SeaWorld Trainer Killed By Orca

Hey Camille,

Thanks for stopping by and taking the time to dive in deep. I end up learning so much from those who take the time to respond. It also forces me to articulate my opinions and I've come to learn that some are well-founded and some are just based on flimsy assumptions.

But the trick for any of us is listening hard and staying open. How else can we learn?

~ClizBiz

I agree.  Its a hard lesson to learn to listen to those that disagree strongly.  I am not great at it.

I wonder what the result would be if we listened to the Orca's a little more carefully....so sad.

There are some really great arguements and points made in this convo.  I am glad I took the time to read through everything.

I especially appreciate those that are open to other opinions and willing to examine where their own assumptions come from (like YOU Clizbiz.)

So - thanks!

You are absolutely right, of course, and I didn't mean to compare myself to animals in zoos - just that humans already observe one another in this way.

The aspect of free will is the pivotal point here. Agreed.

~ClizBiz

BlogHer Contributing Editor, Animal & Wildlife Concerns, Proprietor, ClizBiz ( http://www.clizbiz.blogspot.com/ )

and I am talking about your comment that one must compare bored sentient animals. Teens are bored, caged, sentient animals prone to lash out.
( http://twitter.com/thatwoman )
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Yes.  I had the unfortunate chance to see just that (elephants pacing around in a tiny enclosure) at the Honolulu Zoo last month. I found it heartbreaking.  Back and forth.  Back and forth.  Apparently, the zoo is building a new elephant habitat, but in the mean time, these creatures have been stuck in this tiny area for far too long.  Enough is enough.

Beth Terry: attempting to live plastic-free and blogging the heck out of it at FakePlasticFish.com ( http://www.fakeplasticfish.com ). Follow her on Twitter ( http://twitter.com/fakeplasticfish ).

Stephanie, I hear that that is your opinion, but I don't think it can be stated as a fact that humans and animals are not equally entitled to freedom on a moral basis.  We protect ourselves from animals as we do from other humans because we want to stay alive.  But beyond that, do we have the right to cage them and bribe them to perform tricks for us?  My opinion is no, we do not.

As Heather said, humans developed the concept of morality.  So, if we are moral beings, does our morality allow us to capture and cage against another being's will?  Because we are able to empathize with other creature's pain (even if it is anthropomorphic) doesn't that give us the moral imperative to refrain from causing them pain?

I've been listening to Jonathan Safran Foer's book Eating Animals.  One statement hit me so hard I had to play it again and write it down.

Nature isn't cruel and neither are the animals in nature that kill and occasionally even torture one another.  Cruelty depends on an understanding of cruelty and the ability to choose against it or choose to ignore it.

For me, capturing and caging a wild animal is cruel and I can choose not to support the practice.

Beth Terry: attempting to live plastic-free and blogging the heck out of it at FakePlasticFish.com ( http://www.fakeplasticfish.com ). Follow her on Twitter ( http://twitter.com/fakeplasticfish ).

The blessing:

It was your choice to leave your family and be there.  You had the freedom to go back to your family, too.

And those observing you did not trap you, nor force you to remain in a container, for your lifetime.

One Friday night, Isle Dance ( http://isledance.blogspot.com ) loaded up her life and headed out...

Here are the facts on the wild Orca, their captures and their detainments.  Reading this will help make a difference to those Orcas (and humans) who belong with their families...which stay together for life.

http://www.orcanetwork.org/news/tillikumnewsreleas...

http://www.orcanetwork.org/captivity/captivity.htm...

http://www.savelolita.com/

http://www.savethewhales.org/captivity.html

http://www.whaleresearch.com/

One Friday night, Isle Dance ( http://isledance.blogspot.com ) loaded up her life and headed out...

Me too. ;)

TW,

I see your point here about the differences in media coverage in regional school shootings. Your stat about the number of kids dying in Chicago last year is chilling. I had no idea and I'm so sorry to learn this. Is the blogging community (or BlogHer's child/education/law blogger) covering this?

I feel like school shootings are in the news constantly to the point that I've (sadly) become almost immune to feeling anything. This frightens the hell out of me. I agree that the 'safe' white suburban incidents get covered more but let's face it, the one-day massacres are going to get more TV cameras no matter where they occur.

Still, I have to confess, I don't understand the connection between inner city school shootings and a Florida whale who killed a trainer. Are you talking about the difference in media coverage? The situations are apples and oranges - two completely different scenarios, comparing them seems like a stretch to me

~ClizBiz

BlogHer Contributing Editor, Animal & Wildlife Concerns, Proprietor, ClizBiz ( http://www.clizbiz.blogspot.com/ )

All death and violence and forced detainment is horrid.

I'd think it important that we not teach young humans to round up and detain others for life in a small container.

