When You Decide Your Child Can't Be Friends With Another Child

We have just faced something similar and I appreciate your viewpoint.

One, the kid was clearly a repeated behavior issue in your own house and two, your kids were seriously relieved when you banned the kid from the house. So I doubt that you are even coming close to that mean-spirited mom from your childhood. Don't feel guilty because I think it is quite clear that you were not having any influence there.

I try to walk a fine line. I don't want to set a precedent of intervention, because there will be times at school when I cannot weigh in. Unfortunately we have a situation with a couple of kids that involves exclusion or, worse, inclusion steeped in hurt feelings. I do not like these kids, I do not respect the decisions their parents make in encouraging the emotional yo-yo of neighborliness and unexpected cold shoulder. I have a "No more" on the tip of my tongue, but I am not ready to say it. Yet. And so we tread water.

In some ways I envy you your resolution.

I am glad I found this thread. I am a mom on the opposite side of the spectrum. I invited children over, thinking my daughter is picking up some friends. Over and over again these friends have proven to be inconsistent. The parents, apparently have no feeling whatsoever for my daughter. The few times she went over to some of these friend's homes, the parents said she behaved fine, but she was never invited again. So far, she is not invited, this summer none of her acquaintances or "friends" called, and on and on. I am so heartbroken I don't know what to do. If there is something wrong, I have no clue. I know I raised a wonderful, beautiful girl, and the world is not giving me a clue as to why she does not have anybody calling her or reciprocating.

I agree with what you did. I would have done so too. At one point in life, you have to admit that you can't save the world and you have to protect your own - which you did.

If my parents would have try to same a Randy kid, I am not sure how we would have react. No, I know. We would have been pissed. My parents had their hands full raising us while both of them worked full time and their free time belonged to US (I sound like a diva, right ? lol But that is the way that kids think).

On another note, I will say that I agree with you even more because when my daughter was in 4th grade, she had be-friend a few girls in her class that were from another religion. Well, I got really upset when the little girls told my girl they couldn't hang out with her anymore because... of me ! I was a single mother, therefore, I was BAD !!!! I didn't fit the American Dream picture they had in mind (and as if singlehood parenting was contagious, pfft)

It is then that I decided that I didn't want just any influence on my girl. That kind of influence ? Thinking that being a single mother, living in a small place and working hard to offer a nice life to my girl was bad ? I first don't have the energy to defend my life to my girl (the guilt of raising a kid alone was always present, no need for more) and to comfort her for some other parents bad-parenting and my girl certainly don't need it either.

I will decide who she sees, when she does and if you don't like it, bull for you.

Oh, by the way, if you think that it is so easy to help every stray dog, be my guest and do so. Don't judge other because they can't. I am being honest in saying that I don't have the energy to do it. But I do help those I can reach, if it is in my power.

I admire that you are big into volunteering.  I think the world would be a better and more compassionate place if everybody crept out from under their own rocks and worked in the lives of less fortunate people.  However, when discussing this particular post, I think it is a mistake to think that Loralee has somehow wronged "Randy" by choosing to isolate him from her family.  After three years of trying to show this child what a loving home can be like, he was still unaffected and continued to be a bad influence on her own children.  Perhaps the child needs some extracurricular activities to get him out of his house.  Perhaps he needs to be around a more tightly supervised group activity (such as scouts or a sport) where is is less likely to cause trouble.  I don't really know.

What I do know is that I am seeing people in this comments section accusing this woman of being unkind to the child because she had reached her limits and chose the well-being of her own children first.  I'm sorry, but to think that "Randy" was still going to benefit after three years of no progress is delusional.  Not all children can be helped like that.  No matter how many years are put into them. 

And as for my use of the word "fantasy" in describing some people's desire to save a lost child; I stand by it.  Paying school taxes and getting vaccinations are social responsibilites, but are much more far removed than actually taking the child into your inner sanctum and allowing them to be a part of your intimate family life.  I think some people watch too much TV and see these after school specials of one strong adult helping a troubled child become a full and happy person.  As with all fantasties, sometimes it does cross over into real life, and I really find that beautiful.  I love that some lucky kids are able to benefit from that.  But when Loralee chose to basically give up on "Randy", I think that she understood that the fantasy in her case just wasn't going to work out.  Her children were able to see her try to help "Randy."  They were able to see that she perhaps saw a glimmer of hope in him and that he was worth a try.  That was good for them to see.  But it was also good for them to see that she knew when it was best to put the effort to an end. 

We can't expect other people or ourselves to be the saviors of lost children.  It's unfortunate and it's sad.  Sometimes there just is no way for one person to be the catalyst.  Speaking as a former lost child, in the end, it will be up to "Randy" to decide when the help will work. 

I, too, had to ban my child from a friends home when I found there was absolutely no supervision and the child was surfing the web for porn.  At age 9.  My daughter was so relieved - and she learned a very important lesson: I will always have her back.  That's key, especially as she is now 11 and heading into teen years.  We all feel guilty when we see a child that desperately needs parenting, but it's not our job to parent other children, and I would never want my daughter to believe that I would put another child's mental health above hers.  My daughter is kind to the little girl, but no longer friends.  They are "school friends" only.

"It shows a lot concerning some women's inner desires to be mothers of the world and to have that fantasy of enlightening a problem child come true. "

I wouldn't necessarily call it a "fantasy". I'd say it's more of a calling. Or, rather, the obligation to other humans that comes with being part of a society. And not only as mothers, but as human beings.

Sometimes we do put our own needs and wants secondary and risk ourselves and our families to do something for the greater good, and sometimes that's the right thing to do, even though it's the hard thing to do.

