Is Tithing a Pyramid Scheme?

Giving to the Lord is 'not up for discussion'?
Wow...I thought we should all look at what God's word really says in the New Covenant...and let His Spirit will lead us into all truth.

Tithing is part of the Law....Jesus said so in Mat 23:23...and it was something the pharisees who were under the Law should do. We are not under the Law..(read Romans and Galatians)...and Acts 15 makes it clear we are NOT required to tithe as non-Jewish believers.

Tithing was ONLY ever food....who authorised you to change it to money (Note the pharisees tithed herbs...and Malchi says 'foo' in my house ...not money.

The Law says tithing was only ever to be given to the Levites under an eternal covenant...(Numbers 18:23 and Heb 7:5)...who authorised you to change this?

Jesus says if you change 'one jot or tittle of the Law you will be LEAST in the kingdom of God

We don't pay back God with our money....we FREELY receive our salvation by faith (and not works)

The scriptures say that we must FIRST provide for our families (1 Tim 5:4)...and those who don't are worse than unbelievers....and you say 'tithe' first....Could this be because you have your 'snout in the trough'?

Chris

Giving 10% to the lord is not a question that is up for discussion.  You MUST do it without question.   It is your duty and your obligation.  If your finances are stretched so thin that you think that you cannot do it then change your lifestyle.  If your mortgage is too big then sell your home.  Downsize your life significantly.  Live small, think small, be small.  By doing this you will be able to give more and be pleasing to God.  Much is expected from those who call themselves Christians.  Once you are born again and become his your life as you once knew it is over.  You are not your own, you have been bought with a price. The blood of Christ has purchased you and now you must pay it back.  Narrow is the gate that leads to eternal life.  We walk on the razors edge with little room for error. 

Thanks so much including me in your research on tithing. I appreciate the link up to So Sioux Me.

The relationship I have with tithing and giving generously is multi-faceted. For one thing tithing, and our other financial habits, are about personal financial responsibility. We tithe and we SAVE and we live within our means, etc. Tithing is one part of the whole. It's not like a lottery. It's more like a cause and effect relationship where if you do the right, and sometimes hard things, like saving and giving, it will pay off. If you never give or save, it's an indicator of how important the spending is.

Also, I give generously because God gives generously to me. While I did live in that awful little house that made me sick and it was extremely hard, we paid off a great deal of debt. It was woth the sacrifice.

Giving reminds us to be greatful for what we have. That little house I was desperately trying to be grateful, for was 10 times better than most people in the world live it. I can always afford to be generous. In spirit, with time and with money.

Giving, according to The Law Of Attraction, Bill Clinton, The Dahli Lama, The Bible, nearly every philosopher in the world and Oprah, is a key-component to happiness. I want to be happy and I'm willing to give to acheive that goal. Sometimes I give to the church, but sometimes I give to someone who needs to pay their light bill as I wrote about here http://traceesioux.blogspot.com/2007/03/generous-g...

Thanks for the mention,
Tracee Sioux
So Sioux Me
www.sosiouxme.com ( http://www.sosiouxme.com )

This is a complex issue. No one would quarrel that we all ought to be giving away what we can to those who need our help. And the church, historically at least, has been a conduit for that -- give to the church and the church gives that onwards, both locally, nationally and globally. The church is also a voluntary organization. Its only income is contributory. So, it follows that if you are getting a lot of meaning from your church experience you will do what you can, with what resources that you have, to make your fair share of supporting the organization. Otherwise pastors do not usually get paid, heat does not switch on, lawns do not get mowed, etc. The emphasis in tithing was that if you value giving, you will do it generously and "off the top" of all other expenses. I might add that the original intent was not "give to get".

If someone wants to tithe-- fine and dandy. I don't see how it is any sort of pyramid. Or, someone might want to give 10% of what they earn to other charities -- fine on that too. The point is, to give -- to share abundance.

The important factor to me is how to encourage reasonable judgment among people to help them avoid con artists -- places where their money is just going to buy the latest blingbling for a TV evangelist-hoodlum.

~~ Contributing Editor, Mata H. also blogs relentlessly at Time's Fool ( http://timesfool.blogspot.com )

Jess: Thanks for elaborating. Even though our experiences are probably not the norm, I've found a number of people like us making me think it happens... maybe not in pyramid scheme proportions but widely enough that it gives tithing a bad rap.

Nina Smith
Queercents ( http://www.queercents.com )
We're here, we're queer, and we're not going shopping without coupons.