One Friday night, Isle Dance ( http://isledance.blogspot.com ) loaded up her life and headed out...

Thanks for sharing where you're at.

Of course, we see this differently.

I hope this allows people to see more than one side.

One Friday night, Isle Dance ( http://isledance.blogspot.com ) loaded up her life and headed out...

School shootings are a big deal in suburban Colorado. They are covered nationwide.Littleton is a safe, middle class white suburb. Columbine was tragic. Horrible. As were the killings in Springfield, Oregon. As were so many school shootings-senseless-bizarre-my children look at school lock down drills like we looked at fire drills as kids.

But here? More than double the children who died at Columbine were killed in or near Chicago schools last year alone. That doesn't count injuries-some injuries so severe those children will never grow up to care for themselves. That doesn't count the masses of children who sit through substandard education in the city. That doesn't count the children too afraid to leave home to try to get that education because of the violence. The media can't cover it. The national media doesn't care about it...not even as the country elects a man from this city with these schools where children die.

Parents, teachers and administrators are broken hearted each day because a student has been shot. Or they just know it is the price of living in a city that doesn't value some children's lives, knows that school is just a stop gap point for these children before they follow the footsteps of their parents, poverty or near poverty.
( http://twitter.com/thatwoman )
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Until animals start talking, we have to guess at their perspective on this whole captivity thing. Without a life in the wild, they've got no reference point other than their instincts, which are still quite strong, I'm sure.

Your point about the quality of zoos is important. I know that San Diego and the Bronx Zoos are amazing, for both the animals and the visitors. Others, such as the Dallas Zoo, have terrible reputations.

In any case, you are probably right about the orcas. These are kings of the ocean and we've got them paddling around in little pools. Ugh.

~ClizBiz

BlogHer Contributing Editor, Animal & Wildlife Concerns, Proprietor, ClizBiz ( http://www.clizbiz.blogspot.com/ )

Whether or not an animal might prefer the safety and comfort of a zoo to their natural wild habitat might depend entirely...on the nature of the zoo.  Is their area large enough?  Does it incorporate other animals for those that are very social such as elephants?  Does it in any way try to imitate the habitat the animal has in the wild?  This is an enormously important factor.  How many of you have seen an elephant pace around a tiny zoo enclosure until it goes crazy?  It's sickening.  The pools that the Orca are kept in at Sea World are not much bigger than those found in the back yard of most Beverly Hills celebrities.  In fact, the Orca pools are probably smaller than the cement ponds of the rich and famous.  Other than humans, the whale species (to which the dolphin and orca belong) is most likely the most intelligent on the planet.  To imprison an orca in a tiny enclosure where all it can do is eat, breed or perform is not acceptable.  You think they are bored?  They are probably insane.

Except, again, humans do not share a moral parity with animals.  There isn't even a comparison.  Animals are not people with fur and four legs.  No matter how much animal "rights" activists want to assign animals human traits and charactaristics, they just aren't there.  It's imaginative wishful thinking at best; at worst I think it devalues the lives of humans (women, wives, and girls per your example) to perpetuate this myth that there is no difference between the percieved "rights" of animals and human rights.

Also, zoos do not exist because people "love animals and want to be with them".  They are about education and conservation.  They protect endangered species and many work to defend against the destruction of wild animal's natural habitats and other things of that nature.  Something I'd imagine you'd be supportive of.

Container might be a more neutral word.

Which of us would sign up to be kept in a controlled container, for life?

We know it's wrong (and illegal) if a human chooses to take another (child, wife, girl) to a container, away from their family.  Yet the person doing so, says, "But I just loved them so much, I wanted to be with them..."

One Friday night, Isle Dance ( http://isledance.blogspot.com ) loaded up her life and headed out...

This is absolutely a tragedy for the family of the trainer.  I am so sorry for their loss.

One Friday night, Isle Dance ( http://isledance.blogspot.com ) loaded up her life and headed out...

I'm not sure what policy could have prevented this tragedy. No doubt this incident will be interpreted eight different ways but I doubt anything will change from it. Watching the videos this morning of Dawn performing with other whales is just a heart breaker. You can see she was doing exactly what she loved.

RIP Dawn.

~ClizBiz

BlogHer Contributing Editor, Animal & Wildlife Concerns, Proprietor, ClizBiz ( http://www.clizbiz.blogspot.com/ )

Hey Jen,

So sorry you are freezing and mad at your computer. I'm with you though. It seems odd that they are going to continue to use the whale in shows but it would be even worse to put him down. I mean, what do you do with a massive animal who knows nothing else?

~ClizBiz

BlogHer Contributing Editor, Animal & Wildlife Concerns, Proprietor, ClizBiz ( http://www.clizbiz.blogspot.com/ )

Morality is a human invention, which is why we end up saying ridiculous things like, "That evil wolf ate that cute bunny rabbit!" Ridiculous. There is no place for this in Nature where there is no right or wrong, only Is.