For example, with the call for everyone to participate in healthcare and to purchase health insurance - even if it is not financially easy or a personal choice for some people - we know that it will benefit more people while we are making a personal sacrifice that may not immediately benefit our own family to the same extent. and may even cause a hardship for the time being.

The same with paying taxes for public education: some people are living on the edge financially or don't have children of their own, but still pay for other people's children to attend school because we belieive that there is a greater good for which it is worth putting our own financial needs second. Some people even go so far as to keep their kids in difficult public schools because they know that pulling  their direct influence out of the school will only make it worse for those kids who don't have the option to leave.

Same with vaccinating children: even though one in a million children may die from a vaccination or suffer horrible life-altering side-effect, even though that may be our child, we most of us give the shot and hope for the best, knowing that physically putting our child's life literally on the line is what is best for the greatest number of children.

On one hand, yes, it is a balancing act, and depending on all sorts of circumstances, the scales tip in one direction or another for any one person or family, and I can't objectively apply any standards or judgment. On the other hand, I do wonder sometimes that in this land of plenty and conveniences which whould make every area of our life less time consuming, it does seem as if more and more people have less and less time to even spend with their own family, let alone put themselves out there to volunteer at schools or in other ways with kids at risk. It may be a fantasy that every child out there will be affected in a positive way with just a little time each week and some well-placed occasional praise - however, as someone who has a family and who is and has been also heavily involved in professional and volunteer work with at-risk children, I can tell you that I have seen that little bit of "work" make a big differences.

As much as people need to balance their own lives, I also don't want anyone to get discouraged that helping out in any way is just some feel-good exercise that isn't worth sometimes putting your family's needs in the backseat at times. I'd say that the example of stretching our empahty, sympathy, and putting our own needs on hold in order to focus on others, and including our children in the process of doing that - whether it's volunteering at a shelter or teaching our kids to put their own necks on the line by standing up for other kids being bullied or to socially put themselves at risk by even being freindly to Randy" at school or in scouts  - is a good thing from which good things will always come, sometimes along with the hard consequences.

As parents, we put our needs second or third most of the time. But I'm not sure that kids always "see" that; parenting, after all, is our job, right? However, I think that when our kids see us being "mothers of the world" (and I LOVE that phrase by the way, thank you for that), they start to get inklings that doing for others is something more than a "have to because your my kid". I think it brings up all sorts of additional wonderful opportunities to talk about everything from empathy to notions of society to standing up for what is right and calling out what is wrong to teaching our children how to protect themselves and not be naive in extending trust to other people while learning how to give people the chance to change and to not damn them to stereotypes.

Again, I would never indict any one person regarding their choices: I just don't know the whole story. However, in general, I'd say if anyone chose to continue keeping a "Randy" in their sightline and continue to help or try, even to the point of their own family sometimes needing to move outside their own comfort zone, I couldn't fault them, either. I know that's not what you were saying, but the word "fantasy" struck home with me; I've heard it enough in my life as a put down for people who go above and beyond to help others, even when all hope seems lost. There is always hope. :-)

So I'm not really having to think about this just yet.  It's also not something that I really had to deal with as a child (i.e. parents banning us kids from seeing each other). 

I greatly enjoyed reading this post as well as all of the comments.  It shows a lot concerning some women's inner desires to be mothers of the world and to have that fantasy of enlightening a problem child come true. 

It doesn't always work out that way, does it? 

It IS sad and a shame that all children don't immediately and positively react to love and patience. However, you have your own brood to raise and love.  You can be expected to spread yourself only so thin before you start missing spots altogether. 

I'm sorry you feel bad for this decision, but perhaps it is this guilt that should be proof to people that you ARE a good and caring person.  You did what you thought was best for your family.  In my opinion, that's always the right choice.

It's funny - when I was a child there was a kid who fit this description perfectly.

His name really was Randy.

We were seated alphabetically so for three years Randy and I sat next to each other. I thought he was misunderstood - he was certainly undertaught. The teachers spent so much time yelling at him that they rarely took the time to educate him.

I've always been a sucker for the underdog and I think of Randy often. I met several other kids like him through out my scholastic career. I taught them myself when I had time. I gave them my pens when they lost them.

But I didn't hang out with them outside of school - I wasn't willing to risk my life or my parents' respect. And I certainly won't risk my children's.

Harsh, perhaps, but true.

It's harder than anyone not in the situation can possibly realize.

Any, who knows. When they are out of teenage hood in 4 years maybe I will have recovered enough to be able to do more for others. Dunno.All I know now is that I just don't have much as is, and I have to be ok with that. 

THANK you for this comment. xo

I have Randys-a-plenty in my own family. I know the additional pain of knowing it's "blood" as well as frustration of not being able to ever really  turn your back on them. They. Will. Always. Be. There. In every family conversation - or in the maneuvers we as a family make to keep them out of the conversation. It's very, very tiring.

And because I know that once you get to know someone beyond coffee or bookclub niceties, you find out that, yes, everyone has some deep pain they are holding in their own lives and are doing their best with the resources they have.

And because you even cared enough about Randy to write about him and evidence the struggle you have had - are still having - in letting him go, I know you know what that means. And you know because this is not the first time you've tried to reach out to another person and have gone beyond the beyond in doing what you could.

You get to take a break. You really do. You get to put this aside and not explain to anyone.

I'm only offering my own experience with my own Randys - as other are - to confirm that yes, this is complicated. Anyone who is a good parent and sees the difference that good parenting can make will find it impossible on another level to chalk up Randy to either bad genetics or a situation without hope. But again...what to do?

