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Nordette is a freelance journalist, published fiction writer, poet, and the mother of two children. She is also a BlogHer.com Contributing Editor an...
 
 
 
 

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The Season of Our Discontent or Life with the "N" Word

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Any discusion of the "n" word in mixed company, mingling ethnic groups, gets uncomfortable, maybe even dirty. It'll shake some folks up, maybe burn a few, but if we're lucky, like supernaturally blessed lucky, we might learn something to heal our disease. So, I've set aside the post I'd intended to write about Starbucks closing. Instead I'm picking up a topic that I've told other bloggers privately I won't discuss again until possibly next year, use of the "n" word.

I said wait until next year because you know some drama about the "n" word will blow up again. It's become a fixture in our lives. Toni Morrison's assertion in Playing in the Dark that the African-American presence, either by appearing fully and positively or only as troublesome allusion, permeates American Literature may also be applied to the fabric of this nation. The blood-stained thread weaves through each patch, a pleasing splash of color or embarrasing stain.

First, Laina, thank you for taking on this complex subject. Laina is a BlogHer contributing editor who wrote about America's most recent dust-up over the "n" word, the Whoopi Goldberg/Elisabeth Hasselbeck drama. She's done an exceptional job. I like her pithtiness and how she also drew into the post the Jesse Jackson/Obama mess, a topic that reminds us just how much race has been in our faces this election year. Laina also had the following observation that made me laugh.

Plus, why are white folks so eager to say the N-word in public? It's like y'all chomping at the bit. Good luck with that. (Laina's post)

My problem with the "why can't we white people also use the "n" word because black people say it all the time" justification and then someone like Elisabeth Hasselbeck crying on The View over what, oh what will she teach her children if black people keep calling each other "n****r" is that the argument is bullsh*t. It's like most justifications that come from people who don't want to address a difficult issue honestly; it oversimplifies the subject, "white washes" it so to speak, just to let folks who are too lazy to walk in someone else's shoes off the hook for taking high road.

Really, how dare Hasselbeck make it sound as though black people are at fault for more white people using the "n" word? I'll concede that young white people listening to rap music have been stricken stupid by hearing this word so often, but what does that have to do with what Hasselbeck teaches her children about treating people with respect?

I know I'm treading a slippery slope here and certainly risk being called "an angry black woman," but that's okay. I'll be in good company with Laina and Michelle Obama. We have a tendency in this country to chide people for expressing anger about subjects that any fool knows should make a person angry. When feminists, for instance, passionately speak about the inequality of women, what's the common adjective tossed their way? Hmm, she sure sounds bitter. You may also hear some further discussion about it being her time of the month, or raging hormones from menopause. When black women speak of racial injustice, then it's "they're angry" and also, "You know how emotional those people are. They just don't know how to be rational."

I'm not angry. I'm frustrated.

I'm not so much frustrated by the racist policies and practices that affect African-Americans everyday. I was born into that. It's something you don't get over, but you do learn to adjust. You develop coping mechanisms such as practicing love instead of endulging meltdowns, and you live your life hoping the world will become what it should be. If you're not totally beaten down by the time you bear children, then you embrace the wonders of your heritage, ignore the hateful, and teach your children to behave as people would in a better world.

I am not angry but I am frustrated by people behaving as though they don't understand how some black people may use the word "n****r" sometimes and yet be incensed by people of other races using it. Frankly, this pretense of incomprehension is another form of racist propaganda, this view that black people are so foreign to white people and hard to understand when it comes to the "n" word. Any

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Nordette Adams 6 pts

First, do you know about David Edlestein ( http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/the_big_picture/20... )? He's a professional movie critic who also did not like The Dark Night and who found his inbox flooded with hate mail ( http://nymag.com/daily/movies/2008/07/why_youre_st... ) for speaking his mind.  He didn't let that stop him from saying what he thought.  He wrote a public response called The Dark Night of My Soul and near the end had this message:

*Note to readers: You blunt the force of your attack when you write to
an author to say, “No one cares what you think” — because, uh, at least
one person does.

So, he didn't back down from his review.  However, I don't think he got anything as horrifying as the message sent to you, and I doubt he's had an experience that would make the threat of rape doubly threatening, the experience of a gang rape.   (I have a friend and the daughter of a friend who've experienced this most horrific type of attack.)

You look at the world in way very similar to the way I look at it. When something tragic or possibly crippling happens I wonder what should I learn from this?  It's good that you're so introspective, but what's up with these people sending hate mail? I wonder do they have consciences.  It seems that the people who most need to see themselves and the pain they cause refuse to look in their souls' mirrors.

You're so right. There are some things that simply should not be said to anyone under any circumstances. Threatening to rape a woman is one of those.

You are a strong woman, Alyssa, and that's what counts most. Some people joke that what doesn't kill us makes it easier for the next thing to do so. But you're a testament to the intent of the original saying, that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette )

Megan Smith 5 pts

Hi Alyssa,

I tell ya', I despair of the human race sometimes when I hear stuff like this.  I don't think I'd have nearly the courage you do to leave those vile comments up.

Just know you have support from this fellow blogger.

Megan Smith ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... )
BlogHer Contributing Editor, TV/YouTube ( http://www.blogher.com/blog/msmith )
Megan's Minute: Quirky Commentary Around The Clock ( http://www.megansminute.com/ )

Laracolvin 5 pts

Alyssa, I CANNOT believe anyone (much less 200 anyones) would send you hate mail like that. But in the past few weeks, I've seen more blog "hate" than I've ever noticed before. That is another post in itself.

But, you continue to impress me. I think I would have had to cower for a bit longer than a day to unshake the terror those words must have caused. And then for you to turn them around and apply them to this discussion is brilliant! And gutsy. I'm sorry I can't leave a comment on your blog and that you had to close comments altogether. But know this: this blogger supports you - and thanks you for coming back to this conversation again and again with something new to add. I'm sure we can all agree this safe space is pretty special.

Lara 

Notions of Identity ( http://www.notionsofidentity.com )

alyssaroyse 5 pts

Bare with me here.....  I just got out of the tub.  Hot water and herbal tea intended to calm my nerves. I was shaken. I had received an email that said, "I'm glad I know you live in Seattle so that I can find you and rape you." Now, to be fair, this was one of about 200 comments on my blog ( http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/startherup/arch... ) and about 100 or so emails into my gmail account, all of which called me names and who's insults ran the gamut from insulting my intelligence, suggesting i get back in the kitchen and make babies, should get AIDS and die slowly, and my personal favorite, should be shot and raped.

What did I do?  I didn't like the most recent Batman movie.

The reason that this all made me think of this N Word post while I was in the tub is that I am a rape survivor. I speak about it often, it's part of who I am. So when some idiot posts anonymous comments on my blog stating that I should be raped, I have a very particular response. "How can you say that so casually?"  "How can you take this attribute of my past and use it against me?"

I know that he is not going to track me down and rape me. Seriously. But taking something SO HURTFUL and so casually throwing it around is unfathomable to me.

I wondered if that is anything at all like having the N Word hurled at someone who knows that somewhere in their psyche that word was used to hurt people. And now it's being thrown around so casually.

And the impact? I'm a seriously strong chick.  I have remained standing through tougher storms than this one, and there has not been a shitpile of lemons thrown at me that I couldn't turn into lemonade, pie, upside down cake and a nice Vitamin C complexion mask. But this torrent of menacing comments has knocked me down flat for the day.

Is this really what we want people to feel like? Is this really the energy we want thrown around?

I'd ask you to comment on my blog to support me, but I closed the comments. I have had all I can take. But I did leave the vitriol up there for the world to see. And we can talk about here on BlogHer ( http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/startherup/arch... )where it's safe to do so.

I'm going for a walk in the sun. This stuff just can't stay in the anonymous darkness. 

____________

Alyssa Royse

Just Cause It: ( http://www.justcauseit.com )A Web Site To Save The World

Start Her Up: ( http://www.startherup.com )A Blog for Women Entrepreneurs (where the original post ( http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/startherup/arch... )is.)

ReneeJRoss 5 pts

Thank you for elucidating on this topic. I was impressed by the comparison to the word redneck. The author of a blog I read the other day wrote about being a Georgia Peach and showed a video of her people. Her people were attending the annual Redneck Fest. What blew my mind about the video is that it was a clip from our local news. The confederate flag was waving in the air for all to see. The people attending the festival had embraced the word redneck and exemplified the stereotypes associated with the word.

My comment to her post was about thinking that with all of the confederate flags flying that probably was not a place that I ever needed to be. Just as there are negative connotations associated with the "N" word and redneck that confederate flag really got to me. What I really wanted to say was that I wouldn't be caught after dark in the part of the state at anytime, and absolutely not during this celebration. That crew claimed redneck similarly to some black folk claim the *N* word, not in mixed company but in mixed media.

This is a clear example of turning what was once lemons into lemonade which is what most people try to do. I am not here to argue that some people should be able to use the N word and others can't because in my humble opinion no one should use that word. Or B***h for that matter.

As a mother raising a black son it is my and his father's responsibility to educate him and help him to understand why it is inappropriate to use this word. Will he hear it from other members of our family? Maybe. As a child I heard it but understand the negative connotations and never used it.

I want to thank you for opening up his dialogue I think it is high time for all of us to face our personal prejudices/racism/etc.

I apologize if this is rambling (it is early in the morning) but ultimately my point is to say thank you. You have given many people food for thought.

