instead of focusing on stories that divde a people and a nation... maybe you should channel your energy into stories that promote union of people. Unity does exist and I believe it is more ever present than you may believe. Instead of defending just one face or creed why dont you take your power of influence and unite a people... all people.... after all isnt that what Obama stands for... unity not division?

leeannthill 5 pts

I think you've made some great observations.  I'm a white chick who's in favor of HCR because I have 5 1/2 months left of COBRA, and I have type 1 diabetes, so I wear an insulin pump, and I take a drawer full of pills to hopefully keep my organs from crapping out on me.  not that a passed bill will help me out come March 1, but a little hope that my life won't be reduced to a never ending quest for health insurance would go a long way with me at this point.

This is more a response to some of the comments I've read, but I don't really think any reform bill is going to make any one entity completely happy, so everyone is going to have to compromise if this country has any hope of implementing a system, whatever it might be, to ensure that people get their basic health care needs met.  As someone with a health insurance and personal finance crisis on the horizon, I challenge anyone from any industrialized country with government-run health care to tell me they'd choose to be uninsured rather than have a health care plan that may not be perfect, but at least assures you have access to care and won't go bankrupt in the process.  Frankly, you don't know what fear is until you have an incurable disease, and fret everyday that the day will come when you can no longer afford the medicine and supplies that will hopefully keep you from going blind, having a heart attack or stroke, losing your limbs, having kidney failure, developing digestive problems that either prevent you from digesting food, or have you uncontrollably shitting yourself, or if you're really fortunate, both.  Or just dying, which would be easier and cheaper than any of the above.  Hi, nice to meet you.  Welcome to my little corner of the world.

Regarding the post, I absolutely think racism is an underlying issue, certainly not for all individuals enaged in the discussion, regardless of their position, but it's a factor flavoring it.  America has a long history of race issues, needless to say, and just because aspects of it have been outlawed, and just because various practices, like yelling nigger in public (I wasn't aware that had happened, and all I can do is shake my head) aren't considered de rigeur, doesn't mean it's not a factor.  I think a lot of people want to deny it's there because that's easier than having an honest discussion about how it manifests itself, and how it's influencing political discourse.  I also think there's an unfortunate shortage of people who've read anything more than a few paragraphs about the history of US race relations in the pages of a 10th grade civics textbook, if that, and the sociological aspects of racism to have an informed discussion.

Fodder for thought so thanks for posting this.

Lee Ann Thill

The Butter Compartment ( http://www.thebuttercompartment.com )
A Lifetime of Type 1 Diabetes: War, Peace and My Mission to Help & Inspire Others

Nordette Adams 6 pts

Maybe my email sent the update on this thread to trash and that's why I didn't even realize you'd responded until now. I'm so over this. I'm over the debates and screaming comments whenever anyone mentions race. I'm over the trash talking too, the folks who open dialogue with phrases like "Gimme a Break" and then claim they don't know why people are pissed off, who walk into forums about racism to declare there is no racism, who insult people and then cry that they are the offended. I'm not the only one who found your approach to this conversation offensive, but instead of your looking at what set off the people of color here, you're busy defending what you said.  

I asked for your sources. Silence.

You talk about my two examples. The post has other examples, but two is enough. The news, which you admit you don't watch, has more examples. Looking at how you analyzed what was said tells me a great deal, and no, I don't care to analyze what you said for your benefit.

You disagree and don't believe there's racism in the health care debate. There's no more that I can do for you to illuminate the matter because Laina's post is quite clear. Consequently, I deem this situation to be very much like that of a seeing person trying to describe the color blue to someone blind from birth.

I know there are some people reading this who want conversations to be surgar coated and no anger shown, the truth to be muted and tongues held. I, however, will do you a favor and tell you the truth.  This is hopeless. A waste of my time and yours.

PS: I didn't write the main post. So, I'm not sure why you're telling me what I said when it's really what the author of the post said. You're mismatching. 

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ).

PPR_Scribe 5 pts

If there are folks who really want to have conversations that are not race-based about Obama's health care proposals, then please call out those anti-Obama health care plan folks who are using racist imagery, using intimidation tactics such as bringing loaded weapons to his speeches, and the like. It is funny to hear that Black and other folks will not or do not want to listen to what White people are saying. "What White people have been saying" has been the focus of American discourse for most of the history of this country.

I, too, have been a military dependent--twice. In fact I was born in an Army hospital and my spouse was an Army physician. I can tell you that whatever its faults, Army health care was a lot better than what many of the soldiers (especially the lower income ones) would have gotten outside of the ilitary.

Give me a break... Indeed.

 ~~

This So-Called, Post-Post-Racial Life

http://postpostracial.wordpress.com/

Nordette Adams 6 pts

That's my question as well. I don't understand the money and it makes me nervous. However, I'm pro-healt care reform. Magic money always makes me nervous.

I've met people of all races who abuse the system. I wish race didn't come up so often either but I think when it does come up in a way that could destroy the country, it's important to address it. It's a distraction from an important issue and yet if we ignore the distraction its fallacies are accepted as fact. Maybe our children will do a better job with race than we've done.  

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ).

Nordette Adams 6 pts

We overlook that our strength, like many things in nature, is improved through diversity not sameness. And as we strive to live up to the higher ideals of our constitution, we hit some bumps, but in the end it should be worth it. Thank you for reading Laina's post. 

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ).

Nordette Adams 6 pts

Sometimes we forget how universal racism seems to be and how easily some of us brush it off, even seem to commend people for being hateful. 

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ).

Nordette Adams 6 pts

RQ, I wanted to personally thank you for taking the time to read the post. Your headline made me laugh. If there's one thing this thread needed it was a little good humor. :-)

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ).

lainad 5 pts

For your comments.

It's funny Denise and I have to admit, when I read some of your posts from last year about the election, my eyebrows were raised. I am looking from the outside in - his Presidency does not directly affect me as I do not live in America so I beleived that you had more experience and personal reasons as to what was best suited towards your philosophies. If you have structural issues about Obama as a candidate, that is entirely your right. Again, not everyone has to agree on everything and I completely respect your opinion. I am troubled about this discussion, though.