You have every right to put your time and energy where needed most. However, if after stepping away and taking a break, your regret revistis you after a full night and day's rest, well...I was just brainstorming ideas for myslef as well. How to make a "hand off" to someone else - his school, the scout leader, his church. How to do what we're already doing anyway  (scouting, volunteering in school, volunteering in sports) and along with giving the Randys the difficult but firm "No" and boundaries that all children need, it wouldn't take that much more to "refill their tanks" now and again - in passing - with the right kind of positive allo-parenting and positive reinforcement as well: letting them know when I see them making good choices, letting them know that I heard some good news about them, commenting on their hard work - and if the kid isn't fully there yet with working hard or making good choices, then "faking it" for them until they make it. But just recognizing any half-way attempt they make at at good choice or hard work: these are things that kids can control and then do over and over again *and will* with positive reinforcement - even in the form of some small comment from an adult they respect, even if their other life situations feel out of control.

Our kids hear these things all the time, so I think we don't give ourselves the credit due for just how powerful we are as parents and adults. I know I sometimes feel like I have to do Something Big for it to matter: incorporate these children fully into my life. And maybe sometimes the situation will call for it.

But remember, Randy does respect you enough to at least even listen to you telling him he's forbidden from coming to your house. As someone else noted, you've affected this child already in some positive way - in a turnabout way. You have his attention. And since it sounds like he's not totally out of your life anyway (scouting, lives in the neighborhood), well...again, don't sell yourself short. You don't have to do Something Big (our definition); something positive but seemingly inconsequential during those times you will still inevitably cross paths with him will be monumental.

Anyway...I kind of figured that if you were involved with one Randy, you were the kind of person who cared enough to get involved with a lot of Randys and that you had some other things going on. And so, you also come across as someone who ultimately is going to revisit this in some way at some point. I'm the same way, I think...which is why I think this discussion is so important. What to do when we can't do the thing we want to do given unlimited time and emotional resources? We aim big and usually achieve big, and so we discount the other small blessings we can offer. If even a small part of this post and conversation is trying to still justify your decision to yourself (let alone Teh Internets), I don't think you have to. But again, don't sell yourself short - even if you're not doing everything, your small somethings even in passing, even if they feel like throwaways in comparison to what you are doing for your own children,  you will still change this boy's life in a good way.

...has anyone considered that I might have a Randy (times 10) in my own extended family that I am trying to help? (Though in this case it is due to a medical condition, not neglect) You have no idea the resources but physically and mentally that it takes

I'm tired. 

I just honestly don't have much more to give. I barely have anything for my extended family anymore let alone a neighbor. Yes, it breaks my heart for this kid but I tried and I'm full up. I get calls from school on behalf of my relations and have to deal with that situation over and over and over and over and it.will.never.end. 

Because I love my family.

No blame for no one knowing this. I chose to exclude it from the story. But I am getting so many emails and DM's that dude...I want people to know I'm not a bastard uncaring person.

I'm just tired and done. 

I do have regret about Randy but not enough to do anything else about the situation.

Having grown up in a neighborhood with many Randys, what it comes down to is that ultimately a whole lot of people ended up ultimately turning their backs - out of their own real and understandable necessities - but then ended up living with all those Randys in their lives anyway as adults. As neighbors. As employees. As their kids' boyfriends or husbands or fathers of their grandchildren. As the guy who smashed them up in a drunken car accident. Etc. Etc. Etc. It sounds dramatic, but no more dramatic than a 10 year old bringing porn to a house and staying out all night...or late enough.

Because we ultimately exclude Randys from our personal lives but then don't somehow follow up - which it sounds like you're struggling with; it sounds like you aren't 100% settled with your decision -  we still end up with Randy in our lives, even tangentially, by paying for everything and everyone he'll eventually f*ck up royally in the community at large. Or someone's community, anyway.

So my question to myself with all the Randy's in my own life and my children's lives is "If not me, who? If not now, when?" Pass the buck - even in protecting my own kids, which I've done at times - eventually only puts them in Randy's path later on. My kids will get put first only for the moment. When Randy is 15, 25, 30 and still behaving like a monster, can I really just blame it all on volition at that point, or do I still take some blame for not doing whatever I could, either out of selfish self-preservation for the long run, or because I believe strongly that a society that does not take care of the least of its children is a society that is dooming its own future? Really, either reason will work to make me feel pretty piss poor about myself - I'm only protecting my family for the time being and hoping that someone else will solve the problem of this child.

In similar situations I've been in, speaking to the parents may or may not help, but I find that going in with the attitude that Randy is not a bad kid, but rather a kid getting into some bad stuff - just like all kids do, my own included - puts the other parent and I on more equal footing. Whether or not objectively Randy is going beyond the pale, the assumption of "good kid making mistakes" goes a long way. Fake it till you make it kind of thing. At the very least - and at a bare bones preactical level - they may realize that someone is watching and maybe try to hide their own porn stash better from Randy. 

I wouldn't hesitate to put a call in to the school's counselor and let them know that you're concerned and why, but also that you've been hesitant to call, and why. The porn is a Big Deal. The not wanting to go home to such an extent is Not Right. The school may already have some inklings and need some more firepower a la another source to get Randy whatever help he might need at least within the school.

If you ever did want to venture another try at including Randy in your lives even in some minimal way, you could try it in a very limited and restrictive way with a definite go-between: through scouts is an easy way, and maybe just making sure that Randy gets to scouts and scouting events and showing that kind of concern will put him in touch enough with "normal" family to keep that image in his mind throughout his life. I know so many adults who say that just knowing that family life could be something different and that parents could behave around children in positive ways was enough to cause a sort of tension within them that did not allow them to fully embrace a total loss of hope or give in to an identity of "bad kid", but showed them that some of who they were was "bad circumstances". Staying connected through scouting  - and again, doing what you can do to keep him in scouting (paying small fees, donating a uniform for him) - is a good buffer zone. Maybe if the troop is doing badgework or a project, you can find a neutral place (scout leader's house, meet early before meeting at meeting place) to work on projects once a month. All the time continuing to be absolutely firm but kind if Randy asks for time at your house - continue to tell him why you are concerned, why you stopped his coming over. If you ever felt up for another try at him coming to the house, you could work up to it over a looooooonnnnngggggg period of time by him just practicing leaving the scout meeting without giving anyone a hassle. But if not, not.

