Should Bars Refuse to Serve Pregnant Women?

while I undesrstand the reasoning on both sides of the fence, I must agree that it should be the woman's choice to drink or not. I did not during my pregnancy since nothing would stay down. One question that should be asked though is, should the restaurant or bar who serves pregnant women alcohol liable for any birth problems later on? I don't believe that would be fair to the establishment who's trying to look after their customers or their own business. Is it a civil right that is violated or is a pregnancy being compromised because of one drink? While I side with the woman who wants to exercise her right to drink, she shouldn't include others that would not condone what she thinks is her right.

It is one thing to make unfortunate choices by oneself, but it is quite another thing to require others to enable one to make those unfortunate choices happen.

In other words, if you're responsible for the well-being of someone else, inside of you or across the table from you, don't make unfortunate choices. Grow a pair. Go without. Wait until the coast is clear. Don't insist that someone participate in your choice without their consent.

And to insist that you be aided and abetted in making a choice that could be dangerous to an innocent person is selfish to the extreme. If booze is your inseparable counterpart, the VERY least you can do is not force someone else to furnish you with it and possibly help impair another human being.

Am I being militant? Hell yeah. Childish adults who insist on their own way and call "foul" when someone says "Hey, wait a minute there" make me tired. A child's well-being ALWAYS trumps an adult's selfish simpering wish.

Bring it on.

I think it's fine for them to refuse to serve her. As people said, it's her choice if she wants to have a drink, and I'm not going to judge that choice (I indulged on occasion while pregnant myself), but it's also a known health risk so it puts her into a different category of patron. Kind of like not serving anyone under 21 or anyone who appears to be overly intoxicated. They are no longer just a customer, they are customers that fall into a category that influences the restaurant's decision to serve them.

Jennifer Barr is a wife and working mom of two beautiful girls, 3 going on 13 and 9 months, which means she's sleep deprived but constantly kept on her toes! Most of those experiences are chronicled on her blog, http://midwestmomments.blogspot.com.

so it's ok for a business to discriminate against a person based on their medical status? that doesn't seem right to me.

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I don't think it's at all bad if a woman decides to have a glass or two of wine while pregnant. I believe I had a half a glass while pregnant, but then realized I just didn't have the taste for it.

Yes, I believe a woman should be able to make this decision for herself and do so responsibly.

Yes, I understand that the restaurant has the right to not serve someone (but not necessarily for these reasons) and they may or may not be doing so as a way to 'cover their butts'.

Just for thought provoking sake though...the restaurant would not nor could not serve that baby/child if it were born because it's underage. I think we can all agree that it is a baby at this stage in the game (let's not get into that controversery of when a fetus becomes a human), so couldn't we posit that the restaurant can't serve her because doing so would essentially be serving someone under the legal drinking age? :) Just sayin'

I think this is an issue where there is no definate line. I personally have had a glass of wine here or ther during my pregnancy, but also once being a server I wouldnt feel comfortable serving a pregnant woman, thats just my own personal feelings. It is their choice and hope to God they arent getting drunk during pregnancy. But it is not the servers place or the establishments place to refuse this womans right. The only law is to be 21 yrs of age. Now if she was going overboard then I think any good hearted person would say something.

I am astonished to find so many people on this site defending the right of the restaurant to make medical decisions on behalf of an apparently competent adult.

Sure, fetal alcohol syndrome is real and should be taken seriously. But it also isn't caused by having an occasional glass of wine or beer while pregnant. Most babies born with FAS have mothers who regularly drank 5 or more alcoholic beverages per day, particularly early in pregnancy.

If this kind of intervention is permissible, where do we draw the line? A barista at Starbucks attempted to dissuade me from having a caffeinated coffee when I was 7 or 8 months along. I complained to his manager.

I also didn't exercise much at all, and ate lunch meat. Should I have been refused service at Subway? Forced to join a class at a gym? Should sushi restaurants and Starbucks also refuse pregnant women service? Should we all be forced to eat only the diet proscribed in What to Expect?

No. At least for those of us who are pregnant as adults, we are responsible for making our own choices. Yes, we SHOULD be well informed about the potential consequences of those choices. And most women who are, make mostly good choices.

