"They're not talking about me . . . right?"

"whatsername, in what ways does Superbad reflect “real life” well? In my high school, the girls were not all exponentially better looking that every boy."

That assertion can be leveled at every movie, pretty much ever. I'm pretty sure almost, if not everyone, who watches movies realizes that no, not everyone is really THAT good looking in the real world. That said, I didn't find these girls to be particularly more attractive than the girls I went to school with, nor did I find Evan or Seth or McLovin' to be more unattractive than the boys.

"Also, the girls were not at all eager to hook up with socially retarded boys who could barely dress themselves."

Since virtually all high school boys are, or were at some point exactly that, and the girls I knew did in fact hook up with them anyway, I'm going to have to disagree. This movie was about a certain subset of that high school, and only enough to fill one house party. That means most of the students weren't there, presumably off doing something else with their time. I don't think we should forget that.

"However, that was clearly no the intent of the people who created this movie"

It's not clear to me at all. In fact I totally disagree, I think Apatow and Rogen's comedies have thus far had way too much social commentary for this to be as you say.

"Most of the discussion of Superbad in the mainstream media and in the blogosphere has been fueled by the movie’s admirers, stating the humor and “genius” of its creators."

I've had these discussions outside of the feminist blogosphere. And the "genius" is rooted in it's reflection of reality.

"Additionally, Superbad is not a movie about “getting drunk so you can get sex easier.” It is a movie about getting someone else drunk, in hopes that you two will engage in sexual intercourse that your partner will later regret. That is the goal that Seth states in the beginning of the movie.

Furthermore, Superbad was not about Seth and Evan using alcohol to overcome their own socially constructed inhibitions. This movie was not focused on Jules and Becca choosing to drink to overcome their socially constructed inhibitions. This movie was about getting girls drunk in order to have sex with them."

Yes, but no. Seth's statement comes out of the patriarchal socially conditioned expectation that girls will not admit that want to have sex unless they are intoxicated. As well as the fact that he is not exactly a "catch" by the same standards, thus his chances are slim to pull a girl like Becca unless she is "wearing beer goggles." As a result he figures his only chance to get sexual experience is through this method. Additionally, if it was only about getting the GIRL drunk neither Seth nor Evan would begin promptly drinking as well once they got to the party. Obviously alcohol was a part of the picture for them in their own minds as well. Most likely (this is my own extrapolating from how I thought as a teenager) to facilitate an "omg I was drunk" brush off should either party decide later that sexual activity was a mistake. True that this movie was not about the girl's perspectives, I would be interested in a movie that was.

"What I am saying is that it was irresponsible for Superbad to include no substantial discussion of why Seth and Evan’s behavior was wrong. I don’t care if their behavior was realistic; it was wrong. And yet, they still ended up with the two individuals they had planned to intoxicate? What was that about?"

That substantial discussion is happening now, and was happening between people as they walked out of the movie. My husband and myself discussed things about growing up and "being there" etc. As for them ending up with the girls, the point there was "dude, these things don't end up the way you planned and it doesn't take getting chicks drunk to get a girlfriend, just fucking talk to them." An ending I appreciated.

As for what made both movies appealing. The realism. Every Apatow movie I have seen, I absolutely think are prime examples of SATIRE. And I love the comedic reflection of life. The obvious (to me) social commentary and conclusions. I watched both movies (and 40 YR Old Virgin) and saw points Apatow was making with the way he presented certain things, I saw conclusions in those presentations, because they were conclusions I'd come to through living through similar situations, or seeing friends live through similar situations. It was a very intuitive understanding, which I have tried to describe here, but still can't fully. IF you are interested in my thoughts on Knocked Up I encourage you to read my two reviews of it on my blog.
http://jadedhippy.blogspot.com/2007/12/knocked-up-...
http://jadedhippy.blogspot.com/2007/10/knocked-up....

~whatsername~

I welcome your comments and rebuttals!

I don’t have a problem with people who like Superbad. But I am disturbed when people actively defend a product like Superbad that normalizes and encourages misogyny, especially when its defenders are direct victims of misogyny themselves.