I can sincerely feel your pain over this decision and am just trying to articulate and empathize with what you might be feeling: I've thought this through myself and ultimately, I too need to keep convincing myself that turning my back completely is the right thing; I feel that need to defend my decision to give up on someone even though I want someone to convince me that I'm justified in doing it.

But...I still get that nagging feeling that, maybe, there is still something else that could be done. That Randy, really, won't just go away even if I move to the middle of nowhere or put a very tall, expensive wall around my house - or a very, tall expensive wall around Randy. Randy will be someone's problem, and because  - most importantly - I believe that each life is connected to every other life, each person's joy my joy, their pain my pain, then 10 yo Randy is still in my backyard with my kids. And so I have to keep finding *some* way to try, if not with this Randy, then with the next one that comes along - albeit, with some long breaks in between to catch my breath.

That last part? LOVE. xo

I think you did what you could. There are a few commenters here who perhaps could have gone a lot further than most of us in reaching out, but 99% of readers and commenters would probably agree that, short of adopting the child, there's not a lot more you can do while you're trying to raise your own.

Each to their own abilities, and to the commenters who said they would have gone a lot further - but you haven't yet. So pause.

He is 10.

I agree...I do not think CPS would intervene here.

However, I do  think you are oversimplifying the problem somewhat. I can almost bet money that you are not even close to this kid and his behavior. Maybe you would have to see him to understand. There is definite emotional neglect going on in his environment. 

If I had not had interaction or knowledge of them I would have brought it up with Randy's parents. As it is...NO. NO WAY.NUH-UH.

It would have been utterly futile and wretched with zero results. 

Oh, yes. I know that. I only have this short time to try and get them to think on their own while exerting some control. I know they have a ways to go as far as letting others influence them too much. 

We have a "randy" too and a "rachel". I can relate to the guilt and the resentment. Guilt for the seemingly calousness of rejecting a neglected child and resentment that their parents are so clueless and expose my children to their carelessness.

But there was a sense of relief for my daughter when i had to tell her she wasn't going to see "Rachel" anymore. I think that's the best indicator when you wonder if you made the right decision.

I too was once a child put out by a neighbor for similar reasons. it was aweful. She really let me have it- yelling and shaming me. I felt aweful for years. I was about 5 too. But I know this woman to this day as my parents are still neighbors and we get along well now considering my scars. But to be honest, I know that she must have been really stressed, as most mother's are with young children, and I accept as an adult, that sometimes people lose it so looking back she was wrong to react so extreme but also right to assert her rules.

I look at my childrens' friends the same way I look at my children. I will let the little bugger know if he/she stepped out of line like a warning or a reminder of the house rules and if they continue to ignore these then I'm clear about letting them know that it's time to go home.

But the next question is do you bring it up the the other parents? Argh.

Now, while I totally support your way of parenting your own kids I have to ask, how old of a kid are we talking about here? I was sneaking out of the house at 10. Also, I believe I had seen some porn and sex books by that age. It didn't kill me any and I think CPS tends to save it for the actual abuse, starvation, violence situations.

Please check out my blog at http://raisingamazingdaughters.wordpress.com

When your kids are little, yes, you can determine who they do and don't see. But, that doesn't last a long time. Sure, you can stop them from playing with Randy but what about all the kids at school who may be just as "wrong" for them but out of your area? I think you've made the right choice but I also suggest you take lots of time to explain to the kids why Randy worries you. There are lots of Randy's out there and what you want to do is to prepare kids to be discriminating about friends on their own. The goal of parenting, after all, is to enable your kids to learn from your judgment and your values and then do the right things without you around. Sounds like you're on the right track.

My oldest kid is 26 and my youngest is 5 so I have been and will be in the parenting game for a long time.  I've seen other Randys. 

Most of them are not "OMG, call CPS!!" situations.  The kid is clothed and fed, goes to school, etc.  He is just not, as best one can tell, CARED FOR in an emotional sense.  He has way too much freedom and too little oversight.  CPS cannot take action on that - they have too many other more dire cases.

So who will save Randy?  Well, hopefully, he will experience people all through his childhood from whom he can learn, role models, people who will influence, guide, and shape him.  Scout leaders, coaches, teachers, school counselors.  And yes, the parents of other children. 

But these people all have various methods and they also all serve a purpose.  Randy has parents who let him run wild and who don't seem to care.  Loralee putting her foot down emphatically (after the softer approach) is one way of teaching him.  This boy needs to be taught that HIS behavior determines the response of others.  That his access to the world is tied in with his behavior.

There is a reverse side to that.  Sure, someone COULD take him in and embrace him and shower him with love and get through.  Or not.  And someone could turn him out and do the tough-love thing and have it utterly fail.  Or not.

No one knows, really.  Sometimes the lessons we learn the most from are the hard ones - like the one Randy recently learned.  It could be the thing that SAVES him.  We don't know.

The situation overall is complex and Loralee MUST think about others besides Randy.  No, that's not quite right - she must put the needs of others, of her own kids, in FRONT of Randy.  And yet in the time she interacted with Randy, and even in the act of turning him out, she is teaching Randy more about what he can and cannot do in this world.  The things his parents should be teaching him but are not. 