Contributing Editor - Race, Ethnicity & Culture

Blog: Writing is Fighting: www.lainad.typepad.com ( http://www.lainad.typepad.com/ )

Writer: Consequence of Sound:

Denise 9 pts moderator

I actually backspaced RE's name out of my comment for personal reasons that make no sense to anyone who doesn't know her very well. I should have left her name in alongside Professor Kim's and didn't... because of those personal reasons.

I don't think I've ever suggested people who come in and deflect should not be called on that. But, in this particular case - addressing that deflection and including her issues about health care reform could have killed two birds with one stone, couldn't they?

That's what I think Megan was getting at in her reply later on.

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

Flamingo House Happenings ( http://www.flamingohouse.net/ )

Denise 9 pts moderator

This was super helpful. I appreciate you taking the time to share a link.

Now, I have to figure out how to do what I'd like to do with them. Complicated mostly because I need more hours in the day. :-)

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

Flamingo House Happenings ( http://www.flamingohouse.net/ )

Erin Kotecki Vest 5 pts

I was throwing ridiculous questions into the ether because I do think it's insane and because I knew it would annoy Denise. It's true.

Which reminds me that Denise knows me way too well and I need to change my debate tactics on her.

Politics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain ( http://queenofspainblog.com/ )

Denise 9 pts moderator

There was a lot in this post that grabbed me and I don't think I can do much more than pull out pieces of it and explain why those pieces grab me. And, at the end I'll share a concern I have.

given the opportunity, humans would ravage, sodomize and kill each other in a heartbeat.

I am a pessimist at heart... and I truly believe this is true most of the time. I don't necessarily think the Townhalls are an indication of it, any more so than just watching people interact with each other on a regular basis. It's scary out there.

many white folks don't even believe what they are doing is racist....

I believe this as well. Sometimes white people don't realize their actions or words are racist, it's so ingrained in them. But then, there are others, the scary ones, who think that they are entitled or better than. It's those folks that make me the most nervous. And it's those people who we need to work together against.

I have another concern, based on something I've seen more and more people say lately and I think it was Erin who mentioned it in comments (though forgive me for not double checking... I'm running out of time to comment...)

Maybe we weren't ready for a black president after all.

That. Makes. Me. Nervous.

I did not vote for President Obama but I never ever believed we weren't ready for a black president. It never occurred to me that I would hear people say such a thing after he was elected. Regardless of the job he does (or does not do) just saying such a thing makes me ill.

At this point I do not care two bits about the health care discussion. I would much rather we figure out what is tearing us apart so much that anyone in would say such a thing. Or even think it.

It makes perfect sense to me that Americans would have passionate (and yes violent) disagreements over health care reform.

It does not make sense to me that anyone in this country would say "Maybe we weren't ready for a black president."

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

Flamingo House Happenings ( http://www.flamingohouse.net/ )

Nordette Adams 6 pts

Go back and take a look at the Ebony Experiment post. Professor Kim never answered she who shall not be named when she asked PK to engage in an economic policies debate. Perhaps you should ask her why. She's very diplomatic and may not answer, but I can't speak for Proessor Kim.

It was llhaesa not Kim who had the time and patience to discuss taxes on the post. As it turns out, the woman who tried to switch the subject lost interest because Ilhaesa is not black. The deflector's only real interest, I think, was arguging with a black person because her real point was it's an economic issue and not a race issue. This desire to avoid discussions of race is a problem that seems to be a great burden mostly to those who want to declare they have no problem with race.

They keep going into the race discussion room to say I'm not racist. If a sick person kept going to the hospital to say I'm not sick eventually a doctor might say, "Well, maybe you're not the kind of sick we treat here, but you've definitely got a problem." 

If your position is it's best not to respond to people who are deflecting the topic away from racism on a post about racism, then point taken, but that too is a matter of personality and choice in a public forum. And if I and others choose never again to speak to people who drop by to deflect, never call them on it, then where does that get us in the race and racism discussion? Why bother with a race and ethnicity category if while talking race you let people bully those who want to talk about racism into talking about something else? Just delete the category if we're not going to commit to heat and calling a duck a duck.

And how fair is it to expect black people to engage ever so politely specific white people who shall not be named who have shown they favor coded language on race and believe the racist rhetoric of conservative talk show hosts, how fair is it to ask us to keep being nice or just ignore it? Should we play blind or stupid, act like we don't realize what the person said?

I wrote a paper once on the art of dissembling as a black survival tactic in black literature. That was about fictional characters and so not me. I have trouble playing stupid for men who assume they must be on top and dumb for white folks who want to deflect on race.

And if I notice you use one black person in contrast to another black person to make a point, a little red light goes off in my head. It reminds me of how Bill O'Reilly uses Juan whats his face to make his points on race matters.

"Now, Juan, am I crazy? Black people are saying what I said about welfare is racist."

"Uh, no, Bill, that wasn't racist.  You're a good white man."

"Why thank you, Juan." 

Please don't hate me. I know you're not Bill O'Reilly just like I know you know that I am not PK. Maybe if you had said Ilhaesa, I'd feel differently.

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ).

Denise 9 pts moderator

I was just thinking that the back and forth that Erin and I had probably doesn't make sense to people who don't follow us on twitter.

While I try not to speak for Erin, I am pretty sure she was asking a completely off the wall, over the top question and that she does not believe that minorities follow blindly. The question was so over the top that I didn't bother replying to it. She was just trying to annoy me, I'm sure.

As for my comment... I was speaking specifically to Erin in regard to the number of times she tweets about how white the townhall meetings are that she's watching. I was keeping count for awhile, just to try and bug her with it later but I got so annoyed that I stopped counting. So I was pushing her buttons, because I know her well enough to do that.

I think... it didn't quite work out the way either of us intended.

And, by the way, I'm trying to respond specifically to your post but I keep getting lured off by other things and I don't want to do a half-way job of it.

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

Flamingo House Happenings ( http://www.flamingohouse.net/ )

lainad 5 pts

While I'm glad to see such an...um insteresting debate from my post. I'm seeing side of people that I wish I hadn't.  