I do not know what the takeaway message of the movie was for every person who has seen the movie. I do know that most of the takeaway messages that I have heard and read have included extreme praise for the movie, with no mention of the movie’s faults.

I am not saying that the writers’ reflection of high school was not true for them. I am saying that the movie has positioned itself as an accurate portrayal of high school in general because its stars are white heterosexual males, and our media and society unfailingly and falsely portrays white heterosexual males as accurate examples of life for every American.

I’m glad that you hear my frustration. I hear yours, too. I don’t think you are an idiot. I don’t think people who like Superbad are idiots. I don’t think my friends—the people whom this article is about, and who are feminists—are idiots. However, I do think that more people should think about how much hatred of women is acceptable in the movies they choose to watch and defend.

I do know where my anger comes from, and I proudly own it. My anger comes from my frustration with our media. My anger comes from my disappointment that society has taught women, and men, to accept various levels of misogyny in the products that they consume. My anger comes from my sadness that many people accept that our media grossly misrepresents them, instead of questioning why they are grossly misrepresented.

I would also like to note that before 2007, I had very little to say about the Apatow posse. I liked Judd’s and Seth’s contributions to Freaks and Geeks and Undeclared. I liked Michael Cera in Arrested Development, and Jonah Hill in Campus Ladies. I . . . didn’t know who Evan Goldberg was before this. I had no problem with any of them until their projects began incorporating the fear and loathing of women or anything female, including vaginas.

I do appreciate your comments, even though we don't agree about everything. :)

your tacit assertion that because some of us like THIS movie, we automatically support, without questioning, the "white heterosexual male patriarchy" that is mainstream media is REALLY off base. it is verging on an ad hominem attack and is not constructive. it is safe to say that you do not know either of us well enough to make such sweeping statements about us.

i'm not sure that either one of us can claim to know what the take away message for everyone was. i would assume that it was different for each person who saw it. by the same token, you cant declare the movie a "flawed reflection" of high school as it was for the writers. You are not them, it could be spot on for them. I know that some of the males I saw it with, (NOT all white and not all heterosexual) reported that it was spot on for them, and others said, "yeah, i knew guys like that, they were idiot then and they're idiots now."

i hear your frustration, for sure. and you are certainly right that mainstream media is, in general, pretty ridiculous and monolithic. no doubt about it.

but you also have to remember that our "take" on things is as diverse as our desires, our skin colors, our sense of humor and everything else. the fact that i know an equal number of people who loved and hated this movie is proof positive that even what appears to be a monolithic "media" produces divergent reactions and actions.

personally, i have yet to see a movie or tv show that reflects me, as i see me. but i see isolated elements of myself in lots of places. and bits of others in me.....

okay, we are not going to agree on this movie. (nor is there any need to.) but i don't think it is fair to indict individuals based on the fact that they like a movie that you really didn't like. given how few movies i like, i'd have to write off pretty much everyone i know (including everyone who loved Cloverfield this weekend. talk about a crap movie. or Crash, god, that was AWFUL, or Babel, puhleeez......) I would encourage you to look at the things that anger you, and find constructive ways to work for change in that arena. Not to assume idiocy in people who don't agree with you.

Everything is a starting point for a discussion. Everything.
___________
Alyssa Royse
JUST CAUSE
make some good news!
www.JustCauseIt.com ( http://www.JustCauseIt.com )

Hooray for comments! I’m so excited.

whatsername, in what ways does Superbad reflect “real life” well? In my high school, the girls were not all exponentially better looking that every boy. Also, the girls were not at all eager to hook up with socially retarded boys who could barely dress themselves.

This movie does provide an opportunity for discussion. However, that was clearly no the intent of the people who created this movie, nor has it been the result, outside of feminist-oriented blogs. Most of the discussion of Superbad in the mainstream media and in the blogosphere has been fueled by the movie’s admirers, stating the humor and “genius” of its creators. There has been little, if any, constructive criticism about the film’s premise or execution.

Additionally, Superbad is not a movie about “getting drunk so you can get sex easier.” It is a movie about getting someone else drunk, in hopes that you two will engage in sexual intercourse that your partner will later regret. That is the goal that Seth states in the beginning of the movie.