We all have to save Randy.  But the HOW is where we will disagree.  Telling Randy NO is one way to particpate in saving him, along with the support and guidance he will get from coaches and teachers and scout leaders, etc.

Mostly, though, Randy will need to rise above his circumstances and save himself.  In the end, we all have to do that.

JustLinda

fabulously imperfect Nothing to See Here... Just Linda ( http://justlinda.net )

Twitter @JustLindaSTL ( http://twitter.com/JustLindaSTL )

Yes, I prefer civil, discussion also, but as long as it isn't hateful (and hers absolutely didn't even come close to being close to that at ALL) I allow it.

ALWAYS.

Jesus, I have addressed health care reform, suicide, infant death, depression, divorce, separation, gastric bypass, Brazilian waxing and the Duggar's. I am not a newbie at all of this as reactive as I can be online at times.

I don't bar passionate debate. And passionate debate does NOT make either party over blown or wrong just for the emotion behind it. Nor is it always wrong to say. There were pretty strong sentiments/insinuations in that comment, and I was strong back. 

Again, that wasn't my primary frustration. I could take the tone, as non-awesome as I found it. It was the other that really annoyed me. Make sure you carefully read the words written if you are going to disagree. 

I think you were right to address it as you did.  When I read that response I did wonder if I had read the same post.  I also think tone has a lot to do with it.  You can disagree without the tone which made it appear more a personal attack than a considered disagreement.   :)

This is not even close to the most sensitive topic I have addressed online. 

Not. Even. Close.

My head did not explode simply because she disagreed with me.

My head exploded because she said things like a peer structure has no influence on children,  put words in my mouth that I called him the spawn of Satan, and over all...seemed to have skimmed my post before commenting because SEVERAL things that she said to me that I was or was not doing were POINT BLANK in contradiction to the words in my post. Like she hadn't even read the dang thing. (I KNOW my kids were part of the problem, for example.) 

I find those things utterly frustrating and am allowed to have that opinion. And state it. I guarantee you, if I re-read it in a day or two? My head would still explode.

And as the author of this post, I felt I had to address it as I had talked to other people. 

And you are right...not allowing dissent is not one of my flaws. And in no way do I feel that I gave that opinion.

She can say I am wrong. 

And?

I have the absolute right to disagree right back.

I can't help if many people agree with me. I certainly don't expect that. If more people came and disagreed I would reply and state my arguments. And if they say things that I SPECIFICALLY STATED THE OPPOSITE OF IN MY POST?

My head will still explode.

Hi, Loralee,

I'm not sure you should be asking for straightforward comments on this issue. It's too sensitive. When you open it up to discussion with your questions at the end of the post, you're inviting opinions. But then you risk having someone NOT say, "You're so right!" -- which is great -- but rather, "You're wrong!" which is only the other side but feels not great. If you want support, with people telling you stories that show you're right, say so. At the very least, don't put questions at the end inviting people to comment if "you're wrong" is going to make your head explode.

It's all just people's opinions. If you ONLY want readers who share your opinions, that's one thing, but in general I don't see you that way. So if your head is exploding, give it a day or two before responding. Otherwise, you'll only be preaching to the choir.

Here's my opinion, by the way. Yes, you have to protect your children. Do that. And then consider, who protects Randy? You're saying, Not me, just because this kid happens to be in my yard. But who, then? What's your next line of action, as if this horrible child were your child, since nobody else seems to care? Pretend for a moment that you're his auntie. Maybe you and your husband going over and yelling at his parents for 15 minutes would be the next line of action, telling them why their kid isn't allowed to come over to your house any more.  If nothing else, at least Randy hears you yelling at the perps.

But I'm not a parent, so I really can't do anything but speculate. You really can't do wrong here, in any case. You already care somewhat about that miserable failure of a human being, because he's still a child and there's a glimmer of hope for him (vs. his miserable parents), and I wonder if that's what's tormenting you.

Honestly, this is why I'm pro-abortion. People who ruin a child's life from the outset should NOT be parents.

~~ Ellen

Listen. You cannot save the world. It really and truly comes down to accepting what you can manage and stating your limits or being an asshole I mean a martyr. And nobody likes or appreciates a martyr.

Do I feel sorry for Randy? Clearly. His environment and circumstance aren't his choice. But so too can be said for many kids but that doesn't mean I have to risk the safety and well-being of my kids. We are raising four kids whose parents (from two separate branches of the family) could not make good choices for themselves or their kids. I don't say that to celebrate myself I say that to emphasize that it is my  job to protect them not only from the bad decisions of others but also at this point to save them from themselves. Randy clearly needs structure and care in his life, he is screaming for it but recognizing that need and having the authority to fill it are two entirely different things. My kids though, I can do what they need and to skirt their needs in the name of martyrdom in the end serves no purpose and benefits nobody.

As for the commenter whose parents worked magic on neighborhood block heads simply by insisting the rules were followed, kudos to them. Wow, I had no idea parenting was so simple as insisting the rules were followed!! How blind we have all been, I never thought of that approach!! /eyeroll Too bad they didn't spend a little more time instilling kindness and manners in their own kids because disagreement is fine, opposing opinions are welcomed but planting your feet firmly in the, ''you're doing it wrong'' camp without even having closely read the post is not only rude and arrogant, it makes your counter-points specious, at best.

thinking of the most vulgar way possible of saying somthing, feel free to come to me. I'll be here for you.

--

Poppy hands out unsolicited beauty and style advice at The Beauty Boomer ( http://www.poppisima.blogspot.com ) when she isn't making fun of celebrities on Mamarazzi ( http://www.mamarazzi.org ).

I am proud of you and think you handled it well!  When I read your post it is easy for me to see the hurt and concern you have for this other boy.  It wasn't an easy decision for you!  I wish some of the others could see that too. But we all read with our own experiences and sometimes that perspective can come off differently than they way it was meant. 