By the way, my aunt is an OB/GYN. When her own daughter was 7 or 8 months pregnant, she took my cousin to lunch and advised her to have a glass of wine. And when I was 40 weeks pregnant with my firstborn, my midwife recommended red wine with dinner to help me relax and encourage the baby to come.

In other words, it is not even a universal belief within the ACTUAL practice of medicine/opinions of medical specialists focused on helping women to have healthy babies, that no alcohol should pass through the lips of a pregnant person.

IMO, these choices are exclusively the right of the adult woman making them, with input from her health care providers, and potentially discussion with close family and friends. Everyone else should mind their own business.

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I think the underlying issue here is what our culture condones regarding the public dictation of a pregnant woman's behavior, not so much customer dissatisfaction. Yes, this blog post was about one incident at one bar with one woman - but the problem is not limited to that one incident, but rather is exemplified in that one occurrence.

I don't think the waitress was telling the pregnant woman she couldn't drink at all. By saying 'We don't serve pregnant women here' she was saying exactly that... they don't serve pregnant women.

Why does everyone have to jump on a bandwagon? If someone refuses to serve you, then move on to another establishment for crying out loud!!!

I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next gal but it is actually quite common in many circles even here and in various other countries and cultures. Depending on this woman's social circles, her region of the US, and her family and her culture, she may not have thought anything of ordering a single glass of wine.

I'd be interested in knowing who was really responsible for this message being relayed to patron: the waitress, the restaurant management, or perhaps a bartender out of sight that looked out and said, "No way -- I'm not making that." Who exactly is refusing the service? I'm just curious how it really went down.

Just the same, although i never drank when I was pregnant, I think even if I had decided to have a glass, I'd have been mortified for anyone in public to see me doing so with such mixed social and medical opinions on the subject. It makes me wonder a little if this wasn't a stunt by the pregnant woman to make a statement of her own and gain attention as gender-opressed?

People are so sanctimonious about this and so many subjects regarding pregnancy! In many, MANY other so-called first world countries, an expectant mother is in no way told to never consume alcohol. There is a huge difference between a glass of wine at dinner and going on a bender at a bar. If she'd 'bellied' up to the bar and ordered a boilermaker, then yes, that would raise an eyebrow or two, because that is rather crazy. However it's still her right to be irresponsible. The mother to be who's sitting at dinner ordering a glass of wine is not the problem -- it's the mom to be alone at home, struggling with an addiction and becoming intoxicated on a daily or more often basis.

Perhaps most of us don't choose any alcohol while pregnant, nursing, or even when the kids are asleep in bed at night. That, too is OUR CHOICE.

Choice is the key word here. We try to teach our children about choices and making 'good' choices, but then attempt to infantilize full grown adults, assuming they're not capable of choosing wisely. These same people would protect a woman's CHOICE to terminate a pregnancy, I bet, and fail to see the irony 99 out of 100 times.

Does anyone not recognize the bigger issue here? The issue should not be whether or not the bar is refusing to serve alcohol to a pregnant woman but the fact that a pregnant woman walks into a bar and orders a drink.

My son, adopted from Russia, has Fetal Alcohol syndrome (among other things) and I would not wish this on any future mother. Having one drink or having two drinks is just not worth the risk of birth defects, developmental delays, or even mental health issues.

Stuff like this always makes me feel like one half of my mouth is arguing with the other half. I hated everyone's eye being on my actions when pregnant, hated the long, laundry list of stupid, ill-proven things I was 'supposed' to avoid. But as a former server, we used to be expected to light patrons' cigarettes. I was very practiced at it- didn't even see the person, just the cigarette. It was kind of a fun challenge in a boring job, getting a light on the first flick, lighting without breaking stride, ect. Once though, I noticed a patron with a cigarette, and just before the flame met the cig, I noticed the patron was a hugely pregnant woman. My hand holding the lighter faltered just slightly, then whoosh- manager reached past me and lit that sucker. I was glad- both because I didn't have to light the cigarette, and because I didn't have to refuse.

Where do we draw the line? It isn't unsafe to drink in moderation. But there are some women who won't even eat seafood/sushi. It just seems to depend on the person. And when even doctors disagree, who can say what is safe and what isn't?

all I can say is...that sucks!
SHOULD bars refuse to serve pregnant women? NO!
CAN they?
Well...I guess they can.