Nina:

This inspired me to write a blog post on this issue ( http://takeflightwithinconsideratewings.wordpress.... ). The problems with the church itself were more than just their beliefs on tithing and giving, but on how they spent money as a whole. At Christmas-time, they had a tradition of people giving money to a fund as a "present" to the pastors. (Bear in mind that this church's hierarchy, as it may be called, was vastly different than most other churches. The pastors are the entire head of the church, even over the church board, and have final say in decisions. The pastors made up 2/5 of the church board itself as well. I say this for a reason, as you'll soon understand.) The year that we started going there, they decided to do away with the voluntary "presents" and stated that they would just vote themselves a bonus through the church board, which they then did. They told people to not give any money for their "present" for this reason (sending out a letter about it), but that people still could if they wanted to and they would distribute it in addition to the bonus money.

I just had major issues--as a employee as well as just as an attendee--with how I saw money was being spent at this church. I do not see why the pastor should use money that the church members gave in good faith to be used for running the church, their many ministries, the pastors' salaries (five pastors) as well as the other office staff--such as the two senior pastors' (a married couple) personal assistant, the bookkeeper, the office manager, the part-time ministry leaders, etc.--and for church upkeep, etc. We had just had the building campaign (for a completely new church in a different part of town with all the latest sound and Apple computer equipment , a coffee bar, etc.), and they were talking about how much money they were giving for the campaign ("until you feel it"), yet they use the church money to give to themselves as an added "bonus" at the end of the year? What--the amount the congregation gave to them as a "present" every year wasn't enough? Or they decided to take it from the tithes AND get a part of the congregation's giving, too? The fact that they expected the "present" was bad enough but to tell people "forget the present, we'll give ourselves one" was even worse.

That was about the time we decided to quit attending so many events, etc. I couldn't give any longer to a place that, first of all, used money so badly administratively and, secondly, used the money to give themselves extra money at the end of the year. I mean, what's the point of hearing a pastor say, "Give until you feel it" as far as tithing and giving, but they themselves apparently "give until they feel it" and then give themselves a bonus from the offering plate to make up for it?

Again, I know not all churches are like this and we are truly trying to find one that we like up here. I'm upset because this church is quite large and could be doing such great things in this community, but their money handling and attitude is quite upsetting. I'm also upset that you also dealt with this, because it shouldn't be a prevalent thing in churches. I don't feel giving is a pyramid scheme, but I do feel that some churches put more emphasis on what you give than how you live--or even what you believe.

I apologize for my overly long comments. I blogged about it because I realized I had more to say, but you reminded me of this fact that really bothered me: Some members were going through Financial Peace U just to find more money to give to the building campaign, and some members were just cutting out all sorts of things from their lives, giving up some of their savings, finding ways to give and give and give, and some members had very little but gave more than they really had just to feel as though they were contributing to the "until it hurts" idea. All this time, the pastors are exhorting us to do this, knowing that they will, in a few months' time, give themselves a huge bonus from the money that these people are saving to extend to the church body in an act of good faith.

That really bothered me to realize that tons of people were feeling the "hurt" of giving more and more, especially at Christmas-time, and the pastors were just giving themselves a tidy bonus to make up for it. Or, that's how it looked to some of us, anyway.

___
jess
Bumblebee Dreams ( http://takeflightwithinconsideratewings.wordpress.... ).

Heather: I appreciate the follow up to your post and for sharing your candid thoughts. I would never discount your personal experience, but it's hard for me to believe that it's the result of "tithing" and not just circumstance. Of course, I'm just voicing my opinion here. My doubts are based on watching my parents tithe for decades and their outcome being completely different.

When something good happens, people seem quick to give God the credit, but then what's the explanation when bad things happen to good people? Any reason you give (and I've heard a lot of them growing up in the church) never quite made sense to me. I personally believe that life is a series of choices with consequences and these are based on little more than circumstance. Again, my personal view offered up in the spirit of friendly debate.

Alyssa: I agree that giving back to the community is important - whether that community is your church or some other charity. It's personal preference. I think giving directly to the Music Program instead of the church is a clever solution for your beliefs.

Nina Smith
Queercents ( http://www.queercents.com )
We're here, we're queer, and we're not going shopping without coupons.