Thanks for sharing this and I think you made a very difficult decision, but the best one for your family. 

Thanks, because my head hurts. :)

And I know that there are many who would probably still be working and trying with Randy.

I just knew it was not right for my family.

God bless those who have more patience and reserves than I do. 

Truly.

....keep "tits-for-the-world" in my brain for use SOMEWHERE. 

;P

On a serious note. Yes, I was totally burned out. I just couldn't do it any more.

And I relate to a lot of it.

I did not do anything really "bad" at ALL as a teenager but I could have. I was VERY needy and desperate for love and affection. My best friends saved me BUT...I did not drag them down, either.

Perhaps this is why I am so passionate about the fact that I tried with this kid but am also able to firmly shut it off when I see such red flags.

Food for thought for myself.

Nothing like some good ole' self-analysis on a Friday night. :)

In my opinion you handled things well.  I have 4 kids, the oldest is 16 and the youngest is 4.  I have had my share of "neglected" neighbor kid issues. Isn't it weird how our kids marvel at them? At first I tried to be the Ghandi of the neighborhood but then I grew up .  Almost without fail the parents of those kids are umm..socially retarded.  I had a mom "forget" to pick up her daughter (4 hours late) from my kids b-day party.  You don't have to hit your head.  I get it.

Excuse me, where in the Good Parenting rule book does it say that mothers are responsible for raising every horror-movie bad seed kid their kids bring home?

Pfft! Randy isn't a puppy, and Loralee doesn't have to keep him. Being all uber-generous, tits-for-the-world is the fastest route to burning out. Where would Loralee's family be then?

---

Poppy hands out unsolicited beauty and style advice at The Beauty Boomer ( http://www.poppisima.blogspot.com ) when she isn't making fun of celebrities on Mamarazzi ( http://www.mamarazzi.org ).

Not in a foul-mouthed, pornographic sense, but as a young teenager I was neglected, unsupervised, and desperate for someone to love me.  I was manipulative, and incapable of a healthy friendship because I was mentally unhealthy.  My best friend's mom finally forbid her to be friends with me.  It broke my heart, but it helped me to see what was wrong with my behavior and what needed to change.  Now, as a mentally healthy person and mother?  I completely understand and support the decision that was made.  Obviously Randy is not old enough for that, but I still think you are making the correct decision.

My parents were open minded about neighbor kids.  Back then every family on my block had at least 4 kids.  But the parents were "like minded".  If it was wrong at my house it was wrong at the neighbors.  Not so much today.  I think that it is my job to do the best for MY kids first.  Thats all.  My kids come first. 

Just...WORD.

I'm certainly not here to flame or bash, either but since you did make such a blunt and strong statement as "You are wrong" I feel that I have the right to be just as blunt and direct back in your direction.
"this kid is seriously a product of his environment and you can not blame him for that. As a matter of fact, you can be the "better person" and try and give him a different envirnment to model his life after. "

I did try. For years I tried. Now, let me ask you something here: I AM THE ONE THAT WILL DETERMINE MY CHILDREN'S ENVIRONMENT. So...why would I allow something that has repeatedly, despite every effort I have made, undermined, damaged and been a negative influence for my family? It is not like Randy EVER improved under what was truly me being kind, patient and firm yet gentle. 

"obviously that rule didn't stick and I don't know who to blame but it certainly isn't that little kids fault"

Sorry, but it is absolutely partially his fault. I am not about to give a 10 year old, no matter WHAT his upbringing a completely free ride on this. It was ALSO the fault of my children. AND I SAID THAT. I cannot trust them to use good judgement around Randy. If I did, I might have had a better feeling about allowing him to stay. So...I will ask you...I cannot send my children away...I have to work on them making better choices. But that in NO WAY means that I should keep the thing that they keep breaking rules for around just because I feel sorry for him. 

"Heres the thing, the fact that the kid has a major standoff in your yard and refused to leave is probably the saddest thing on the planet - basically crying out to the world that is just DOES NOT want to go back to his crappy home.. and what did you do? You turned and completely and entirely shut him out."

Yes. I did. AFTER such a long time of trying and effort. He cannot live with me. I cannot have him thinking that he can stay in my yard that late. That he can be that utterly disrespectful of my rules, my home, my family. (Wait...getting him to go should be easy, right? I just have to FIRMLY tell him he has GOT to go home, right? Yeah. DID.NOT.WORK. After many times of it? I stop giving chances.) I am not a foster home. I cannot be. I tried my best with Randy. 

"Yes, you need to protect your kids, but from another kid? No. You need to teach your kids to be able to stand up for themselves, and also need to learn to stand up for YOUR self."

Are you serious, here? So, you had a great example of a person in a bad situation that was uplifted. And I will utterly agree. I stayed out of so much trouble as a teen because the BFF'S of my life were good influences (and I STILL got into my fair share) BUT do you have ANY idea how many friends/people I watched go down the toilet because of who their friends were. And how it started young? And guess what? It's starting even younger now.  

And I DID STAND UP FOR MYSELF by drawing a line and saying "No matter how bad I feel for my kids he is dragging MY children down with him instead of them lifting him up (for whatever reason) I can't allow that if AT ALL possible." You just have an issue with HOW I stand up for myself.

"There is a fairly simple solution that you can come to if you just look at this rationally and not think of this little pain in the butt as the spawn of satan."

That is YOUR term. I never said that. I said he is very problemed, and that while I feel very bad for him and his situation...that he is a negative influence on my children. Which is true. Please don't put those words in my mouth.