And I want to end by encouraging people to watch POV's "Talking Back: Traces of the Trade" it explores the filmmakers experience exploring her family's history of being former slave owners. She and a group of nine other family members document their travel to Africa and Cuba and their reactions as well as the reactions of others to the trip.

Renée

www.cutiebootycakes.blogspot.com ( http://www.cutiebootycakes.blogspot.com )

Nordette Adams 6 pts

You're so right, we base our opinions on our experiences and our experiences only unless we attempt to stand in someone else's shoes and share experiences or at least take a walk outside our own neightborhoods. I recall a school board member who told another school board member who wanted the board to reject a study of the town's growth (or lack thereof) based on what he'd personally observed to be more children living in the town. The first member told the other one, "You think you know this town, but you don't. All you know is the part of your street you see from your front window."

I think the man was insulted at first, but then he had to acknowledge the statement was true.

I definitely agree with you on parental responsibility. If we as parents fall into blaming our children's behavior on what other people say and do, then we've already lost the battle for our children's futures.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette )

Nordette Adams 6 pts

Alyssa, the last thing I would want to do is frighten away someone who honestly wants to raise children to make this world better for all people and who will take the time to listen because we need more listening on all sides of this issue.

For instance, I am as dismayed over the recent rap song referring to Hillary as a "b*tch" as I am over people using the "n" word and wonder if the artist behind the lyrics has been hiding under a rock.  How can you say you want change for the better but then revert to old nasty habits?  That's what I'd like to ask him.

Sometimes when I respond to comments I respond as though I'm speaking not to the person who asked the question or made the comment but to a larger group and my energy gets the better of me.  So, I forget that the the person I responded to may think I'm talking about him/her specifically.  I'll work on that.

Glad to see you back, and I'm sorry you had a rough day.  It happens to the best of us.  

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette )

alyssaroyse 5 pts

I've resisted even coming to BlogHer for a few days, waiting for the emotional firestorm to pass. Mostly inside of me. So no, Nordette, I'm not leaving the discussion, the issue or you. :)

I am, however, going to resist going through and reading everything again and just share some lingering impressions, because at the end of the day, lingering impressions are what fuel our continued strife, racism and confusion in general.

In your original post you said something about being called "angry." (And that you weren't angry, but rather, you were frustrated.)  I venture to guess we're all frustrated.  But sometimes in those emotionally charged states, our frustration sounds angry, and accusatory. And while I don't think there's anything wrong with that, we do have to acknowledge that it changes the way our arguments are heard. I felt very on the defensive because when i genuinely asked "what's up with people using this word?" you compared me to that Elizabeth chick. (I'm too lazy to go look up her last name.) You made an assumption - or it felt like it - that I was just like her. Someone who you had just called whiney and some other name. I was just another white woman sniveling about something I couldn't possibly understand. Ironic, since what I was saying was that I am a white woman, and I want to try and understand.

Now, I think I know enough about you that you didn't necessarily mean that.... but that's what comes across.

So how do we - all of us who have really legit grievances and confusions and desire for dialog about causes that matter to us - express our passion in a way that doesn't put others on the defensive?  My response to your response (to my response) was admittedly lazy and emotional - to just walk away. But my god, we can't all keep doing that around important issues.  We can't walk away. And we can't push others away.

As I said on the panel I spoke on at BlogHer 08, pretty much anything i've ever written has come from a place of anger and frustration, but i try to take that, simmer it down to something else and put it out to the world in a way that invites positive dialog. Because those places of justifiable anger, fear & confusion are the very places that we - as a society - have the greatest opportunity for growth.

As I said, I've never used the word nigger in my life, until this post. I find it vile. You find it vile. I raise my child to treat the world and the people in it with compassion and openness.  As  do you. But I am genuinely puzzled by the use of the word nigger in popular culture, especially black pop media - that is consumed not only by black people but also white people.  I am totally confused by it and really wish we could have a peaceful dialog about the far reaching impact of its use.  I am a white woman, who is genuinely confused. I'm not asking why it's being used so that i can protect the right for white people to use it. And I'm not whiney either, or weak, or "racist" or anything else. I'm just frustrated, just like you.

And don't want to be part of any dialog that uses language that is belittling and mean to others. Whether it's the "N" word or calling those who are asking questions, "whiney." It just isn't constructive.  It makes me want to walk away, and I think that I am not alone, and that might be part of the problem.

We simply need to find a way to discuss incredibly painful and charged issues in a way that uses no name-calling of any sort. We need to look at the future and say "how do we get there?" I don't know how we get there, but i do know that we can only get there TOGETHER.

So I really apologize for walking away. It was the wrong response. And it wasn't what I wanted.

(I just had a really shitty day that day!) 

____________

Alyssa Royse

Just Cause It: ( http://www.justcauseit.com )A Web Site To Save The World

Start Her Up: ( http://www.startherup.com )A Blog for Women Entrepreneurs

Off The Rocks: ( http://www.offtherocks.net ) A Marriage Facing Alcoholism 

n2ative1 5 pts

There is so much to address here that I hardly know where to begin.  Oh wait!  I know!  Let me begin with my pet peeves.  I’m overdue for a good rant so I’m going to and I’ll be edgy and hard core, so prepare yourself to be offended, if you are of a mind to.

First, I want to address the tears and whining.  In my opinion, people who cry when the topic gets intense have been sheltered.  They are clueless to the issues of the world.  They believe that sweetness and light can cure the moral-less masses and the world will be a better place.  Their parents protected and sheltered their genteel sensitivities from anger, distress, pain and any other thing that would make them cry.  They have never had to deal.  Now, understanding that they may have never endured hardship, how can I take the “why can’t we all just get along” bravado seriously?  Along those same lines, if you get defensive without having been accused of how you may or may not have behaved or profess to never have said or done any of the derogatory things you’ve chosen to comment on, what are you hiding or hiding behind?

Here is an example of what I mean.  A few years back a white female friend of mine projected the aura of embracing all races and believed in her heart that she couldn’t possibly be racist.  That was her thought process until her brother who performed in a rock band began dating the lead singer—a black woman.  Of course, there were tears when some of us—her black friends—heard her say, “Oh my God!  He can’t date her!”  We asked why and the floodgates opened.  Were we persecuting her?  No, but she sure felt we were.  Did we ask her angrily?  No, just wanted to hear her perspective on why it wasn’t OK for her brother to date outside his race.  I believe the tears were the result of not being able to articulate why she didn’t want her brother dating a black woman.  Perhaps it would have sounded racist if she said it out loud.  Also, it was likely quite painful to look inside herself and see the ugly opinion she had formed and the realization of why she felt that way was probably even more painful. 
I may have pissed everyone off with my edgy opinion, but please understand that my perspective is different because of my experiences just like all the other opinions within this blog topic and subsequent commentary.  I grew up in the South and I’ve heard the word “negro” slurred into what many Southern whites believed was an acceptable alternative.  The word is “NIG-ra.”  Please spare me.  I didn’t fall for it then and I don’t want any form of the derogatory “n” word used in my direction now.  At the same time, I grew up hearing the “n” word within my “family” all the time.  The word was only used infrequently in its derogatory form.  Usually it was aimed at someone who was “acting a fool.”  Most often it was good-natured ribbing or used in jest.  Sometimes, it was a greeting.  Either way, it was not intended for white consumption.  For a group of people within an ethnicity to adopt language intended only for them isn’t a new concept.  HELLO!  So, the need to debate over whether it is a bad thing for black people to use the “n” word escapes me. 

Now, on to my second pet peeve.  When did parents start letting their kids do something because everyone else was doing it?  How many times did I use that excuse to get my way and my dearly departed father said to me, “If everybody else was jumping off a bridge, would you want to do that, too?”  At the time, I vowed I’d never use that phrase on my own children and I kept that vow, but only because I developed my own version of it.  My sons got to hear, “Good, everybody else is doing it so that means you get to be different because you won’t be.”  I tried to see down the road and my goal was to teach them about life and how to survive in the cold, cruel world.  Delaying gratification is the toughest lesson many humans have to learn.  You can’t always get what you want (thank you Mick Jagger).  They had to earn and pay for half of the Nintendo and we matched their effort.  They had to buy their own cars.  Not because we couldn’t buy them but because it was my job to teach them the value of a dollar.  They did not have phones and televisions and all the latest gadgets in their bedroom until they had earned the right.  Why?  Because I wanted my kids to learn to be alone with their own thoughts instead of some of the mindless young people I see who can’t survive without external stimulation.  I see cell phones, I-Pods and all manner of wires hanging from their heads because parents were too busy making money and chasing their dreams to raise their kids. 

I believe this is much of the reason why young white people have resorted to inventive games involving racist connotations like “black face” and the like.  They are bored. 

Now, don’t criticize my use of the word ni@@er unless you a) hear me say it in mixed company and b) have walked a mile in my ethnically-polished shoes.  Do some homework.  Get around some black people (if you ain’t scared to get none on ya) and apply a little effort to understand why it’s OK for us to say it, but certainly not OK for you.

Visit my work at:  www.authorsden.com/ivalawson ( http://www.authorsden.com/ivalawson )

Megan Smith 5 pts

Hi Nordette,

I don't have children, and at this rate, I might never have any, but I couldn't help being incredibly moved by this lovely, thoughtful and extremely useful response that you wrote for Amelia.

If I did have children, I know I would be bringing them up the same way you've described here and short of the usual things in life that can happen that derail our best laid plans, I know these firm, yet loving rules would result in some amazing adults.  People I would be honored to call my children.