 Is it because the base of minority voters blindly support anything the first African American president does? Or the base of conservative voters do not, and they just happen to be white?

 Fourth, I can't for the life of me figure out why you find it necessary to call out race so often every day. We can all see who is black and who is white and who is something in between. The point is... what exactly? If a townhall were held in my little town, it would be mostly white. So that says... what? That because I live in an upper middle class village that I'm what... exactly? If my village happened to be mostly anti health care reform, (and I have no idea if they are...) that would mean what... we're white, upper middle class, who voted Obama in the election but...

It takes a lot to render me speechless. But I think I am. I'm going to sip a glass of wine and read both these posts again because the red I see is really blinding me to what I sincerly hope you both are trying to say.

I'm glad that Denise has weighed in on this and my fellow CE's have. Funny, though because none of y'all did before. But thank you for your comments. Greatly appreciated.

Contributing Editor - Race, Ethnicity & Culture

Blog: Writing is Fighting: www.lainad.typepad.com ( http://www.lainad.typepad.com/ )

Writer: Consequence of Sound:

Megan Smith 5 pts

Yes I have read a few opposition positions to the bill that didn't use race baiting tactics.  I don't necessary agree with the points and I haven't had a chance to do fact checking, but for example, here's one of them:

http://keithhennessey.com/2009/08/14/debating-the-... ( http://keithhennessey.com/2009/08/14/debating-the-... )

And I greatly look forward to whatever you might write once you finish reading the entire bill.

Megan
BlogHer Contributing Editor, TV/Online Video ( http://www.blogher.com/blog/megan-smith )

My Personal Entertainment Blog:  Megan's Minute ( http://www.megansminute.com/

My Twitter Handle:  @MeganSmith

Denise 9 pts moderator

I want the health care discussion to take place here, alongside the discussions about race. Which is the only reason I jumped in here today.

We have to be able to have the health care discussion alongside all of the race and culture and political issues that divide us. We can't ignore one part because someone isn't addressing the other.

It would be nice if we were all a little less defensive when we read things that push our buttons. But I'm not holding my breath. :-) I'm trying to figure out how to still have a conversation that is helpful while folks are being defensive (myself included... I'm about to jump into a thin privilege discussion now, oy) because that's the only way I've seen that people will ease up and move to something constructive.

~Denise
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Crimson Wife 5 pts

My reference to opponents of Obamacare being called Nazis did not stem from this particular discussion but rather from something I saw in my local newspaper ( http://www.smdailyjournal.com/article_preview.php?... ).

It's "Godwin's Law" at work.

Crimson Wife 5 pts

<i>I bring it up because what I see when I turn on town halls is angry
white people. IS that fair? I don't know. But I sure do see it. It
scares me.</i>

Were you scared by the "angry whites" protesting the Iraq War a few years ago? I can go to YouTube to find footage of those events, and there were VERY FEW people of color visible...

Crimson Wife 5 pts

"Ad hominem argument is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or attacking the person who proposed the argument in an attempt to discredit the argument."

Name-calling is an ad hominem attack. It isn't refuting the substance of the opponent's argument but rather attacking his/her character. In today's society, accusing someone of having racist motives is one of the easiest ways to try to discredit him/her.

You pointed to a grand total of 2 incidents (the picture of Rosa Parks that was ripped and one sign with a vulgar racist term) and concluded that this shows opponents of Obamacare are "so p****" because we are opposed to our tax dollars being used to fund  "services given to low-income people and that has brought up the horrible, terrible S-word. Socialist.
And in this case, socialist=black people. After all, we are the ones who are uneducated, lazy, stupid and are always looking for handouts, right?"

 And I'm saying that's B.S. If 100% of the U.S. population were white, I'd be just as opposed to government-run healthcare. Because I've experienced the horrendously low quality of it when I was a military wife, and I wouldn't wish that on ANY American of WHATEVER race.

I don't watch CNN, Fox News, MSNBC or any other cable television propaganda disguised as "news". I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, or any other talk radio. 

Perhaps it's time for YOU to turn off the talking heads with all their spin...

Megan Smith 5 pts

First of all, you CEs, y'all know I love you, so lets start from there.  The commenters who aren't CEs, I'll say I respect you even though I don't know you.

Part of what's not being acknowledged here is how black and white people are talking to each other.  Over any issue.  

For example, when I saw the title of Crimson Wife's post, "Give Me A Break," true or not, I immediately got an impression of who she was and where she was coming from.  I read the rest of her post and vaguely thought that what she was saying about military medical care was somewhat legitimate, but I was still pissed off by the "Give Me A Break" so honestly, I was much less likely to be sympathetic with anything else she had to say.  I was ready to dismiss her because she started off by assuming that Laina's post was accusing her of something that it in no way did.

She also gave the impression she hadn't read the post because no where was Laina's post calling any conservatives Nazis, etc.

When I read Denise's first comment suggesting Crimson Wife take her comments about military health care to another BlogHer forum, my gut reaction was, "Oh yeah, all the white women are going to now go in their corner and the black women will stay here.  That's productive!"

It made me angry for two reasons. First of all, this discussion should take place here, but it needs to take place with respect and a willingness to really read what people are writing and seriously, and I do mean seriously, try to put yourself in the other person's shoes.

I then read Crimson Wife's first comment a second time and thought, "yeah, okay, she's making some interesting points."  

What white people need to understand is you can not tell us that race has nothing to do with this health care debate or with some white reactions to Obama when we see photos of the guns at the rallies, when we hear and read first hand accounts of some of the things said at these rallies. 

You just can't tell us that.  

You don't see it or refuse to see it because ultimately it doesn't affect your life.  It doesn't resonate with your history as a black person who grew up in this country, it doesn't resonate with the fear and anger you may have.

But just because it doesn't affect your life, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  It does.  To differing degrees, under different circumstances, but it does.

Is it every white person who thinks this way?  Of course not, but just like black people sometimes have to be less touchy about certain things--no, if it's an all white town hall meeting, that doesn't mean everyone in there is racist, it may just mean it's an all white town--white people need to get over being touchy when we call out white racism. 