"Have the kid over to your house but before he is allowed to come and play sit him down and tell him like it is. Tell him that he is ONLY allowed to play over here if he follows YOUR rules - and spell each and every one out for him. Tell him that you would love for him to be friends and come over, but you can only allow that if he obeys."

Do you THINK I HAVE NOT DONE THAT? Again, and again, and again. My head is about to explode with frustration here. This was not a lightly made decision. You are treating it like I had the kid over and didn't watch a think he did, tell him anything or just blow him off after one bout of bad behavior. 

"Chances are, this kid is desperate to have some structure in his life (which is why he didnt want to leave) And yes, chances are he might mess up.. and when he does you just ask him to leave and tell him you will have to think about when he can come back over. If he appologized, let him back tomorrow - if not wait until he appologizes."

So...if he keeps apologized and keeps repeating, um...what then? I kept doing that until the porn thing. That? was my straw. Sorry.

Your experience is awesome for that guy and your family. But guess what? That isn't always how things work out. And I think if he had taken you and shown you graphic pornography and other things, your father might, um, have had a problem with it.  

"were told they HAD to behave.. and they did. Dont know that any of them said that my mom/dad changed their lives.. but we were able to be friends and not alienate these kids because of this sad upbringing."

So...when are you going to believe me that um...I TOLD HIM HE HAD TO BEHAVE AND ENFORCED IT? And he broke the rules anyway. Three years of struggle and I can look you in the eye and tell that rosy outcome you have was never going to happen.  

"I just feel like maybe you should question your own kid's behavior if they can not say no to this kid, and try and help out this poor little child."

I'm sorry...I'm not sure you actually read my post. Did you not see where I said I CANNOT TRUST MY CHILDREN EITHER? I KNOW they are at fault here as well. I have to work on them making better choices to withstand peer pressure but guess what? THEY ARE MINE. I cannot put them aside to save the other kid. They HAVE to be my priority.

You don't know me, I don't know you. I am one of the most openly lovey-dovey huggy, nice people on the planet. I am a MILLION times more blunt and rigid here than I ever was with him. I was gentle and FIRM but I tried my guts out with kid. I struggled and toiled and wracked my brain for a very long time.

And it didn't work.

And I made a decision.

A HARD one.

BUT.

The right one.

... once they reach a certain age.

It most certainly DOES matter.  I have seen good kids fall into bad crowds, where they are heavily influenced by risk-takers who lack proper parental oversight and get swept away in that. 

Certainly it seems far-off when you havea 9 or a 10 year old, but it's not THAT far off and friendships seem to solidify in the preteen and early teen years, so a parent much be on the watchout for it before that.

Just because I, as a mother, wish to keep my child from the heavy influence of a misguided child doesn't mean I lack sympathy for that child. 

Everyone has to draw the line some place.

I was married to a man once who was distrustful, manipulative, and controlling. He had GOOD REASONS for it, based upon his sad story of his childhood.  And his parents both had their own sad stories.  But sad stories don't excuse behavior.  They help us understand it, but there is only so much that can be accepted before a line must be drawn - even with a child. 

Sad - absolutely.  It is.

I know in my own case, my daughter was friends with the little girl I referred to earlier from 1st grade through 6th grade.  That is a long time of "chances" and the child continued to be devious and lie and sneak and encouraged my child to break rules.  She might have a sad story that would explain the behavior, but it doesn't excuse it and there is only so much any one should be expected to take. 

I hope this boy (and other children like him) learn and adjusts his own course and goes on to live a produtive life.  My first obligation - primary - is to my own child's success.  That means staying on guard for other children who may well be a poor bet for an influential peer and steering them away from that bad influence.

JustLinda

 fabulously imperfect Nothing to See Here... Just Linda ( http://justlinda.net )

Twitter @JustLindaSTL ( http://twitter.com/JustLindaSTL )

Actually I think you did more then I would have done in that situation.  Here's the bottom line, peer pressure is golden and if you've got a child that doesn't recognize boundries (his fault or not - doesn't matter) your kids are going to pick up on that.  If 'Randy' doesn't follow the rules, your kids are going to wonder why 'they' should follow them if he gets a pass.  

As far as the way you handled the person who disagreed with you, I think it was perfect, you selected the phrases and argued them point by point.  As a blogger you put your opinion out there for everyone to read and not everyone is going to agree with you (although I do think that some argue just to get attention, seen it way too often), however how you handle it has always been key in my book.  Just yesterday I disagreed with a popular blogger and I guess she took it way too personal, basically called me a boogerhead on twitter - not cool.  It's one thing to argue your point, it's another to resort to name calling.  If you had points that everyone agreed with, these forums would be borrrrinngggg.

Anyway, I love you Loralee, you've always handled yourself very professional and you don't feed the trolls.  Love reading your stuff and you always put things out there that make the social networking worth reading.

I'm not here to flame or bash, but it seems my opinion is entirely different than everyone else around here.

I personally think that what you did was wrong. I only can speak from my own personal experience, but I can tell you that from what I know, this kid is seriously a product of his envirnment and you can not blame him for that. As a matter of fact, you can be the "better person" and try and give him a different envirnment to model his life after.

I read that you said that you attempted the rule the he could only play at your house.. Well, it sounds like that rule didn't stick. I'm not sure who's fault that is, but it certainly can't be just that little kid's fault.

Heres the thing, the fact that the kid has a major standoff in your yard and refused to leave is probably the saddest thing on the planet - basically crying out to the world that is just DOES NOT want to go back to his crappy home.. and what did you do? You turned and completely and entirely shut him out.

Yes, you need to protect your kids, but from another kid? No. You need to teach your kids to be able to stand up for themselves, and also need to learn to stand up for YOUR self.