Megan Smith ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... )
BlogHer Contributing Editor, TV/YouTube ( http://www.blogher.com/blog/msmith )
Megan's Minute: Quirky Commentary Around The Clock ( http://www.megansminute.com/ )

Nordette Adams 6 pts

It's always good to hear that someone picked up the details of what we've said and understood it.

BTW, I dropped by MotherGooseMouse.  I really enjoyed your don't drink, don't smoke ( http://mothergoosemouse.com/2008/07/29/you-dont-dr... ) post, and I also like the graphic you use for your banner. 

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette )

Nordette Adams 6 pts

Thank you, Jill.  I'll keep my eye on the look-out for further documenation because the story is a testament to creative human coping mechanisms and also reminds of us of the shame of antimsemetism.  We need these stories so we don't repeat our ugliness and also so we may learn how to face our trials.  

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette )

Nordette Adams 6 pts

Thank you, Amelia. I can understand what you mean. Actually, as a black mother I've gone through some of the same issues. Nevetheless, neither of my children use the "n" word. They know not to use any type of profanity in my presence, and my son, a teen, will sometimes test to see if I'm more lenient because he's older and may tell me what he told someone else that involved language I've asked him to not use. I stand my ground when I hear these stories, not with any railing about it, just a gentle "You know better." He knows I disapprove of foul langauge and name calling of any type and that won't change.

I'm no angel. I've got a few four-letter words up my sleeve, but I don't use them around my children and really work hard to rid myself of that bad habit. The "n" word, however, is one I don't use ever.

My son doesn't dress in pants falling down beneath his behind. My daughter did not follow the crowd either. I will tell you that at his school in NJ, other guys thought he was cool. Maybe not the ones who worship rappers, but most respected him for not behaving like everyone else.

Part of my children being as they are can be attributed to their own temperaments ( http://www.blogher.com/node/16310 ) with which they were born because I'm no supermom. Furthermore, I was a rebellious child, and if my children were wildly rebellious, I'd consider it my karma. (We must expect a at least some rebellion as it's part of their growing up.)

On the other hand, I recall that my parents were not always consistent in certain messages, and so smarty pants here took that as a reason, an excuse, to not do as they wanted me to do in certain areas of my life. I lived the Samuel Clemens/Mark Twain's saying:

When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years.

There are still ways in which they would have preferred me to live that really don't work for me and my generation, but I learned that most of what they taught me grew from wisdom and a desire to have me "do the right thing." Most of it was good advice.

All you can do is raise your child to be the best person she can be, to tell her the same things mothers and fathers have been saying to children who want to imitate the crowd for years, "So would you jump off a cliff if everyone else is doing it?" :-) (an old parental standard) And then have some faith.

When our children are young, they tend to do what we say. When they get older they frequently challenge what we say, but one thing we teach them that should help them no matter what happens in this world is to live a noble life, to behave in ways that will make them proud when they look back at their lives. I've tried to make my children understand the consequences of both poor action and inaction, plus the rewards of making better choices. I've encouraged them to practice introspection about their own actions because I don't want them to blame others when they make poor choices. I hope they've been listening.

What you don't have to worry about

One thing I can assure you, that no matter how much your daughter may hear the "n" word, she will not have black kids pressuring her to say it. Instead, they may notice that she doesn't use it, and if she does use it and seems accepted for a time, I also assure you that one day she will cross paths with a black person who will not tolerate it and that person will object rather harshly or they may cross her off a list of people they respect, dismiss her, and she won't know why. If she tends to use offensive language of any type, one day it will cost her something. Let's hope it's not a job or worse. I know you will teach her about consequences for actions and so she'll avoid such drama.

When I observe my son showing behaviors that I know will jeopardize him in the real world, I say, "Let me tell you something. I'm letting you off the hook this time, but the next time I'm going to respond to you the way someone would do who's not your mother. You'll lose friends and jobs with that kind of behavior or that tone of voice." When he crosses the line and ends up losing privileges, he knows why because he's been warned.

For a little girl, you may have to change the words but not the gist of the message.

I confess that I'm a little perplexed by parents who think their chilcren can't resist the "n" word. Unlike drugs, there's not direct peer pressure to say the "n". Nobody's going to corner your child and dare her to use the word for the sake of fititng in with the crowd. Children fall into using the word the same way they fall into using other cuss words. They think it will make them cool and hip. But you'll do her greater justice if you stand your ground and simply don't allow it. As she gets older, you may have to share a history lesson with her and some psych 101 too. For now, it's just not a nice word.

So, to me, teaching a child not to use the "n" word is no different from teaching them other lessons about social accountablity. We don't say it's okay to get poor grades because other children have poor grades. Good parents never agree it's okay to take drugs because other kids do so. And while we suspect our children may have sex sooner than we like, parents rarely give the green light on that if they think a child should wait simply because other kids do it.

It's still a offensive word, so how would you handle it if a child took to using the "f" word in our presence? We wouldn't tolerate that, right? She'll know you've set boundaries and a higher bar for her, and while she may not show it in her youth, one day she'll look back and know that her mom was wise and raised her to do the right thing.

I guarantee you that there are black kids whose parents don't use the "n" word, and while the child may use it sometimes in the presence of friends, they wouldn't dare do so in front of their parents. As a result, I'm fairly sure their children feel a pang or pinch of conscience about using the word when their parents aren't around, and eventually they'll mature and give it up.

There are also children who have learned by example and consistency from their parents to never say it, and so they don't.

Thanks for your thoughts. Being a parent is difficult, but I hope what I said helps.

Now for a laugh, when my daughter was talking more (she started speaking early), we taught her to say "thank you." She's hard of hearing due to an illness when she was two, and so had trouble reproducing certain sounds. When someone would compliment her or give her a gift, at church and elsewhere, she'd look at the person and say in the sweetest voice, "F*ck you."

Now, that's something to raise your hair. She grew out of that, thank goodness.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

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ameliasprout 5 pts

I grew up in a white small town, and I knew black people, but not many.  My parents tried to make sure I was raised right to be accepting and not racist.

But my lack of personal experience has left me unsure of how raise my daughter.  We made a choice to live in the city, to make sure that growing up she was exposed to all kinds of people.  But how, when I can't even go into an American Apparel store without having music played that has the N word in it, when now that she rides the bus with me there are people saying it all the time, how am I supposed to keep her from saying it? She is just starting to talk, she is starting to copy what others say, and here she is surrounded by it. 

If she says it, I would fear for our safety, or at the least worry that people would think the wrong thing of me.  I hate EH (and refuse to watch the View no matter how much I love Whoopi), but I understand to a certain extent frustration about how to do the right thing.  Especially when my exposure to it is a much larger reality than EH's is.  I'm not asking for permission to use it, or excuse the behavior of any white person who uses it either.  Maybe I'm looking for ideas from other parents, or maybe I don't know what I'm looking for.

I appreciate the community here, and discussing this here because while I'd be happy to talk about sex, and boobs, and a number of other taboo subjects, in person I don't have anyone to discuss it with, and nothing makes me more nervous or anxious than race issues.  I can't undo what my ancestors did, but I want to do everything I can do to make it better. 

Laracolvin 5 pts

I'm going to second Nordette and ask you not to disengage. We need you and your voice and your perspective. I hope when you have had some time to think it over, you'll keep commenting.

I also think this is an awfully difficult conversation to have online. It is hard enough when there is a physical space built on safety and connection. Not that we can't learn from each other in a forum like this, but we aren't forced to listen in the same way or keep at it while looking at each other in the eye. We have the option to walk away from the computer. I mean look at it this way, you and Nordette are both among the most respectful bloggers around here, and look how hard it is to flesh this out online. We (in this post and some of the others) are on the brink of really getting somewhere, really reaching each other through the pain and confusion or really hurting each other's feelings and having folks backing down - possibly for a long time. 

I don't have the answer necessarily (unless BlogHer wants to host a physical space for us to do this work together), but I hope we can keep at it and push on. This is messy, nuanced, emotional "stuff". But if we commit to it, recognize its flammability, and keep on despite all of our inner urgings to walk away to a more comfortable place, we WILL make the world a better place for our kids and theirs.

So, Alyssa: please don't go.  

Notions of Identity ( http://www.notionsofidentity.com )

Nordette Adams 6 pts

You said Grandmaster Flash and I knew who you were talking about. Haha! We're dating ourselves. :-)

Thanks for your thoughtful comments. 

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

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Nordette Adams 6 pts

Alyssa, I was not yelling at you. I wasn't even frustrated with you. I assure you, if I were angry or yelling, I would not be writing you now.

I was articulating issues that I have with some of the arguments that seemed to be echoed by what you said.

I recognize the confusion around this word especially when black people use it too, and I really wish we'd drop the word from our minds, but when people want to discuss using the "n" word from a perspective that suggest we're all on equal footing, I hear a grasping at the excuse that says white people will use it as long as black people use it. That may be true, but what does it have to do with our personal decisions?

Yes, I know you don't use it. You said so. I also realize that you did not say it was okay to use it, but were articulating why it may seem okay if we keep throwing it out there, a pretty spiritual argument, but I don't think the people who like using this word are taking a spiritual path.

I asked lots of questions that I guess caused you to think I meant you were using the word and that I was yelling at you. Lazy writing on my part to have not gone for the third person, I guess, which is a far less threatening way of addressing people than first or second person, which is why you took what I said personally, I suppose.