However, I do agree that describing zoos as prisons is taking it too far. I have no doubt that the people who care for zoo animals do their very best to love and provide care, as in the case of Dawn. As I said, I don't see zoos going away any time soon.

~ClizBiz

BlogHer Contributing Editor, Animal & Wildlife Concerns, Proprietor, ClizBiz ( http://www.clizbiz.blogspot.com/ )

...that the scenario you describe was an episode of 'The Twilight Zone.' An especially creepy one at that.

But we're already doing this and it works both ways. When I was camping in Africa, every morning I would have a gaggle of local children watching my every move. They found tooth brushing and hair brushing especially fascinating. So, who was in the zoo then?

~ClizBiz

BlogHer Contributing Editor, Animal & Wildlife Concerns, Proprietor, ClizBiz ( http://www.clizbiz.blogspot.com/ )

TW,

Actually, your paragraph about captive life jarred something loose in my brain. Not long ago, Jane Goodall was asked her thoughts about animals living in zoos v. living in the wild. I'm paraphrasing here but she said something like: "Hmmm. Let's see, all your medical and nutritional needs taken care of versus having to scrounge in the wild ... Well, I know if I were an animal, I'd rather live in a zoo."

I was shocked, SHOCKED, I tell you. This is a woman who has studied wild animals for most of her life giving an endorsement to zoos. It gives me pause and your point is well taken.

As for school shootings, this is a very sensitive topic here in Colorado, as you can imagine. We've just had a shooting at Deer Creek School and the media is covering it nonstop so I just don't see a hesitancy to report this on a local level. At least not from where I live

~ClizBiz

BlogHer Contributing Editor, Animal & Wildlife Concerns, Proprietor, ClizBiz ( http://www.clizbiz.blogspot.com/ )

But you see, humans and animals are not morally equivilent. Never have been, never will be.

I absolutely will encourage my children to take adventurous vacations as you suggested, but since they're three and eleven months, right now we go to the zoo to see the things we read about in books.  We learn about conservation, endangered species, and we get to feed the goats.  We see well fed, nurtured, beautiful animals.  Sometimes I loosen up enough to let my three year old pet the snake. 

I think it's a little silly to describe zoos as some sort of prison facility for our poor, belaguered furry friends. 

training such a big mammal is dangerous and workers knows loves them and knows the risk. Even telly caused 3 deaths, there's no point in putting it down because in the firts place it is not meant to live in a tank and entertain people. Surely, there's policy to be changed to ensure the safety of tainers.

Jane,

Thank you so much for saying that they belong in the wild...

One Friday night, Isle Dance ( http://isledance.blogspot.com ) loaded up her life and headed out...

This is a moment when I'd like to encourage us to think about this...

Would it be fun and entertaining if some of our unique, interesting and fascinating young humans - those we'd not normally get to interact with - were rounded up for permanent detainment and display for other humans to observe?

Or might we want to encourage humans to take adventurous vacations, where they could see and learn about those fascinating creatures in their native environment?

One Friday night, Isle Dance ( http://isledance.blogspot.com ) loaded up her life and headed out...

I believe was captured in Iceland at the age of two if I remember right.

I can't say that I am shocked when animals act like animals. 

As for the Cocker-yes-he is a domestic breed, but because of that was bred for traits that ultimately make him more dangerous than the average Orca in an odd sort of way.

The semis-analogy was more about deadly jobs with big things that impress kids.

Though I suppose I could use the analogy of being a  high school student in this area and the fact that their lives definitely involve the chance that they "fuck" with an animal that has a brain, a pair of eyes and an overall desire not to be fucked with...and more of them die each year than animal trainers in just this one city. 34 deaths and three hundred shootings of students in Chicago in 08-09 school year. Students. Children. Human children die just going to school in Chicago. Killed by other students, by young adults, by adults.

Does that make national news? No. It barely makes local news...and even then it may not make the news.

One whale who has taught more children and adults about the intelligence and magnificence of Orcas most likely accidentally killed a trainer-and it is all news, all the time. We want to save this whale from a life of nutritious food, top of the line health care, and a team of people interested in keeping him happy and stimulated because he is possibly bored and sometimes dangerous.

Where we know there are definitely dangerous, definitely bored teens without even the health care and food who will kill or die this year without a squeak from any of the treehuggers/set the animals free people.
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hearing about that drifters death in his tank. I was like, wtf how did someone just come upon this tank.

Also, they will be using him in future shows.

I had a big post all typed up and lost it. Now i'm freezing and don't want to retype it all!