We are not all the same.  You are not all the same.  But if you're white you need to be prepared to engage us in a way that gives us respect first and foremost and an acknowledgment of our history.  If that means thinking before you speak or write, so be it.  We teach children to do that, why is it wrong for adults to do that?

Stop being so freakin' defensive!  

Now I've met several white adults who feel they shouldn't have to censor themselves in any way when talking to a black person.  It's too politically correct, it's too hindering to their first amendment sensibilities.  Well, you know what?  If you're serious about having a dialogue with me, you'll do it. 

You won't resent it or think it takes away your rights as an American, you'll do it because you're truly interested in a dialogue.  Just like I'm going to have to hear you out about how you don't want to thrown in the same category with right wing nut jobs, you need to remember where I'm coming from and that I see some of these situations and reactions to Obama from a very, very different perspective than you do.  

And I in know way mean I want white people to be walking on eggshells all the time, not mentioning race at all, being afraid to ask questions or anything like that.  People, there is a middle ground here.  It doesn't have to be all or nothing.  You get a hell of a lot more listening out of someone if you show them, that they've been heard.  It's very basic, and very, very important.

Megan
BlogHer Contributing Editor, TV/Online Video ( http://www.blogher.com/blog/megan-smith )

My Personal Entertainment Blog:  Megan's Minute ( http://www.megansminute.com/

My Twitter Handle:  @MeganSmith

Denise 9 pts moderator

I do not understand why you seem so shocked about the racial and class divisions in this country. Where have you been living that you didn't see it before? Did you think all social and racial and class issues would disappear the day everyone got together to say Yes We Can?

And, do you really and truly believe that HR 3200 should be shoved through? Have you seen our deficit? Have you seen that document? Have you seen what Veteran's Health Care looks like? Do you really believe that all of the folks who are not covered by health insurance now will be well served by any version of the kind of government subsidized or provided health care this country provides right now? Because I don't.

I think the American people deserve better than that (as have Veterans.) Most of those American people are going to be young, old, poor, people of color. They deserve better.

I do not yet see anything in HR 3200 that indicates they will receive the kind of care that they deserve.

See I'm not anti health care reform. I'm anti HR 3200. (So far. And I should quit commenting so I can finish the document and start leaving my annotations on the document.)

~Denise
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Denise 9 pts moderator

I agree with you - if you're holding a sign calling the President a N*****, you're arguments are not going to hold a lot of weight with me. In fact, I'm probably not going to listen at all.

Do you know why people who aren't using racist scare tactics might be opposed to HR 3200? Have you read anything at all that you didn't immediately associate with racism or socialist scare tactics or class attacks? If you have, can you give me a link to just one post or discussion that you've seen that opposes HR 3200 and is not somehow racist or socialist-fear based, or classist?

If you don't have the links, or the time, or interest, I won't be offended. I'm doing a little experiment and asking a bunch of people I know if they can do this.

~Denise
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Denise 9 pts moderator

No, I guess you aren't.

And this attempt to have a discussion is a fine example of how we fail.

~Denise
BlogHer Community Manager

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Erin Kotecki Vest 5 pts

...and wish she would do it more often.

But anyway, here goes:

No. I have not been to a town hall. Yet. However I've read about a million first hand accounts, watched just about every single one of them on TV and youtube and everywhere else. I did see the local coverage of Maxine Water's locally, etc.

I call out race because I find it striking. I truly do. It hits me like a ton of brikes every time how segregated we are. It's just so obvious and right in front of us and THERE, yet we're all so afraid to talk about it.

If my town had a town hall it would be the same. Granted we are one of the only Republican towns in LA County, but it would be white and it would be angry. I really think that is important. Because Maxine Waters town hall wasn't white or angry. It was more 'The President better shove this through' cheering.

What does it say that we're so divided culturally? Is it really just a fluke that support and non support can fall down racial lines? Is it intentional? Unintentional? Because it doesn't just seem over this issue (which is why I brought up the tea party protests) it's been EVERY ISSUE POTUS pushes.
Maybe not with you, but with the masses of protestors.

Is it because the base of minority voters blindly support anything the first African American president does? Or the base of conservative voters do not, and they just happen to be white?

I dont' have any answers. And certainly the media is not helping, which I admitted to in my comment above.

But if you just look at the breakdown, you can't ignore the color line. If it MEANS anything is an entirely different story and one I'm not sure of. I think like anything else it's a little of everything.

Yes, it means something but it doesn't apply across the board.

Politics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain ( http://queenofspainblog.com/ )

Nordette Adams 6 pts

I've paid, Kim, similar compliments. But we can't all be Professor Kim just like we can't all be Jesus or Buddha. The good negro vs. bad negro is old as well. But thank you for your otherwise helpful, heartfelt response. 

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ).

Denise 9 pts moderator

First, I'm not sure what you mean by tea party-esq, so I'll skip that.

Second, have you attended a town hall session? Did you see gun toting people? Signs with racial slurs or socialist slurs pointed at our President or groups of people? (I have not attended but I've driven past one - signs yes, but no N words, yes "this is socialism" signs.)

This morning I read about Kirk's townhall and from all accounts that I can find, it was well attended (packed and they have to schedule more) but non-violent, yet passionate.

Third, don't you know why these are the images that come to mind when we think about this discussion? Because this is what we're being fed by both mainstream media and by social media. The gun at the rally sells papers, draws ratings and page views. The session that has no violence, no racial slurs, no guns doesn't sell.

Fourth, I can't for the life of me figure out why you find it necessary to call out race so often every day. We can all see who is black and who is white and who is something in between. The point is... what exactly? If a townhall were held in my little town, it would be mostly white. So that says... what? That because I live in an upper middle class village that I'm what... exactly? If my village happened to be mostly anti health care reform, (and I have no idea if they are...) that would mean what... we're white, upper middle class, who voted Obama in the election but...

I am not opposed to everything President Obama has ever done or said. You seem to think I "hate Obama" which is inaccurate. (Apparently not voting for him or not agreeing with him means that I hate him?) I am not willing to support HR 3200, at this time. I'm not super mad, but I'm getting there. I'm white. That means what? Exactly?