As a somewhat lapsed Catholic, I had a brief stint of attending church fairly regularly and giving regularly (I believe that we should have some connection to community and church can be an important part of that) and I was tired of being preached to about the "culture of life." I'm tired of giving to a church that tells me I'm wrong or immoral because I want to take care of women's health. So I stopped. We give to the music program now, but not the church and we spend a certain percentage of our income each month giving to different charities we like instead of tithing to a church. For me it's more like Suze Orman explains it which is something like if you start your month by giving away even just a small percentage of your income you remember how much you truly do have and don't feel so pressed for money. Also, I think it's important to give back to the community.

On the debt note, my friend and I had a discussion about should you give when you have credit card debt, and my answer is yes because it makes me feel less like I have that debt and makes it easier to make sacrifices to pay down that debt I might otherwise not make because I was using the money that would otherwise go to charity (I'm not sure if that made sense).

Healthy Manifest ( http://healthymanifest.blogspot.com )

The post that you quoted me on was from May...nearly 7 months ago now.

Am I still feeling convicted?

Only when I forget my checkbook Sunday morning.

You see, over the past 7 months, I've not needed anything. My air conditioner broke, my roof started leaking and they were all taken care of with minimal to no cost. The reason? My faith and my tithing.

I have so much more than others have, so why can't I make it work to give the church 10% of my earnings? It's not been an issue, because I know that I will be blessed beyond measure. And I have been.

There have been months where I looked at my incoming money and the bills and I'm not sure how they all got paid, but they did. I've not worried about money for 7 months, because I know that I don't have to.

In addition to it being the only time that God asks us to test him (Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. — Malachi 3:10 (NIV)) why would I not want to give back to the Church that is a vital part of my life?

Both of my children have accepted Jesus through this church... and I did too for that matter. They helped me change my life and to now live to glorify the Lord in my thoughts, words, and deeds. When I need something, they are there. They aren't just there to take my money. My pastor doesn't preach every Sunday about giving, he's not in my face about it, but then again, I don't attend a country club church. I attend a church where the sole purpose is to reach out to non-believers and become radically committed to Christ. and that is what we are doing, myself included.

Whereas there were once fears that I couldn't afford to tithe, the fear is now that I can't afford not to. And when I place my check in the offering plate every Sunday morning, I say a little prayer, the He bless that money and use it for His glory and that my worries about money will be taken away. And they always are.

Yes, there are churches that want to have the latest and greatest in everything. Our church is no different in that aspect. Where we are different is that we have a body of members that are willing to give not only their money but their time and talents as well. I can't take this money with me when I go to meet the Lord. And when I meet Him, He won't care what kind of car I drove, or what size my TV was, nor will he care that I had 300 channels at my disposal and still had nothing to watch. What he will care about is how faithful I was to Him.

And in the end? That's all that matters.

Karoli: I didn't mean to offend with the title of my post. Perhaps I fumbled in my attempt to be sensational, but I thought pyramid scheme was an accurate descriptive when attached to the Prosperity preachers. Regardless, I respect your views and appreciate you sharing your personal experience.

Mir: I like how you explained your expectations with getting "back" and for me personally, this philosophy makes a lot of sense.

Jess: I had a similar experience in my youth. My family attended a large pentecostal church (think Jim Bakker meets Paula White -- a precursor to those mega-churches) and so much emphasis was on giving to the building fund. I was in high school and for four years they were raising money for our new sanctuary. I saw my parents give when they should have used it to pay down their credit card debt... it all seemed so wrong in my opinion.

Kaddi: Well-said! Churches are only as good as the people who lead and attend so it makes sense that some of our glorious traits as humans become part of this system.

Nina Smith
Queercents ( http://www.queercents.com )
We're here, we're queer, and we're not going shopping without coupons.

Thankfully, not all churches are as aggressive and mixed up as the story above. That is a sad. But I do know that the church I've gone to since I was a child, and my Grandmother has attended for probably more than 50 years, has had its less graceful moments. Churches, like any other organization, are ran by people, and can get caught up in politics and financial struggles.

One of my friends attends a church, and there are tickets you buy to attend certain services. I believe some are free services too, and I doubt they would deny someone who had spiritual need. I think this might appeal to certain people.

Before my main comment, let me preface this by saying that not all churches are like this. I have attended and been a member of churches that were nothing like this, which is probably why it took me so much by surprise that this happened--and so openly, too!