I will just say, this is devastating any way you look at it. The poor creature is living in confined quarters, he has every right to get cranky. They don't belong in a tank. Sea World had procedures in place to try and prevent this type of thing happening, but it did. It's sad and I'm so devastated for the womans family who died. I would be more devastated if they put that beautiful creature down because of it. They said on the news this morning that they will be using him in future shows. I'm not sure how I feel about that. 

I'm freezing right now and I can't think or articulate what I want to say since I LOST everything. Now I'm just peeved about that. 

I, too, was shocked to learn that the same whale already had three deadly incidents in his past. Maybe those who work with these animals didn't see them as warnings but rather, isolated incidents.

I will be curious to see if Tilly 'works' again in the biz or if he will be retired. I sure hope they don't decide to put him down - it would add insult to injury.

Either way, this is a horrible time for the trainer's family. Keep 'em in your prayers, folks.

~ClizBiz

BlogHer Contributing Editor, Animal & Wildlife Concerns, Proprietor, ClizBiz ( http://www.clizbiz.blogspot.com/ )

I don't have a problem with zoos and shows like this in general; I think they're fun and entertaining and I love taking my children to see animals up close and personal - an opportunity they wouldn't have if we didn't have zoos.  What I have a hard time with regarding this story is that this whale has attacked two other people; one of them died (I don't remember if the other died or was just injured).  I don't know why this particular whale was still a part of these shows when he was clearly a danger to humans.  It's so very, very sad.  My heart goes out to the poor trainer's family.

Jessica, Thanks for your excellent point from an historical perspective. Before we had TV and the Internet, we had two options for learning: reading books and leaving the house. Zoos had a real function then for animal exposure. Then again, I know plenty of folks who like going to zoos and closing them down would be wildly unpopular. 

In an ideal world, I think your solution (stopping adding to the problem, let the current captives live in peace) would be put into practice. Not sure if we are there yet but incidents like this keep the conversation going.

~ClizBiz

BlogHer Contributing Editor, Animal & Wildlife Concerns, Proprietor, ClizBiz ( http://www.clizbiz.blogspot.com/ )

I saw this report and my gut response was let Tilly go, but then, like TW, I have to think this animal is not equipped to live in the wild.  However, I really think it argues the point not to bring any more of these creatures into these exhibits to perform tricks for us.  One of the original point of zoos was to expose people to animals they would never have the opportunity to see and thereby help with conservation.  That was over a hundred years ago.  I think, with television and the internet, we have gotten beyond that.  Maybe it's time to stop bringing these animals into zoos and just let those still remaining live their lives as comfortably as they can in a cage out of their natural environment.

Jessica Anne adventureswiththreegirls.blogspot.com

TW,

I'm glad you have pointed out that these trainers love their jobs, the animals and know well the risks. A tragedy like this hurts their families and colleagues deeply. The question here is, why are we always so shocked when animals act like animals?

To your point, Tilly (born in captivity) probably wouldn't know the first thing about ocean living but those instincts don't get muted in one generation. After all, we're the ones who named the breed 'killer whale' so I'm not sure where the surprise comes from. Meanwhile, your cocker spaniel is so far removed from its wolf ancestors, it also wouldn't last five minutes. Cocker Spaniels are not wild animals - never were.

As for semi-trailers, show me one with a brain, a heart, a pair of eyes and an overall desire not to be fucked with and maybe I'll consider your analogy.

~ClizBiz

BlogHer Contributing Editor, Animal & Wildlife Concerns, Proprietor, ClizBiz ( http://www.clizbiz.blogspot.com/ )

There may be plenty of happy, captive animals in show biz but clearly, Tilly isn't one of them. Do we really need to see these sea creatures jump through hoops and whatnot? Does it further our understanding of their lives in the ocean? 

I have serious doubts.

~ClizBiz

BlogHer Contributing Editor, Animal & Wildlife Concerns, Proprietor, ClizBiz ( http://www.clizbiz.blogspot.com/ )

I think the orcas are just fine at SeaWorld and I wouldn't hesitate to take my kids to see them again.

I don't stop pointing out trains or semis to my kids when someone gets killed in a work related accident. People die on farms but I don't stop saying hi to cows. Animal training is a dangerous job-likely not as dangerous as the sedentary blogging but still dangers. People who love doing this work and have a passion for these animals do that job knowing the risks.

My two dogs are likely far more dangerous than even this whale involved if you look at it in years and aggressive behavior. No one suggests we set our cocker spaniel free to live in the wild...and before you say it...I doubt Tilly is any more equipped to be in the wild...a nearly thirty year old whale-in captivity since 1983.

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I really hope they change their policy.

Large brained marine mammals (Orca and Dolphin) do not belong in captivity for the entertainment of humans.  Period.  It is amazing to me that a tragedy of this scope has not happened already.  I am very sad for the trainer and her family, but I hope this changes policy for Sea World.  Let the orcas go back to the wild.