~Denise
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Erin Kotecki Vest 5 pts

It isn't that people aren't talking about being against a public option or being against the bill or parts of the bill. It's that the discussion about it has been surrounded by the tea party- esq movement's way of protesting.

That way, so we've seen, tends to include a majority of white people and a minority of those nazi signs and gun toters and other things that fall ito a 'militia' stereotype.

Now, is it unfair to stereotype all of those against the bill as racist- absolutely. Is it fair to bring up that race is becoming a part of this discussion- totally.

I bring it up because what I see when I turn on town halls is angry white people. IS that fair? I don't know. But I sure do see it. It scares me.

Then we need to talk about why I feel like I only see angry white people. Is it the media? Is it a true representation of what goes on? Is it my bias as a liberal that is still angry at the angry white people from those McCain/Palin rallies?

And why do I notice they are white? Aren't I not supposed to notice these things? But I do...because it's all I seem to see, which then makes me call it out. Which, in turn, could be considered making a bigger problem.

But then, in my mind, NOT acknowledging that we have this seemingly large population of mad white people who seem to disagree with absolutely ANYTHING the democrats and progressives do, ... to pretend it doesn't matter that they are all seemingly white...is naive.

Either way, it's a valid and interesting discussion.

Throw in a lot of these people yelling about illegal immigrants and welfare mothers... it just gets more interesting.

Politics & News Contributing Editor
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Denise 9 pts moderator

I agree that to come into a post about racist languaging and behavior around the health care debate and not discuss that is deflecting.

I agree that those who don't want to have a discussion about race and health care should probably not engage in the comments of such a post.

But.

I also recognize the fact that some conservatives and libertarians are frustrated because they aren't interested in discussions about race in terms of health care and quite often when looking at liberal media, it really is the only thing visible when conservatives are mentioned.

When I watch my twitter stream, I see an awful lot of people pointing fingers at each other and saying "look at that racist behavior" or "look at that socialist statement" but there's not much real discussion about HR 3200.

That frustrates me. I know it frustrates many of the conservatives and libertarians I know who have yet to utter a racial slur, or a socialist slur. There are very few posts from liberal media of any sort that discuss the specific issues that they bring up, those that are not related to race or class or socialism. They see themselves being painted with a very wide brush.

This has happened for centuries to people of color. It's still happening every darn day and it's still WRONG. But it's also wrong to do the same thing to any other group of people.

I agree with you that the defensive and deflective nature in which people respond to issues of race (and class!) are not remotely helpful to improving relationships between groups of people. I do agree.

I also understand that in some cases it is possible to have both discussions at once. Professor Kim did an excellent job of engaging people in the comments, on both race and economics, in the Ebony experiment post you mention. http://www.blogher.com/ebony-experiment-stop-askin... I told Professor Kim yesterday that I want to be her in my next life. When in fact, I'd like to be her right now. That's why I'm in this thread today.

I want to have the conversation about race and health care reform - all at the same time.

As I've said before, I do not (yet) support HR 3200. I am only about 3/4 of the way through the entire document (it's a monster! have you read it???) and I see many things that worry me. None of those things have a bloody thing to do with race or class. And I am angry by those who are writing, talking, tweeting or in any way attempting to shut down this bill or any discussion of it by using racist or socialist scare tactics or attacks.

When I encounter such behavior, I speak out against it. And then I attempt to have a discussion about the health care proposal itself. (And if I can ever finish reading the entire bill and adding my footnote comments to the pieces that worry me, and the pieces that I like, I will be sharing them so I can get feedback from others about my concerns.)

~Denise
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Nordette Adams 6 pts

"Give me a break." That's how CrimsonWife started her first comment. Her next comment was to whine about what people are saying about the opponents (who I think are mostly conservatives) and she framed it within the context of

All I'm hearing is ad hominem attacks on opponents. If you're not in favor of government-run healthcare, then you're racist, classist, a Nazi, a tool of corporate interests, and want people to die in the streets.

Asking for her news sources was a far more valid question than the statement she made that prompted my response.

Don't insult me, Denise. I read what she said about the military, but found absolutely no reason to address that whatsoever. She's complaining about the government health care system with anecdotal personal experience on a post about racist propaganda in the health care debate. You choose to believe she wants to engage people sincerely. I see she comes into a conversation about racist spin on health care and begins her statement with the universal polite version of "F you" aka "Give me a break."  That pisses me off!  F you means F you no matter how politely it's delivered.

And then, when she's gets a response that tells her to "Read the damn post," she comes back to say the poor, poor conservatives are getting called names. And she further suggests that the points in the main post are not valid by saying it's an ad hominem attack.

If all she hears is a one-sided case of folks attacking people like her then she needs to listen more carefully or examine what it means to be a person like her. It's very telling the number of white people who drop by not just this post but other posts about racism and racists to say "I'm not a racist." Well, if you're not a racist why do you assume anyone is speaking to you or about you if the word "racist" is used?  Did you not read the descriptions of racist behavior?

O.K. I'll give CrimsonWife a break here and concede that one description of racist behvior that she may have read elsewhere, if she reads documentation on the psychology of racism, is that subconscious and sometimes conscious racists tend to deny racism even when white people use the word "nigger" and tear up Rosa Parks signs, and so they further lose credibility when they appear not to see the elephant in the room.

But if all she hears is attacks on conservatives, then she can turn on the darling of racist conservatives Fox News and hear opponents to health care couch the battle within the terms of race. If all she hears is people attacking conservatives, then she could read something on race in America written by Pat Buchannan or read Ann Coulter, listen to Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck and she'd see why she was asked what news sources she reads when she comes to a post entitled "Racism in Health Care," but she does not address the facts presented in the post. Instead she says, "Give me a break" as though the facts of racist behavior are not correct in the post or real.

If all she hears is attacks on conservatives behaving like racists and all she has to say is "Give me a break. I stood in a long line," then maybe she's not listening because she spends all her time in a line or maybe she would learn more if she talked to people who don't get to stand in the line at all.

I'd invite her to my house to fill out my private, non-government Blue Cross Blue Shield paperwork and explain to the bean counters why being a woman is not a pre-existing condition, but I don't think she'd like to do that. Plus, I think there's more to the health care debate than my personal experience.