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In my opinion they did the right thing.. should something have changed in the health of her baby she may try to sue them. It makes sense that they refused to serve her and every establishment has the right to refuse service. We have our rights but they have their's too. If it's that important to have a drink I say pack up your stuff and head off to the next bar who doesn't mind the possibility of a law suit. Just because we have the right to do something doesn't necessarily make it right.
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I just wanted to say that I'm thoroughly enjoying the discussion going on surrounding this. I appreciate all of your comments, insight, and various opinions.

I am very curious about the possible case against the restaurant or bar using the gender discrimination argument. It is something I suggested to a male friend who insisted that the restaurant did nothing wrong, but I didn't have any information to back it up. I'd love to know if there are any lawyers out there who can confirm whether or not that argument would hold up in court.

Amy

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Cannot refuse service based on gender is part of the anti-discrimination definitions.

You could make an argument that this is a type of gender discrimination as men have no such comparable condition that would cause a public house to deny them service. Pregnancy is an exclusively female condition.

There is no law prohibiting pregnant women from drinking. There is no criminalization of drinking, smoking, driving or eating bad food. (There have been cases of reckless behavior getting legally enhanced for risk to the fetus.)

There are medications that should not be combined with alcohol. If a restaurant sees me taking a pill at the table should they deny me alcohol because of the risk of an interaction between the wine and the medication? Are they protecting themselves if they do that? Or is a server in a restaurant making a medical decision on my behalf?

Lori, speech pathologist, writer, and business owner, blogs home-family-working-mom drama at In Pursuit of Martha Points. ( http://inpursuitofmarthapoints.com )

The problem here is that pregnant women have been deemed "community property." Have you ever noticed that everyone wants to rub a pregnant belly? That people tend to make special allowances for pregnant women( ex. we let them go to the front of the line for the bathroom, we let them eat first?). We as a society always take it upon ourselves to give unsolicited advise to pregnant women. We take them over while they are pregnant. All in the name of "helping." But this an example(in my opinion anyway) of taking it too far. While I personally didn't drink while pregnant, I don't feel like a glass of wine is hurting anyone. But I can understand why the server was concerned. Maybe she should have just ordered room sevice and called it a night.

I Blog at http://chroniclesofpookahsmom.com ( http://chroniclesofpookahsmom.com/ )

What? are we going to start demanding pee tests at the bar. Who is to decide who's pregnant?

I know a number of women who, for one reason or another (ovarian cysts, carries fat in her belly) looked pregnant for a while when they were not. It is not uncommon at all.

Sure, sometimes it's obvious. But where do we draw the line?

This is absolutely a civil liberties issue. I chose not to drink during my pregnancy and during the time when I though I might be pregnant - BUT my doctor also said that a drink here and there is not a problem. I could very easily had a glass of wine and not in any way injured the fetus.

I also know a woman who had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich ripped out of her hand while she was pregnant because the offender assumed that for some reason peanut butter and jelly sandwiches were bad for the baby.

This kind of policing of pregnant women is outrageous. People, including strangers, were always up in my business, touching my body when I did not want them to, barking demands at me as though they had a right to my body while there was a fetus in it. This has to stop.

Becoming pregnant should not strip a woman of her rights or autonomy.

CoffeeJitters.net ( http://coffeejitters.net/blog )

If bars can be sued for over-serving alcohol which can result in a person causing a car accident, can't they also be sued for over-serving alcohol which can result in the harm of a child? It's published in multiple places that it is unknown how much alcohol needs to be ingested to cause fetal harm. That being said, even providing 1 drink might be "over-serving". This establishment was looking out for its own best interest, legally.

( http://shesmommafied.com )

You pose some great questions here and I'm enjoying the discussion. I have not (yet?) been pregnant so I don't feel I have a strong opinion on this. But I think the issue here is our society's perception of women drinking wine during pregnancy. As you mentioned, in France, this would be a null issue. I don't think we're ever going to change our cultural norms. I guess if I ever get pregnant, I'm prepared to do so in a society that doesn't think it's ok to have a glass of wine in the later months. I will make my choices accordingly.

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I took a class called the history of alcohol and other drugs in American culture.

The herbs many midwives and doulas recommend during pregnancy are drugs. Over the counter medications doctors prescribe are drugs. Alcohol is a drug.

These drugs all have varying effects in varying doses...but they all have effects (in varying balances of positive and negative results) on the human body and the fetus.