When we moved up here after we married, we attended a church that made it very clear from the beginning that they expected every person to give at least 10% of their "blessings" (income, gifts, tax returns, etc.) and that they were keeping track of all members based on what they gave. If you suddenly gave less, they were immediately going to be calling and finding out what was wrong with your "spiritual life" and why you had fallen away. (Forget that some people lose an income or have larger expenses due to health problems or anything like that.) If you suddenly quit giving, they would notice and again contact you to find out why you stopped giving/coming.

My husband and I prefer to give anonymously, as I was always taught growing up that NO ONE should know how much one gives, not even church officials. This church started a giving campaign (above and beyond your tithing, which went directly to the church coffers) for a new building. You were not to give your tithe to the building campaign, as your tithe was for the church and your "offering" was for the building campaign. They showed percentages of what you could give, etc. based on income by handing out and mailing fliers. Around this time, I began working at the church, still giving anonymously. At a "leader's meeting" (that I was required to attend, as I was employed there) I was told that we needed to be giving in a manner that could be tracked, as they wanted to make sure that all in the church's employ were giving faithfully. We were giving (anonymously) a large portion of our income at the time, but still refused to give with our name on the gift.

I finally decided the job was not for me (and gave three weeks' notice, which the senior pastor said was quite enough time, so I did leave the job on good terms), but we continued to attend the church for some time. We received mailings for a long time that showed we were giving nothing to the giving campaign (they kept track of your "contribution" that you had pledged to give weekly/monthly/yearly and sent out reports that detailed how closely you kept up with your promised amount) when in reality we were giving--again, anonymously.

To make this already too long story shorter, we eventually quit attending when no one ever spoke to us or even acknowledged us when we were at the church or church events. Even though I had worked there for several months, even the pastors (my direct supervisors) didn't even acknowledge me or my husband when we attended. We gradually attended fewer events and fewer services, until we stopped going at all. No one ever called us or questioned why this was, although when I worked there, they kept close track of when I attended and when I didn't. (I had to let them know if I visited my relatives out of state on a weekend and wouldn't be around for the service, even though my job was simply a weekday, part-time office position and had nothing to do with the church services on the weekends.)

I think it's pretty sad when a church makes it clear that they only want you for what money you will give them and that they keep track of every person who attends by what money they give--and only ask what's up when they give less or stop giving money. Since we gave anonymously, we never were questioned about why we left after over a year of attendance, my having worked there, and many months of attending events two or three times per week with my bosses/former bosses.

Again, we know that not all churches are like this and we are currently looking for a new one. I agree that giving should be voluntary. Whatever happened to "God loves a cheerful giver"? We aren't supposed to give grudgingly, and I can't imagine being tracked and valued only for how much money I give. It is a personal choice, and no one should feel obligated to give or devalued by their pastors and other church members if they don't choose to give loudly and with much show. I seem to remember a story in the Bible about that...

__
jess
Bumblebee Dreams ( http://takeflightwithinconsideratewings.wordpress.... )

I agree that the problems come when people start operating under "should"s. It is not the church's place to tell people what they SHOULD do. Ideally they will imbue the spirit of cheerful giving, but I, too, have a problem with stringent rules in this area.

I tithe because I can, and because it reminds me that I have enough. More than enough, really. Even when it might not feel that way. I tithe because it helps me in my spiritual journey. But not because someone told me to.

All I expect to get "back" out of tithing is the reminder that I'm part of a great big world, much of it worse off than I am, and that it's my duty as a member of the human race to donate charitably. This is how I choose to do it. I wouldn't presume to say it should be exactly like this for anyone else.

--
Mir from WCS
(BlogHer Mommy & Family contributing editor)

Personal: Woulda Coulda Shoulda ( http://wouldashoulda.com/ )

Having it all with less: Want Not ( http://wantnot.net/ )

No one should tithe if they're conflicted about it. It's also not a tit-for-tat thing. The thinking should not be "if I tithe, I'll be blessed".

It's also not a pyramid scheme. I'm a bit offended by the reference, frankly. I tithe because I trust God to be in control of my finances. I am not the richest, but my bills are paid, we have no credit card debt and our home will be paid off in the next five years. When I was in control I lost a house, declared bankruptcy, and ended up with barely enough for my son and I to get by. Now with one kid in college, another one returning home after a stint in the military and college, and a third about to go to high school, we're in much better financial shape than I ever believed possible. I can't point to anything I did differently or better. I don't think it was me.

But again, no one should tithe out of a sense of duty or obligation, nor should any church advocate that.

karoli (odd time signatures ( http://drumsnwhistles.com ))