Again, I apologize. I had two versions of my response, and in one I wrote that when I say
"you" Alyssa, I don't mean you personally. I mean the universal
"you." Too bad that I lost it in the edit.

I started the original post by saying some folks get burned in these discussions. Sorry if I singed you a bit, that was not my intent. Recall that I also said the following and I meant it.

I like that you're so analytical and that you care enough to mull
this over. If more people mulled it over we'd stop having "n" word
dramas in the media every few months ...

Your decision to not use it and to not let your child use it is commendable. I wish more parents stood that kind of ground.

You started your first comment by saying we were in disagreement and went on to talk about how no one should use the word. Therefore I concluded that you misread me and thought I said it's okay for black people to use the word but not white people. Otherwise what were we in disagrement about in relation to the first post? The only position I took in the original post was that white people should ask themselves why they want to use the word and that how black people use it is complicated.

I certainly hope a little fervency is not enough to scare you off a discussion that addresses a problem that's been here for hundreds of years. I took you at your word that you wanted to understand and were concerned about this world and so I gave a long exposition of my feelings. Sorry to rattle you.

And one more time.  I really appreciated your analogy of "the carbon footprint of an insult." 

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

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Nordette Adams 6 pts

That's pretty sick, Laina.

There was an article about this in the NYT or New York Post and I
remember one of the organizers saying that he didn't think it was
offensive because "I have black friends."

But oh, look! It's the old some of my best friends are black excuse.  White kids calling themselves "whitey" in a game.  Hmm.

Spoken word artist and activist Talaam Acey uses the "n" word a lot in his piece "Market for N*gg*z" but he uses it to show what a sell out someone like a Spank Rock would be and also to speak out against misogynystic lyrics and other ugly uses of language. Probably, Acey's piece is an example of using the word to make an artistic point, which is why, as a writer, I don't think we'll be able to ban the word but maybe through education we can smother it.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

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Nordette Adams 6 pts

Why? If it's a term of endearment then why didn't you put it on your
grandfather's headstone? Why not include it in the floral arrangement
when your pastor died? Why aren't you calling your grandmother by that name rather than saying "Ma'Dear"?

That's a great way to explain that and I'm going to remember it the next time someone's justifying why they're still using the word. Actually, as has been discussed here already, I understand the reclaimation argument, but I'm so past it. I don't want the "n" word to be my anthem.

Thanks, Lisa.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

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Nordette Adams 6 pts

It frustrates me that some of the same people who refuse to understand how a black child raised in poverty with drugs and guns at every turn might decide to pick up a gun or join a gang will make excuses for white young people committing racist acts or tossing around the "n" word. They excuse them by saying they've been influenced by black culture, like black culture and not their own culture, not their own families or the neighborhoods they live in daily, but a culture they see on television or hear in music is stronger.

To me this situation was not about n-word or not n-word. It was about the idea--often invoked--that White folks should not be
expected to treat another group of humans with full humanity unless
that group first cleans up their own act.

Yes, that's a huge part of it, and it's something I touched on at the end of another comment response. ( http://www.blogher.com/season-our-discontent-or-li... )

Thank you for this illumination.

BTW, I talked about black cool recently with Obama being on the cover of Ebony ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com/2008/07/barack-obama-a... ) and someone made the good point that the list is entertainer heavy, which is true. People forget that some of the icons of cool, black and white, have also been rebels.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

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alyssaroyse 5 pts

I was not trying to pick a fight, nor am i interested in engaging in one. i never said that you suggested it's okay for anyone to use the N word. Nor that black people should be ashamed of it or anything else.

what is said was that no one should use it. not black people, white people, purple people or anything else. but yes, since some of our most celebrated people of color are using it, it does create confusion in terms of who can say it and when, as if it is okay ever. 

my intent was not to upset you, nor to get yelled at, and if you thought i was yelling at you then i sincerely apologize, that could not have been further from my intent.

i did not see the whoopi / elizabeth dialog (can't stand that show!) so i cannot comment on it. but do i think that elizabeth has a right to be confused about how to mitigage the message? yes.  do i think, as a reasonable person, that most reasonable people would see that word as degrading and not use it? yes.  am i utterly confused by it's use in popular black culture? yes. totally.

i dont know who uses this word more now. i really don't. i live in some weird world where i rarely, if ever, hear it. and i like it that way. but at some point i think anyone using it, for any reason, is guilty of perpetuating it's vile energy.

i just do. i'm sorry.

in any event, it appears that i'm just part of the big white evil machine for suggesting that. which really sucks because it could not be further from the truth. black people and white people need to stop using it if we want it to go away. society is full of "ills" and until we take control of it and stop it, it isn't going to change.

and if you are suggesting that i said anything to insinuate that it's okay for white people to use the word, as this passage in your reply suggests: "So here we are again. Why do white people want to use this word so much that they're making excuses for it? Why don't they stop saying "nigger"?" - read again please.  i didn't.  if i'm asking anything, it's why is ANYONE using it, regardless of color.

yes, i am my daughter's example, and i'm setting a damned good one i think. but she see's tv, movies, pop culture all around her..... do we need to make everything a battle? me against media? us against them? black against white? o

i didn't create the word. i don't use it. i don't think anyone should.

and i certainly don't think that yelling at people who are genuinely trying to figure something out is an answer to creating understanding.  clearly, as a white person, i have no business engaging in this dialog. that is now abundantly clear. because if i ask questions i will get accused - as elizabeth was - of perpetuating some regime, or being ignorant, or not taking responsibility for something that i don't' have anything to do with in the first place. got it. loud and clear. 

____________

Alyssa Royse

Just Cause It: ( http://www.justcauseit.com )A Web Site To Save The World

Start Her Up: ( http://www.startherup.com )A Blog for Women Entrepreneurs

BlackWomenBlowTheTrumpet 5 pts

Hi there Nordette, I have been in too many pointless discussions about the use of the N word.

I have heard many blacks tell me that "we've taken the power that whites had with that word by using it amongst ourselves as a term of endearment."

Oh really now? That's bogus.

Why? If it's a term of endearment then why didn't you put it on your grandfather's headstone? Why not include it in the floral arrangement when your pastor died? Why aren't you calling your grandmother by that name rather than saying "Ma'Dear"?

Because you know darn well that it's not a term of endearment...if it were then you would be using it with those you hold dear.

We can check THAT bogus excuse off the the list.

I have also had white friends asking me, "if blacks can use it with each other WHY can't we use it too?" and my answer is this, "knowing the history of your race using the word, tell me three reasons why you would even WANT to?" Then ...the silence. The shame.  Yes, please, tell me WHY you want to use that term and how would it make you feel to use it with blacks?

*crickets chirping*

Okay...end of discussion then.

Jill Miller Zimon 5 pts

Nordette, you wrote:

As I said in my post, these kinds of declarations and reclaiming, using
the weapon that was once used against you as a symbol of power, which is why some Christians, for instance, wear crosses, are born from pain and a belief
that you've overcome the pain or threat. I don't spend time trying to
get people to justify to me how they choose to address their own pain.

 I can't seem to find exactly what I'm looking for to document this, so maybe it's only legend, in which case, I'll say, legend has it that the streimel hat ( http://www.pinenet.com/~rooster/hasid2.html#HASID2... ) (which you can see here ( http://www.wernercohn.com/Resources/shtreimel%20co... ) and which is worn by a branch of Jews called Chassids, as in, Chassidic - which some may recognize from Madonna and the Lubavitch movement and Kabbalah and all that) came into existence precisely because Jews in Europe and Russia, maybe through the 1700s or 1800s?, were forced to use or to wear the fur of really ratty, icky animals, rather than the beautiful furs. 

And, as many people know, religious Jews wear headcoverings as do some not so religious Jews when they are in the synagogue and so on (I wrote a post about how tormeneted I was when my son was getting bar mitzvahed last year because I am pretty Reform even though I married someone who is Conservative and we are raising our kids in the Conservative movement - but ANYWAY!.  But this is because of our religious tenets, not of reclaiming something.

HOWEVER, I have been told that the streimel was a reclaiming: the Jews who had been told to wear or were only allowed to wear the ratty furs took those furs and made them into gorgeous elaborate hats and made them special - some Jews said that only the high Rebbe in the Lubavitch movement could ever wear one, but there was a lot of difference of opinion.

My point is - this is another story of how people took something that others thought was intended to be an insult and they turned it into a cultural rite of passage almost.

I know - not the same so much as the use of the n word, but another example of how, over time, such reclamation or change can occur re: the meaning of a symbol or word etc.

Jill
Writes Like She Talks ( http://www.writeslikeshetalks.com )

Nordette Adams 6 pts

Alyssa, you make some excellent points, but I'm not sure why you framed what you said in the context of disagreeing with me on people using the "n" word. Nothing in my post says that I agree with Whoopi or anyone else who has reasons for using the "n" word. Neither did I say I use the word or that my children use the word.

Understanding why people do what they do is not the same as condoning it.

Indeed, it's a horrible quagmire when the use of a word comes to define and entire segment of the population. But using it doesn't make it go away. And certainly saying that "we can" and "you can't" does more to divide us than unite us.

Again, to whom are you speaking? I don't advocate its use or adhere to the reclaim it doctrine. Do you have those double standard issues I keep reading about, white people upset because they think black people are getting ahead of them? Are you reasoning that this is some kind of reverse discrimination that black people use a word that white people created to insult black people but object when white people use the insult, as usual, against black people?