There is a fairly simple solution that you can come to if you just look at this rationally and not think of this little pain in the butt as the spawn of satan. Have the kid over to your house but before he is allowed to come and play sit him down and tell him like it is. Tell him that he is ONLY allowed to play over here if he follows YOUR rules - and spell each and every one out for him. Tell him that you would love for him to be friends and come over, but you can only allow that if he obeys. Chances are, this kid is desperate to have some structure in his life (which is why he didnt want to leave) And yes, chances are he might mess up.. and when he does you just ask him to leave and tell him you will have to think about when he can come back over. If he appologized, let him back tomorrow - if not wait until he appologizes.

Like i said, I know from experience. When I was a kid there was another kid on the street that we all called "Bad Evan" He was dirty, his parents would have drunken fights on the front yard, the kid would swear like a sailor and he loved Bevis and Butthead.. Then my family (the damn brady bunch) wasn't even allowed to watch TV after 6 and never was allowed to watch MTV. This kid would hang around and my mom or dad would hear him swear and acting badly in our front yard. (I was 5 years old and he was 8) My dad approached the kid and said exactly what I suggested you say. He said that he was more than welcome to be our friends but he needed to follow our rules. MOST of the time he did because he wanted to be around us.. other times he didnt and WE (the "good kids") would tell our parents when he was being bad or doing something bad and they would ask him to leave and come back tomorrow to ask for permission. This kid grew up to be a second string olympic skiier and at my dad's funeral told me that my dad was the one who turned his life around.

Then, when my younger sister was the same age there was ANOTHER family on the street just like "bad evan" and we had the same rules and it worked out the same.. The kids would come over but were told they HAD to behave.. and they did. Dont know that any of them said that my mom/dad changed their lives.. but we were able to be friends and not alienate these kids because of this sad upbringing.

I just feel like maybe you should question your own kid's behavior if they can not say no to this kid, and try and help out this poor little child.

Sorry for the SUPER LONG first post.. but this one hit home

I think you should give yourself a break as you did the right thing for your children given your circumstances. 

My heart goes out to Randy, sometimes I wish it was okay to just go up and slap some parents.  The reality is that he is being abused by his parents.  Neglect of this sort, the things he is being exposed to are abusive.  I think we forget about these more nebulous forms of abuse as physical and sexaul abuse (mind you exposing a 10 year old, and lets face it, it probably started musch younger, to pornogaphy is a form of sexual abuse) are so shocking.  Our job as a parent is to give our children the tools to survive in the adult world when they are out of our care.  To teach them right from wrong and the abiltity to function successfully in society, to understand 'community'.  His parents are failing to do this and are setting him up for failure, this is abuse.  The likelihood that he will ever have successful relationships or love later in his life is already lessened.  To know that at 10 is horrific.  Having worked with abused kids I know that the neglect, emotional and physical, can in some cases be just as bad or worse than what we traditionally think of as abuse.  I personally would be ringing child services.

As a parent of 2 boys I would do what you did and have on occasion.  I don't think I am equiped to provide the care the Randy's of the world need which is why we have specific agencies/professionals to do that.  I would love to be able to bring such a child into our family and show him that families can love, but its never that simple.  Sadly, life is simply not a Hallmark movie.

Paint is dry on the oldest two.  My middle one starts high school next year.

Two more to go after that and I'll be done.  And the next day, my social security will kick in (if there is anything left).

JustLinda

 fabulously imperfect Nothing to See Here... Just Linda ( http://justlinda.net )

Twitter @JustLindaSTL ( http://twitter.com/JustLindaSTL )

My eldest has one year left of middle school. Then? HIGH SCHOOL.

SO. NOT. READY.

I feel your pain. 

xo

I'm just, I'm petrified of my kids growing up and dealing with these types of friendship politics. They're already starting, in Kindergarten, and I'm just like...OMG. High school is coming soon. OMGOMGOMG.

- Maria Young

immoralmatriarch.com ( http://immoralmatriarch.com )@maria0305
( http://twitter.com/maria0305 )

There have been girls that were friends with my daughters that I did not like nor trust, for reasons I won't go into.  None of the circumstances were as dire (porn?  really?  showed to your children??  gross) and so my approach was not quite as immediate. 

I went subtle.  I never forbade them from being friends, but I found ways to encourage OTHER friendships to blossom and grow.  With my oldest, she was in middle school and quite strong-willed so I felt like I had to be very careful lest she rebel hard.

With my middle child, she was younger.  And her friend was the same age.  I felt awful and mean for disliking this girl - it wasn't HER fault, she was a product of her environment.  I suspected strongly she was (is) neglected by the standards of my own parenting, but I didn't think it was neglect to the degree that it would ping CPS's radar.

Anyway, even though she was 6, 7, 8 years old while they were friends, I knew she would be a pre-teen and then a teen and THEN the influence would have been strong and my kid is a gullible thing who doesn't read social cues very well.  Fortunately, going into middle school, other friendships DID blossom and man was I relieved.

Sure, it's sad that she was judged by people like me because she too was a victim.  But victims become perpetrators and I wasn't taking chances with my kid becoming her victim. 

Could I be wrong about her?  Maybe.  She might turn out to surprise us all.  I'll eat crow if that happens.  But in the meantime, I have to err on the side of caution.

JustLinda

 fabulously imperfect Nothing to See Here... Just Linda ( http://justlinda.net )

Twitter @JustLindaSTL ( http://twitter.com/JustLindaSTL )

Here is the thing. I DID reach out and shine for Randy and concern for his well being. I told him my rules and he repeatedly broke them and pressured my children to do the same repeatedly.

"All children deserve a few chances"

And I gave them.

Repeatedly.

He ran out of them.

Cruel, but honestly...he was in our lives for about 3 years. Is that not enough of a long run? I feel it is.