Or I could extend her an invitation to read my blog where I give a list of places to find nonpartisan answers to quesations about health care and to check facts but I think my posts also acknowledge conservative misinformation and so may seem like what she calls an ad hominem attack to her. Perhaps she'll visit BlogHer's tools for the health care reform debate instead, but I don't think facts and tools help when people don't want to listen.

Her issue is not about a lack of facts, her issue is she's had government health care and she doesn't like it. Solution: Go get private insurance. What's stopping you? This post, then, is possibly not about her.

I could have just said, "Excuse me, but I think you're on the wrong post, ma'am." But I don't think she's on the wrong post. I think she saw the title and wanted a fight. If she wanted an honest answer to her question, she would have engaged readers differently beginning with something other than "Give Me A Break" on the first comment. And if she really wanted an answer, then why follow up attacking people on the post further like we're just sitting around attacking conservatives ad hominem. WTF!

Laina's post is about racism and it gives examples of behavior and rhetoric to make its case, which means it's not an ad hominem attack and consequently, anyone referencing the post who read the post is not making an ad hominem attack when they call the people referenced in the post "racists." Furthemore, nobody mentioned any "goddamned Nazis" (Sorry, recently reading up on Inglourious Basterds starring Brad Pitt) unless she's referring to the people drawing Hitler mustaches on Obama's photos. With the way racism deniers in general like to switch stuff around regarding political correctness, however, I wouldn't be surprised if someone wants to chide me for using the adjective "goddamned" before the word "Nazis."

I don't know about Laina, who wrote the post, I just know about me. Just like white people say they're tired of black people complaining, I'm tired of white people walking into discussions about race and trying to to change the subject to what makes them more comfortable.

Eric Holder said America doesn't want to talk about race. Doggone it if the man wasn't right. This post is not about the finer points of health care. BlogHer has posts on the fine points and debate about the bills. What's her motive for asking here instead of there?

Anyway, if you don't like the way alligators smell, don't go to the swamp. And if you want to make it through the swamp with all your limbs intact, don't pretend alligators don't know the difference between the swamp and you. Keep your legs in the boat. Show some common sense.   

I think if you come to a post about racism in the health care debate and move forward the way Crimson Wife did, well ... 

This reminds me of attempts to switch the post on The Ebony Experiment away from racism and what is racist to a discussion of conservative economics. The motivation to change the subject should be questioned, especially when the person who wants to change the subject could discuss her preferred topic elsewhere on the same website.

Thank you, Denise, for giving me the opportunity to tell you and others exactly why this kind of disingenous b.s. and the tendency to indulge white deflection aggravates the hell out of me.   

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ). Her opinions are her own and not that of BlogHer.com.

Denise 9 pts moderator

I think she probably reads liberal social media because as a liberal who does not support HR 3200, I understand what she is talking about.

Crimson Wife's first comment indicated she does not support government run health care because of her experience with military health care is a legitimate reason. Nobody has engaged her in a discussion about her very legitimate reason.

She came back again, with another attempt to discuss government run health care, based on her own experience... and got what type of response?

Granted, the original post is about race, maybe she would receive a different response if she had posted her concerns in a different thread?

CrimsonWife, care to try having this discussion in a different location on BlogHer? Because as a woman who still holds a military ID card... I completely understand your concerns and would be happy to discuss those with you.

~Denise
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Megan Smith 5 pts

I also read the post, and Laina I wholeheartedly agree with your conclusions. 

The people against Obama's health care policies would earn a whole lot more credibility if their arguments weren't accompanied by tried and true KKK-like intimidation tactics. 

Megan
BlogHer Contributing Editor, TV/Online Video ( http://www.blogher.com/blog/megan-smith )

My Personal Entertainment Blog:  Megan's Minute ( http://www.megansminute.com/

My Twitter Handle:  @MeganSmith

Nordette Adams 6 pts

What do you read and watch on a regular basis? Just curious because this conservatives as victims thing I keep seeing is getting old fast. There's no proof that anyone's done anything to you guys except vote you out of office, a fate that probably won't last for more than another seven years if that long. That's democracy for ya. 

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ). Her opinions are her own, not that of BlogHer.com.

Nordette Adams 6 pts

I don't buy that the people tearing up the Rosa Parks signs, calling Obama "nigger," and saying health care is about reparations for black people from slavery are friends of America. But if you want to embrace them as the voice of America, then that's your thing. So be it. Power to free speech.

I'm glad when white people voice their opinions, especially white racists, and because I know how this game is played, I'll say right now, that's a general statement. I didn't call you a racist. When racists rip off their sheets and say who they are, I appreciate it. The honesty lets me know whose house to avoid, with whom I should logically discontinue dialogue and fear for my safety. Also, I know when not to waste my breath. Like Barney Frank says, no point arguing with dining room tables.

I could modify that to say no point arguing with a white sheet. Discourse with some people never pays.  Surveillance, however, does. I watch and learn. As was said in the Godfather, "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer." Hard to keep a racist nearby. The stench is unbelievable. Thank God for television and the Internet or in my case down here, windows through which to watch the street and offspring who go to school and come back to tell me what the white kids say their mom or dad said last night about black people or Mexicans or the Viet Namese and how they know it to be true: Daddy said so.

BTW, maybe you missed the memo, but black people have been hearing what white people think for the last 400 years, frequently against our will with mandates to do exactly as we are told. When you reach the 400 year mark of hearing what we have to say, when you can't run from it, then maybe your point will sound more reasonable. If black people had not been willing to listen to white people, America wouldn't be here today. 

But black people won't be taking over America, everrrrrrr, so why so twitchy? 

Nice of you to come by and support Kaori who wants people to not call her a racist even though nobody knows who she is or why she believes this blog post was directed at her or even if she read the post.

I've got my tissues out now because I'm concerned about some of these white people I see on TV tearing up Rosa Parks signs and screaming "Give us our countyr back." From what I can see there is a growing number of fearful white people running around, losing their sense of self-esteem, terrified that they're losing "their country" since Obama's been in office. Poor self-esteem sucks and the fear that somebody in power can just come in and take your stuff from you--your land, your family, your right to breathe free--well, as a black person, I know all about that kind of fear. It will kill you. So, I hope these terrifed white people will find some stress relief exercises to help them with that. Deep prayer works, which is how we black people ended up writing all those spirituals some white people love so much.