How we view them in our society is largely a cultural matter and an inherited series of laws rather than something based in real scientific information.

I point this out for two reasons:

1. I've seen a number of people on Amy's facebook and blog post on CDG refer to a glass of wine in a nice restaurant as okay but other consumption of alcohol not. While I grant that wine tends to be consumer more slowly than, say, a shot of tequila, there is a class issue here that underlies much of the historical discussion of drug use. If consumed at the same rate, an equivalent amount of alcohol is an equivalent amount of alcohol.

and, more to the point of your response...

2. There are a number of recent, comprehensive studies showing no negative effect of occasional to moderate consumption...and even a few showing positive effects. If you simply do not believe you are causing a negative effect, and you've made an educated decision about that, then you are doing no harm in your mind...viewed in this way, alcohol is no better and no worse than many of the other recommended drugs (used in proper doses) during pregnancy and the beginning stages of labor and, in some cases, possibly better.

A "Public House" (a private establishment that serves the public, like a restaurant) cannot refuse service to a person based on their membership of a protected class.

I agree in this case that they have the legal right...but I don't think that necessarily ends the conversation.

And I also want everyone to understand that they do not have the right to refuse service to ANYone for ANY reason...

An establishment may not be *public* domain- none the less they are expected to still function within the confines of acceptable human rights.

If a restaurant told me to leave because I was nursing- I do not care that they are private establishment- I will raise a little hell.

They can't refuse to serve based on colour or gender or sexual preference- well they could try.. but I doubt they would get very far.

while i am not a drinker so it wasn't an issue one way or another during my pregnancies- I still do not think I would drink casually- maybe with an intent- the article mentioned how some caregivers will recommend a glass of wine to stop early contractions.

I do very much believe that a pregnant woman is still a woman who deserves to be able to make her own choices.

I will not always like the choices other's make, but it is not my place to decide what happens to another woman's body.

Arguing that a bar can refuse to serve a pregnant woman alcohol only because she is pregnant is not justifiable for a couple of reasons, the first being the clear parallel to racial discrimination. Those rights the private restaurant/bar has end when they infringe on the civil rights of the patron. In this case, that would be the rights of the mother over the rights of the fetus, which are nominal until it is born. The larger issue at stake here is whether or not a woman's body can be subject (in yet another situation) to government or outside control.

I think the most important thing to remember in issues like this is that each woman should have the right to decide these things about her own body. So while privately, like many of you have said, I abstain from alcohol while pregnant (I'm on my third month of doing so right now, actually), there is no chance that I would impose that on someone else, especially legally.

I will not comment on the particulars of this case. What bothers me is that somehow in American society today, we have a notion that we can legislate or make rules about virtually everything to make people do what is best for them or what we deem is best for them. I didn't drink during my pregnancies because I don't drink. My mother drank and smoke cigarettes throughout her 3 pregnancies - such was the prevailing thinking of the time. I could see placing a limit of one drink for a pregnant woman and perhaps even having a message on the menu about such a policy. However, refusing to serve one drink to me is crossing a line of people having personal freedom to make choices. In Boston, there's been an effort afoot to forbid smoking in public housing to save children because of high asthma rates. When such restrictions are passed, it is always easy to be righteous about them when they seem good for our health but it erodes our individual freedoms and choices and pretty soon we're going to have lost so many that it will be hard to turn back.
Hmmm.

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Good and plenty!

I can see it if it is the small town bar and you know the woman and her family. For example,you know the mother-to-be isn't having a celebratory drink but really needs to get treatment for alcohol abuse. (Just like I would expect the same for a man in the same situation)

On the other hand, I would bristle at even that on the basis of "just pregnant".

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No, bars and restaurants do not have the right to refuse service to anyone on any condition. This is a form of pregnancy discrimination. Women cannot be denied the right to jobs/apartments/etc based on their family status of condition of pregnancy. Neither can restaurants refuse to serve someone of color, or someone with a disability. It's flatly discrimination.

But this is an "I don't agree with what you do but I'll defend your right to do it" situation. I'm totally grossed out by pregnancy drinking/smoking/drugs. I don't get it at all. I also would NOT want to be the woman seen in a bar drinking alcohol big as a house. I know they told me I could drink while pregnant in France, but the European Union also now has some SERIOUS fetal alcohol syndrome problems and really intense campaigns to try and stop it.