You know, if white people don't want to own up to the word, and black people are willing to possess it, then maybe we can say "don't use our word" because we've claimed it and you can't have it back! (Just kidding, but that bit does show how ridiculous it is to argue about who can use the word when we know that no one should use it.)

Do white people lose something if they can't say the word "nigger"? Are you suffering assautls to your civil rights because you're itching to use this word but we black people control the world and don't approve?

Rules only divide when they're not fair and it's clear that the party being prevented from doing a certain thing is harmed by not being allowed to do that thing. Any other arguments about fairness is an endulgence in whiney infantilism. (also, people tend to object more when a rule prevents them from doing
something they actually want to do.) We're not talking about the right to own property, to get a job, to use a water fountain. We're talking about white people actually fighting for the "right" to insult black people the same way they always have and to say they do so because black people have low self-esteem and insult themselves sometimes. Is that a cause you'll stand up for?

So what is the warning, the hidden code, when I say, "I'm just a redneck." Or, I'll say it, "I'm just a nigger." Or even, "I'm a nigger
and I'm proud." We cannot, in fact, change the meaning of this word,
it's etched in generations of breath. We just keep putting it out
there, making it okay and telling others that this is the pot in which
we want to live.

So, it's out there. Does that mean you should use it? If white people just decided to stop using it, it would be out there less. Why do they object, go in a circle, and say y'all stop it first?

As I said in my post, these kinds of declarations and reclaiming, using the weapon that was once used against you as a symbol of power, which is why some Christians, for instance, wear crosses, are born from pain and a belief that you've overcome the pain or threat. I don't spend time trying to get people to justify to me how they choose to address their own pain. (Again, understanding does not say it's okay.)

I do, however, not use their pain and how they work through it as an excuse to treat them as badly as they treat themselves. It's not right to use the word and so I don't use it, but my post was not about what I do. My post addresses excuses white people give as well as this pretense some adopt that only black people use self-deprecating language.

Okay, so you get that black people are not the only group that does that. My illuminating that other people also use words for themselves that were created to demean them was not a defense for using the "n" word. It was another way to show that some white people pretend that black people's behavior is unusual in this regard when it is, in fact, not. And if it's not unusual, then it's probably something white people let go or ignore with other groups yet hold against black people. I'm tired of that type of singling out black folks.

I also believe words have power and we should avoid branding ourselves with negatives, but I don't see how someone can let themsleves off the hook to insult others with the excuse the person doesn't have self-respect and calls him/herself names. What kind of crazy talk is that? Would you mutilate someone because you saw her cut herself first and she seemed to enjoy it? Why anyone self-mutilates is more complicated than your observation that they do so and any decision to help them along smells like a person fulfilling a sadistic fantasy.

Decisions about using the "n" word should feel the same. You don't like getting cut, so even if it appears that black people cut themselves and laugh about it, you won't join the party. Black people are not Romans, this ain't Rome, and you know you're not hanging out in the hood. No need to do as we do. Stop frontin'.

The reasons white people choose to say the "n" word are far less complicated than why some black people use it. Simple reason, simple solution. Stop it. And that's not a rule as much as a strong suggestion, and generally that's all social mores are, strong suggestions or guidelines that we ignore at own peril.

And I'll remain sad anytime someone does. Because I shouldn't have to tell my daughter that even though everyone else is degrading our world, she can't. When will we all be able to learn by example?

I'm glad you have the conscience to be sad, but you've just given Hasselbeck's logic, I think. You're your child's example. What the world does be damned. It's your job to tell her she can't. That's life. You're the person who's supposed to teach your child to live an exceptional life. Please don't blame black rappers or even some little black kids on the play ground that you know don't spend nearly as much time with your little girl as you do if your child turns up using this word one day. If she doesn't use you as her example then that's another issue, and it has nothing to do with black people. (This is something I feel strongly about. The world's a bad place sounds like a parental cop out to me. The worlds's a really bad place for black children in the ghetto, and raising kids in such an environment is difficult for black mothers, but we keep sending their sons to jail for crimes they commit anyway.)

Thanks for your comments, Alyssa. I wouldn't have written the post if I didn't want to hear your thoughts.

I like that you're so analytical and that you care enough to mull this over. If more people mulled it over we'd stop having "n" word dramas in the media every few months, but I do think you misread something and thought I condoned using the "n" word and so you felt a need to tell me why it's just as wrong for black people to use it as it is for white pepole to use it and how words are power and we're creating a bad world for our children.

The Monster

Uh, I'm in agreement that no one should be using this word. Nevertheless, I believe that white people created this monster, established its original meaning and so bear more of the onus to not use it for the same reason Dr. Frankenstein can't blame the little girl for her own drowning, claiming she talked to strangers. Neither can he blame her parents for letting her go to the lake alone and not teaching her to protect herself more. He created the monster, he let it loose, he bears more of the burden..

It's good you wrote your comment, though. Gives people more to chew on, especially the carbon footprint analogy.

So here we are again. Why do white people want to use this word so much that they're making excuses for it? Why don't they stop saying "nigger"?

And no, "Black people do it too is not an acceptable excuse."

Interesting what you said about your own heritage, but I did wonder, do you think black people should be ashamed of the word "n****r"? It was
created to shame us, yes. But let the creators of that word be ashamed, ashamed enough to stop looking for new reasons to say it and also ashamed enough to have the decency to not try to tell us we need more self-esteem the way an abusive man tells a woman, "I wouldn't beat you if you took better care of yourself."

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

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lainad 5 pts

I'm working on a book about ( among other things) cultural appropriateness in regards to music, and from reading your comment Yvette, it just reminded me of something that bothered me but I wasn't planning to add it in to my book ( but I just might now).

I don't know how current this is, but have you heard of the "Kill Whitey" parties that were popular in Williamsburg, Brooklyn a couple of years ago? Basically, it was when 'hipsters' - predominately white young people - would throw a party including playing the most heinous gansta rap, sometimes dressing in blackface, watermelon, etc. all under the name of irony. There was an article about this in the NYT or New York Post and I remember one of the organizers saying that he didn't think it was offensive because "I have black friends."

Circa 2008 and there are at least two bands - Spank Rock and Thunder Heist - both with black members - who do electronica / hip-hop music. I know that every Spank Rock track I have heard, the (black) MC is saying pretty misogynist stuff that ties back into the lyrics found within gangtsa rap, circa 1995. Anyway, they are well received by the hipster community. Black media has basically ignored both groups, even though they are essentially doing Hip-Hop. The hipsters seem to get off on these lyrics that are directly targeted to degrading black women - you need to check out their myspace page.

I think that the black 'artist' in Spank Rock knows exactly what he is doing, knows exactly what the result will be and wants to make money and celebrity in any way possible. If it means degrading his own people to do it, so be it. I also don't realizes the consequences of his actions. He does not realize, or does not care that while he thinks his music is 'entertaining' to that particular crowd, it actually perpetrates stereotypes - they might be laughing at him instead of with him.

In some ways, I think that the issue about black hip-hop folks using the N-word in lyrics is played out. Once the contreversy caught on, it disappeared in Hip-Hop as it was not longer 'risque.' While obviusly, yes, some people are still using it, but I think that Hasselbeck's histronics over her poor virgin children contstantly bombarded with it during their play dates on the Upper West side is a bit overblown.

Contributing Editor - Race, Ethnicity & Culture

Writing is Fighting: www.lainad.typepad.com ( http://www.lainad.typepad.com/ )

Yvette Perry 5 pts

Wonderful, Nordette. I am so happy that you decided to follow-up on Laina's own wonderful post.

I want to add just a few words about this topic, in particular what may be going on with some White American young people.

Of course, there has always been a kind of chic associated with Blackness--at least Blackness at a safe distance. In prior generations, this may have come about as young affluent Whites "slummed" in Harlem and Harlem-like neighborhoods to listen to jazz, dance provocatively, and maybe smoke some wacky-weed. When I was in college, it was WHite suburban kids who knew everything there was to know about reggae music and culture. (Again, interestingly enough music and drugs took center stage...)

Now, we have Whiite ouths who listen to gangster rap. This time music (and probably drugs, too, to some extent) is involved--but also so is the n-word. Or at least, the n-word in a much more visible way. Part of what is going on with the "Why can't I say it too" is a desire to tap into this coolness factor. But I also look at mass media humor, such as "South Park." There does appear to be a certain joy to being racist in a way that can be excused or justified as being "ironic" or something. (The whole "hipster racism" that has previously been discussed.)

To me, this shades beyond "wanting to be down" to the feelings of control and release that comes from putting another group down. Not feeling you are going to achieve at the same level of your upper middle class parents? Startled that the high tech jobs youthought would be immune from globalization are leaving the country? Feeling out of sorts that the staff at your neighborhood McDOnald's all speak a language that you do not? Shaken by 9/11 and the idea that many in the world do not like AMerica? All these feelings make ripe a return to virulent forms of racism. And the easiest, most symbolic racism in this country has always been anti-Black racism.

Thus, we see nooses and "Blackface parties"on some college campuses--something that cannot be blamed on rappers, surely. This is not "kids just being kids." This is how racism is kept alive and well. (And this is also why I so often scoff at the idea that racism will somehow "die out" as older generations die off.) If parents and the educational system do not feel a responsibility to take affirmative steps to combat racism, then these feelings will fester in the vacuum that is created. We will have missed another opportunity to put the brakes on this perpetually moving freight train.