I have another concern, however, since the white people who are yelling Obama is a "nigger" and applauding people like Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck when they tell outrageous lies with a racial spin, who refer to America as "their country" and say they want it back as though someone stole it and the rest of us don't belong here. Who is "we"?

I'm not comprehending you on this "we're all in this together" thing you seem to think these fearful white people believe or may be coaxed into believing, perhaps, after a few doses of Thorazine. Unless you meant that you and them are in something together, perhaps a "white society" that we black people, who apparently all have membership in a separate "black society," according to you, and so are excluded from this togetherness of which you speak.

Nope, I don't buy this idea you're selling that black people don't listen to white people and that black people think anyone who disagrees with Obama is a racist, that white people don't have a right to their opinions. But good on you anyway, Jessica.  I'm not sure what you mean, but I give props to anyone who identifies herself, as you did, and doesn't hide behind anonymity when voicing rage. Thank you for commenting here, and if you read the post, then thumbs up for that too.

For the record, I am pro-health care reform, but I've got some issues with the magic money to pay for it.  "Show me the money!" 

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ). Her opinions are her own and not that of BlogHer.com.

raisedqueer 5 pts

This is a great post.

First of all, I tend to agree with the notion that people really are socially conditioned to behave civilally. Yep, given the right situation (like raised in the mountains by wolves) we'd all kill each other for preservation. Just my opinion.

Secondly, the white man in the audience who ripped up the poster of Rosa Parks after tearing it from a black woman's hands, is racist. No need to discuss it. If it walks like a duck.

Furthermore, there should be no tolerance for demonstraters that picket with signs, during a presidential visit no less, that have the word N*gger on them. Free speech you say? Hogwash, I say. That is inciting a riot. Seriously. What is wrong with people?

We abuse our rights and keep pushing the envelope. Like the people that are acting within their Second Amendment "rights" to bring a 9mm to a town hall meeting with the president in attendence. They are out of their minds. Maybe, worried about their safety? With that much secret service around, it should be an indicator that they are not a potential target. Hello, anyone home??? There are exceptions to everything. Take your gun to church, the grocery store and out to dinner. In the company of The Chief Executive? Leave it in your pick-up.

Mata H 5 pts

Your comment What I am saying is that I'm pissed because black society doesn't want to hear what white America thinks even though we are all in this together. really struck me as counterproductive. If we are "all in this together" -- then how are your comments supposed to be helpful? Please help me understand.

I honestly knee-jerked to your references to "black society" -- as though there was only one voice, one opinion one attitude among all African Americans. I find that kind of thinking hurtful -- because every time a group of people is lumped together for criticism like that, whether it is talk about "the gay agenda" or "the liberal media" or whatever, there is always an undercurrent that is not helpful, not unifying, not bridge-building. You may sincerely be unaware of how those words sound.

Oh, and I am not African American, and have felt free to disagree with some of Obama's statements. And I don't feel that "black society" or even one African American friend has thought I was racist for it.

~~ Contributing Editor, Mata H. also blogs right along at Time's Fool ( http://timesfool.blogspot.com )

lainad 5 pts

It's the people who say dumbass things that are the ones being vilified.  Crimson Wife, remember when Bill Clinton suggested heath care changes? People didn't like it then, either. I think it is a lose-lose situation.

If you can convince me that calling Obama 'Hitler' and calling him a Nigger is somehow legitimate (because he has proposed something you don't like - you resort to gutter insults), I'll eat my words. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT to be legitimately upset if you do not think that Obama's health care plan is not right for you, but as soon as people start playing dirty and making personal insults, that's when there is a problem. Not only are these people showing their ass, they are showing that your country is not as 'progressive' as the Republicans boast that it is.  

Contributing Editor - Race, Ethnicity & Culture

Blog: Writing is Fighting: www.lainad.typepad.com ( http://www.lainad.typepad.com/ )

Writer: Consequence of Sound:

Crimson Wife 5 pts

I don't hear any proponents of Obamacare offering any reassurance that it will be better quality than military healthcare is. All I'm hearing is ad hominem attacks on opponents. If you're not in favor of government-run healthcare, then you're racist, classist, a Nazi, a tool of corporate interests, and want people to die in the streets.

And conservatives are the ones being accused of wanting to stifle legitimate debate about the issue...

lainad 5 pts

Crimson wife, You are entitled to your opinion. Of course, everyone is not going to be for Obama's healthcare plan. that's a given.

The post was talking about the far-right opposers who are injecting race(ism) and classism into this argument. If you were not at a Town Hall meeting spouting obscenities, I wasn't talking about you. If you were, well........ 

Contributing Editor - Race, Ethnicity & Culture

Blog: Writing is Fighting: www.lainad.typepad.com ( http://www.lainad.typepad.com/ )

Writer: Consequence of Sound:

Crimson Wife 5 pts

I am opposed to government-run healthcare not because of racism or classism or any other -ism you want to accuse me of.

I oppose it because I had the "pleasure" of experiencing it for 5 years while my DH was serving in the Army. I NEVER want to again have to endure the long wait times, the total lack of choice in whom to see, the nightmare of trying to get a
referral to a specialist, how routine procedures like a second
trimester ultrasound are simply not done, being switched
to a cheaper but less effective medication, and simply how poor
the overall quality of care provided was.

I may not like the cost of the private health insurance I have now, but it's a ZILLION times better than military healthcare.

Why should we believe that Obamacare would be any better than what the government ALREADY is providing to American military families and veterans?

jessicaangelique 5 pts

I agree with you.  It would seem that if a white person disagrees with what the president is saying, or proposing, then they are immediately considered to be racist when in fact they aren't and never have been.

Black society views ANY disagreement with the current establishment racism.  THAT TICKS ME OFF.  It is plain stupid to think that white people are not entitled to their opinion, and can't express it for fear of being called a racist.  This kind of attitude, in black society,gives black people a bad name.