Furthermore, Superbad was not about Seth and Evan using alcohol to overcome their own socially constructed inhibitions. This movie was not focused on Jules and Becca choosing to drink to overcome their socially constructed inhibitions. This movie was about getting girls drunk in order to have sex with them.

I do understand the lubricating effects of alcohol. I’m not denying that alcohol-fueled sexual encounters are common. In fact, most sexual assaults occur when the attacker and/or the victim is under the influence of alcohol. What I am saying is that it was irresponsible for Superbad to include no substantial discussion of why Seth and Evan’s behavior was wrong. I don’t care if their behavior was realistic; it was wrong. And yet, they still ended up with the two individuals they had planned to intoxicate? What was that about?

What made Superbad and Knocked Up so appealing to you, whatsername?

#

Alyssa, I agree that my indictment is massive. It is also valid. I also agree that the movie provides an opportunity for discussion.

However, Seth didn’t change all that much by the end of the movie. He never apologized for his hatred of Becca or of women in general. He never apologized for tying to get Jules drunk. He mostly apologized to Evan for being jealous of Fogell because he couldn’t get into Darmouth, too.

Superbad was a flawed reflection of high school as it was for the two white heterosexual males who wrote the script. I agree that many boys, and men, do look at girls and women simply as potential sexual partners. However, that does not entitle every American film to treat female actors as objects of prey, no better than a deer caught in the scope of a hunter’s rifle. Look up the phrase “male gaze”-- if you haven’t already—read a few articles and books on the subject, and you will likely understand what I mean.

“Do you really expect all movies to reflect you?”

That is the comment hurled at me the most when I bring up the fact that the white heterosexual male patriarchy dominates every aspect of American society and cluture. It is especially unnerving when the comment comes from someone who isn’t a white heterosexual male, and should probably be questioning the patriarchy instead of eagerly supporting it.

I don’t expect all movies to reflect me. I don’t know of any movie or medium that accurately reflects my existence as a young, educated, humorous, sensitive black American woman. That said, I don’t understand why almost every product of the corporately-owned mainstream media—including movies, television shows, commercial, billboards, newspapers, books, magazines—why must almost every product be created by, about, and for white heterosexual males?

I understand that Superbad was Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg’s story, not my story. My story is called Steve the Penguin ( http://www.mrjmedia.com/shop.html ); you can find it on my website ( http://stevethepenguin.blogspot.com/ ) or on Amazon.com ( http://www.amazon.com/Steve-Penguin-Mahlena-Rae-Jo... ). :)

I agree that American Pie was contrived. Most American movies are. I watched the movie primarily because Thomas Ian Nicholas was starring in it. The movie also spawned the TV show Off Centre, which introduced me to John Cho, Jason George, and Sean Maguire. Yum!

Superbad did not teach kids “not to be drunken stupid idiots.” It did the exact opposite. Seth and Evan were both drunk and stupid, and they still ended up with Jules and Becca. The two doofus police officers played by Bill Hader and Seth Rogen were purposefully written and acted as the funniest characters in the movie. Their entire storyline involved ingesting as much alcohol as possible, working and driving drunk, hitting then abusing their authority over a pedestrian, and finally setting fire to their own police car. What part of their Jackass-inspired antics said to kids, Don’t be “drunken stupid idiots”: the drunk driving, the destruction of state property, or the vehicular assault?

I have never yelled and shame anyone about their sexuality, and I am not doing so now. I agree that we should have understanding and equality. But a movie with such a narrow, one-sided, misogynistic view of teenage sexuality does not provide a level starting point for discussing immature sexual behavior. The movie mainly provides an example of immature sexual behavior in white heterosexual adolescent males. It reminds me of an episode of Daria, in which the following conversations take place during art class:

Ms. Defoe the Art Teacher (walks up to Brittany): Tell us about your poster, Brittany.

Brittany: I call it, "Don't Drink or Take Drugs." And the message is, don't drink or take drugs!

Ms. Defoe: But how do we get that message? All I see is the alcohol and the drugs with no negative imagery to symbolize their dangers.

Brittany (reaches into bag, takes out lipstick, crosses out the alcohol and drugs on the poster): There!