All this to say that: I have absolutely no sympathy for Ms. Hasselbeck or others who have expressed similar views. And I say this even as a Black woman who does not advocate the use of the n-word among anyone. To me this situation was not about n-word or not n-word. It was about the idea--often invoked--that White folks should not be expected to treat another group of humans with full humanity unless that group first cleans up their own act. In addition to being old and tired, such a sentiment is just incredibly inauthentic. I, for one, will not be buying it.

Six Impossible Things Before Breakfast ( http://blog.lib.umn.edu/perry032/impossible/ )

alyssaroyse 5 pts

While I don't disagree with MOST of what you said, at all, this still gets down to a question of "is this really the world that I want to create?"  It's a question both of the larger world in which we all live, but also the very small world in which my movements create the way others treat me on a daily basis.

I cannot imagine ANYONE ever using the N word.  We are all taught that the golden rule is to treat others as we want them to treat ourselves. What we are not taught is that how we treat ourselves is how we teach others to treat us. Any time that someone calls themselves a "denigrating" name they are saying that they are a) worthy of denigration and b) accept being treated in that manner. It may not be the intent, but I believe it is the impact. 

I have heard it said that we "reclaim" words by using them on ourselves, but that makes no sense to me. A violent act is a violent act whether it is a punch or a racial slur. As a rape survivor, I would certainly never try to "reclaim" that violence that was done to me by doing it to myself and others.

Were I to go around doing that, I would simply be adding more violence in to the world. Which gets me to the carbon footprint of an insult. (A concept that someone brought up in the Positive Posting Panel that I spoke on at BlogHer 08.)  Regardless of the justifications we may come up with to continue hurling insults at ourselves an others, it doesn't change the fact that we are still hurling insults into the world around us. Like a frog put in tap water who has the heat slowly turned up around them, I think that we are all boiled  and steeping in an environment in which rather than CHANGING the nature of the thing we protest, we have accepted and become it. I find that very sad and frightening.

I don't think there is ever an excuse to insult another person in that way. But even less to insult ourselves that way. While I LOVE your choice of the word denigrate (LOVE it), I think that the more accurate word is DEGRADE and DEGRADING. But, as we all know, when we degrade any strand in the fabric of our community, we weaken the fabric as a whole. 

I treat others how I want to be treated. I treat myself how I want others to treat me. And, like it or not, I look at how others treat themselves to learn how I can and should - or IF I SHOULD - interact with them. As long as that treatment of self involves being degrading to themselves and people around them, I'm not sure how deep I can let my interactions go, as our value structure seems askew.

Indeed, it's a horrible quagmire when the use of a word comes to define and entire segment of the population. But using it doesn't make it go away. And certainly saying that "we can" and "you can't" does more to divide us than unite us.

I have taught my daughter not to say it, and no, I didn't give her a whole lot of reasons. Just up there with "you cant' kill kittens."

There is a quick nod into self-deprecating humor that perhaps we ought to make. I call myself a space case all the time, and I do it as a warning that it will take me longer to get something done than it should. I use it as a warning. We all do that, I think. "I'm on the rag" is code for "I'm either going to cry or slap you." So what is the warning, the hidden code, when I say, "I'm just a redneck." Or, I'll say it, "I'm just a nigger." Or even, "I'm a nigger and I'm proud."  We cannot, in fact, change the meaning of this word, it's etched in generations of breath.  We just keep putting it out there, making it okay and telling others that this is the pot in which we want to live.

I just don't want to. I won't add to that. And I'll remain sad anytime someone does. Because I shouldn't have to tell my daughter that even though everyone else is degrading our world, she can't. When will we all be able to learn by example?

But then again, I'm an original Redneck. I'm a Hatfield baby, they make cartoons about my family tree. And I'm proud of it, but not in a "reclaim the word" way. I'm proud of where my people have been and have come and reminded that we all contain multitudes and no one's heritage defines them, whether we want it to or not.  But how we behave in the world does. 

____________

Alyssa Royse

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myrnatheminx 5 pts

I've been poor white trash in the trailer park, as well as one of the few white kids living in "the hood."  As a result, I've always been extremely sensitive about class and race, and the idea that someone like Hasselback presumes to have anything to say about this other than just noting that it's a loaded term and she doesn't want her children to ever say it, is laughable.  But then again, she is often laughable--earnest maybe, but laughable.  Morrison's idea of subverting the master narrative always appealed to me so much.   That's what intriques me so much about the white kids using the N word.  What are they doing?  Postmodernism definitely cannot explain it.  Your post was beyond excellent--extremely focused and well written.  You made me think about putting more energy back into crafting my posts.

Your conclusion and Laina's are right on...We all need to more critical about the words that we use and why.  I have my own reasons to feel ambivalent in this area that I won't get into, but I've been thinking about this a lot.  Thanks!

The strangest thing about all of this is that when I got to the part of your post where you wrote "don't do it," I immediately starting hearing Grandmaster Flash singing "White Lines" in my head.   Da da da da da da don't do it!

Yours, Tracy Viselli (a.k.a. Myrna the Minx)

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Julie Marsh 5 pts

Nordette, that was such a fantastic post. I was particularly struck by your italicized paragraph regarding the dehumanizing effect of the "n" word on a black person, no matter how wealthy or successful that person may be. You articulated perfectly why such an insult is so repellent (or should be) to people of all races.

Julie

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Nordette Adams 6 pts

Wanted to add, Leslie, that "you might be ghetto if ..." would be more an equivalent to "you might be a redneck if ..." But I'm sure there are people who are also offended by "ghetto" because to they don't feel poverty and isolation can ever be the punch line even if the intent is supposedly to remove the sting.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

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Nordette Adams 6 pts

What do you mean, Maria, that you have nothing to add?!! LOL.  I was looking forward to what you had to say after reading your post Is Black the New Bitch? ( http://www.blogher.com/black-new-bitch )  :-)  I'm kind of sorry you're out of words, but I know you've written quite a bit on these types of issues already.

Thank you for your wisdom. 

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

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Nordette Adams 6 pts

Actually, Leslie, I almost brought that word up, but then realized with all the ideas popping in my head I'd take up the entire site writing. :-) I thought of that show Queer Eye for the Straight Guy and a few other examples. Yet the word "queer," because of the phonetic liquids is less threatening than some other words. Yet, I'm sure anyone part of the glbt community who's had the word "queer" spat at them to insult them would say liquids or not, that hurts!'

I also thought about how non-gay teens will call each other "gay" as though to be gay is both an insult and joke. I don't know if teens who are actually gay, however, do this at all.

I agree, "N" is dramatically more powerful a word than "redneck," evoking a visceral response from some people of all ethnic groups who'd prefer it not be used. And that was part of my point, there is no racial slur that folks toss at white people that can make them as angry and hurt as much as the "n" word when tossed at black folk.

However, I described some of the other implications of being called redneck that not all people realize may be assoicated with it. I grew up in the south, and while some folks here claim they're glad to be "rednecks," others associate being called redneck with being something far worse than what the comedians poke fun at. If you call somebody a "redneck" who grew up without indoor plumbing and never went past the sixth grade and who feels the pain of that lifestyle still, then you might find you join him/her in having fewer teeth because somebody's gonna pop you in the mouth.

All this may be a generational thing here. I'm 48 and have observed concepts associated with the word "redneck" change. The popularity of Foxworthy's "You might be a redneck if" took me by surprise.

I do believe the phrase "poor white trash" as I mentioned, is horrible and that is a slur that redneck often includes. I can imagine what a child might feel like being raise to think of him or herself that way, as trash.

I chose the word "redneck" not because I feel it's equivalent to the "n" word but because most people recognize "redneck" as a pejorative but have also seen it used in comedy the way the "n" word's been used by black comedians. Chris Rock has a routine, btw, in which he separates the "n****rs" from the black people called "I Hate N*gg*rs." I'm sure you'd squirm in your seat listening to it. Much more harsh than "You Might Be A Redneck If ..."

In effect, Rock is making an observation but also trying to brand the word as a  description reserved for a certain behavior while also getting us to see how weird we are about the word as black people and snobby toward each other.  Nobody wants to think he's talking about them, not really. But oh, they know somebody else who fits it just right.  He has similar commentary in a routine about women dancing to rap music when the men are talking about "hos" and women as objects.  If you question them about why they dance to that music, he said, they respond, "He's not talking about me."

I cringe on Chris Rock's stuff becaue of the high level of profanity period. Nevertheless, he is smart.

Again, I'm not saying redneck and the "n" word are the same, but pointing out similarities. If the words evoked the same level of bitterness and pain none of us would spell out "redneck."  We'd be calling it the "R" word. 

However, while it would not bother you if I tossed the word "redneck" around in jest, I simply wouldn't do it because someone may be offended and I know the word's history or how it's really been hurtful to some people on the receiving end.

The fact that there is no racial slur for white people with as much hatred associated with it as the word "n****r" is a statement in and of itself.

Thank you, Leslie, I'm glad you got something out of the post. BTW, on those hoity-toity academics, I linked to your post on this idea that liberal professors are brainwashing our youth.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

Leslie Madsen Brooks 5 pts

Thank you so much for this excellent post. I think a lot of well-meaning white Americans' struggle with trying to find the "right" words--I'm thinking here of your example of someone who was afraid to use the word "black"--is that the language of race is slippery. Appropriate terms come and go--Negro, Afro-American, African-American--or linger a bit and then fade.

But there's one term that hangs around, despite its never having been appropriate for white people to use: N.