I can not grow and learn if the only voice that I ever hear is my own!  I can not move forward in life if the only path that I am allowed to follow is one that I am told to follow.  I AM NOT SAYING that there are no instances of racism in the opinions that are beign expressed today. 

What I am saying is that I'm pissed because black society doesn't want to hear what white America thinks even though we are all in this together.  There are still some of us who actually know the difference between someone that is voicing an opinion and someone that is voicing hate. 

Please continue to voice your opinion.  Please continue to give feedback.  I may not always like hearing what you have to say, but I do want to hear it.

Author Jessica Angelique

Views expressed daily, & the voice of America is always welcome at http://jessicaangelique.blogspot.com

http://www.jessicaangelique.com ( http://www.jessicaangelique.com )

lainad 5 pts

 I read the prompt to the "don't call me a racist' comment on my Blackberry while out of town and I just read your response. You said it better than I ever could!

Okay, the Republicans....not all, but those extremists who are using far-right wing propaganda to refute Obama's suggested health care policies are the ones who are using 'socialist' as a not-so thinly veiled way of saying that the policy is going to give undeserving Americans health care. That is what the post is about. I, just like my American comrades are not going to ignore this. As I mentioned before, I understand the hesitancy that some might feel if they think that their hard-earned tax dollars are going to be used in a way that they feel is unfair. BUT Heath care is a human right. Everybody deserves it. And pardon me if this comes off as ignorant, but isn't it better that everyone who is working is covered? Doesn't it better everyone if all people can be as healthy as they can be? doesn't it benefit employers to have the healthiest employees?

What bothers me is that it seems like there is a segment of people who really don't give a shit if some people (yes Mata, this is definitely a class issue) end up dying in the streets...hold on, that happens to people every day. Why not try and make it better? Health care - both in Canada and the US has always been a contentous issue, but I have never seen it so bad as now. this debate has shown us that we in North America are not 'Post-Racial' and that ( while I suspected this all along) having a black president has not swayed the minds of those who refuse to have their minds swayed.

No one is calling you a racist here, Kaori, unless you fit the bill. And if you do, maybe you should check your ideologies.

Contributing Editor - Race, Ethnicity & Culture 

Blog: Writing is Fighting: www.lainad.typepad.com ( http://www.lainad.typepad.com/ )

Writer: Consequence of Sound:

Nordette Adams 6 pts

I suppose I understand your frustration and how the hairs on the back of your neck bristle when the words "racism" and "racists" are used. However, please consider the following.

There's a saying that "the guilty dog hollers loudest." When racism is discussed and its behavior described and no names of ordinary citizens are mentioned, meaning nobody used your name specifically, when concepts of racist shouting like use of the word *nigger* by people in a crowd is evaluated, when racist behavior is discussed such as applauding tearing up a Rosa Parks sign, when acceptance of the spin of public figures like Beck who tells lies saying health care is about reparations for black people is examined, and stupidity from Limbaugh is mentioned, and then someone drops by not to say he or she disagrees with the people in the crowd using the word *nigger* or to declare that she doesn't believe the racist propaganda of a Beck or a Limbaugh, when she drops by only to say "Please stop calling me a racist" and uses coded phrases like "my beloved country's identity" as though the people who support health care reform don't love this country or are not part of its identity, then, well ... I for one wonder what made the person comment just to make that statement.

This post is not saying anyone's a racist simply for throwing around the word "socialist" or because they work hard and want better for their families.  This post is more about the racist propaganda and coded language being used to stir people up while misinforming them about health care reform. Furthermore, I think the writer knows socialism is an economic system. She'd probably disagree, however, that her country, Canada, is a socialist country because it has a public health system. Public health care does not make a nation a socialist nation. I'm sure business owners in Canada will tell you that they're still capitalist, and a good economist will tell you that America's current system is not purely capitalist but mixed.

If you're really aganst public health care, if that's all that's making you protest health care reform, then please write your congress member and tell him or her that you want to be excluded from Medicare in the future.

People can call you whatever they like. It's what you answer to that tells us who you are.

Nordette Adams ( http://www.bookotopia.com ) is a BlogHer CE ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... ) & you can find her other stuff through Her 411 ( http://her411.com ). Her opinions are her own and not that of BlogHer, which is nonpartisan.

brava11 5 pts

Since Obama became President manny people ( usually followers of Sarah I have nothing in my brain Palin), have used the word very lightly...before anyone used that word, they must educate them selves, and understant what a means....fear is been implanted in our brains to stop us from getting the benefits we all deserve..It is very sad how when Bush was in office and talked about a war that had nothing to do with September 11; No town hall meetings where disrupted, and only us so called liberals where protesting in the street and 1000 and 1000 of people and our brave soldiers died.. however critisizing our president because he wants to add a public option for more the 44,0000000 million americans is socialism...Lets wake up and read the fine print....thanks; and yes most of the time deep down inside is a litle be of racism...  lets Check Ourselves..

"BRAVA... Life is the Result of our Choices..."

Kaori 5 pts

For me, socialism doesn't equate to black people.  It equates to an economic system that will take away my choices, my ability to improve my life through hard work, and my beloved country's identity.  Please believe me when I say that this is enough to make me hopping mad. 

Oh, yeah, and being casually accused of racism every time I try to express my opinion.  That kind of ticks me off too.

Mata H 5 pts

Absolutely much of the resistance is racist. Intertwined with that is a class issue.

Ms Worthmorethanyou doesn't want to think she is paying for Miss Trailerpark's health care.

PLUS there is an issue of recent immigrants. In my town there are a lot of Russian immigrants. I have heard the same vitriol about "them" getting health-care as others have described on racial lines.

Basically you have the "over here" group of those in power who think that power=value+entitlement, and the "over there" group of the un- and dis- enfranchised.

Anyway, it stinks. People need health care more than insurance companies need record profits, and more than Mr Kissmyrichbutt needs another country club membership.

I think it is all about a wrongly held sense of entitlement that excludes on a number of grounds, race being surely among them.

~~ Contributing Editor, Mata H. also blogs right along at Time's Fool ( http://timesfool.blogspot.com )