Ms. Defoe: Well, Brittany, that's um, let's talk after class.

~

The next day in Mr. O’Neill’s office . . .

Brittany - (walks in with her new poster) Excuse me, Mr. O'Neill?

Mr. O'Neill - Uh, yes?

Brittany - I want to enter my new poster in the contest.

Mr. O'Neill - Oh, that's really nice. What an affirmative message. Togetherness?

Brittany - Um, the message is, "Don't Join a Gang."

Mr. O'Neill - Oh.

Brittany - That's also the title.

Mr. O'Neill - Um, Brittany, I see the gang but I don't see anything representing "don't."

Brittany - Oh yeah. Where’s my lipstick? (leaves)

If only Judd Apatow had a tube of lipstick.

Thanks for your comments!

Wow. That's quite a massive indictment of a movie. You are holding it responsible for an awful lot of stuff, rather than looking at the larger issues that it raises (with creepy accuracy) and using them as a starting point for discussion. (I might add, with a certain irony, that you are holding characters responsible for their childhood behavior without looking at it through your adult lens and realizing that they changed. The penis drawing and Becca being a prime example.... he realized that his reaction to her had been about shame and fear and by the end of the movie realized she was cool.)

But stepping back from that, Superbad was a super accurate reflection of high school as it is for a lot of people. Most boys that age - a LOT of them - do simply look at girls as potential sexual partners. They are pretty much on a "vag tastic voyage" of their own. (In my experience as a teacher, even the guys who hide it well are pretty much trying to figure out how their bodies work and what to do with it, and with whom.)

As far as reflecting YOU, do you really expect all movies to reflect you? This wasn't your story. This was their story.

And it is worth noting that neither one of them "got any" in the movie. One of the girls was sober and made it very clear that she found drunk people to be stupid and was not ever willing to have sex with someone who was drunk. The other potential coupling was stopped when the guy realizes that drunk sex wasn't worth having because it was inherently meaningless and he liked the girl, didn't want to waste it.

Further, they realized that one of the reasons that they were both acting so stupid was because they really loved each other and were afraid to be separated the following year in college. that was one of the most touching scenes I've seen in a Hollywood movie in ages.

I gave them so many points for NOT sanitizing the movie and making it palatable. As much as I enjoyed American Pie, it was so sanitized and contrived compared to Superbad which was, as objectionable as you may have found it, much more honest.

Ironically, it was Knocked Up that had me reeling. All the women in that movie did was whine, complain, try to change everyone around them to be "good enough," and basically beat the spirit out of the men in their lives. That offended me far more than having to look at teen age boys for the uncontrollably horny, hapless, clueless creatures they are in the blinded-by-hormones stage of development. And there was a lot to learn from that movie.

Not the least of which is teaching kids not to be drunken stupid idiots.... And i agree with WhatsHerName, we yell and shame people so much about their sexuality, while at the same time expecting everyone to be sexually accomplished, that we bring a lot of this on ourselves. Discussion is a much better way to achieve understanding and equality, and this movie is a great starting point for any discussion of immature sexual behavior (which extends far into adulthood, for many men AND women.)

Oh, and yeah, i laughed my ass off.
___________
Alyssa Royse
JUST CAUSE
make some good news!
www.JustCauseIt.com ( http://www.JustCauseIt.com )

A movie that reflects real life this well is an opportunity to talk about the attitudes and issues you find distasteful. It's a chance to get perspective on what we're taught when we're young. And seriously, getting drunk so you can get sex easier is unbelievably, incredibly, common. And for most people it has nothing to do with rape. It has to do with over coming your inhibitions (socially constructed ones, I might add) and making you more comfortable with yourself as a sexual being (again, socially constructed blocks here, especially for girls). Ridiculing a director and writers for managing to reflect real life as "lazy writing" is utterly missing the opportunity to talk about the problematic situations, and attitudes, that can be reinforced by all this. You talk about them not having perspective, but presenting this out in the open, with what discussions even those two boys had about respecting women vs not, that is giving US the chance to take perspective from the film. While I didn't enjoy this film as much as Knocked Up, I just feel like you're selling it incredibly short.

~whatsername~