I appreciate your comparison of N to "redneck," but I'm having a hard time seeing the similarity in terms of intent. N is a far, far stronger word, one with a much more sinister history. "Redneck" refers, yes, pretty much solely to white people, but it also implies a class standing that--as tough as it might be--a "redneck" could aspire to overcome through education or increased income.

The same is not true of N. One cannot hope (and should not have to hope) to change one's race or ethnicity.

I would have no problem with you using the term "redneck" among an all-black or mixed-race group of friends on a Saturday night. I would have a huge problem if a white person used the N-word in front of me, regardless of who else was in the room. "Redneck" brushes aside people of a certain race and class as being hopelessly out of touch with the mainstream, which is sad. N does far worse--it dehumanizes people.

As you yourself point out, "redneck" has become a subculture within comedy. White comics--who might never have been called "redneck" themselves but who are willing to play rednecks on TV--are "reclaiming" the term as one of affection for wayward cousins. But by playing rednecks on TV, these comics also are marking themselves as not redneck. They know what a redneck is, and while they pretend to embrace their, er, neckedness, they actually are setting themselves apart from "real" rednecks by drawing borders around what makes someone a redneck, by defining what that person looks like and how he acts. And rule #1: A real redneck is not savvy enough to land a contract for a comedy series on national television.

There is one word that I don't think anyone has raised thus far in this conversation (at least in this post and its comments): queer. Queer was a term of denigration, but it was reclaimed by queer people as a mark of pride.

In similar ways, as I believe Whoopi Goldberg pointed out (but it may have been Sherri Shepherd--I can't remember who brought it up because it's been several days since I watched the video), N has been reclaimed by African Americans--but in a very different way. It's not a public reclaiming, except maybe in some rap music and comedy like Richard Pryor's. It will never--thank God--become a politically correct term like "queer" has become. It's such a loaded term that we're not even spelling it out in this space.

I can't tie this comment up neatly, but I just wanted to reflect a bit on redneck vs. queer vs. N, and how these words, all of which denigrate to different degrees, have taken very different paths to acceptance in different communities.

Thanks again for a great post, Nordette.

Leslie

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Maria Niles 5 pts

other than to the chorus of kudos to you (and Laina, Megan and all those who have commented on this and other posts) for a thoughtful, nuanced, necessary and important discussion.

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Nordette Adams 6 pts

I adapted "I'm frustrated" from your comment on Laina's post.  So, thank you. :-) 

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

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Nordette Adams 6 pts

First, thank you.  I'm glad you like Obama and want us all to live in peace and to overcome inequalities.  I'm glad we agree on some important matters.  Neverthess, I still get the impression you think I said something that I did not say. 

Did I say something that indicates it's okay to call people redneck?  Did I say anything that suggests it's okay to call people the "n" word?  Did I say that people no longer feel pain when being called "redneck" and that it's a universally acceptable word to use with people?  No, I did not.  In fact I said I don't use the word for the same reasons I hope no one uses the word "ni**er." I think it's clear I find racial slurs odious.

I realize it's a long post and a reader might overlook part of it, but I'm pretty sure I did not say anything that suggests I condone using such words or that people don't still feel pain over the use of slurs, even slurs that comedians use routinely in comedy routines.  In fact, I'm pretty sure I said that even the humor around these words is based on experiences with pain. 

Many people who say they're rednecks and proud of it howl with
laughter at Foxworthy's routine.  But where does the humor come from? 
I suspect it comes from a place of pain, the same way Richard Pryor's comedy ( http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/10/pryor.obit/index.... ), and he used the "n" word often, sometimes came from a place of pain.

And if you follow that quote futher, you'll find that I used the qualifier "some" before "white people" so as not to suggest that every single white person on the planet has embraced the word "redneck."   I'm sure there are white people who feel about the word "redneck" the way many blacks feel about the word "n*gg*r," which would be that it should not be used either in public or in private unless it's a discussion such as this one.

What I did do in my post was state how people have used both words.  And I stand behind calling people who use these word "uncivil."  If we can't learn to at least be civil to one another we're in trouble.  However, I know that the problem goes much deeper than civility.

Also, I do not think that being uncivil could legitimately be classified as a genetic disorder and anyone who posits such nonsense I would assume to be an atrocious, eugenics proponent who falls into the same class with Hitler.  As a black woman, I am loathe to ever embrace any ideas that any type of behavior that may be classified as ethical or unethical is genetic.  We'd be the first ones to whom the eugenics brigade would point a finger.

Gee, I don't think you have a lot of experience being called a redneck,
or would know if the term has been defused by white humor. I think it
would be counter-productive for me to whine about my unique personal
experiences, because as you said poverty is comlex. Programs that help
the poor, help whites too.

Pretty obvious that I would not be called a redneck.  I don't know that that word is ever applied to a black person 

I simply stated that there's an industry that's grown around the word "redneck" and that some white people say they're proud to be rednecks the way some black people claim the "n" word doesn't bug them.  That's a statement of fact and not my personal opinion.

I wouldn't have experience being called a redneck as I'm not white neither was I raised in dire poverty.  However, it is true that if I dressed in my best attire and a white person who thought of him/herself as a so-called "redneck" dressed in exactly the same attire in appearance, that I'd be subjected to forms of prejudice in mainstream parts of society that the white person would not be. I may be subjected to negative opinions about my skills at work, for instance, simply because of my skin color.  I can escape poverty and the signs of poverty as can anyone in America with the right tools, but I can't escape racism.  My skin identifies my origin.   The only good thing I can say on this subject is that some people are not as racist as others and laws have changed to make blatant discrimination illegal.

It has been my experience that mass opinion feels a few winners recitifies the woes of many.

That has been my experience as well.  It won't be long before some parts of the population are declaring that we have no problems with race or poverty because Obama made it.  Some folks already point at Oprah this way. 

I too would not like to quibble about class and how people are treated differently based on social class in this discussion because this discussion is about using the "N" word and how other groups also use words in a less threatening way, words that have been used to disparage them.  I really don't want to go another area on this right now because I don't think anything good comes from bluster about whose pain is greater when it comes to poor whites vs. blacks, of whom some are quite wealthy.  If we do that then we become dupes to divide and conquer methodologies.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

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PhazingOut 5 pts

Hi Nordette,

I suspect we are from different generations, maybe from different parts of the country. If I am out of sync with your point perhaps you could attribute that to differences in our experiences. I lived in a white trailor park in the middle of Liberty City (the police pulled me over for driving home with my windows down in the middle of the summer). We were not the target the business community was. Yes, that's rage. When people rise up and publically rebel in mass.. it's rage. I don't want to validate my point or argue. I do want you to understand that's what I refer to as rage. It wasn't about people who were angry over an isolated incident. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_City_Riots

The word "redneck" implies in one breath that a person is stupid,
uneducated, possibly toothless and dirty, and "poor white trash" (a
truly horrible phrase). Yet, whites who are most likely to come from a family background that the uncivil would call "redneck" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redneck ) call each other "redneck" in jest.

Gee, I don't think you have a lot of experience being called a redneck, or would know if the term has been defused by white humor. I think it would be counter-productive for me to whine about my unique personal experiences, because as you said poverty is comlex. Programs that help the poor, help whites too.

I took exception to people using the "N" as a young woman because the harm was so obvious. People who were once cast in a submissive role could not rise because they shared an oppressed group identity. But the damage goes far deeper than that. I took an African dance class recently because a young woman invited me (in New York). When I tried to follow her lead, I felt it undermined her cofidence.. as though I was judging her. My son's friend is one of those black kids who got the Merry Christmas choral at Tuffs, and he wanted to know if I felt it was unfair that he had gone to such a great school when my son was given remedial education. We love him very much and of coarse I told him I was proud of his accomplishments. I have also at other times told him we we just people someone set in the woods and when they came back a hundred years later, we hadn't died.

What I fear is that as an uppper class black presence is created in American society, that poor blacks will suffer more. The constant hopelessness and assault on pride will bring friction and some simple slang will distinguish the victims as uncivil and undeserving people who are somehow genetically different the others. It has been my experience that mass opinion feels a few winners recitifies the woes of many.

If you are lax on words that you use privately among friends, it doesn't dignify the pubic use of the word. It means different things coming from different people at different times. When we can't acknowledge the damage, we discredit the rage that some will certainly feel. Or as I was told as a child, "Don't talk to those people, don't get them stirred up." The rage becomes volcano and seperates us all; not the frustration of a lost opportunity to teach. I believe that more often, it is most important that people are not invisible in their suffering.

There is no doubt that black America has rallied to Obama, but I am glad about that.  I don't really see him as being black, his mother is white his childhood seemed pretty white to me.   But most of black America isn't particularly black and as long as the divisions of race cause harm in this country Obama will be black.  He will also be a world leader.  Just like Clinton doesn't ever completely loose his accent, Obama is a strong statement for the values of black culture and leadership.   If that happens to reflect on white Americans, perhaps we will all will share that pride.   

Nordette Adams 6 pts

You've had a unique blessing, Miriam, to experience what it's like to be one of few and then to see inside a culture that had you lived elsewhere may not have seen. I don't think some people understand that the ability and opportunity to know and empathize with people unlike yourself is a gift that if handled properly only makes you richer.

I'm recalling now how the late Randy Pausch ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com/2008/07/randy-pausch-d... ) quoted the saying that it's not the cards we're dealt but how we play our hand.  When we take life, learn, and grow, we make life better not only for ourselves but also for the world around us.