I do not drink and smoke while pregnant, but as a proponent of the rights of women, I don't get to make those choices for other women no matter how distasteful I find them.

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Yes. And cigs. And harmful chemicals. And drugs.

That little baby is harmed by these things. If the parent is not aware of how to protect the child, our society holds that responsibility.

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While a restaurant can refuse service to any person, it is also illegal in Canada and the US to consider the rights of a fetus above the rights of the mother until it is born live and is its own entity. It's the same reason that drug addicts are not forced into rehab or onto methadone when they become pregnant or that women who smoke aren't forced to quit that, or that diabetics women with poor control of their blood sugars aren't forcefully admitted to hospital to have their condition managed properly - though all of the above groups are certainly supported to make good decisions. By law, a pregnant woman deserves no additional moral consideration than you or I, and can't be forced to act a certain way simply because she's pregnant.

From a human perspective, of course, that doesn't always exactly hold up. If the woman proceeded to get drunk and sloppy, I would support the waitress' right to express discomfort with the situation and refuse to facilitate it on a level of *personal comfort*. But by the way she handled the situation she implicated not only herself but the whole establishment she works for. And especially with no research definitively showing that a single alcoholic drink is harmful to a fetus, nobody would really have a leg to stand on if the woman decided to pursue a lawsuit.

I didn't drink while pregnant though I really, really craved a glass of wine here and there. My pregnancy complications made me want to avoid other potential issues. Which is also why I gave up coffee.

COFFEE.

That said, if we start refusing pregnant women in the manner stated in this post, then the barrista who asked me if I was "allowed" to have a small coffee when I was 38 weeks pregnant could have refused me service. I was desperate at that point as I hadn't been sleeping and needed something to make it through that particular day. It was probably my third cup of coffee the whole pregnancy. And I almost came across the counter at her. I got my coffee.

Contributing Editor Jenna Hatfield (@FireMom ( http://twitter.com/FireMom )) blogs at Stop, Drop and Blog ( http://stopdropandblog.com ) and The Chronicles of Munchkin Land ( http://thechroniclesofmunchkinland.com ). She is a freelance writer and newspaper photographer.

If the same lady walked in to the same restaurant whilst she was not visibly pregnant I’m certain she would have been served the alcoholic drink of her choice. Once the child is born and if the mother walks in to the same restaurant and orders the same drink for herself and her infant I’m sure the mother would be denied permitting the infant alcohol inside that premises. So this incident is about the child and not the mother or her rights. Please don’t support any would be mother who forgets that there is another human being inside her and that human being too has rights and is dependant on the mother to protect those rights of the unborn.

They have the right to refuse service to anyone. Like it or not there a sign in every establishment telling everyone so.

Whether or not it is ok, it is their right and protected as such by law.

All laws are moralistic and judgemental at some point. It is for the "greater good" of society overall that laws are based on.

But forcing places to serve alcohol to pregnant women if they request it, is not the answer either.

This is a perfect example of balancing individual rights. One person's right to drink is not more important or less important than one person's right refuse service to that person. There are plenty of studies showing BOTH pros and cons of drinking while pregnant.

Elizabeth

@texasebeth ( http://twitter.com/texasebeth )  and My Life, such as it is.... ( http://texasebeth.blogspot.com )

I agree that it is their right, but it seems like that can open up a can of worms.

Can a restaurant refuse to serve an obese person a cheeseburger? I know the answer is yes, but is that OK?

Amy

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I don't think that this issue is as much about not serving alcohol to a pregnant woman as much as it has to do with every business having a right to serve/not serve whom they wish. Like 7-Eleven wants you to have a shirt and shoes on when you come in, some restaurants won't accept patrons that aren't in black-tie attire, and there are places where you're just not allowed to smoke (i.e. some diners, hotels, etc.) But whether an individual agrees with these rules or not, there are certain standards that each organization chooses to hold themselves to, and that's their right. If we don't like it we have the option to go somewhere else.

A restaurant or bar is considered private property. As such the oweners have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.

Whether or not you agree to their reasoning is besides the point, as always you have the right to refuse to patronize the establishment.

Elizabeth

@texasebeth ( http://twitter.com/texasebeth )  and My Life, such as it is.... ( http://texasebeth.blogspot.com )