Some people spend time around other cultures and come away with their negative opinions strengthened.  We get what we give and see what we prefer to see. 

I appreciate your sharing your experiences in this discussion.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

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Nordette Adams 6 pts

Thanks, Sue.  You're not alone in feeling this sadness, but let's hope that as we continue these types of discussions, we grow and overcome this negative quality in our human condition. 

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

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Nordette Adams 6 pts

Yes, Megan, I know how you feel. I linked to you in this post in the parentheses regarding people who disagree with Whoopi's defense. Thank you for that. People often think confuse understanding an argument and seeing the other person's point means that you practice what they practice. No, it simply means you understand what they're saying.

Also, the final point of my post is the same you make here. It shouldn't concern us what people call each other within their own groups, and that would include groups of black people when we're black as well but have been raised differently and taught to follow a more civil standard and to be polite as well as to treat people with dignity. We're accountable for what we do and that's why the best way is to treat people as you want to be treated and teach your children to do the same.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

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Megan Smith 5 pts

Hi Nordette,

I'd like to add my thanks to everyone else's for such a powerful post.  Like Laina did in her post ( http://www.blogher.com/latest-dust-view-and-hipste... ), you were able to broaden the discussion from "The View" to a larger discussion that relates to the rest of us.

As you know, I'm of the opinion that neither blacks or white should be calling me n*gger.  And though I agree with you about the use of the word "redneck" and "bitch" and "heifer," I don't care what other groups want to call themselves.  Because I'm black, I'm more concerned with what black people call themselves, how they treat each other, and how we move ourselves forward. 

When it comes to white people like Elisabeth Hasselbeck and their puzzlement over this discussion and seeing it from the outside, you're absolutely right when you say:

Part of the problem may be that some white people deny how much power they've enjoyed in this world, do not wish to consciously grasp the value of having white skin ( http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1316/is_n5_... ) in a society that has historically favored white skin.

So, they tell themselves that if there are any benefits to being white, they personally have not experienced it and so, therefore, have not benefited no matter what Andrew Hacker ( http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1316/is_n5_... ) and those hoity-toity academics ( http://www.blogher.com/are-liberal-professors-brai... ) think. 

But whites can get away with calling themselves whatever derogatory terms they want because they are still white.  And like I said in my own post ( http://www.megansminute.com/2008/07/whoopi-goldber... )on this issue, I think the use by performers of inflammatory language, has a lot to do with them being performers.  They are trying to make a name for themselves and part of that involves being different and/or outrageous.  Whoopi Goldberg and Jeff Foxworthy don't live in the same world as the rest of us. 

As an example, I can't listen to most uncensored standup comedy routines by black performers because their use of the word n*gger insults, hurts and saddens me. 

My ancestors didn't fight and die to allow performers or anyone else to call me n*gger. 

Do I understand the argument some blacks make for using the word?  Yes, I just don't agree with them.  Do I think that means it will stop tomorrow?  No, although I wish it would.  Do I think that race hatred will continue whether the word is used or not?  Unfortunately, yes.

But talking and writing about it is still better than not talking or writing about it, and shining a light on our motives and feelings, whether we're black or white, can only be a good thing.

Megan Smith ( http://www.blogher.com/haystackprofile/viewprofile... )
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suebob 7 pts

Great post with a lot of really good points. It makes me sad that we still want to dehumanize each other in any way.

Nordette Adams 6 pts

No disagreement here.  Thanks for commenting. 

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

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theauthoress 5 pts

I'm new to BlogHer ... and it's funny that I'd stumble across this topic because I just wrote about it on my own blog. ( http://ldpundit.blogspot.com/2008/07/who-is-nigger... )

I didn't see the Whoopi-Elisabeth dust-up about the "N" word, but I feel that one should avoid using it at all costs.  (I'm not a fan of the show ... but I digress.)  Don't get me wrong: I'm not calling for censorship ... but why justify using it as a "term of endearment" when another six-letter word -- friend -- is just as suitable.  I'm a Black woman, and I'd never refer to myself that way because there's so much more to me than my skin color.  It's bad enough that racism still exists in 2008; I have no interest in perpetuating stereotypes about my ethnicity by allowing someone to call me out of my name.

A similar argument can be made for the "B" word.  Some women don't mind being addressed as such ... but I never caught a frisbee with my mouth, fetched a newspaper, or rolled over and played dead for another person's amusement.  The View panelists involved in this dispute are old enough to know that education is the best tool to combat ignorance.  Then again, maybe I'm just being naive.

MiriamAnton 5 pts

Thank you for this post.  What people need to realize is that there simply is no equivalent to the n-word.  I hesitated to watch the View video because the ignorance and shelteredness (is that a word?) of folks like Ms Hasselbeck just makes my blood boil.

I grew up in predominantly black neighborhoods in Philadelphia, was one of two white families on my block up until age nine and the only white kid in a class of 32 when I was in public school.

The context of the use of the n-word never confused me – for instance, when classmates used it I knew they were granted some unspoken permission but that for me it represented hate, bigotry and ugliness and it was never okay.

This topic is so interesting and I think many whites (like EH) just don’t understand or relate to the notion of “other” or living with any knowledge of what marginalization really means.  I’m often asked “what was it like being the only white kid?”  And my response…I didn’t know any different!  But I can say I learned a lot about issues of race and otherness at a very young age.

When my best friend (we’ll call her Tanya) and I were eight, our mothers sent us off to sleep over camp for two weeks.  It was our first time away from home and we shared a bunk together among four or five girls.  This was the first time I remember being truly cognizant of our racial differences.  I was no longer the only white kid since the camp was predominantly white.  But this wasn’t the case for Tanya.  A few days into our stay, we sat commiserating over our shared homesickness.  Tanya was particularly saddened and said to me, “I miss my people.”  Attempting to cheer her up I added, “But Tanya, I’m your people!”  And she then replied, “No – I miss my people.” For the first time, I really got it.  My immediate feeling (from my eight year old self) was that she’d punched me in the gut – I felt a great sense of rejection and not being enough for her…even though I was like family, I still was not her people.

Part of the reason that EH from the View got all teary (I can only guess) is that she can’t accept this notion – that our experiences of race/racism/differences/otherness can’t be made to go away when we want them too and that language (slang/pejorative/colloquial/racist and otherwise) is complicated.  I was lucky in a sense that I grew up in a setting where there was an open dialogue about race and there was no hiding from real discussion.  Careful PC talk and the veil of academic jargon can often cripple us from really talking about race – I’ve been following lots of these threads and I really value this forum!

Laracolvin 5 pts

That was an amazing post. I don't have much to add in this comment (for once!). As I alluded to in Laina's piece a few days ago, I strongly believe there is much work left for white people to engage in regarding power/privilege/opression/unintentional (and intentional) consequences in this society. I hope posts like yours and Laina's  inspire more than just a few of us to have this discussion.

Thanks again.

-Lara

Notions of Identity ( http://www.notionsofidentity.com )

Nordette Adams 6 pts

Thanks, Maria. Dropped by Immoral Matriarch ( http://immoralmatriarch.com/ ). Ha! You've got a wicked sense of humor. LOL. :-) I've actually been by before but didn't have time to drop you a line. The name of the blog alone is hoot.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette )

Nordette Adams 6 pts

Thank you, AM.  I'm glad you enjoyed this post and got the analogy

I dropped by on your KungFu Panda post, and also wanted you to know that your Boston Kids Spots post ( http://www.blogher.com/great-spots-kids-boston-0 ) is a good guide for parents in Boston.  It's the kind of guide I would have published when I ran a localized parenting magazine years ago. 

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette )

Nordette Adams 6 pts

Phazaing Out, thank you for your commentary, to which I responded below. I thought I clicked a reply to you, but instead it went here:

http://www.blogher.com/season-our-discontent-or-li...

Glad you took the time to comment.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette )

Nordette Adams 6 pts

This comment was written in response to PhazingOut's comment near the top ( http://www.blogher.com/season-our-discontent-or-li... ). 

I thank you for your thoughtful response, Phazing Out. However, I did wonder about this section:

As much as I believe in your cause, I am focused on not engaging you on
the issues of "Rednecks" in the south or whether white people who can
barely read or write, deserve to thrive.

I said nothing in this post that implies poor or uneducated whites don't have a right to thrive. There's nothing here that suggest I believe any group should suffer injustice. I really don't understand what you mean with that part of your comment and feel you bring your own assumptions to the discussion about so-called "black rage" that are not in the spirit of this post.

Also, I appreciate your willingness to believe that Obama can be a world leader; however, I think he's already surpassed being a so-called "black leader." ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com/search/label/oh%20nuts ) His appeal clearly crosses ethnic groups and by his own words he wants to speak for all Americans, not just the ethnic group with which he identifies.

Thank you again for sharing your views, especially your calling attention to the dire poverty some people in this nation face. Some theorists believe racism and poverty, when it comes to black people, are correlated. However, if we strive to unite, then whatever solutions that help one group on the bottom socioeconically should help all groups on the bottom. For instance, Civil Rights legislation designed initially to help African-Americans ultimately helped all people struggling for equality. Fair housing laws, written to stop discrimination against blacks, helped other groups that faced housing discrimination. And any poverty program instituted by the government that may have been initiated with African-Americans in mind inevitably also helped poor white Americans. We'd like to think we're in different boats when it comes to poverty and injustice, but we're on the same ship, sink or float.

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is hosted on another site at this link ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ).

( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette )